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Aspiemumto1

Facilitating self harm?

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Its me again! :unsure: :unsure: I have a dilema and would like to see what peoples thoughts are on this.

 

I know my daughter has been self harming but up until yesterday didnt know what she was using. I had a call from the school as she had told a teacher that she keeps a razor in her bedside drawer. Obviously my imediate reaction was to remove all the razors from the house as a point of safety. However:

 

If I remove all of them she will find something else to use, be it a serated knife from the kitchen or a broken can. I want to support her more than anything but as a mum I cannot bring myself to actively supply her with razors to harm herself. I am happy to supply her with anticeptic wipes to clean her wounds and blades to try and prevent infection but leaving razors lying around is just too much. I cannot give her razors it goes against everything I believe in and what parent would willing allow their child to harm themselves?

 

Should I be supplying razors?

Should I even be supplying anticeptic wipes?

Is it right to remove things like that from the house? Yesterday I even removed a stapler and staples from her room incase she starts stapling herself.

Should I just let her get on with it and stop worrying about it?

Does anyone know where she can safely obtain razors from without dismantling a bic disposable razor?

How is it best to advise her?

 

Sorry if this offends anyone or goes over the boundaries of this forum, just need to know what to do for the best.

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imo supplying anticeptic wipes would mean you approve. i think you need to try and talk and get to the bottom of it, self harming is actully a type of seizure so maybe get to the docs to find out what your options are. self harm is not really in my artillery, but was just posting for suoport. i wish you all well and hope you get this sorted very soon.

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Hi again, this is a difficult topic for many to talk about, but the more we can talk about the better the chances of breaking down the stigmas associated with self harm. Building on previous posts I think it is 'so' important to undersatand that self harm behaviour can mean very different things to differnet individuals. What I am about to advise is related to how I experience self harm and about what I learnt from pupils I taught who talked to me about their experiences. I know this is different from other peoples interpretations and I am fully respectfull of their own experiences, so what follows is one option.

 

My fist point is that a very fine razor blade or a scalpel could be considered the perfect tool for some types of self harm. If someone decides to cut themselves far better in my opinion that the cut is fine ,clean and as such is given the best chance to heal. I think for a lot of self harmers it is all about the initial emotional response to the behaviour whatever it happens to be. I think there can be ritual elements which take place which are about processes, and some of these might be about recycling areas of our body and so 'healing' might be part of the process. I know I used to prefare to gouge and attack my body and the scaring was part of it, I would say the fact your daughter is using razors I would say this is evidence that there is a lot of control in place.

 

Aspiemumto1 I think your second point shows good insight. Your daughter might already be using antiseptic wipes. I am not sure as to how far the two of you have got in talking about the situation. If the conversation has been a bit strained or possibly non existent I think things like antisceptic wipes are an excellent starting point. Whatever the motives for our self harm picking up a blood infection and possible sceptisemia is I guess not part of the thought process. It is therfore important that these sorts of hygeine elements are built into the behaviour.

 

My next point would be that dealing with the underlying issues around the self harm will take time and that central to that process is talking through how people feel, and that includes both of you, and why this behaviour might have come about in the first place. If I was in your shoes I would be doing everything to reduce the guilt levels surrounding your daughters behaviour. I think I would also be happy to supply the razors and wipes on the condition she talks about the issue with me. My imediate concern would be to understand what is happening and by being part of the process you are getting closer in my view to becoming part of the solution. By trying to keep a distance in some ways you will be allowing her to take her behaviour underground and as such will have no idea if they are getting worse, or importantly, not be in a position to offer encouragement and support when they are getting better.

 

In respect to obtaining razors, though I do not use them for this purpose the traditional flat rectangular 'Wilkinson Sword' type blades which are very thin and flexible and can be found in the mens toiletries section of a supermarket or pharmacy are possibly best. It might be easier to throw these into a regular weekly shop than to expect your daughter to get her own. One of the issues might be through guilt she is picking things up such a lady razors, because they provide better cover, and then smashing them to extract the blade, these blades are thick and not as easy to handle to be honest.

 

If you are prepared to get involved in the process I would throw away the blade after use simply because I would want to be able to keep tabs on the behaviour. My personal view is that your daughter might be getting to an emotional state where she feels the need to self harm. A better response is of course to work through the emotions in a constructive way and that is talking through them in a rational way either with someone or eventually in your own mind. As her parent I would be wanting her to come to me if at all possible and talk those emotions through. There might be times where she feels unable to do that and as a result resorts to self harming, either way she will get through the emotional period. The long term aim in my book would be twofold. In the long term as happened in my own life, we need to get a grip on our own emotional states and be very receptive to how they fluctuate and things influence us. The truth in my life I was no where near having that level of maturity at the age your daughter is at now. In the mid term I therfore feel we need to adress such problems from a management perspective. By self harming your daughter is managing her strong emotions but we would all want to see her doing it in a more constructive way as much as is possible.

 

I would suspect that her behaviour like most behaviours is opperating within boundaries. The first taks is to understand those boundaries and then keep it there. I would not be worried about staple guns or knives, remove everything and she can break fingers by repeatedly punching walls, rip her hair out, use her nails, its not the objects which are the concern it is the emotional state of her mind and her need to respond with something. Very fine cuts in a safe area of the body such as the back of her forearms would seem highly prefferable to myself.

 

At the end of the day this is about tough love as is often the case with teenagers. I would try and become involved but there needs to be some very strict boundaries in place for you to do so. There is no way I would tolerate being lied to, having things hidden etc... in return I think you need to be open and non judgemental, be wary of targets and support a process which is about understanding the issues so you can support your daughter in moving forwards in this area of her life. At the end of the day she will need to find the strength from within herslf to deal with this issue, all you can do is support her. It might be the case that at the moment she will make the decision to push you away as she is not ready to confront it yet, this is understandable. If this happens it is not the end of the world she will know where you stand. To be in such a position is difficult and it is not about not worrying about it, we are bound to worry, but you may have to give her space to come to terms with what is on offer.

 

I want to also say that by fronting up in an open way and not being stigmatised by the issue you might get a very surprising response. It might be the case that your daughters behaviour is not that deeply entrenched and is a bit of a cry for help. If faced with the practical realities of is this what you are really doing then she might come out and say no I am not, I am merly playing with the idea, experimenting. The shock factor about what it might lead to may be enough. I am not saying this will be the case but it might be. In such a case ask her to throw away the razors etc... if she has difficulty doing so then she may well be covering up as a defense mechanism, you will have to observe her responses carefully in trying to really understand what is going on.

 

My final point is she told an adult at school that she keeps a razor in her bedside draw, why would she do that if she wasn't looking for help from somewhere?

 

Just a few personal thoughts, other peoples experiences may well lead to a different lines of thought, that is a good thing, there are no wrong and rights when it comes to things such as this.

 

Best Wishes.

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Not wanting to advocate self harm but there is a common theory that says the following

 

Pain releases endorphines and endorphnes make you feel good. I used to do it in my youth when I got really angry. I have a few scars but nothing that stands out.

 

She will always find something to use no matter what you remove from the house and at least a razor usually provides a "clean cut"

Perhaps speak to your daughters friends in confidence to see if she has mentioned anything that could be a possible trigger?

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continuing from the above post, maybe help find a replacement for her realse insted of cutting herself, i must admit when i had my tattoo done it was a somewhat orgasmic experience.

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In response to both Sidious and A-S Warriors excellent comments. I do feel there can be at least two sides to self harm, and it need to be recognised as has been said that pain does release endormorphines and for some people the release of this chemical into our bodies feels like making contact with ourselves. I would not disagree with the phrase 'somewhat orgasmic' which was used because it can be a very strong emotional reaction. What I would say however that it is very short lived, and this is the problem with some self harm behaviours.

 

At times we feel very flat and hollow at an emotional level and we self harm, for a few minutes the emotional realease is massivly strong in comparisson to the starting position and we feel elevated. I have talked to people who say they feel a lift when doing something such as cutting and that by repeating the cycle with each cut they can lift themselves out of very low states of mind. I now in the past I have used self harm to lift myself as a control mechanism away from suicidal states, in such scenarios I think it is possible to view it as the lesser of two evils even in the mind of those who feel repulsed by the behaviour.

 

In supporting Sideous' view I find that I am far less prone to self harm behaviours when I have been exercising regularly. For me this is all part of a more mature approach to managing my issues which involve clinical depression, but they require a lot of self awareness of my mental state and putting in place elements at an early sign of moving in the wrong direction in respect to my own mental health.

 

A-S Warrior is right that finding replacement behaviour is the answer, the problem is I have yet to find anything that creates as big an effect as self harm in its intial stages, as such it has a massive draw on an individual. As a self harmer what we have to do is have a level of honesty about our behaviour and for many of us what follows is a massive amount of guilt. For some I think that is very much the driving force behind their actions. In my own life I tend to stand somewhere in the middle. I like the pain but not the guilt afterwards and so on balance most of the time if I am really disciplined I do not engage in the behaviour. And for me there is a real dilema here.

 

In removing a lot of the self guilt and accepting this was simply part of my make up I gave myself the space to work through my issues without beating myself up. I was able to see what the behaviour was all about, what triggered it and how I might manage it far better. At the same time by removing a lot of the guilt I made my behaviour more acceptable to myself and as such removed some of the brakes, the stigmas which had been in place. I went through a period of a couple of years where I would looking back say my self harm episodes were more frequent. For me though they were open and honest and as such I could start to understand myself a lot better. Over time these episodes then started to decrease substantially.

 

At the end of the day self harm is a very personal thing and there are lots of elements of control at play and so it must be about motives. I think in challenging the behaviour we have to introduce new motives as a driving force for change, for me this was about the fact I had been a self harmer for many years and I was a mature adult in so many other areas of my life, why couldn't I get a mature approach to this issue which had been with me for so long. Aspiemumto1 your daughter will have to find her own motives at some point.

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Thanks for your replies. LancsLad you have certainly given me things to think about. I dont get this quote business so will have to keep referring back to what you said.

 

Although I dont want to supply razor blades, your opinion about keeping my distance in this way may make her behaviour go underground is the very last thing I want to do. Currently we are pretty open about what is going on. We talk about it but I find it hard because I just dont know what to do or say. I will have to get my head around this point. I do feel in some way that by supplying blades shows my approval, like AS Warrior said even supplying wipes may show approval. I dont approve at all, but I do want to support her all the way.

 

Your comment about by supporting her helps me to become part of the solution too is absolutely where I want to be, I want to help her find a solution. When you talk about strict boundaries I will have to have a think about what I am willing to tolerate in her behaviour (the not being lied to is a good one) and your point of throwing the blades away after use is a good way of keeping an eye on things. When you talk about her having control, what do you think she is trying to control?

 

As I said before I think we are open about what is happening, but I also think this behaviour is entrenched, its been going on for a couple of years now. It started off with her pickingher skin, and then progressed to cutting about a year or so ago I think. I dont know what the trigger was or even is, Im not sure my daughter even knows or if she does, she wont tell me. I also value your point about her pushing me away if she is not ready to deal with things but she will at least know the position we are in.

 

Sidious UK, we havent been able to identify any triggers as yet, when we talk about it, she doesnt even know herself it seems, but it might be worth trying to talk to some of her friends, thank you.

 

Sorry if this response is all over the place, I have to keep scrolling up to see what has been said :lol:

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I would definitely agree that your daughter must be experiencing high levels of anxiety to be self harming in this way.

 

Although my initial response would be to say that you must remove all sharp objects which she may use to harm herself, it is likely that she is a bright girl who will 'go underground' so to speak and find ways to hide what she is doing to maintain what for her is an effective but imo quite dangerous release mechanism to cope with the stress.

 

The fact that you know and you are prepared to discuss what she is doing is very helpful. A lot of parents would probably not have an inkling of what their child is doing because it is a very secretive practice which can be likened perhaps to anorexia.

 

Like anorexics, often it is only when the results of the practice become obvious do people notice and additional pressure is then piled on the girl to stop.

 

I would agree with AS that it may be helpful for you to work together to try to find something she can do which is an alternative way to release the pressure she is feeling. Although I have pulled my eyelashes out and overplucked my eyebrows to the point of there being practically nothing there (I almost get away with that one) routinely from the age of 12 (a form of trichotillimania), looking back I can say that the times when I stopped or didn't do it as often was when I was working hard on projects or became fit by doing a lot of walking or working out at the gym. The times when I didn't have a positive alternative release mechanism or I felt 'trapped' were the times when I did it a lot more. Like Lancslad says too, there is also a 'controlled' aspect to it too which I can vouch for. I try to limit what I do and I normally always wear glasses to hide what I have done if I have gone too far and I don't stand too close to people either. It is very secretive and will have an impact on other aspects of your daughter's life as she'll have to consider her clothing and questions from other people if they notice.

 

All the best to find a way through! :)

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Aspiemumto1 in trying to give a response to the good points you raise here goes.

 

I think that one of the real problems to sorting out behaviour like this is that it might simply be a valid reation to an emotional position we reach which acts like a trigger, one fired the behaviour is going to happen. I think what is really difficult is it take a lot of developmental time to pass in our lives before we can really start to get a good understanding of that most complex of life areas our emotions. The simple answer is your daughter might not have the faintest idea as to why she is doing this, and that is so understandable given the complexity of the emotions which must be running through her body.

 

There have been so many times as an adult when I have self harmed, not been able to stop and not understood at the time why I was doing it. As I moved on with my issue I could accept this and say to myself 'don't feel guilty about it, we will work it out some time soon'. What I mean't by this was in a few days I will possibly be able to look back when I am in a better mental state and see that A, B and C happened and that led to reaction D and my response was to self harm. Th long term answer is to focus on A, B and C and self harm might come one step closer to taking care of itself.

 

The question I could ask 'is your daughter mature enough to think in that way', and given a lot of experience of teenagers the answer I suspect would be no, why would she at her age. I could go further and say why did it take me so long to move away from what might be considered a typical teenage issue? The answer is I have a 'developmental' condition called Asperger's which meant my emotional maturity level was somewhat delayed and so I had to wait for a point in my own development where I was able to deal with it. What I can say if I there had been someone with that maturity level alongside me working through these issues I think I would have been able to 'manage' my behaviour in my early twenties untill I could start to get a grip on it.

 

Lyndalou uses two very strong and excellent words in her very good post those of 'trapped' and 'released'. These are emotions I would find very hard to put into words even today but are something we just sense very strongly.

 

Your final question asking 'what is she trying to control' that is so difficult to speculate on. When it comes to myself I like to exert massive control in my life in just about everything I do, in that respect self harm at the levels I experience it at is at a similar level. I know that for some individuals it can go a lot deeper than that. As I said before I think a lot of us are after the intial somewhat artifical lift endomorphines can create. For others though I think there is deep element of pain where individuals feel if anyone is going to hurt me it is going to be me. I have come across a couple of teenagers in my time who I would say were coming from this position. Events have happened in their life which have caused them a lot of pain be it family disintegration or abuse. Their own reaction has been to personalise these events and in effect up the ante to the point of 'I can hurt myself more than anyone else'. In both instances I could see a twisted logic in their actions, they were testing thier own boundaries and demonstrating a coping mechanism to themselves in a lot of ways. I would step back and look at your daughters life over the past few years and is there something there which you might have felt she had coped with, a death of a grandparent or something similar, yet the truth is she has not. At a somewhat lesser level as Lydalou says it might be a case of anxiety management, little things can easily add up to become a lot of background stress and this behaviour is similar to lifting the weight on a pressure cooker to let off a bit of steam. Individuals have a lot of different traits, boys often kick off in an aggressive way to let off steam, girls are less prone to such outbursts. As a result it might not be surprising that a lot of self harm in teenagers is associated with predominantly females. I know for me seeing the blood flowing represents in a very real way the release of anxiety flowing out of my body, its a hard thing to explain this level of release because it is very symbolic in many ways but the sensation is very real.

 

My final though is Sidious raises a good idea about talking with her friends but be very carefull about possibly betraying the trust you have between yourself and your daughter and that she has with her close friends, this is a tread lightly and carefully situation but they might have a massive insight into the reasons. They might not want to share this information and I would respect that. But by highlighting you are aware of things and are concerned they might discreatly let you know when they feel she is feeling vulnerable.

 

No easy answers, best wishes.

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Hi Aspiemumto1,

 

I can totally understand you not wanting to provide razors for your daughter to hurt herself with, I couldn't do that either. Sorry, haven't had time to read all the long responses and don't know if this has been suggested, but a good alternative to cutting is to wear a rubber band around the wrist. In times of anxiety or when tempted to cut, the wearer snaps the band hard against the wrist, giving an alternative and less dangerous but similar-feeling result. Worth a try? In your situation, I would certainly suggest it to my child and would even supply a thick rubber band for the purpose on the proviso that it was used in place of cutting.

 

~ Mel ~

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let her know your there for her and that if she has any problems u will listen. usually trhere is an underlying problem of why she selfharming. I think if she Selfharms make sure she does it safefy and clean for no infection. she may benefit from counselling

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Thanks to all for your responses. I read somewhere today about the elastic band thing and I will definitely be trying that one. We have already gone down the counselling route many times but unfortunately it never helps. You have all given me a lot to think about and I shall have to keep reading your comments as there is a lot to take in. As LancsLad said she may not even know why she is doing it and I do wonder this as well especially as they are questioning Aspergers, I guess all the feelings and emotions she is feeling and not understanding is not helping.

 

Thanks again for your comments on what can be a sensitive subject.

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Yes I can't begin to understand that emotions must be running high in your household. Not sure if this has been mentioned but roughly, what age is your daughter and at what age did she start to self-harm? Can you/she think of any occurence at the time for her to begin this behaviour? Does she feel she's getting the attention she needs? Is she self-harming as a cry for help/parasuicide? You know there is a reason for her doing this and the sooner this reason is understood, the sooner you/she can move on.

 

Is she a victim of bullying/rape? Does she dislike her body? Sorry for all the questions but just trying to empathise

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Isn't she being seen by Clinical Psychology? And are they not giving you any advice?

 

My son has an Anxiety Disorder and OCD and various behaviours that accompany those difficulties. You really do need their expert advice because our initial reaction to things is sometimes completely contrary to clinical advice.

 

There will be a fine line between supporting her anxiety and exposing her to anxiety for her to cope and internalise those coping mechanisms. But it should all be happening with professionals, school, therapy team and parents involved.

 

For example, my son had a spitting tic and it meant he was either spitting in shops, or due to anxiety about not being allowed to spit he would use avoidance tactics so that he did not have to go to those places. ClinPsych recommended that we take some wipes with us and that he was taught a social story about using the wipe to spit into it. And it was agreed by everyone that in some ways this was 'encouraging' the behaviour in some respects - but more importantly it was removing the anxiety about what he would do and how he would cope; it was giving him a socially acceptable way of dealing with this tic; and it was repeatedly telling him via the social story that his spitting was a temporary thing that he would overcome, but until that happened he could use a wipe to collect his spit.

 

And to a large degree it has worked. The spitting has never totally gone, and when it is more anxious it reappears. But by providing the support of the wipes, it removed and addressed some of his anxieties and reduced the behaviour.

 

So it is VERY important that professionals are involved in this. These behaviours are habit forming, they do meet a need for the child, and those on the spectrum are more prone to these rituals. I think I have heard of a kind of 'self harm' kit being made available so that IF they need to do it they do it in the most safe way possible. But you really should not be making decisions about this on your own. And this is a real need that must be met both via education and health.

Edited by Sally44

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And on another of his OCD fears about contamination and germs etc. We again have specific things we do and say [which we and school have been taught and stick to] and that is different depending on the environment. For example, tonight, he wanted me to get something for him because he did not want to touch it and contaminate it. I refused. He had to do it, he got very anxious and upset and almost had a panic attack about it, falling to the floor, screaming and crying etc.

 

But within the home, he attempted it, he did panic, but he achieved his goal and we praised him and reminded him that having done it himself "nothing bad happened". So he conquered his fear on this occasion and he won over his OCD compulsions.

 

We would not attempt to do that out in the community. In that environment he would have a much higher level of support. Because the whole idea is about the child attempting something and being successful. You don't want failure, because failure breeds lack of confidence, low self esteem and more failure. You want everything geared towards the child achieving success.

 

And it is very hard as a parent to try to stay emotionally calm in very emotionally charged situations. You have to give the event 'no importance' otherwise the child can feed off your emotional response. So you try to make your reaction flat - and calm. Not always easy and not always achieved.

 

And although this forum is a place where these things can be discussed and the merits of different approaches talked about; I do not think that you should put together a home based therapy programme based on advice given here.

 

If she is not being seen by ClinPsych I would ask your GP for a referal to a team that works with children with Aspergers.

 

Anxiety is a huge part of being on the spectrum and people deal with that chronic level of anxiety in different ways - or it maybe due to a specific or a number of specific events - or due to difficulties with emotional literacy in herself and others - or due to self awareness and fears around her own difficulties etc. There could be many causes or no cause.

Edited by Sally44

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Sally feel like I would like to pass a few thoughts based on one of your lines in your last posts which I feel on the whole offer some good advice;

 

And although this forum is a place where these things can be discussed and the merits of different approaches talked about; I do not think that you should put together a home based therapy programme based on advice given here.

 

In an ideal world I and some others would not feel a personal responsibility to come onto the forum and make comments on issues such as this. In an ideal world there would be professional services out there for everybody and we would feel things were in hand in other peoples lives.

 

But as this is not an ideal world I think we need to really question who the experts are. I for one know that there are no health professionals out there who have ever taken an interest in my self harm, I have raised this with my GP and he is simply not interested. When it has come up in therapy the professionals have bypassed the subject because it makes them uncomfortable even thought I have always been as open and frank about it as I am today.

 

Because there was no professional help available I decided to find out more so that I was better placed to help myself. When I came across this behaviour personally in schools I sat down with individuals, gave them my time, was not judgemental and listened to each other, we then talked about common feelings and behaviours we shared, and at times we cried. When heads of year became aware of this some passed on students to 'have a quiet word', I believe in all cases those individuals made significant progress in their own lives, I know they helped me. I came across self harm behaviour again as a foster carer and this taught me to explore how these behaviours can develop as a result af real trauma in a young persons life and how we ccould start to deconstruct their behaviour patterns to imporve quality of life, again I will say the first point of call health professionals associated with these two children were not that interested.

 

Because this is part of my life I have spent time on specialist self harm forums to explore my own issues and have talkes to individulas there as I do on here. This has given me an understanding that there is no one fixed way in which we self harm but that it manifests itself in many different forms. Having said that there are some reasonably typical behavioural patterns in the self harm community and as such when we hear of examples in other peoples lives I think these might provide solid starting points in exploring the individulas behaviour. This might not be a perfect starting point but I feel it is as good as any.

 

I raise these points to say 'who are the experts'. I could sit down and try to add up all the time I have spent thinking about and having to deal with this issue, talking to other self harmers, reading and commenting on specialist forums, and researching into the issue in books and articles, at the end of the day how would this compare to a professional expert. I am going to be the first to admit that there will be a few professionals out there who deal with this type of issue 5 days a week for the vast majority of their time.I would agree they are in a qualified position, if they were a self harmer at one point in their own lives even more so! What I will say is how much experience in hours will there be in respect to a ClinPsych, a GP or a team working with children with Asperger's? A lot of people will claim they know what they are talking about as a professional defense mechanism, and this might even be going on a two day course and could equate to 8 hours of information, does this make them therefore an expert.

 

In an ideal world I think we would have a broader deffinition on what constitutes an expert, and I think this should expand beyond individuals who are paid for their comments. Unfortunatly we live in a very deferential 'middle class' society which I believe when it comes to issues such as this and others such as alcohol and drug abuse, prostitution and domestic violence, gravitates towards professional expert opinion as a means of distancing itself from the realities of life which it finds uncomfortable. In doing so it creates a false belief that there is a lot of support available out there when simply there is not. There is a very good reason for this and that is on the whole the 'professional' medical sector shares these middle class values and quite likes the deferential nature of our society and so choose to become experts in areas which are far easier than the ones I have mentioned.

 

I have come across experts in these type of areas but I have to say that when I have it has been a result of them seeing children who have some 'very severe' issues. I am gratefull that these individuals have directed their careers into these type of areas because there are no financial rewards and little chance for promotion for them and I do respect them for that when I look elsewhere in the medical profession and see what is on offer for them. I will also say they have all been female!

 

Sally you are right to raise the point about what value does advice have, before making personal judgements related to the scenario we are facing. I do feel we need to look at the value in context and that has to be about understanding how much support is there available at a professional level. I would go one stage further and that is I think we do need to question the validity of any advice and where it comes from and how much experience is backing it up, this goes for everybody, be they professionals, forum posters or friends. What I will say without a doubt that the most damaging and ill informed advice I have ever recieved in my life has always come from professional sources!

 

This is one of many areas for which there is a massive professional void out there. Sally you do so much good work on this forum on a daily basis filling in similar voids in other areas. I respect your opinion as always but it is difficult. The fact that Aspiemumto1 comes to the forum with these questions in my mind either shows there is very little in the way of professional help out there, or that she feels she will get first hand experiences of self harm from the forum community so she might better understand her daughters behaviour. For me both reasons are valid and as such I feel obliged to offer my thoughts. As you say the beauty in other peoples opinions is you can either take them or leave them ans the decision is ultimatly Aspiemumto1's to make.

 

Just a few more thoughts.

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Sally feel like I would like to pass a few thoughts based on one of your lines in your last posts which I feel on the whole offer some good advice;

 

And although this forum is a place where these things can be discussed and the merits of different approaches talked about; I do not think that you should put together a home based therapy programme based on advice given here.

 

In an ideal world I and some others would not feel a personal responsibility to come onto the forum and make comments on issues such as this. In an ideal world there would be professional services out there for everybody and we would feel things were in hand in other peoples lives.

 

But as this is not an ideal world I think we need to really question who the experts are. I for one know that there are no health professionals out there who have ever taken an interest in my self harm, I have raised this with my GP and he is simply not interested. When it has come up in therapy the professionals have bypassed the subject because it makes them uncomfortable even thought I have always been as open and frank about it as I am today.

 

Because there was no professional help available I decided to find out more so that I was better placed to help myself. When I came across this behaviour personally in schools I sat down with individuals, gave them my time, was not judgemental and listened to each other, we then talked about common feelings and behaviours we shared, and at times we cried. When heads of year became aware of this some passed on students to 'have a quiet word', I believe in all cases those individuals made significant progress in their own lives, I know they helped me. I came across self harm behaviour again as a foster carer and this taught me to explore how these behaviours can develop as a result af real trauma in a young persons life and how we ccould start to deconstruct their behaviour patterns to imporve quality of life, again I will say the first point of call health professionals associated with these two children were not that interested.

 

Because this is part of my life I have spent time on specialist self harm forums to explore my own issues and have talkes to individulas there as I do on here. This has given me an understanding that there is no one fixed way in which we self harm but that it manifests itself in many different forms. Having said that there are some reasonably typical behavioural patterns in the self harm community and as such when we hear of examples in other peoples lives I think these might provide solid starting points in exploring the individulas behaviour. This might not be a perfect starting point but I feel it is as good as any.

 

I raise these points to say 'who are the experts'. I could sit down and try to add up all the time I have spent thinking about and having to deal with this issue, talking to other self harmers, reading and commenting on specialist forums, and researching into the issue in books and articles, at the end of the day how would this compare to a professional expert. I am going to be the first to admit that there will be a few professionals out there who deal with this type of issue 5 days a week for the vast majority of their time.I would agree they are in a qualified position, if they were a self harmer at one point in their own lives even more so! What I will say is how much experience in hours will there be in respect to a ClinPsych, a GP or a team working with children with Asperger's? A lot of people will claim they know what they are talking about as a professional defense mechanism, and this might even be going on a two day course and could equate to 8 hours of information, does this make them therefore an expert.

 

In an ideal world I think we would have a broader deffinition on what constitutes an expert, and I think this should expand beyond individuals who are paid for their comments. Unfortunatly we live in a very deferential 'middle class' society which I believe when it comes to issues such as this and others such as alcohol and drug abuse, prostitution and domestic violence, gravitates towards professional expert opinion as a means of distancing itself from the realities of life which it finds uncomfortable. In doing so it creates a false belief that there is a lot of support available out there when simply there is not. There is a very good reason for this and that is on the whole the 'professional' medical sector shares these middle class values and quite likes the deferential nature of our society and so choose to become experts in areas which are far easier than the ones I have mentioned.

 

I have come across experts in these type of areas but I have to say that when I have it has been a result of them seeing children who have some 'very severe' issues. I am gratefull that these individuals have directed their careers into these type of areas because there are no financial rewards and little chance for promotion for them and I do respect them for that when I look elsewhere in the medical profession and see what is on offer for them. I will also say they have all been female!

 

Sally you are right to raise the point about what value does advice have, before making personal judgements related to the scenario we are facing. I do feel we need to look at the value in context and that has to be about understanding how much support is there available at a professional level. I would go one stage further and that is I think we do need to question the validity of any advice and where it comes from and how much experience is backing it up, this goes for everybody, be they professionals, forum posters or friends. What I will say without a doubt that the most damaging and ill informed advice I have ever recieved in my life has always come from professional sources!

 

This is one of many areas for which there is a massive professional void out there. Sally you do so much good work on this forum on a daily basis filling in similar voids in other areas. I respect your opinion as always but it is difficult. The fact that Aspiemumto1 comes to the forum with these questions in my mind either shows there is very little in the way of professional help out there, or that she feels she will get first hand experiences of self harm from the forum community so she might better understand her daughters behaviour. For me both reasons are valid and as such I feel obliged to offer my thoughts. As you say the beauty in other peoples opinions is you can either take them or leave them ans the decision is ultimatly Aspiemumto1's to make.

 

Just a few more thoughts.

 

I think you have hit the nail on the head really. I would never attempt to deal with this on my own as it beyond me if I am honest. My daughter is under the care of Child and Adolescent Mental Health Services. We have been on the waiting list since February for a neurodevelopmental check for Aspergers and the same amount of time for a support worker. We have an appointment with the support worker tomorrow.

 

I have never felt so alone and out of my depth in facing the issues we have as a family. I have wracked my brains over and over again as to why this may be happening and what the triggers may be. I have had countless discussions with my daughter about why this may be happening and she does not know herself. I have been off work since January as I was finding it difficult to cope with life in general.

 

The professionals are there to do a job as in reaching a diagnosis, I dont know believe they know how or have the resources to support people and that is why there are forums like this. I did come onto this forum to gain some kind of support and I was hit instantly by how many people are in the same position - fighting - for a diagnosis, against their frustrations and anger. I was amazed by how many kids with AS or ASD have issues with anger and meltdowns. Finally I didnt feel quite so alone, and yes, who better to ask for advice than those who have been or are going through the same thing because I dont know who to ask anymore.

 

CAMHS are aware of the self harming, as is the school, the GP, and so are some of my friends. There is no Clinical Psy offered or any other means of support. CAMHS have offered one to one and behavioural protection therapy, but we are still waiting.

 

I hope it doesnt sound like I am having a go at anyone here, because I respect everyone has a different opinion and it is those opinions that I am seeking so that I can make my own decisions. I would never base my decision on what someone else has said, but quite often something may be mentioned that you didnt consider or think about, or may be thought about in a different way. So thank you all for your thoughts, they are valid to me, no matter what there content. Ive shared the above with you so you are aware that I have gone through the right channels with my daughter, Im just not getting anywhere lol.

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I didnt mean to copy all of that!! Still cant get the hang of this quote business :partytime:

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Aspiemumto1, I think there are many reasons why we get so frustrated and at times we can feel so helpless. I think a lot of this is down to experience levels and when we have to make decisions there is a very difficult balancing act to try and get things right in reaching solutions.

 

On one level of the experience debate are personal life expereinces. This is the sort of stuff we deal with day in day out and we are very close to. I think we need to understand that these experiences are so important and valid. There is no one out there who will understand your daughter better than you, up to the point she gains a level of maturity where her self understanding will be equal and then will move past your own. At this point we can start too loosen some of the emotional reigns and take comfort in the fact our children are developing into mature and responsible adults, for most of the time. Please do not underestimate the value of this personal experience level.

 

At another level there is what I would ascribe professional knowledge. There is great value in knowledge and it has an important role to play in guiding our decisions. I think the problem with knowledge is how people go about owning it and how this affects their perceptions of their own value. Personally I am a pretty intelligent person I have a number of degrees up to postgraduate level, though I am the first to admit academic intelligence is but one area in which we could or importantly should measure ourselves in. As such i am quite 'comfortable' reading research papers, confrenece papers etc around any subject I am interested in. When I recieved a diagnosis for AS for example was to try and find books at a level psychologists and psychotherapists might have on a reading list as part of their training. I have to be honest here and say a lot of people in the population would not be 'comfortable' with approaching a subject from this position, and its funny but when I present to health professionals a lot of them are not 'comfortable' with me, I wonder why? In an ideal world I believe that knowledge should not be an exclusive right for professionals and I know people like Sally for example must be a right pain in the ###### for many professionals because she along with a few other mums on the forum have turned themselves into 'real experts' whilst trying to help their own kids, and believe me I have massive respect for what they have done and are doing though we might disagree at times over some things.

 

I think the problem with so many issues which come up on this forum is the distance which there is between these two levels or positions, the personal and professional one. At an individual level we can get so locked into dealing with our daily lives it is very hard to see things from another perspective and get a bit of distance to think things through. At the other side of the equation professionals do not have the time and resources to focus on individual cases to get the issue firstly under control and then resolved in a permanment way. Often issues require a multi agency approach and even if one professional wants to and is able to commit to an individual case getting the others on board is virtually impossible. I think the problem is that that a lot of parents can see that if they could things might work but it never seems to come together. I would like to say here that there should be a level of honesty in the system which simply is not there. As a foster career I have been involved in particular with two very difficult cases which I can not really go into for obvious reasons. Believe me when I say even at these sorts of levels trying to get three, four or five different agencies together was impossible yet the cases absoloutly justified it on every level. The point here is we need to have realistic expectations of what is available and the level of professional expertise which is around. There are some really good professionals out there but for a lot of the time they are tied up working with some really difficult cases and thats the truth.

 

I think in many ways I have personally been highly fortunate in dealing with issues because I can stand in an alternative place. I will be the first to admit that when it comes to dealing with personal things in my life it has been a difficult journey because I am so close to them, too close at times. The reason I have made so much progress is through helping others. As a teacher, coach and foster career I have had a lot of contact with kids and as such you get multiple opportunities to deal with an issue such as self harm, and each time you learn a little bit more and it all goes into the mix called personal experience. When you work like this you are never as close as I would be for example with my own son, but you are close enought to 'start' to get into the daily details of things and you can get a good sense for what 'might' be happening. Because of the issues in my own life I know that the 'real' experts are the kids themselves and often the close family if they are astute, and I would never forget that, for that reason the most important tool we have at our disposal are the two things on the side of our head and we simply have to learn 'listen' if we are to be of use in supporting people to understand and work through their own problems.

 

There have been times when I have stood in this position and the situation has needed the support of professionals who can have a very good insight into what 'might' be happening, often they can have good advice. What I must say is I have yet to find the professional who has the time to get to see what is 'really' happening, rather they are too good at dragging people away from the realities of the context and into thier consulting rooms and often they have no real interest because the connection with reality is not there.

 

So what is the right approach. I think for me the answer was to get as much knowledge as we are capable of taking on board in an ordered way. There can come a point of overload and that is where we need to say to ourselves 'that's as much as I know for now'. We can sound out if there is any professional help available. In this area I have a golden rule, 'yes' might mean yes, 'maybee, possibly, we will look into it, I will get back to you etc...' all mean no! I have been wrong on a very few occassions but the golden rule is pretty spot on most of the time. At that point we need to make a decision and take action. In my experience issues at the level of your daughter simply do not go away, and if left alone they more often than not get more difficult to work through. If we can accept that then in so many ways as parents we have nothing to loose. If we have two ideas about what might work try one and see if it does, simple as that. I think a lot of parents are catious because they think there is something better which might come along, a therapist in shiny armour, there might but I doubt it. And even if they did come along what makes them more of an expert than you are for example.

 

And this is has been my attitude, I do not consider myself to be an expert, even though I might have had a few badges such as 'experienced foster career', I know who the experts are and where the answers will need to be found, and likewise that is in the majority of cases not the professionals either. In this one Aspiemumto1 I strongly feel the experts are you and your daughter and I have every confidence that you will be able to work through this issue and many more besides. You need to find a bit of belief, that might come from gaining a bit more knowledge as a confidence boost and thinking things through and coming up with your own strategy tailored to the needs of your child as you see it. Once you think you know what is the right thing to do, and trust your gut instincts on this one, then you simply have to take the first steps in working through this thing together. As soon as you take those steps a lot of the frustration might well vanish because you will know Aspiemumto1 you are doing your best! Your daughter can ask no more of you nor should she, and importantly nor can you ask anymore than ourselves. In my personal experience when we try things they either work or they don't, when they don't we learn from the experience and will always come up with another idea and so we try again.

 

As a last thought, we could fill the world with all the experts we could muster. We could fill the libaries and the internet with all the acumilated knowledge of generations. But in many difficult situations in life we still come back to the basic truth and that is when times are hard we need our mums. The reality might be at the moment on this issue you don't know the answers yet, but as long as you have each other then thats enough, and try and find comfort in that thought Aspiemumto1.

 

Best wishes.

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I do totally understand what you are saying as "mum".

Most of us have been there. No access to professional help or support.

Sometimes it takes a long time of really having to pin people and professionals down to do what is their job.

 

And I know that in the meantime you just have to deal with it.

 

And I feel somewhat better having read your reply, that you are going to read all the advice, and then come to some conclusion yourself. Because it would be awful to make a decision on advice given, and then find it was totally the wrong decision to have made. And these are not easy issues we are dealing with and none of us have had medical training [although many of us probably feel we could sit a degree after years of trawling through the system].

 

What I would advise is that you put your concerns, and what is happening in writing. That you always address it to the relevent professional and ask them to see, assess and make recommendations on how these needs should be met in home/school. It is MUCH harder to be refused if you have requested it in writing, because there is then a paper trail of responsibility. The NHS is VERY concerned about possible law suits, so if they are told that they have a 'duty of care' and that you are concerned that she could seriously injure herself etc, they are going to look at that from the viewpoint "if we do nothing could she sue for negligence." Awful that sometimes it comes to this, but that is just how it is.

 

I wasn't being judgemental on you. I was just aware of what my instincts had been around some of my son's difficulties and how the professional advice had sometimes been different and sometimes been very uncomfortable to hear or put into effect.

 

And I totally understand what you are saying Lancslad, because you too have just had to get on with it with the children you have come across.

 

I suppose my advice would be to look at areas of her life that are causing acute or chronic levels of anxiety such as in school, friendships etc how is she coping on a daily basis.

 

Look at ways of relaxing [which is also something the OT could/should be doing]. ClinPsych should come up with a social story type of thing for you and her to read.

 

And it maybe that you do have something like a 'kit' that you keep and that she asks you for when she needs it. But that is going to require you to be quite matter of fact about it and not 'deny' her access to it, and maybe just offer an alternative at the time ie. "shall we go for a walk/jog/relax exercises first to see if that helps." But it maybe she cannot defer the need. And TBH, I would hate to mention something, you try it, and she really hurts herself.

 

So please do write to ClinPsych, and maybe see if CAHMS can suggest some medication to see IF that makes any difference. I know another family whose daughter is taking Prozac, and her self harming has almost ceased, and she was doing very dangerous things previously.

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I forgot to ask how old your daughter is?

 

Do you have any idea how long it will be before they decide if she will receive a diagnosis?

 

IF you ask the Local Authority to carry out a Statutory Assessment towards a Statement, that would require everyone involved to write a report. But you may need to project manage it and specifically make sure she does have referals to relevent professionals in the pipeline and write to them all to let them know that your have requested an assessment towards a Statement and that they need to identify each and every of her needs, and quantify and specify how those needs will be met in terms of hours of support, staffing arrangements, therapy input, school environment as per the SEN Code of Practice and the Education Act.

 

Send a letter to the LA asking them to contact [and list all those who have had or who will have contact with her], and again request that they are contacted so that all her needs are met and provision is quantified and specified to meet each of those needs.

 

The Assessment process to the Proposed Statement takes 26 weeks. You may have a diagnosis by then and you may have alot more information from other professionals.

 

The Proposed Statement should be amended, and then finalised. If you are unhappy about any aspect of the Statement you must appeal. Appeals usually take 4-6 months. So again, you have further time to gather more evidence and maybe further diagnoses.

 

In this way you may get professionals to be more specific. If they do not, you can ask them to attend the Tribunal as expert witnesses. If they refuse you can ask the Special Educational Needs Tribunal service to Supena them so that the Panel can ask them questions on the day.

 

And just as important is for you to think about the current school placement and if it is working.

 

What kind of school is she currently at?

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You can talk to her about other ways to handle the specific feelings that lead to self-harm. One thing that is often suggested by therapists is having an elastic band or hair bobble on the wrist, and "pinging" it when those feelings occur. There is brief pain, but it is not harmful, and it can help. It's also something that can be done in front of other people, which makes it less hidden, and means that those in the know can try to talk to the person who wants to self harm when they see them "ping" (not tell them to stop, but try to calm them down and remove the trigger where possible).

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Personally I think that self harm, eating disorders, OCD are all different elements of the same condition - it just surfaces in different ways. It is all about compulsions and obsessions and fears.

 

I may try the elastic band thing on my son for his OCD. You really would not believe how often he washes his hands/himself and changes his clothes and uses up all the towels in the house and gets everywhere covered in water and gets so upset and mad at himself and wants to hurt himself because he cann't stop. It is driving us mad as well as him because ALL OUR TIME seems to be taken up with dealing with him and the lack of clothes/towels etc.

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Sally I agree with you that for many people these types of conditions are very inter related and can be recurent themes in our lives

 

Personally in the past two years I felt I was doing well with my own self harm behaviours. This period of my life has been dominated with serious levels of exercise and conected with that very disciplined eating. I am seeing my Primary Care Mental Health Team next Wednesday, it has taken 16 months to get an appointment, with the view to seeking help for what I now consider to be an eating disorder. To be honest the behaviour just developed little by little week by week untill my partner said to me 'this has got out of control' in fact the opposite was true it had got into 'total control' by using some very strict rules which had become ritualistic. By deconstructing my behaviour I can easily see it follows exactly the same behavioural processes as all my other self harm behavioiur patterns. As a result I am starting to get a grips with it by using techniques which have worked previously by identifying the triggers and when they are likely to occur. This is very difficult work and takes a real effort on my part. I think the real problem is when our behaviours get beyond our abilities to comprehend them and therefore deconstruct them and develop alternative strategies to insert into our daily thought and response processes. I know in my own life this happened and there was little I could do untill I had the skills to do something about it, and these came in my late twenties.

 

I have to say that my initial and personally valid reaction to the elastic band idea was no chance, because the levels of pain and control would simply not be comensurate with my established levels. I am not saying strategies such as an elastic band will not work with some individuals. If this does or does not work I susgest it might give a rough indication as to how deep the self harm/compulsive behaviours have become.

 

I guess in some ways the problems I might be facing next week will all be about the allocation of badges. If these are elements of the same condition then the condition is simply 'me' this is how I am, my question will be any chance of a bit of help. I can see that as I do not fit into a sterotypical cliche of how an individual with an eating disorder might present, then getting some support might be very difficult. To be honest I have resigned myself to them saying 'see how you get on'.

 

Sally to be honest I could easily accept this sort of response, and even the fact that there may be limited resources and I am not entitled to any, if I knew those resources were being directd to the children such as your son or Aspiemumto1's daughter. The best approach in my mind is to deal with these issues before they develop to a stage where they get so deep that it will take a massive amount of effort to sort out.

 

The really frustrating thing for me is that on Wednesday I will not be able to take my computer on which is recorded all my meals and their exact nutritional break down for the past two years together with weight and body analysis. Nor can I take my fridge, freezer and food cupbords and show how they are laid out. Even better would be to have someone see me prepare for a training session and observe the rituals. Even better still they could follow me cycling or running and observe when I allow and importantly when I do not allow myself to eat or drink, if they did they might start to get it. Instead I will I suspect be in a little box of a room, stressed up about getting there in the first place and the pressure is all on me to try and communicate my problem to them, that is if they will even be listening. In a similar way they would only need to spend a half day in your home Sally and they would I suspect start to really get it in respect to your son's behaviours. Would this solve problems I am not to sure but I know if someone at least paid a bit of genuine interest from the professional sector it would give me a lot more strength in the battle with my own issues on a daily basis.

 

Just a few thoughts, mini rant over.

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Just thought I would update you all as your thoughts have been very helpful to me. I purposefully kept away from the forum for a few days to give me time to digest what you all had said.

 

This is what I have decided to do. After much soul searching I decided that I would make up some "kits" for my daughter. I initially thought I would include razors in this pack but that she had to ask me for a pack when she needed it so that I could keep a tab on how often she was harming. However, she is not happy with asking me for the kits because she is worried about upsetting me. So as I was reluctant to supply blades in the first place, I have decided to make up sterile kits for her to clean her arm and razors, along with plasters and anything else I can think of that she might need. I am going to have to leave her to obtain the razors. I understand now how private this activity is, and maybe I was expecting too much by hoping she would ask me for a kit when she needed it.

 

Thank you also for the suggestions about approaching the LEA. I am not sure I can now, she is 16 and has just done her GCSEs and is due to leave school very soon. Unfortunately her possible diagnosis of Asperger's has come too late to support her in school.

 

I also suggested the rubber band thing, but my daughter had already tried this but it did not help.

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Aspiemumto1, have a lot of respect for you for stepping back from the situation and drawing your own conclusions and making a series of decisions about what you are prepared to do and what you are not prepared to do.

 

By having this level of respect for yourself and your feelings on the issue I hope your daughter can generate in the same way a level of respect for herself and her own feelings. I feel that solving this issue is all about self awareness and honesty. As parents we can set examples and hope that our children respond to those examples by mirroring our attitudes and behaviour.

 

When we respect each other and are prepared to talk about things in an open way then there is always a lot of hope for the future. Solutions are generated from beliefs and actions and you are demonstrating both.

 

Best wishes as always.

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There are a couple of suggestions I have.

 

Firstly think about what your daughter may do now that she has sat her GCSE's. Is she going to remain in school - or go to college.

 

A Statement of SEN covers a child in school [not college], and there are some ASD specific schools [independent mainly], that go up to age 19. I think the school my son goes to even has a young adult centre.

 

I would recommend that you speak with someone at www.ipsea.org.uk [telephone or email service], and www.nas.org.uk [again I think they have telephone and email service], as well as www.mind.org.uk who should have some more specific advice.

 

Your daughter is at an age where she could become inbetween children/adults services. And I think adult services are even thinner than childrens'.

 

Also phone your local childrens' hospital and ask to speak to someone in the childrens clinical psychology department. Ask them if they have a ClinPsych or team that works specifically with children/teenagers with Aspergers. If they do ask your GP for a referal to them.

 

Health often tries to fob parents off by saying that it is more difficult to treat those on the spectrum with these mental health issues. But they do do it. You just need to really push for it to happen and say that you want your daughter and the whole family to receive support and counselling. As your daughter has attended a mainstream school, they cannot say that cognitively she would not understand the sessions.

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