A-S warrior Report post Posted June 1, 2012 (edited) hi, the forums resident loud mouth is back again. thankyou for everyone who replyed on my first episode in the series (getting that girl) we had some females posting on it too which was awsome, it was great too have some female imput, no one is more qualified on how to tell you what a girl wants than a girl right? in this episode im going to try and help you master a skill im very good at, and that is camouflaging your aspergers. keep in mind this is from my perspective and a personal story and its not necessairly going to wash with you. going back to 2002 when i moved away to a new house, i realised how vunrable i was to the outside world. in my old house i never went out, only saw friends that were at school, and played with thomas the tank toys until i was 12. when 2002 came and we moved i moved to a very street wise neighboorhood, and i saw a new world that i wanted to be in, when i went out to try and make friends i was picked on badly, my aspergers was very exposed and every kid within a mile radius seemed to be able to pick up on it, i had a really hard time of it. i had gone from a little fish swimming around in a little bowl, and all of a sudden i was thrown into the ocean, an ocean of sharks, and those sharks were mine to deal with. i knew i had to change, i had to to be accepted i craved the ability to function like the other kids did, i felt like a complete outsider and a reject, i wasnt wanted at all, exept for a piece of meat to be toyed with, but i had to be included in the group. so how do you win against your enemies? you learn to become your enemies. i would literally look out of my window and stalk them, learn there habits, learn how they tick, learn how they talk to each other, learn there body language, learn everything and try to literally copy and paste that onto my own self. i wasnt actully changing who i was, more enhancing who i was. i did this all through high school, i would watch and observe all the popular students, i was basically very terminator like, taking on board all infomation from those pepole taking out the bits and pieces and forming that into my own caracter, i would watch from a distance obviously. eventully i would learn to utilise these traits and everything would become second nature. it took many many years of learning, watching, practising in front of my mirror, and thinking. again, i wasnt changing who i was, i was taking out pepoles best bits and using that along with my own little touch. i would spend time in my day immagioning the ideal version of myself, and thinking to myself, if i was like that i would be unstoppable. to be a normal person like everybody else became an obbession for me, almost like a new hobby. it wasnt so much of one that it consumed me and it was all i thought about, but it was something i dreamed of. most kids wanted money, and back then nokia 3210,s and new shoes etc etc. all i wanted was to be accepted and liked. eventully everything became easier, i was adapting and was being accepted, and by 2005, i was in the most popular group in school. i then associated this practise of mimicking pepole, into camouflaging my aspergers, in a group. at the end of the day it all comes down to be willing to learn and teach yourself. hard work does pay off, its easy to rest on your laurels, but it takes real courage and hard work to fight for what you want, and it doesnt come to you overnight that mentallity, it comes just from being willing to be open to an idea, and being willing to learn, and if you decide to climb a montain, and you want to reach the top, but with your greatest effort only make it a quater of the way up, then you should be damn proud of yourself, you put in your best effort and that is something you should be very proud of yourself for. my dream was pretty small in the grand scheme of things but to me, it ment everything. right, thats the end of my short life story so....... over to A-S warriors pointers, watch groups of pepole (but dont stair) and learn how they work, and what makes them tick. think in a quiet place in your mindseye, how you would cope or deal with a social situation, rember everything your picking up from other pepole and find the most suitable awnser for that solution, your almost scripting your day in your head. ask a close trusted friend or familly member to try role play with you, act like your in a socially awkward situation and try to find a way to deal with said situation, maybe even practice some of the things your thinking about, or things you have seen from other pepole. belive it or not, watching soaps is very good practice, and you might pick up a trick or too. dont act so like other pepole your completely copying those pepole, rember your only coping and pasting the bits you want onto yourself. rember again your only enhancing yourself, not changing yourself. and also rember this is something that im still working on myself, im quite good at it, but i could still be better. im not sure if ive done this topic justice, and if this sounds airtight or not, but im sure corrosponding posts should thicken it up if ive missed anything. thankyou for reading everybody, i apologise if i sound like a lunitic in places, im only trying to help Edited June 1, 2012 by A-S warrior Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LancsLad Report post Posted June 2, 2012 (edited) A-S Warrior good post and here are my thoughts for what they are worth. I must admit I share a lot of your sentiments but will phrase them in a slightly different way. I personally see this as developing the skills to be something akin to a 'Camelion'. In other words developing the ability to blend into an environment and as a result buying time to assess situations. Learning this skill was almost forced upon me and to be honest I was very reticent to learn it. I have always been a bit of an individualist and when I went to London to go to teacher training college I arrived as a hardcore cultural northern punk, battle hardened in an environemt of industrial strikes and social rioting, hardly prospective teaching material. On my first teaching practice in a large inner city comprehensive I quickly understood that I had brought a new dynamic into the environment. Previously it had been a case of them and us, the kids and the teachers now they both had a target to focus their attention on, me! What I found out was what worked well for me as a look returning home to play rugby on the 6:35 out of Euston every week, didn't work as well in a school the following Monday. What I had to do was learn about my environment so I could adapt in the same way as a camelion can. A-S Warrior you are right there are three skills required here and they are in order observe, observe and observe. Observe how they look, that is often the ticket quietly in. Observe how they behave, that is what keeps you in the fold and observe how they react that's what leads to acceptance. I tend to think of ourselves very much as other mammals, though potentially we might be a bit more intelligent, we often behave in similar ways. I know if I stop today and take one sheep out of a farmer's field cross the road and put it into the field of another farmer opposite the other sheep will not bat an eyelid and will accept it. If in the road I get out some sheers and give it a creative hairstyle, add a little bit of spray on colour and a little 'odour de la fox' behind its ears creating 'punk sheep' (you have to use your imagination on this one) then the reaction on placing it in the field opposite might be somewhat different. I used to get that reaction on the train each weekend I could put my feet up on the seat opposite, my bag next to me as a pillow and get a really good sleep in with no hassle whatsoever, even from the guards when I didn't have enough cash to buy a ticket. When it came to school going for a more traditional sheep look helped a little. When we went of preliminary visits I would look around the staff room at what everyone was wearing and would then pitch just inside what I felt was a safe zone. Often my compromise position was a demo suit and plain shirt and shoes but with some pretty extravagant ties, which I would often remove early in the day because of practical reasons. Those ties were my real core identity but were something which was flexible. The next observation area is behaviour and I would start with posture and importantly group postural dynamics. I have witnessed a number of people with AS in social situations and often they think it is something they have said which causes a problem, in my experience they can make small but important mistakes very early on in the social process. When in social situations I think it is important to step back and observe how how a group physically arranges itself. How are they aligned as a group and this means feet and shoulders. Groups set themselves up as pecking orders and for example you can read who is important by who faces who and where individuals have aligned their foundation. Often upper bodies move around a bit with the flow but feet give it away, who are the important people. I would also be very though full about when feet are aligned to a gap! One of the big mistakes I made early on in my teacher training was going into a staff briefing and seeing an empty chair and sitting in it quickly because the head teacher who I had met about 20 minutes previously came into the briefing. The head teacher waited for a couple of minutes then the staff room door opened and three women entered talking quite relaxed, I felt that's a bit rude, then one walked over in my direction and I looked around and saw there were no empty chairs and that I was sitting in the chair of the staff rooms head Wolf. The next day I stood in a quiet corner even though there were spare seats and the same thing happened day after day the head teacher always waited for these three women who controlled the show. In hindsight all the signs were there in an empty staff room if you really looked and were prepared to read them carefully. I think what we can do at times I know I do this, is that we arrive very early at social events and let the social map develop around us and we play safe by taking up corner positions in rooms. This is fine as a strategy but I always take time to secure the set or space with a folder, drink, coat etc... and then get a bit of distance to have a look at how it is set up. This is important in events such as conferences where you might be asked to join in with group etc... you need to have ideas about where you might want to go and the safe bets might be on the other side of the room. Once you have a clearer picture about group dynamics then I think you can make judgements about entry points. I have seen many times AS people break into circles and stand right next to or slightly behind 'head wolf' and can see the reaction amongst other group members thinking 'I have know this person for two years now and would not do that'. a camelion would not do that it would look for soft entry points. There are times when I have read a soft entry point where people are aligned in the right direction though might be upper body turned to the direction of conversation, sometimes they move one foot for balance but the anchoring leg will not move, and it's a case of asking 'do you mind if I join you', or 'is it ok to join you and bring a chair in' and if you get it right they simply part and open up a space. The next point would be mirror body posture once in because this is what a camelion would do. Some individuals with AS do not have very relaxed bodies and can stand very tall and formal. Look at how other stand or sit and try and mirror posture. Often the pack leaders are formal and the others more submissive and coming in albeit with a natural posture can act as a kind of challenge to some head wolf types. This is something you can practice at home. This does not mean be a slob rather there are postures for different occasions and if we are a bit rigid and serious this is often a very good posture to use when we want to mean business, but not when we want to make friends. My final bit of advice is create the space in your own mind to observe reactions especially to anything you do or say. If in a group and you go to the toilet or to raid the buffet watch if they close the space you leave quickly or not, what might this tell you. In similar ways take your time entering into a discussion and take not of feet positions just as much as what people might say to you. This is often very difficult for Aspies because we get excited and get carried away in our own thoughts. At the end of the day it is a game and games should be fun. I often had to play these types of games at things called weekend conferences. I would stand back after events and think I am stuck here for two hours having to chat and network, hell on earth situation or muck about session? I would then start game playing pick on groups which had wolves and sheep in them and read entry points. I would stand there quietly and at good points come into the conversation. I would see who reacted well to my point and align myself to them and alter my posture a bit to mirror them, drop the hand holding my drink if they did etc.... I would make note of their feet and if the lead leg moved towards me I would push on until the foundation foot was in alignment. Once won over I would scan and move to another target and say something such as 'I liked the point you made earlier, what do you think about ....' I would play the game until one by one the group was facing me all lined up and the last throw of the dice being the posture of the initial head wolf would collapse in submission at which point I would say 'I have enjoyed the conversation a lot it's been really interesting but I want to meet some new people look forwards to talking with some of you later on in the weekend' and of I would go get another drink assess the situation and pick another group. The big question is am I good in social situations and the answer is yes and no. In some ways I am very good but it is exhausting and it is something you really need to focus on and turn it into a strength but it never really gets easy. A-S Warrior is so right you really have to take time out to observe situations and start to work out the rules. Love the idea of watching soaps for this, would suggest recording them and turning the sound off and working out what is being said from just the body language do not try to even start to lip read. The question is why would we want to go to all this effort and should we if it's so much like hard work? In my own life I have had lots of ideas that I wanted to put into practice which were really important to me. I had to sit down at points in my life and ask the question how important is this to you, if it is that important you will need to make sacrifices. One of these sacrifices was I needed to build up influence so my ideas might expand and gain some real value because I believed they were worth it. As a result I decided this was best approached as a game and as in any type of sport there were a number of skill elements and by practicing them and importantly watching closely top players I could improve dramatically. Going back to the start of my post a key ingredient in this learning process was being able to get into environments where I could learn and this can initially mean being a camelion and blending in. When we get close to situations it is surprising how much we can learn. I was fortunate when teaching that one of my schools backed onto a golf course used for the Open Championship, as a result the school closed in practice week to make a lot of money and we could volunteer. As a result I was fortunate to be within a few feet one year to the likes of Tiger Woods and his fellow pros, in the capacity of leading a team of pupils on the course. I can remember standing next to one such pro watching him hit practice shots from a deep bunker and the kids tugging at my sweater saying we need to be doing this sir! My response I will be along in minute or two. The point is we can observe but when we get really close we can also feel what it is like to operate at this level and I was trying to feel how you lifted a ball almost vertically out of a deep pot bunker something I had never been able to do. There is a reason a camelion has developed the skill to blend into its surroundings and it is not to look good on the glossy cover of a book about lizards, the reason is to feed and to protect itself, both very important traits for any animal even if they are human. Personally I like the idea of the camelion, why because I am very individualistic, and in a neutral setting I think it is one of the most striking, beautiful and interesting creatures on the planet, think I could buy into that. Just a few thought to keep things moving, good idea for a post A-S Warrior. Edited June 2, 2012 by LancsLad Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
darkshine Report post Posted June 2, 2012 I'm an observer too - it was one of the things that enabled me to survive growing up because I knew how to slip into the background for a lot of the time... it also allowed me to learn what I call "the scripts" unfortunately the habit has become too strong, I don't want to be in the foreground - and I don't wanna be seen, I prefer my camouflage Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
A-S warrior Report post Posted June 2, 2012 @lancslad, i love the camelion analogy, i think its a fantastic way to look at this, and i think your post was a fanatstic counter post to mine, thakyou. PS slightly jelous that you saw tiger woods lol @darkshine, intersesting that you prefer to be a full time camoflager, i can see why though, thankyou for your post. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LancsLad Report post Posted June 2, 2012 A-S warrior I think one of the enormous aspects which might be an overarching element in this series of topics which I think is a good idea though I didn't contribute to the last one, memory not that good, is personal 'motivation'. One of the most frustrating aspects of AS in my life is that it is a condition which I feel contributes a lot into the ways in which I think. Often I come up with some really strong ideas and look around and realise no one is doing this why not? At this point my AS often feels like a cage. My prefered state is to live an insular life quite happily in many ways in my own world, but in doing so we often do not get the things we want or possibly deserve. And I think this a central issue with AS and it is one which I know you are taking on in a lot of your posts, and that is answering the question 'how much do you want something'. Because of AS we often have to pay a higher price in the 'auction of life'. I am a massive fan of '4 rooms' on Channel 4, my favorite dealer being Jeff, when he wants something he goes for it and rules go out the window and he sets his own agenda. He has a set of negotiation skills and if all else fails he gambles because he has nothing to loose. I kind of see life like this myself. I think at the end of the day you need something to motivate you, the girl sat on the train opposite, the promotion at work, supporting a family, to have a holiday or simply just to make your parents proud. I think because of the inflated price we have to pay as a result of AS we tend to pick and choose what we are prepared to spend our energies on a lot more than many people. If this is the case I can understand why people with AS become cautious. It might be a case is worth me paying £200 for this object when tomorrow it is only worth £100 of anyone elses money? I think that depends. If the object is pretty unique and has built into it some real value and is simply not fashionable, then yes it might be worth paying £200 to get it because it may be worth £2000 in ten years time, and that is a good return, its all about investments. All the ideas related to observing and practicing skills with friends or watching soaps etc... are all really good, but they take time and effort. If we are to engage in such activities I think we need to change our mindset from thinking about what the returns might be worth tomorrow and think abot these issues as a long term investment in our futures. For some of us that in itself is motivation enough, for others it is harder than that, I think this all comes down to personality in the end and that is possibly the one thing we can not change. Just a few more thoughts. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
A-S warrior Report post Posted June 2, 2012 @lancslad, consider it done, episode 3 will be on motivation, i think if pepole can see the low hanging fruit in life, they might put in that extra effort to reach for it. theres a particular lad on here, he has all the potential in the world yet lacks the motivation, i would love to see him reach his potential. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LancsLad Report post Posted June 2, 2012 (edited) I would advise that you don't rush into a third eppisode yet. Like a good wine these things take time to develop and this is a really good post so let it ferment for a bit. I can see your frustration in other pople but my advice is you have to kind of back off in such situations. When I was a young teacher I worked hard for a few years and then i was allowed to get my hands on the 'A' level group as a bit of a reward I guess. I also moved up from being a tutor in what is now year 8 taking a group through year 10 and 11. Again I was rewarded with a sixth form tutor group. This was a pretty average school in many respects in an ex mining community on the surface nothing special but packed full of potential. At this point I came across a lad with considerable ability, he had AS I suspect, and I worked very hard with him so that he could start to reach his potential, kind of 10% me and others, 90% him I guess. The result was he got a top university place unconditionally, runner up in Young Engineer of Great Britain helped a bit as well. I then thought about what are the other top universities and courses in my field for example, fashion, graphic design, automotive and aeronautical enginnering, architecture, computer design etc... I then researched the courses and what they were looking for in students to give them unconditional offers and put the information in a series of brown envelopes in my office draw. Each time an individual came along and they recieved an unconditional offer from the very same university, on the very same course I opened the envelope and tore up the paper as a target achieved. It took me around 8 years to empty my draw which I did eventually. In many ways I did not go out to find talent and push it into a specific direction, rather all the choices were individual ones made by the students themselves. Likewise it was not all about half a dozen or so students rather a hundred or so who went into top places many not needing examinations to get there rather it was based on a recognition of talent. Developing potential in my own experience is all about personally tunning in to the right wavelength and broadcasting on that frequency. What I have found is like minded individuals regardless of age kind of follow suit, but at first they have to deal with a lot of background disturbance. Talent and potential never comes along in a clear crisp digital format, its far too precious to be that clinical. Often it is a weak anolouge signal which can be easily distorted. The key is not to see it as worthless white noise but to finely manipulate your own dial so that the message becomes clearer and you are able to communicate on a good wavelength, that might mean changing your own position a little bit, but no more. If I had some personal advice A-S Warrior it would be this, you communicate on a pretty good wavelength but it takes a bit of time for people to tune into your frequency. Some of us get you and your messages reasonably quickly because our radio sets are a bit old and relly as such on good solid basic technology which works. They might have cost a fair bit back in the day as well! As such we have a thumping big dial to move a fraction to the left or right rather than trying to use two press buttons which might look good and produce an image on a little screen but often its really frustrating to hit the perfect spot. In other words be patient. Best wishes. Message from old fart telling good young un, he's doin ok, over an out! Edited June 2, 2012 by LancsLad Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
A-S warrior Report post Posted June 2, 2012 cheers mate, yes i agree, i want all my episodes to be well thought out and not rushed into, i will allow for some time between this one and my next, it will also give me time to think over what i want to say as well, and i think pepole can cope better with one episode at a time, over a period of time. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LancsLad Report post Posted June 2, 2012 To get back to the main point of the post I also think there is a second way and that is to go in completely the opposite direction and become a real eccentric if that feels comfortable. The point here is not to camoflage at all but revert back to a 'punk sheep' status if you have the confidence to do so. In my early life this is how I managed to get away with finding a lot of space for myself. I am not too sure about this and so am calling on the older members to help me out, but I do not think it is as easy these days to take this line as it once was, what do people think? In some ways the real aristocracy have never had a problem with this and they have been pretty much a consistent. When I have come across these people in life I have always hit it off with them. I think there is a reason for this and that is they do not care much for rules either, and that includes very complex social stuff. Without doubt I think there are many with AS who if they found a way of expressing their inner selves in an individualistic way they could find a very happy balance in their lives. I would be interested what people think on this because its not a message given out by what I would call 'professional services'. Rather there is a background push towards conformity rather than expresionism from established parties who try to play an influential role in the development of individuals with ASD traits. They push this under the banner of 'life skills'. Personally I view myself as a bit of a creative and so I like putting my feet into unconventional territories. My favortite sweater at the moment. I have always have one at any one time a real OCD trait, is an lambswool argyl, 'pringle' sort of design, very conventional, but with dark ink splatters all over it in a violent patterns. Not the sort of thing to wear, nor would I choose to wear it playing important social games in professional scenarios for example. I can see the approach A-S Warrior is advocating as a good strategy for many, for a few I feel there might be a different way. Personally I always liked to have my foot in both camps and switch when needed for impact reasons. For a lot of people whoose personalities might be more reserved it is not that easy and the issue is feeling caught in some sort of middle ground. In this middle ground we see ourselves as being very different yet we might lack the confidence for very good reasons to push out enough to make an impact in the world. I think that as Aspies for example we are also very honest and so artificialy buying into a fashionable look to gain access feels very false if not fraudulent and so we back off. In my own case i was fortunate I think to be at an age, in a time, where I stepped through those boundaries, made a mark and as such a fair bit of self confidence was ingrained in my internal belief mechanism, guess the punk sheep never leaves you and it might be a good thing in a lot of situations, it at least lets you graze where you want on the best grass in a field full of other sheep! Just a few thoughts, having one of those days, and a few beers, speculating about ringing up to find the price on the item below; http://www.lamberty.co.uk/bespoke?itemid=437 P.S. I know I can't afford it at the moment but am thinking of what sort of work would I need to bring in to be able to buy it, as I said before its all about 'motivation', might be a fair swop garden design project for a coffee table! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
robert7111a Report post Posted June 3, 2012 Hmmm...some very good points but I don't think it's as easy as it sounds for me personally. I cannot be a chemeleon, blend in and then act like somebody else. This could be construed in the wrong way by some people and get you into trouble. Why act out of character? Perhaps I am missing something. For me, this is confidence. I would not have the confidence to blend in a group and imitate certain people without making a t*t of myself. I really lack confidence in a group situation and it shows. My anxiety really shines through. I think I will sit this one out and perhaps ask A-S Warrior to seriously consider confidence in your next episode...this does tie in with motivation. If you are not confident about something, you will not have the motivation to do it. Sorry A-S Warrior but I don't think I can relate to this one unless you can prove to me otherwise Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LancsLad Report post Posted June 3, 2012 Robert I fully understand what you are saying. I think the issue here is levels of motivation. Developing these skills in my experience takes a lot of effort and a lot of concentration and yes it does feel very much like acting out of character. As a result there is a big cost to this. I want to make it clear I am not say that you are someone who lacks motivation in life, but if we are more or less coping being the person we are and as such creating a healthy sense of identity why would we want to change, there is no reason and as such there is no question which needs to be answered in respect to personal motivation. For myself however I had a massive desire to implement many of my ideas. To stand any chance I had to get into some professional areas where I could exert influence in my life and to do so I was motivated enough to pay the price. I can say this is a very difficult balancing act and can leave you feeling very fradulent at times and as such questioning your motivations. I think A-S Warrior comes from a perspective if life feels very difficult and your personality is one which drives you to want to fit in especially at a social level with peers then the price for developing skills might also be worth it. Personally I am not like this at all. I am a real selfish ###### in many ways who does not care what people think about me as long as I get the chance to implement some of my creative ideas. As such I will play games to get what i want, would I make the same effort to be liked by my peer group, the answer is no, but I am a bit of a loner, Wheras some pople crave being part of a collective and are naturally social animals though their skills might be a little weak as a starting point, I guess A-S Warrior might be like this, but thats for him to say, I am not. In many ways we are coming to the same conclusions from different ends of the argument. There is of course a massive middle ground and that is where people are pretty happy or at least accepting of the skills they have and have a strong sense of self identity, good on them I say. I welcome your comments Robert because I suspect they are representative of that middle ground and many if not the majority of people will relate to what you say. Best Wishes. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
robert7111a Report post Posted June 3, 2012 Yes LancsLad you make an excellent point about levels of motivation which didn't really occur to me. Some people are more motivated than others and I applaud A-S Warrior's enthusiasm to get us more motivated. He has a lot of drive. People have different goals in life and different ways of getting motivated. And yes, what motivates us is what we get at the end, even if we do have to appear fraudulent as you say. But where people are concerned, for me, confidence is a massive issue. And it is very easy for me to lose confidence. I was brought up feeling little self worth and always looking over my shoulder. Alluding to a current post on a different forum thread is that I need somebody to show me "the right way" who isn't going to judge me. The problem I have in groups is that I lack confidence and feel others are judging me. This in turn lowers my confidence even further and my anxiety gets the better of me Perhaps my self-esteem is not very good right now and I'm sounding like I'm pouring cold water over the issue. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
A-S warrior Report post Posted June 3, 2012 hopefully as the series goes on, it will all fall into place. i couldnt really go deeper without repeating myself. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
A-S warrior Report post Posted June 3, 2012 I applaud A-S Warrior's enthusiasm to get us more motivated. He has a lot of drive. im also stark raving mad lol Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
robert7111a Report post Posted June 3, 2012 I suppose I have always tried to be myself. Since finding out I had many core traits of AS, I am still undecided whether its a cause for celebration or not. Although I feel better knowing the reason why I was different, do I really want to camouflage it and "pretend" I don't have it? I'm getting a bit of a mixed message here A-S Warrior because you start your original post somewhere as "having AS is seen as a gift" - now you want to camouflage it...? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
A-S warrior Report post Posted June 3, 2012 good question, to me aspergers is like a faceted diamond, many lights shine from it, most good, but some are bad. one of the bad ones are the social disabilitys. the bad sides are the ones we want to camouflage, by learning and develpoing those parts. and to me, the oppertunity to learn and develop is a gift. most pepole take for granted most of the things we strugle with, but when we conquer those parts and learn to devoplop like everybody else albeit, down an alternative line, then we can become amazingly gifted human beings, that said along with the positive sides i brought up in my A-S warriors mission topic, then its plain for me at least, to see that its a gift. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
robert7111a Report post Posted June 3, 2012 Well my wife loves me for what I am so something about my AS must be good. I'd hate to think what I would be like if I was still single. I have observed her interactions with others closely but as she is not the outgoing social type, I have improved my interactions with many people from my observations and certainly am better with theory of mind issues but I can't learn everything from her. And (for her), my AS is good in that she is not a pub or football widow as I'm certainly not one to go out with the lads on a Saturday night I suppose the good part of AS for me is that another important piece of the jigsaw has been found. But the bad bit for me is clearly the social aspect and the anxiety that goes with it. But I do wish to become better at this rather than camouflage it. And the motivation is there - it's just finding the right person to give me that confidence Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LancsLad Report post Posted June 4, 2012 Robert I aluded to the fact that for me there was a tricky balance between developing my skills in respect to achieving my goals in life and feeling fraudulent. When I recieved my diagnosis for AS a couple of years back it came as a big relief for me. By developing the lifestyle I had I was getting more and more opportunities to practice my skills and as a result they were getting better and better, but they never felt 'natural'. What I will say is that I had an idea early on that if I got a few promotions and got more or less to the top of my field that I would find more space there to be more like myself. I have to say I think I was right on that one. If I had a problem it would be that when I found a bit of breathing space in this way I simply bolted another new project into my life. I am not saying this to get any symathy rather I can see why I did things the way I did back then and suspect there is little I would change. The point I am trying to make is that for me these skills never really stuck, and by that I mean come naturally and happen on a subconcious level. I always had to turn the switch on and they always drained the battery as they take a bit of energy to execute. Beacause of this I became a very different person at work, coaching, at home around the foster kids etc... There was a time when I would very much be myself at home on my own or with my partner but more and more I simply crashed. Some people thought I was developing Bi-Polar tendancies but in reality the pressures of many areas of my life were so great I was having to constantly be on my toes and act my way through it. It got to the stage where I thought I am ###### good at this but its such ###### hard work. The mental and physical breakdown which happened was almost inevitable as a result. When I got my AS diagnosis I realised, these skills will never stick and this is the reason why. It gave me permision to simply be myself again. It made me stop thinking if I work really hard for another year or so maybe I can eventualy get over the hill and turn myself into a different type of person. I then realised that this was never going to happen, to accept myself for the person I am and construct a life around those realities. What I have been left however is I believe a pretty good skills set. A lot of those skills I do not use very often but when I do use them I am happy to make sure the battery is fully charged and walk into scenarios from time to time with all the switches fully turned on. I am waiting for a date to go to court for a tribunal to defend myself against the DWP wanting to recover some incapacity benefit which is a reasonable sum, I have done nothing wrong in my opinion by the way. Wefare Rights have looked at the case and said it could go either way, but they recomend I defend myself as this is in my interests. In many ways they are right I think I would be better than the person I met who looked flat and exhausted and for her its just another case. Whilst I am anxious about the hearing, I am on one level looking forwards to the challenge to get all my old skills out and see if they are still up to scratch and in good working order I suspect they are. I might win I might not but I will play the game to the best of my ability. In some ways I am in an ideal position I feel I have developed skills and can choose to take them or leave them. I would say this is the healthy position. To A-S Warrior I would say it is healthy to develop skills to be able to go out with your mates on a weekend for example and join in. To develop them to a level where this enables you to live with some poepole in a house where you would otherwise struggle to cope without them I am not too sure. I know from experience you can do this for some time, even a few years, but you then start to pay the price for the constant acting effort. I agree using the skills to blend in is far more energy efficient than standing out and being accepted but it still drains the batteries. At the end of the day it is all about finding the right sort of balance in our lives and the most important element in creating stability is self acceptance, then we can play around with some of the jigsaw pieces at the sides once the central picture is clear. At times we might need these skills to make progress in life before things become a bit more established. Living in a house full of mates is a good example and possibly an economic requirement untill we find a partner and settle down to living inour own place. In other words I think you are both right and its all about situation and motivation. Just a few thoughts. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
robert7111a Report post Posted June 4, 2012 LancsLad. I can really see where you're coming from. If you are constantly trying to be "switched on" and act like a different person to what you really are, then yes, this really takes an awful lot of energy and a lot of maintainance to keep it all up. I was going to ask "how do you cope?" but then further down you said "I simply crash" which did make me chuckle. Every day, I have to put on a bit of a front to my work colleagues but generally try to be myself with my patients particularly as they are distressed and need my help But some require extra effort on a social level where I've had to learn very fast through observation which leaves me mentally drained at the end of the day. The job is generally high pressure. Sorry to hear about your tribunal. I guess it depends on what the other people are like which will guide how you act. Knowing the system is a good start so best of luck! Best wishes Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LancsLad Report post Posted June 4, 2012 Robert what I find particulary sad for a lot of individuals with AS is that they do not reach their potential because of social anxieties yet they may be highly skilled and competent in so many other areas of life. I think this last post of yours really highlights this in that you have a job, your patients know what you are there for, and I bet you are very good at it. To me this is about having the space to be yourself and get on with things. Your AS does not impact is guess in any way whatsoever with your patient interactions other than they might think you are a bit 'geeky' not sure if that is the right word but am sure you get what I mean. I bet they also think because of this type of demeanour he really knows his stuff I am in safe hands here. You then say you feel you have to put the front on with your 'colleagues' or with some patients, I know how this can feel and it can be so frustrating. I guess it is all about finding a place in life where there is some sort of balance. Your whole post reminds me of a guy I used to play cricket with who was a top international brain surgeon, have had to stop a match while a helecopter landed to take him to an opperation in another country, top level stuff. I am not sure if I would say he had AS or not but there were strong autistic traits there for sure, which made him a good opening batsman. I asked him once why did he go into brain surgery at this life and death level, did he not feel the pressure. His answer was really interesting in that he said he did so because he struggled in talking to patients and parents of patients in any other areas he worked in. He knew he was very good, in fact he thought he was just about the best at what he did in this country and the facts would back this up. The best thing he said about emergency brain surgery was there were no real expectations from a social perspective. No one was asking him to talk about what he was going to do and why rather everyone was of the frame of mind 'I hope you are as good as we think you are, please get on with it'. In some ways the perfect AS job. I guess what's high pressure for one person is not high pressure for another, or possibly pressure they can deal with reasonably comfortably. There are a lot of things I could do in life which would scare the living daylights out of many people, Sitting down in Starbucks for a casual chat in a dinner time talking about absoloutly nothing important, now that petrifies me! If there was a good reason to do so I would, but I know I would be spending the afternoon curled up in bed or out in the hills on my bike just to recover. What's interesting about life is that we are all so very different in many unique ways, and that means having our own strengths and weaknesses, that level of vulnerability keeping us human I guess. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
darkshine Report post Posted June 6, 2012 @lancslad, i love the camelion analogy, i think its a fantastic way to look at this, and i think your post was a fanatstic counter post to mine, thakyou. PS slightly jelous that you saw tiger woods lol @darkshine, intersesting that you prefer to be a full time camoflager, i can see why though, thankyou for your post. Only when I'm with people in real life - when I'm on my own I'm fine as I am. The point I am trying to make is that for me these skills never really stuck, and by that I mean come naturally and happen on a subconcious level. I always had to turn the switch on and they always drained the battery as they take a bit of energy to execute. Beacause of this I became a very different person at work, coaching, at home around the foster kids etc... There was a time when I would very much be myself at home on my own or with my partner but more and more I simply crashed. Some people thought I was developing Bi-Polar tendancies but in reality the pressures of many areas of my life were so great I was having to constantly be on my toes and act my way through it. It got to the stage where I thought I am ###### good at this but its such ###### hard work. The mental and physical breakdown which happened was almost inevitable as a result. I feel that way too - like I have to turn a switch to make things happen - to get things done - and the skills can be there but they don't last. People have said I have bi-polar tendencies and I'm not surprised because it probably looks that way at times - it feels that way at times... When I got my AS diagnosis I realised, these skills will never stick and this is the reason why. It gave me permision to simply be myself again. It made me stop thinking if I work really hard for another year or so maybe I can eventualy get over the hill and turn myself into a different type of person. I then realised that this was never going to happen, to accept myself for the person I am and construct a life around those realities. What I have been left however is I believe a pretty good skills set. A lot of those skills I do not use very often but when I do use them I am happy to make sure the battery is fully charged and walk into scenarios from time to time with all the switches fully turned on. Unfortunately I'm not quite there with that here's hoping that I will one day cuz life would be a hell of a lot easier... LancsLad. I can really see where you're coming from. If you are constantly trying to be "switched on" and act like a different person to what you really are, then yes, this really takes an awful lot of energy and a lot of maintainance to keep it all up. I was going to ask "how do you cope?" but then further down you said "I simply crash" which did make me chuckle. That's what its like for me too - I don't cope either, I just keep going until I crash - some things I can do longer than others and this can be from minutes to a few weeks depending on the circumstance - but I crash every single time - and the harder I push myself and force myself to do things that make life miserable and painful, the worse I crash. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shnoing Report post Posted June 7, 2012 I have been interested very much in how other people (now I know: NTs) behaved as an SI and I think that helps me now at my workplace. It seem A-S warrior (e.g.) has had similar experiences. But supposed your SI doesn't include interests in/about human behaviour, what would you do? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LancsLad Report post Posted June 8, 2012 Shnoing, good point, and a difficult question. When you say SI I guess you are refering to 'special interest' or 'focus' might be a word I would prefare to use. In thinking this through I was taken back to a health appointment I had on Wednesday at 9:00. As per usual I had got anxious and arrived half an hour early, had done the form filling in as is always the case and was sat in the waiting room. I started to look around at the similar NHS set up. I could see through reception and as a result could see people entering the building. I started to predict were they office workers, visitors etc.... which way would they go, how the two reception staff responded to them once their backs were turned. My attention turned to the vending machines and why there was no fresh fruit in them only crisps and chocholate. Eventually I started to look at the magazines arranged around the tables in neat piles at the usuall titles were there, womans titles brought in by the office staff, could tell its basic NHS provision no vouge or cosmopolitan in there the odd top gear for the boys and a magazine on 'steam trains'. I thought that there would be a couple of members on the forum who might go straight for that in a big way and my personal observational games moved on. I think I get your point, its fine if your interest is people or social situations but what if it is 'steam trains', what do you do then? Shnoing I used the word 'focus' because I think we need to see ourselves as bit of a camera. The cameras I am talking about are the old style professional ones the SLR types with the big boddies all the dials and importantly interchangeable lenses. Whe you buy these cameras they usually come with a general purpose lense which is good for taking general purpose pictures, its not great for taking massive landscapes nor is it good for taking a close up of a bee on a flower. I would use this analogy to say this is a typical NT lense. I think however that some individuals on the spectrum come with a specialist zoom lense as the only lense in their camera package. You see steam trains on a magazine and the appointment in 10 minutes and what you are about to say goes out of the window and your mind is racing through train classes. Suddenly we can see something through our lense and it comes into focus. If we then try and frame a larger composition many elements are out of focus our eyes start to hurt because they can't adapt and we point the camera at something really close to give ourselves a break. In a similar way many people on this forum will find it very hard to focus on anything out of their comfort zone. I think part of the answer is to recognise how complex we really are and as such we have great potential. When I was 10 my school went on a trip to London for a couple of days which was a massive thing, no one in my family had ever been to London and I was to be the first. My dad lent me his SLR camera for the trip. He told me he had set the dials and gave me a spare roll of film and how to change it but not to touch anything else just point and press. I was then given spending money by a few people. All the way down to London all I could do was look at the camera and wonder what the dials all did and how it worked. That first Friday we went out for a walk near our cheap hotel and I begged my teacher to let me go into a camera shop. I showed the man behind the counter my camera who was quite impressed that I had it and asked did he have a book to explain how it all worked. He found a book and then I put my all my money on the counter and asked how many rolls of film could I get with what was left over. He gave me a cardboard box of a dozen 48's and that was all my money spent in the first hour of the trip, reckon I had enough for one or two rolls at most, thanks shop man! All weekend I took photographs after reading the book through the night. When I got home I presented the rolls to my parents they were shocked. My mum took them into the local camera shop in our town and asked them to develop one which came back with some very good pictures all perfectly exposed. They got all the rolls developed which were of the same standard, sunset shots, close up, shots of cars outside the hotel with long exposures and light trails, the only type of pictures I didn't take were the nude or glamour shots in the book thought it prudent to leave that chapter alone for the time being. I got all the photos back, my mum on pay day had to go into the camera shop and pay off a tab for months. The point is I proved my dad to be wrong, I didn't break the camera I could cope with all the dials though it was not easy to learn about. In a similar way I think we need to learn Shnoing about ourselves and how we work. The camera body which can often take amazing close ups of flowers and bees can also do a landscape but it has the wrong type of lense on. You could think of the original lens as our autistic traits and the camera body as our personalities and other core aspects which are central to us. Personally I feel I can bolt on other lenses. In some ways I think I have a very good autistic wide angle lense to be honest as well, in that I can often see the big picture as well as I can see detail, I know I struggle with mid ground shots in a big way. When I have a general lense on my camera body, the one most NT's use all the time for everything I find it hard to get crisp photos a lot of the time. Its also not very good for 'arty' shots and I get bored with it easily, but I know I need to persevere with it if I am to become the complete photographer. A lot of this is about motivation, and if someone want's to be the worlds expert on photographing bees and flowers then let them get on with it. There is always a part of me which might question myself if this was the case, do you really only want to take pictures of flowers and bees, is this a bit of a cover up for a lack of confidence and anxiety? I can ask this of myself but not of others though. What I would say if anyone is going to be genuinely happy working within the confines of a narrow genre it will be someone who is autistic! When I was a kid I really wanted to know what that camera could do, this is a personality trait of mine, my autistic side supports this trait. As a result motivation has not really been an issue in my life a lot of the time. As observers we can look at individuals and think they have so much potential, its like looking at a camera and thinking I bet thats a really expensive bit of professional kit. But like cameras its all about whoose hands it is in. For many people buying a professional camera is the last thing they should do (mother in law are you reading this), all they want to do is point and shoot, the dials, numbers,letters and lines petrify them. Some people will not change and they will forever be petrified by the world and want to remain in their comfort zone, we should respect this decision. If I had a bit of advice it would be that you can learn a lot about how the main camera works by experimenting with close up shots using your zoom lense. When we then come to the point of taking the lense off and changing our perspective with another lense all we have to worry about in many ways is the new lense. I feel I have reached this point where I am comfortable with the main camera body its just I am practicing with a new lense in certain situations. This is always hard work, the pictures are not my best and at times they are overexposed or even out of focus but I am improving. I still put them in my portfollio, they might be weak but it demonstrates I am trying to develop my skills. Some NT's might come along and look for these mid scale party shots and say they are not that good I could do better, a lot of the time they are right. If they have the time I turn to other aspects of my portfollio and show them the landscapes, the seascapes at night time. At the other end of the portfollio are my specialist nature shots highlighting the maicro details of our environment. At this point I do not care what they think realy, rather I am comfortable in the fact that I am a serious photographer. In a similar way having good social skills is not the be all in life, it is not the one element which defines our competancy as a human, life is far more complex and rich than that and that is something we should not forget. Just a few more thoughts. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shnoing Report post Posted June 9, 2012 ...When I was a kid I really wanted to know what that camera could do, this is a personality trait of mine, my autistic side supports this trait. As a result motivation has not really been an issue in my life a lot of the time. ... Did you get social interactions via your "focus" or did it help you tolerate social interactions more easily? I'd say that's the case with me, although, sometimes it's just too much and I have to retire (i.e. putting on headphones when in public). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LancsLad Report post Posted June 9, 2012 (edited) Shnoing, I think for a lot of time because of the focus I had on everything that interested me I was more or less oblivious to the fact that other humans even lived on the planet. As a youngster and then a teenager I was focused on very specific things close to me and only about me. For example I became fascinated in dungeon and dragons when the concept first came across from the USA. This started with figures and painting them, I was mesmerised by the multi faceted dice etc.. and then in learning all the data about races and game dynamics. Within a short period of time my mind had gone from the micro scale to the macro scale and I was writting content for White Dwarf magazine aged 14. Nearly everything in my life was like this it was just about me and a subject, or I wanted to get involved in the biggest level possible. The thing I bypassed was dealing at a level which involved lots of human interaction. To use my analogy again my focus was either through a zoom lense at an intensly detailed level or through a wide angled lens taking in the big landscape, there were never shots of people at the middle level. It was only when I got into my late teens and early twenties that I realised that even though this was not a natural area for me to opperate in dealing with people, like using a camera with a standard lense attatched, social interaction was an important part of life. When it comes to social interactions I naturally come into them from two positions, and I think my early post highlights this. I like to stand back and get the overall picture what does this feel like, I can also zoom in really easily and lookat real details like what feet or hands are doing to read signs. I then have move around from big to small, big, small.... untill eventually I can focus in on the medium. Its a case of using what I know I am good at to get a clear focus on what I am not good at if that makes sense. Its all about dialing my senses in. This noramlly takes me a minute or so now I am practiced. In this way A-S Warriors ideas about fitting in are important because it gives you the time and space to dial in, sometimes you might need 5 minutes or more to work things out. What gets me anoyed a lot are general cliches regarding individuals with Asperger's for example. The most common one is we are no good in social situations. My take on it would be that we are very good at some things such as standing at a distance and observing the big picture, or some of us might be very good at watching someones hands to understand what they are feeling. If we recognise what we are good at and then move to the centre ground, the space many NT's opperate in then I think we can more or less hold our own, if not even excell. For me its all about finding a comfortable starting point from which to develop your skills and that's about recognising your strengths. Interestingly when I was younger I used to dial into the micro elements and likewise would listen to a walkman, read a book etc to get away from the middle grounde. As I have got older I have found I have gone the other way. I tend to focus on the big picture the big feelings and tune into the general environment and find the people tend to vanish from it and leave me everything else to enjoy. Hope this clarifies a few of my thoughts. Edited June 9, 2012 by LancsLad Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shnoing Report post Posted June 10, 2012 @LancsLad: I'm only good in social situations when I'm prepared for them. I try to be prepared for a whole range of possible situations, but sometimes it's too much. But I have the impression, that most(?) people on the spectrum have SIs (or focuses, if you prefer that term) which make them uneasy in social situations; it might be a question of "processor power" (if you take the brain), which just differs from person to person. What I'm good at are one-to-one situations; and speeches in front of bigger audiences (100, e.g.). Meeting are more difficult, especially if someone higher ranking is talking nonsense (it happens, sometimes), or doesn't want to take his (happened only with males, so far) responsibilities. I only fear that I (or we) only represent 1 % of the autistic spectrum, and cannot make assuptions about how the other 99 % cope with social situations. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LancsLad Report post Posted June 10, 2012 "I only fear that I (or we) only represent 1 % of the autistic spectrum, and cannot make assuptions about how the other 99 % cope with social situations." I might be slightly more optimistic Shnoing and put it at 2% or 3% but I agree I think we might be in a significant minority think it all dependes of whether we say do fairly well or simply cope at a basic level. Interestingly I would agree with you that speaking to bigger audiences does not hold the same fear for me as say speaking to a dozen individuals for some reason, its a bit like rock climbing for me I was never comfortable until I got about 30ft off the ground then I relaxed as if I fell it would be a pretty big mess anyway and the height made no real difference. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
darkshine Report post Posted June 10, 2012 Its funny how you talk about lenses and focus, cuz when I am forced into a social situation it makes me feel really negative and the way I see it is like looking at a huge landscape of people filling my vision and then I either get anxious, angry or overwhelmed. When I choose to engage with something that requires social interaction (which is barely ever) I can focus on individual people sort of ok and I try to ignore the rest as much as possible (which is hard because I can hear bits of what everyone is saying and that makes it hard to listen to one person). I find one on one so much easier. But when I think of this I realise that between 3 and 15 people are a nightmare because the chances of each one wanting to talk is higher - in a much larger crowd I can disappear much easier and there is less pressure to talk and less people staring when I do - but the noise is louder and that's worse.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LancsLad Report post Posted June 10, 2012 Darkshine would like to pick up a point here about numbers and how it affects us, which might have a lot to do with AS which might be of some interest. When I was a head of Technology one year because of budget constraints I knew the genneral staffing numbers for my department were under preasure in respect to our lower school groups. Up to that point we would have half a year group and seven teachers and the kids would go around seven rotations, Textiles, Food Technology, Electronics, Graphic Design etc.... A deputy in charge of staffing ratios wanted to cut the staff from 7 to 6 which would have meant group sizes going from 22 to around 25. I needed a strong argument to counter this proposal. I knew my strongest argument would be on health and safety grounds in rooms such as workshops with a lot of potential hazards. For the first time I decide to try and work out for myself how many kids I was actually able to focus on and know exactly what they were doing. Obviously my position in the room would be significant but it was only fair to pick good locations to observe activities. What I discovered was that I could build up the picture of the room but when I got to 17 or 18 if I brought another pupil into the picture I would loose one. I went to other experienced individuals in my team and asked them to do the same thing and found that one memebr who had a lot of autistic traits (an electronics specialist) could get to about 19 or 20, the rest of the department hovered around the 12 or 13 mark. I then realised that my argument was kind of dead in the water in some ways as group sizes were to big as it was. At the end of the day I went for a big emotional plea and fought my corner every year and always managed to win the argument for one more year. The whole exercise made me think what was really happening in my mind. I could see that I could hold on to quite a lot of kids to a point which was very good compared to a lot of other teachers, but this was very exhausting there was so much to process. There was then a point where I feel I carried on trying to make my rules work but I frustratingly seemed to loose one or two elements of the picture every time my attention momentairily shifted to a new subject in the room. Beyond a level in respect to numbers I think there is a point where you simply switch rules. This is often the case when I was coaching possibly 30 or 40 kids at sport. At this point I think I split my brain I let one part absorb the white noise and movement patterns and the other part might focus on one or two individuals. In this way I am trying to snese what is happening in the bigger picture as opposed to knowing what is happening through real focus. I raise these thoughts to ask as individuals on the spectrum is it that we are really not good at following an individual or conversation. Or is it a case that we are very good at taking on board multiple focus point up to an overload point, what we are really bad at is blending these individual foci into a blured picture whilst retaining a sense of what might be happening. I kind of suspect that NT's might simply have to blend at an earlier stage than us AS individuals as such they have had far more practice at developing senses as opposed to being focused on detail. When it comes to conversations in a group I know I am ok at following individuals and what they are saying even if it is over each other up to about a dozen, after that number I completely loose it because I am weak at sensing who is making the important points and who is just talking drivel. In such scenarios I find one of my best options is to observe body language and let a lot of the white noise go through my head untill someones physical actions signal for me to focus in and try and pick up what is being said. Because of this approach I think I am pretty good in a nosiy pub environment out with a sports club, but might be less effective sat in a committe meeting when things get heated and people are talking over each other a lot in multiple conversations. Partly because they are seated are are more static and a table obscures a lot of physical clues. What I think you are saying Darkshine is at a a level you find it very difficult to blend noise together as a genral background sound, rather it all is at the same level and just becomes too many elements to deal with. What is the feeling like in a large crown, does it ever get to be white noise or is it like walking around in a bubble with the closest 20 or 30 sounds all going off with equal clarity? If it is I can understand that because that was what it used to be like for me. Being in school environments in a corridor for example at break time was when I was in my early twenties was almost unbearable, I would say though that through constant exposure my ability to blend might have improved considerably. In some ways it would be interesting to be in that position say at 10:30 tomorrow morning, would I still be able to focus it out or would I have reverted back to finding it overwhelming as I have been away from this level of exposure for a few years now. The closest I have would be to say that was I could cope ok at university a few years back at lunch times in the student union building which was pretty similar yet the main road in the city in rush hour was something I found very disturbing. If this is true it might be about getting used to certain frequency's and I can do human but not traffic, not too sure. I think this affects my ability to hide in an environment I can blend into a crowd comfortably in my own mind but feel I stand out and am far more vulnerable walking along a main road, all psychological responses to stimulation I suspect though noise volumes and number of sources might be very similar. Just a few thoughts. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
darkshine Report post Posted June 11, 2012 (edited) I think you said it a better way - about having difficulty blending noise together... Although when it's a huge crowd, like at an outdoor event or in a large rowdy pub the noise does blend - but its still way too loud - like being in a bell tower when the bells are being rung. If I go to a cafe where there's a dozen people outside then I can ignore the noise because where I live the cafe's are dead. When I go to the city and go to a cafe (which is basically when a friend or my parents insist we must go to one of those places) I find it to be like having someone smack me in the head with the noise - of people talking loudly over other people, the noise or cups and cutlery on plates and chairs. I avoid them whenever possible, When I went to summer school a few years ago I "coped" with the classroom environment for 2 days before I had to continously go out for breaks and missed important material. There was maybe 12-16 per class and whenever people started a discussion it totally did my head in. In this circumstance - as in the cafe - where I am supposed to be concentrating on what the people talking to me are saying - all I can hear at the same level and louder than them is a droning babble with certain snippets of words or sentences jumping out - plus any other noise being made and movements that are off putting too. A classroom is harder than a cafe thought because in a learning environment the level of concentration is different. If I miss what my mate says at the cafe it probably won't matter - if I miss important details in the classroom it really does. So the effort of concentration wears me down pretty quickly - and concentrating on what people are saying, while trying and failing to ignore everyone is draining - it's like trying to listen for a mosquito at a rave. On a larger scale I once attended a thing, like a convention for all the local services and charities - on a social level that was ok, there were a lot of people there but they were all busy, I only had to say hello and who I was before moving on, it was just repeating a rehearsed script - not much concentrating require so more mental energy to cope with the situation and surroundings - and the focus was on a presentation for half of it and that was fine as everyone shut up and faced front But a wedding reception type event or a party with the same number of people as that convention (over a hundred) is my idea of a nightmare - people shouting over music - people being noisy and nosy - everyone moving around - and lots of different voices - every one I've been to has made me feel like absolute hell - I actually live in hope that I am never invited to such occasions. But there's differences here - in requirement, levels of sound, how calm or not calm people are, what the surrounding and situation requires, who I know, what I have to do and how I feel. I don't like meeting people, I don't like talking to them, I don't like being looked at, a lot of people really don't interest me and I find a lot of social convention around discussion points to be boring - and quite often in the above events conversations fall within set categories. Also I'm not big on the group thing - I don't mind on the internet so much - but with people actually standing there expecting stuff I just cringe because I really don't like being part of a group - its too many people to follow, and I often end up peeing someone off because they think I am ignoring them, or because I say things that are not appropriate etc. Traffic is a whole other ball game - I hate it so much, the paths make me feel exposed and like everyone is staring at me, the noise totally does my head in, especially when buses or lorries make that hiss when they brake or anything with a siren goes past or an idiot on a poxy little speed restricted scooter passes - you can hear the things for flaming miles!!!! - or just as bad the offroad bikes that go driving down the road in addition to the constant movement making sure that I have to pay even more constant attention. I find trying to talk to someone while we walk down a busy road to be very difficult - again just as much to blame on things to concentrate on as the noise is to blame. In addition I really feel more effort should be made to make tyres that reduce the noise as that is the primary cause - I know this for a fact because I've seen several nice cars go speeding past my home over the years, and elsewhere, and the engines are so quiet, they go past at between 40 and 50 mph and the tyres make an absolute row, the latest was an Acura TL - not sure if was a hybrid - but I was walking down the street and could hear it coming up behind me, it had to stop for the lights and it was almost silent at a standstill - if it wasn't a hybrid that was impressive... And if they can't make tyres that are quieter then they should change the road surfaces instead!! Dunno if it is obvious - but - traffic noise or rather tyre noise - is one of my pet hates Edited June 11, 2012 by darkshine Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
robert7111a Report post Posted June 11, 2012 Excellent post Darkshine. I can really understand the traffic thing...I hate traffic noise and especially screeching brakes like on buses and ambulance sirens. I have to literally cover my ears! The problem with trying to concentrate in the presence of background noise is something called Auditory Processing Disorder which I think is very common in people on the spectrum. But yes, the noise is truly bothersome and reduces concentration when it matters. Personally I do not like noisy places (low level noise isn't too bad where you hear yourself speak) and try and avoid them at all costs. I get very worked up and stressed in loud places. Does this count as a sensory issue? I think LancsLad raises a good point about observing body language when in noisy situations in order to try and pick up what is going on But for me, this is difficult. I get accused of staring at people when really I am trying to observe their facial expressions - but even still, I find it difficult to learn body language. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LancsLad Report post Posted June 11, 2012 To pick up on Roberts points first. I find faces very hard to read I am pretty blind in that respect. When it comes to boddies I am not sure if I have a real talent for it. If for example I am watching sport live or on the TV and there is a decision about a try at rugby, someone being out at cricket or the ball crossing the line at football etc.... I would say 95% of the time I will get it exactly right. Not simply it was not a try but why it was not a try what the hands did, what happened when the shoulder hit the gound, the fact the left foot was an inch above the line and didn't touch it sort of thing. I was asked to explain this to an international level coach once when I was going through my own coaching assessments. I found it hard to explain to be honest but its like I simply take in the whole picture and put it into my short term memory as a big data file and can then pull out anything I want from it. I have to say faces are nornmally blured on the data picture whilst everything else is crystal clear. I think this has a downside in that a lot of my life is concerened with recording and as such lacks any spontenaity, when I do respond there always feels like a time lag to me though it might be less than a second, as such I always feel a little bit out of sync in my life. I know for example I have always been considered to be pretty good at descending down difficult roads on my bike at high speeds. I am sure some of this is bottle, but have asked other good descenders what they think about and the majority say nothing they just react and it is all very spontaneous. I have met a couple of others who like myself whoose approach is like scanning the road as far as I can see and simply absorbing the data and like a computer plotting the best line through the hazards. I know at a point at about 90 km per hr the system comes under pressure and thats when I would need to back off, I have had team mates who could comfortably go beyond that by simply responding, they have both become professionals they were that talented and have told me that at that level they have recorded speeds in the 120/130 range racing on alpine roads, to put the concept of talent in perspective . One of the things I find hard about trying to understand how AS and the concept of the autistic spectrum works in my life, is that it is almost impossible to find anyone who might bet very close if not the same as me. I guess we all feel this way. Whe I got my diagnosis I felt great I will now find a dozen or so people just like me and they can tell me all about myself, it just doesn't work like that. When it comes to visual processing I am not sure if it is an AS think, it might be somehow connected to my creative side and ability to process three dimensional space pretty well, I know I was drawing in perspective at an early age well before a normal developmental milestone age. It might simply be a one off talent. I would like to think that this might have something to do with the autistic spectrum and as such other people might see part of themselves in my experiences. I also think there might be a case of saying that the approaches I have found which work for me might as a result work for others whose abilities might not be at the same level. What I will say is that whilst they might work the effort needed to make them work will not be the same, I honestly believe that what I might do reasonably naturally or at least be able to keep up for an hour before I get very tired might require 10, 20, 30 or 50 times the effort for someone else to reach the same point. As a result I can have no expectations on other people only on myself to use whatever I have found to be skills which work for me to good use. I guess we are all in the same boat on that one. Darkshine I could relate a lot to what you said but would describe it as a far more intense experience for you I guess than for me. Things such as regulated scooters really get to me, I had to get up from my chair and get a cup of tea at the simple thought of it, lol. I think this is because of the constant frequency. As I said before I think possibly due to exposure I have become accustomed to some types of auditory inputs into my brain than others and would say I have a mixed picture. Whilst a few sounds are painfull Robert's term 'bothersome' (excellent word am going to try and use it 10 times today) is so accurate to how I would describe it. I would also describe light inputs to be the same. Something such as a flickering fluorescent can really grind me down. I was once given an office with no windows and could not use it for more than a few minutes though it was in a very quiet and isolated corner of a building. Going to something like the Blackpool Illuminations is really exciting for me as are some nightclub experiences with good lighting set ups but I get to a point after a while where I simply crash because of the stimulation. Smells are also very mixed. I hate the smell of coffee and can't cope with it, my first ever panic attack was as a kid sent on an errand to a traditional coffee shop full of jars of beans and grinding machines on the counter. I have broken my nose that many times playing rugby since then that my sense of smell is pretty poor now and I think this has helped, advice if smells are difficult get someone to knee you in the face a few times! I guess the thing is that over time we kind of learn what is problematic and what is not. I know for example if I sense a large lorry coming up behind me whilst out on my bike and I am coming up to a sharp bend, or roundabout etc... to get ready for the air brakes going off because I don't like the sound at all. I would go as far as supporting my exposure thoughts that I have programmed my body not to react to the sounds of air brakes because to swerve might be a bit dangerous. When I do get caught out like this its as if there is a lot of energy locked inside of me which I have to get out and this takes a litle while. When I am aware of the sound coming I do not get this reaction rather it is an unpleasant in and out feeling in my body. I know in my own life my coping levels are such that I can put myself into situations which I know would be very very difficult for other memebers either to go in to at all, or at least to sustain a presence without feeling a very strong desire to get out. Darkshine the thing I find difficult to take, it uspsets me in fact, is that someone such as yourself and other members of the forum might be so tunned into sensory inputs and add onto that social anxiety that getting any sort of exposure must be very difficult, because it must affect your life greatly. The levels of frustration must be enormous. I can understand for example that a lot of people are scared of heights and are very uncomfortable. I also suspect a lot of people who work on high rise buiding sites once felt this way, but through exposure they get used if not even blase about the heights. I know there are many situations I get in where I feel exposed be it through noise or smells etc... and simply think hang in there for a bit longer and absorb the environment use anxiety management techniques and things will start to settle down. Darkshine you raise a very important issue what if you can't hang in there, the best management techniques simply are not working. I can relate to this like ridding a bike up a long steep hill at a fast pace. You set off at a fast pace and try and hang in but your heart rate keeps climbing the stress keeps building, there comes a point of back off or you will explode, more likely in a well trained athelete the body would shut down to protect itself, in sport the battle is to try and argue against it but it will win eventually. I guess in a similar way you either get out or shut down. I do not know what the answers are but wonder if we could improve our tollerence levels through controlled exposure. I have never done this or been aware of experiments but they must have hapened I guess, but would listening to HGV air brakes on an i-pod for example in my sleep desentisise me to the sound, or do the sounds need to be in context? Or is it the case that in a neurotypical brain this sort of approach might work but in an autistic brain it has no effect? I simply don't know but in a way feel I should know the answer to this as it is cited as a common problem for autistics and so why are the answers to questions such as this not common knowledge. If research highlighted for example that we were prone to certain frequencys how hard would it be to develop a temporary hearing aid we could wear whilst in certain environments to filter out the worst of our problems? If all these things have been tried and tested then at least we might be a little more accepting of the issues which face us on a daily basis. You never know we could get to the stage where we develop an autstic cyber kit, a full body suit and helmet with built in sensory units complete with tinted mirror effect pull down visor and we could all go out and live more expanded lives, what do you think? Just thought I would throw a line in to get A-S Warrior back into his post! Just a few thoughts. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
robert7111a Report post Posted June 11, 2012 LancsLad Your point about increasing tolerance levels through controlled exposure is absolutely right and yes, it does have to be in context. With your example however, there is no point in listening to a lorry's air brakes through an ipod because a) you are listening in quiet through headphones and the ipod is totally out of context. For this to work, the individual has (for example) to maybe stand somewhere within earshot of a motorway. Do this for about 5min/day and gradually increase exposure. This is only an example/suggestion and the individual needs to devise something that would work for him/her Noise annoyance however is not a function of AS but people with AS are more likely to find certain noises bothersome. We all have different levels of tolerance and often this decreases sharply when we are tired/stressed. Also the cause could be down to hyperacusis As LancLad rightly points out, exposure is the key to reducing annoyance and it is up to the individual how to go about exposing him/herself to the annoying sounds. This has to be frequent, controlled exposure so that the brain "learns" the sound. It is very tempting to wear earplugs to block out these annoying sounds but often, they only become louder and more bothersome when the earplugs are taken out Our ears are most sensitive between 3 - 6kHz. How we perceive and integrate sounds is down to a continuous feedback loop between the afferent and efferent nervous system between our ears and the brain. And of course, any hearing damage can cause the individual to be even more bothered by loud noise (this is called recruitment). Hearing aids amplify sounds but can filter out some frequencies. However they are not clever and if someone is speaking (at these frequencies), that person would only hear part of the speech as the hearing aid is filtering out the bothersome (but important!) frequencies for speech Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
darkshine Report post Posted June 11, 2012 Whilst a few sounds are painfull Robert's term 'bothersome' (excellent word am going to try and use it 10 times today) is so accurate to how I would describe it. I would also describe light inputs to be the same. Something such as a flickering fluorescent can really grind me down. I was once given an office with no windows and could not use it for more than a few minutes though it was in a very quiet and isolated corner of a building. Going to something like the Blackpool Illuminations is really exciting for me as are some nightclub experiences with good lighting set ups but I get to a point after a while where I simply crash because of the stimulation. Smells are also very mixed. I hate the smell of coffee and can't cope with it, my first ever panic attack was as a kid sent on an errand to a traditional coffee shop full of jars of beans and grinding machines on the counter. I have broken my nose that many times playing rugby since then that my sense of smell is pretty poor now and I think this has helped, advice if smells are difficult get someone to knee you in the face a few times! I once worked in a factory for a few weeks (actually I worked in quite a few for half a year) but one of them had blue and yellow tinged florescent lighting and it really was bothersome seriously though - it was, it made my head hurt and I spent a lot of time offering to do errands just to get out. Smells are too bad most of the time - but when I detect one that does effect me the effect is very strong - I hate the smell of liver cooking, perfume, hairspray, and ale or beer being brewed - and they all make me feel instantly sick - can't think of others but I assure you I'll know about it if I smell them but I think I'll pass on getting someone to knee me repeatedly in the face... As for lights - I like shiny bright coloured ones, although if they are strobe lights I can only handle it for a short time as it makes me feel like I'm on drugs. I guess the thing is that over time we kind of learn what is problematic and what is not. I know for example if I sense a large lorry coming up behind me whilst out on my bike and I am coming up to a sharp bend, or roundabout etc... to get ready for the air brakes going off because I don't like the sound at all. I would go as far as supporting my exposure thoughts that I have programmed my body not to react to the sounds of air brakes because to swerve might be a bit dangerous. When I do get caught out like this its as if there is a lot of energy locked inside of me which I have to get out and this takes a litle while. When I am aware of the sound coming I do not get this reaction rather it is an unpleasant in and out feeling in my body. I do that too!! Maybe I'm not so weird - or at least I'm not the only one I do it with people too though, because I know a sudden noise will make me jump out of my skin I go round in a constant state of preparedness for it - its ###### tiring!! Darkshine the thing I find difficult to take, it uspsets me in fact, is that someone such as yourself and other members of the forum might be so tunned into sensory inputs and add onto that social anxiety that getting any sort of exposure must be very difficult, because it must affect your life greatly. The levels of frustration must be enormous. I can understand for example that a lot of people are scared of heights and are very uncomfortable. I also suspect a lot of people who work on high rise buiding sites once felt this way, but through exposure they get used if not even blase about the heights. I know there are many situations I get in where I feel exposed be it through noise or smells etc... and simply think hang in there for a bit longer and absorb the environment use anxiety management techniques and things will start to settle down. Darkshine you raise a very important issue what if you can't hang in there, the best management techniques simply are not working. I can relate to this like ridding a bike up a long steep hill at a fast pace. You set off at a fast pace and try and hang in but your heart rate keeps climbing the stress keeps building, there comes a point of back off or you will explode, more likely in a well trained athelete the body would shut down to protect itself, in sport the battle is to try and argue against it but it will win eventually. I guess in a similar way you either get out or shut down. It does effect my life greatly - but I try my damned hardest to not let it completely rule me for 100% of the time - but the impact is very high and I only have the strength, energy and stamina to do so much before I crash big time. As such the level of frustration is enormous - and it feels like there's something in me that is ruling my life - and I don't get much of a life because of it - trapped in my own home with my thoughts - it isn't healthy. That's why I am on my own mission in life to try to be "normal" and by that I mean do the things I would like to do like other able-bodied people can do - I want to be able to go out and I want to be in control instead of parts of me controlling me. Management skills don't help much - so what if a person really cannot hang in there? Maybe they stay inside a lot like I do - some weeks I don't go out at all - on the best week I go outside 3 times - or maybe they do other things - I don't know.... You say about riding up a hill and being forced to back off or a person would explode - sometimes I say #### it to my problems and even thought it is torture to me I power up that hill - even though I feel like nearly dying - and I refuse to stop or give in and it becomes do or die. People have asked me in the past why I can't do that all the time - and that's cuz it takes absolutely everything I have to do that just once - and afterwards I am so tired I nearly collapse - last time I did it I spent a few days in bed because of it and I was weaker afterwards because I did myself in - it was for my mum's birthday - she wanted me there and I had to be normal for 4 days and it was like looking at an end goal of a race feeling my body and my mind crumble and refusing to stop unless I died. But those efforts are more a sign of impetuous youth - I would prefer a more mature approach in the long term, to hopefully build up resistance like in fitness, and I am unfit so I have issues that my body is not strong enough either - and this includes resistance to things like noise and movement, and also resistance to the stuff that goes through my mind too. And obviously I need to really work on resistance capacities to people in many ways because on top of confusing me, making me angry, not understanding them - I also have to struggle to pretend to be like them enough so that potential interactions are of a more positive nature. I don't want to have to rely on do or die behaviours where I literally have to force everything in me to do something that then injures me afterwards. It would be better to be able to cope. And to not have so many layers of stuff happening that makes it so hard to work things out at times. I do not know what the answers are but wonder if we could improve our tollerence levels through controlled exposure. I have never done this or been aware of experiments but they must have hapened I guess, but would listening to HGV air brakes on an i-pod for example in my sleep desentisise me to the sound, or do the sounds need to be in context? Or is it the case that in a neurotypical brain this sort of approach might work but in an autistic brain it has no effect? I simply don't know but in a way feel I should know the answer to this as it is cited as a common problem for autistics and so why are the answers to questions such as this not common knowledge. If research highlighted for example that we were prone to certain frequencys how hard would it be to develop a temporary hearing aid we could wear whilst in certain environments to filter out the worst of our problems? If all these things have been tried and tested then at least we might be a little more accepting of the issues which face us on a daily basis. You never know we could get to the stage where we develop an autstic cyber kit, a full body suit and helmet with built in sensory units complete with tinted mirror effect pull down visor and we could all go out and live more expanded lives, what do you think? Just thought I would throw a line in to get A-S Warrior back into his post! Just a few thoughts. I think exposure is probably a good thing, but I think with someone like me - I would have to do it for a long long time before it permanently worked - otherwise every time I stopped doing it my mind would find arguments to not do it - and then if I didn't do it, it becomes too easy to build it all back up into an insurmountable mountain of total cr4p - I know a lot of it is cr4p - and even the things people could say is due to AS is cr4p too - because anything that controls someone's life like it has controlled mine has got to be total BS - I don't care if my problems are valid or not - or if they can be explained or not - all I want is a life - and I'm hoping I can figure out a way to get one - I'm gonna try anyway Screw the cyber kit - I feel like enough people stare as it is Something I have a big problem with is - being around people - they make me think worse of myself when they look at me - and when they say things - how can I ever get past that? They confuse me when they seem to lie a lot or when they talk about other people behind their backs - or when they look at me and think I? am fine and I'm not and they can almost always never tell - and then I feel angry because it is like no-one cares... Even if I learn to go outside and put up with it, and even if I learn to cope with it, how can I ever mix in a society that I quite frankly do not like that much? And one that makes me feel like I'm weird... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
darkshine Report post Posted June 11, 2012 (edited) I have to say faces are normally blurred on the data picture whilst everything else is crystal clear Just had another thought - can you see people in your head? I struggle to "see" people in my head - even people I have known a long time, or people I love, I get the weirdest caricature of mixed pieces - I might remember a hairstyle they had for ages or see a big nose or glasses or something like a beard or tarty make-up - but more subtle features get lost - I only ever "see" the stand out bits of people. It makes me wonder what would happen if I witnessed a crime and saw the offender cuz unless they had really outstanding features I couldn't describe much at all - I tried it once and the first thing I said was "they had a head" Edited June 11, 2012 by darkshine Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
A-S warrior Report post Posted June 16, 2012 wow! havent checked this topic for a while, massive replys, my dyslexic eyes couldnt possibly know were to start reading all of this. was there any questions for me? or any comments you want? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
darkshine Report post Posted June 16, 2012 It was about social situations and stuff - up to you if you read it or not - but I don't think there were any questions. It does say a lot about different social aspects though - you'd need to start at post #17 and work through almost 20 posts - a good thing for insomnia possibly... I guess there could be info there you could use from the 4 of us - everyone made some interesting points I thought. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shnoing Report post Posted June 16, 2012 wow! havent checked this topic for a while, massive replys, my dyslexic eyes couldnt possibly know were to start reading all of this. was there any questions for me? or any comments you want? Would you say that analyzing social situations could be described as (one of) your special interest(s) (or your focus), and if so, did this help you in planning coping strategies re. social situations? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
A-S warrior Report post Posted June 17, 2012 Would you say that analyzing social situations could be described as (one of) your special interest(s) (or your focus), and if so, did this help you in planning coping strategies re. social situations? awnser to all 3 is yes, i metodically watched kids getting beaten up and picked on and litreally sat there with a cold hearted look on my face mentally taking notes, completely un phased by the situation. i had the same look on my face when i was picked on also, i had a look on my face colder than a phone call from the ex wife. i was busy learning and taking on board everything. when a lad was doing well with a girl i again would mentally take notes. i was always impressed by the teachers that could silence a room of chatty teenagers just by walking in the room, i wanted that same respect. i would watch and observe these teachers and try and adapt there traits on to me. so in summery this was an obsession for me, to not just be accepted but to be on top and dominant. maybe im a power hungry control freak deep down. maybe i have an ego so big it needs its own postcode. all i knew was i wasnt going to let my a-s beat me. and whatever i want in life, i put in 100% time and effort and think about nothing else until the job is done. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
