school not meeting sons needs - so guess how the lea are going to resolve it?

[bjkmummy]

hes in a mainstream primary - only attending mornings and the meeting today with the lea decided that hes not coping at this mainstream school so another mainstream school could be the way forward - really not quite sure what to say.

 

they also said that after following an emergency review they have to amend the statement within 8 weeks - they dont accept our amendment or the schools recommendations so as they have had 6 weeks we told them to finalise in 2 weeks which they tenatively agreed to.

 

they say he can continue at his present school in the mornings - maybe he could work in a corridor by himself with support. they want him to be seen by their nhs OT as they say our private OT cannot make recommendations regarding what would be a suitable school placement.

 

they say the school have not provided any evidence that he is not coping or that they cannot meet his needs. they also say that autism outreach have yet to be involved because the school have not given me a form to sign which they sent to them. school say no form has ever been received via LEA

 

my head hurts right now - oh and of course them not accepting he needs a special school is nothing to do with money. they cannot understand why a statement only 7 months old is not working.

[Sally44]

Try to get his present school to put in writing as much as they can about what support they currently provide and how they feel it is not working, and what kind of school and support they think he needs.

 

A SEND Panel are not going to be happy with "mainstream not working, so lets try another mainstream."

 

My LA wanted to keep on trying to reintroduce my son back into the school he was refusing.

 

We said it was just "more of the same, which was not working", and the Panel agreed.

 

Whatever they suggest placement wise, you must go and visit and compare it with what his former school provided and what he needed.

 

And OT can comment on what is within her remit. If she thinks from an OT perspective that his current school cannot meet his needs, and that the environment is not suitable for him, she can say that.

 

But remember what the LA/NHS cannot provide ie. sensory integration therapy. Has she assessed him and said he has a sensory processing disorder? What about dyspraxia. You have to find out specifically why his current school cannot meet his needs and what your choice of placement can provide.

[KezT]

My LEA tried that one on me too - he's not coping in mainstream school A, s we can try mainstream school B or a year, then presumably mainstream school, C, D and E and then he'll be 16 so we don't care!

 

I asked them what school B (C, D or E) could offer that A couldn't? They had not answer. Then I reminded them of all the reasons he went to A in the first place (single building site, smallest school in county, good record of inclusion etc) and the training & experience the staff had with him and that another school would be starting from scratch.

 

To be fair they dropped the idea pretty quickly when challenged and it never even made it onto any written report.

 

We do have the bonus that school is agreeing they can not meet his needs.....

 

In some circumstances, it may be the correct reSponse - if school A is not good at inclusion, if it is a difficult environment for him or if they just aren't bothering! If school B has an autism unit attached or other special services etc. LOng before we got to Statementing stage, we moved my son from mainstream primary A to mainstream primary B because A just refused to speak to us and labelled son as "naughty" - he was 5 years old and on the way to school refusing & a PRU! AlthougH the transition was difficult, school B did manage to include him in the majority of classwork, take him on trips and get him DX'd and Statemented!

 

In that case,moving him from one mainstream school to another was the best decision we ever made:) (although we are now fighting to get him out of mainstream)

[bjkmummy]

his current mainstream have made it clear they cannot meet his needs and theres lot of evidence etc - will be interesting when the minutes from the meeting arrive to see if the lea have left the comment in - if not i will be asking questions! they want an nhs OT report but they are stalling over that as well. they are just stalling over a child who is in school part time only at the moment. the other school i think they are trying to consider does have autism class but the children are very severe and the head has said she would not place a verbal child in the autism class and i have that in writing plus i have no trust in that school - my elder son there and leaves next week. they do expect the children to access the mainstream and it is a school twice the size of the current school. joes school have done everything that they could for joe - it mainstream that is not right - he needs an asd specific placement. this is also his 4th primary and he is only in year 3 so the next school has to be the right school not a cheap stop gap for the lea!

 

i will try and speak to the school again tomorrow and get the head and class teacher to put in writing more about joe. then await the statement coming back in the next 2 weeks which i know it wont but if im honest that could work in my favour as again will show the lea delaying yet again.

[Sally44]

Make and type up your own notes too.

 

We had a meeting in school [husband and I, SENCO, SALT, EP, Specialist Teacher], and literally everything my husband and I told them [eg. referred to Clinical Psychology who were so concerned at his self harm that they referred on to CAHMS for Psychiatrist assessment, attempted suicide etc etc] was not included. It was like we were not at the meeting and had not said anything. I said ClinPsych said he was typical of a child not coping in school. CAHMS said he was overloaded and overwhelmed on a daily basis. But absolutely nothing in the minutes. Just how well everyone thought he was doing and how they had no concerns at all. And that was eventhough he was vomitted regularly in school, had made no progress - infact had lost skills and regressed. It reminded me of the childrens' storytale "the kings new costume" where everyone praises the king for his fine clothes, and only a child is innocent enough to tell the king that he is naked." It really was like they were talking about another child.

 

So I sent in my copy of the minutes and asked 'why' they had not included any of the information and advice we had told them. They apologised and circulated a copy of our minutes to everyone. They did not respond to the question of why they had omitted everything we had said. I was so glad my husband had been with me, otherwise it was almost unbelieveable how it happened.

 

And from then on I used two dictaphones to record verbatim what everyone said. That was even more hilarious hearing everyone sat around a table trying not to admit he had any difficulties and trying not to agree to provide anything, whilst at the same time trying to sound concerned and trying to put together a 'return to school' package. Lots of blah, blah, blah, with no content at all. Infact at the second meeting my husband said "we have now had two meetings with everyone attending and we still do not have any kind of package in place, and none of you have explained how you will support him or how he will return to school."

Edited July 15, 2012 by Sally44

[bjkmummy]

my dh was at the meeting as well and we both did take notes - will carefully check the minutes when they come as i am expecting that things have been omitted - toward the end of the meeting it was agreed that joe staying at his current school is an interim measure only and they will look at school placement once they get their NHS OT report but i dont believe them - think they are stalling for time and will probably back down but they will take us to hell and back first before we get there, my next headache which im already thinking about is getting an ed psych report done but dont have a clue where to start with that

[Sally44]

Your son will be in year 5 in Septemer?

 

Could he transfer immediately to your choice of placement and stay there for the secondary years?

 

If he could, and if your choice of school has a suitable peer group [age and diagnoses and social/emotiona/sensory wise], then yes get an EP report.

[bjkmummy]

no - he will be year 4 in september, this is going to drag on and isnt going to be resolved anytime soon. thank you for the emails - has given me plenty to think about - my concern now is that the school i favour most at this stage has OT come into school one day a week - is this enough or do they ideally need someone on site much more - our OT has dx him with senspry processing modulation

[Sally44]

Has your OT recommended Sensory Integration Therapy to be delivered by a suitably qualified OT and has she stated how many hours 1:1 is needed each week, and how he should be supported during the week by a trained TA, with 1:1 support in PE [if he has dyspraxia], and a hand writing programme if he has those difficulties and how the environment could/should be modified so that he does not get overloaded/overwhelmed and what school should do if he becomes overloaded and how they will recognise this.

 

Whatever input you get into the Statement now will then be tested by seeing how he copes with that level of support. If progress is not seen, then it means he needs more OT input.

 

If your choice of school has OT coming into school once a week, how many children is that for? And how much time would she spend 1:1 with your son, and reviewing his programme?

 

If you don't get the school of your choice, you need your OT report to be specific so that the Panel will order the LA to buy that support in at whatever school he is placed at. But hopefully that will be at your choice.

 

If you do get he placement of choice, would he remain at the same school for his secondary years? If he would, then you have to decide if you have enough evidence to go all out to get an immediate transfer to that placement now [because they have a suitable peer group], and he would continue there for secondary.

 

I know that he Tribunal Panel will be looking to see how your son's sensory processing needs are being met. That is why you need the disorder diagnosed so it is in part 2, because once in part 2 there has to be suitable provision to meet that need and so your OT's report should detail that. So what does it say?

[jordansmum33ok]

This happened with my son..the school was telling me verbally that they could not meet his needs

but it has to be written and then the LEA will try and challenge that, but our school at the time

had plenty of exclusion reports etc and clearly they could not meet his needs..it just has to be proven

and somewhere in the report its better if its worded "in a mainstream setting"

good luck x

[bjkmummy]

just wrote a long reply and it disappeared - the OT report list in details all the recommendation and support from OT he would need including the level of qualification and how many hours OT support he needs in a year. she does also say that he will never cope in mainstream PE so more specialist placement needed but due to all of his sensory issues he needs a specialist school where they will have more staff qualified to help joe plus the enviroment will be better for him - the report is incredibly detailed and she has done an amazing job - the lea even did say that it is a very good report and everything is quanitified in it - the lea just dont accept it and still want the NHS OT report for balance but we still have had no contact to say when this will happen.

 

we should get the minutes of the last meeting on friday then we will amend them if needed - if no minutes arrive then we will type up our own and send them to them. we should have some type of statement back by the end of next week as the sen officer said they had to finalise withn 8 weeks - her saying this was wrong but ipsea have advised me not to correct her but also to make sure that the conversation is in the minutes.

 

my head hurts even more as i get various members of the lea phone me to offer 'support' as they are worried about me. been told to day that they dont understand why school have said they cant meet his needs but allow him in school part time when they should exlude him - what the school are doing is not consistent, with extra support Joe will be okay, that all the special schools are full, that i have to allow the lea the time they need, nhs OT report is really needed blah blah blah - decided from this point not going to speak to a single person from the LA as they are all in it together, all singing from the same hymm sheet - they must really think i am completely stupid and that my comments are not being fed back. made it completely clear that i will fight for Joe to get him the right placement. im amazed at all this compassion and yet not one single offer of anything helpful whatsoever just more LA jargon

[Sally44]

This is an extract I used in our own son's case. It is taken from the Jim Rose Review into Dyslexia. In his report he states that he found that children were not being diagnosed, and were not receiving the support/provision they needed to improve their reading skills. He states that his review found that local authorities often refused to accept the findings of other professionals when they were not employed by the local authority. This is the extract:

 

 

The review has heard

that assessments prepared by such professionals are

sometimes not accepted by schools and local authorities,

especially if the professional concerned is not a local

authority employee. What matters is the professional’s

accredited training, experience, competence, continuing

professional development and understanding of the

educational context, not who happens to be his/ her employer

– therefore the review considers that schools and local

authorities would need to provide sound reasons for not

55

Identifying and Teaching Children and Young People with Dyslexia and Literacy Difficulties

accepting the outcome of an assessment from a suitably

qualified professional.

 

I wrote a letter to our LA, using that quote, and asking the LA what their "sound reasons" were for not accepting the professionals findings in their reports as I had submitted to the LA.

 

This was relating to dyslexia. The LA EP even said at our AR that she did not think my son had dyslexia [eventhough he was 10 years old and illiterate!]. When I lodged a formal complaint, she assessed him one month later and stated she did think he had dyslexia - but she did not state to what degree. Well we already had that in our reports. It was to a severe degree. But anyway, the LA EP cannot just dismiss another qualified EP's assessments and findings. It is totally unprofessional and I asked her to explain her decision. She did not respond. So it might be worth using this quote yourself, especially as it comes from Sir Jim Rose who was commissioned by the government at the time to look into SpLD, specifically dyslexia.

 

I did manage to contact Jim Rose himself, and we did have some email correspondence, which I again submitted as part of my appeal. So, if you think there is anyone who could help your case, do try to track them down and ask them the questions.

 

For example, my son was put into a reading programme that was totally inappropriate for a child with ASD and Dyslexia. I found the original head of the research team that had carried out the original research [which my LA claimed their 'reading programme' was based on]. I asked them what kind of reading difficulties their trial group had. Did it include any children with autism and did it include any children with dyslexia. They replied that their research had been mainly for non-english speaking children, or children who had no other diagnosis or SpLD who were falling behind with literacy. They said it was supposed to be led by a qualified teacher [not an unqualified TA], and that it was supposed to be 'whole class' [whereas my son's school were withdrawing a small group of children to participate in this reading scheme]. But the point was, they put in writing to me that their research had never been intended for children with autism or dyslexia and therefore it was not proven as being relevent or useful for children like my son, and therefore his lack of progress was evidence that this reading programme was ineffective and irrelevant and did not meet his needs.

 

I don't know if you will find the whole review useful. But this is the link https://www.educatio...-2009DOM-EN.pdf

 

Again, Jim Rose talks about specialist teachers with specialist training being used. And the SEN Code of Practice also details that one type of provision for a child with SpLD is for them to receive 1:1 input from a specialist teacher. LA's conveniently try to hedge around this. But a SEN Panel will not.

 

Yes .... jargon ..... I remember that well. I think Inclusion Officers should end up being promoted to become MP's due to their ability to talk non-stop and yet never answer the question.

 

As you say, lots of sympathy and no actual support. that is why I started recording them. Imagine 2+ hour meetings with 10+ professionals trying to offer sympathy, not admit to anything, and not offer to provide anything. They turned it into an art form.

 

Dont lose heart. Write letters that ask specific questions and see what response, if any you get. This is all evidence you can submit that you asked the questions and the LA could not/would not commit.

 

Don't worry too much about what the LA says. When you get to the tribunal, it is not based on LA criteria or what they do or don't do. It is based on law. And that is VERY different. Educational Law, from a Statement point of view, is almost like a mathematical equation. If you have a report that states the need they will want that included in part 2, the Panel are looking then for the provision to meet that need to be cut and pasted and put into part 3. And then they look at the overall needs and provision and have to decide if the parental choice of school can meet that need. If it can, but the LA say it is an unreasonable use of their resources [ie. costs too much], then the Panel will be looking to see IF the LA maintained school can meet your son's needs and provide the provision and therapy. You need to prove that they cannot.

Edited July 18, 2012 by Sally44

[bjkmummy]

thanks sally - the current LA maintained school he is in clearly cannot meet his needs which the school have stated over and over again - will be interesting to see if the LA do mention again about moving him to another another mainstream school which was one he went to last year and it went terribly wrong as the LA said he could have an autism place which they put in writing even though he didnt have a statement and the school dumped him in the mainstream - i moved him after 6 weeks to this school and then got a statement. I did lodge a complaint last year about how he was treated so that will be logged somewhere. the LA are now trying to say he can go back to that school but in the specialist provision - ive told them no way - hes been there and he failed, i have no trust in the school whatsoever. they had 2 specialist classes there - one class closes today (my elder son is in that class) the school have closed it with no real mention to anyone. the other class has non verbal children in it so would nto be a suitable peer group for Joe - also have it in writing from the head of the school that she owuld not place a verbal child in the class plus Joe would be expected to be in mainstream 50/50 and they dont always get support in the mainstream and the school is a very busy and noisy school with more than double the number of children than are at his current school.

[Sally44]

Okay, so they are going to argue that the autism unit is additional ASD specific support that is more than he has currently had.

 

Did they give any reason at the time as to why they did not put him in the unit?

 

An Autism Unit is going to be perceived as additional support and provision, and so you are going to have to look at what it does provide, and how and why it is not suitable for your son.

 

I am assuming that like most autism units it is probably going to contain children that are more severely autistic than your son. So you need to find that out. I think I sent you a letter that I sent to my son's school asking questions about their unit. That is the kind of things you need to know. Autism Units often don't have any teacher with an addtional ASD qualification either. The peer group maybe none verbal or challenging behavours, which is not suitable for your son. They may not be working at the same academic level as your son. The LA obviously thought he was more capable than those in the unit to have kept him mainstream.

 

Then you need to prove that he needs the therapies that your choice of school has on site [i presume that is SALT and OT?]. Which the school/LA will not provide automatically. It will need to be bought in. So you need to prove he needs those professionals employed on site to deliver the high level of therapy he needs flexibly across the week. His sensory needs may need additional extra curricular support as and when needed, which an OT coming into a mainstream school or Unit once a week simply cannot do. And you need the EP and OT to be describing a small group teaching environment of about 8 children per class.

 

I sent you that extract from the Jim Rose Review because LAs often refuse to accept outside professionals' reports. There is no excuse for it. This review said that the LA had to provide "sound reasons" for not accepting a report, and the fact that they were not employed by the LA was not a sufficient reason. So you can use this argument for the fact that the LA are seeking a further OT report when you already have one.

 

From your post you seem to understand the arguments for why the unit cannot meet his needs. If the unit also feeds children across for mainstream lessons, that again is not suitable for your son. Everyone knows that mainstream environment/teaching is not working for him. His sensory needs are such that he needs to be permanently in a small group teaching environment with a suitable peer group of other ASD children being taught by a specialist teacher with an addtiional ASD qualification with professionals on site to deliver the therapy he needs flexibly across the week. I think you have a good case on that basis.

[bjkmummy]

got the minutes from the meeting today - they are looking at the school with the autism unit although dont mention the unit just the school. they seem to be making much more in the minutes than i remember about autism outreach who has yet to even see him - they want her to go in and work with joe and then if she 'cures' him he should be okay - she has only been in post since may and is not a qualified teacher. we agreed to joe staying in the school in the interim only whilst another school placement is sought. that is also said in the minutes and how we want a specialist placement but then the lea refer to joes statement as a 'mainstream' statement hence why an alternative mainstream is being sought. they accept his current school cannot meet his needs. its all very wishy washy and ive gone through and lots of things have been said - im worried about the part where it seems as though i agree that if autism outreach working with him is a 'success' then i would agree to him staying at the school which i absolutely did not agree to - how do you measure 'sucess' - it does then say i said it would be unlikely i would reassess and basically leave him in the current school

 

they state that an OT cannot make recommendations about school placement - 'the LA did not accept that it was within the remit of an OT to make this type of recommendation'. it does mention how we keep stating that we want a specialist placement so thats good but i was very disheartened reading it especially as they are clearly still thinking mainstream is the right enviroment

 

it also says that the lea have 8 weeks from review to finalise the statement - i said they had had 6 weeks so they will try and finalise in 2 weeks - what they are going to finalise i have no idea as they agree with none of our evidence whatsoever. they want NHS OT for 'balance'

 

so it seems that they accept no evidence from our OT, teacher, head teacher but will accept the recommendations from autism outreach who is not even a qualified teacher.

 

they also contradict themselves by saying our OT cannot make recommendations then it says this ' mr lawes queried what would happen if the NHS OT assessment recommended Joe needs special schol they replied that the OT will be part of the evidence considered' she actually said that they would accept the NHS OT recommendations in the meeting.

 

they now say the OT assessment 'might' happen over the summer holidays whereas last week they were saying that it will probably happen - noone has yet contacted me.

 

at the end the LA agreed to contact the school =- they havent yet and they did put that they would either in the minutes. teh head is unhappy as noone from the lea has contacted her to explain what is going on.

 

the LA also said in the meeting autism ooutreach not yet seen Joe as the school had not completed the necessary form they had sent them - when i spoke to the school they said no form has ever been sent. in the minutes this has changed to that we agreed to complete the form to share information about Joe with autism outreach

 

so - i am going to respond and say i dont accept the minutes as accurate and again list the areas where i think things have been missed out, words have been put into our mouths etc. a friend read it earlier and she was shocked at all the poor grammar so i need to change that as well!!

 

re the other mainstream with unit - dont think the lea have realised yet that the school have closed most of teh asd provision as of yesterday!!!

[Sally44]

Don't worry too much about them saying the Statement says 'mainstream' and so that is where he has to stay.

The whole point of a Statement is that it should be a true reflection of need and provision required, which ultimately determines the kind of placement.

You have in writing that his current mainstream placement is not working and they have said they cannot meet his needs.

You have your OT report.

You have medical evidence that his vomitting etc is due to anxiety.

 

I think what you need to put in writing is to state that above. And then ask them 'what additional provison/support, professional input or therapy could be provided at xxxx in the mainstream setting which his current placement cannot provide?"

Because otherwise it is just more of the same which has not worked.

Does his current, or the other mainstsream, or the other mainstreams' Autism Unit have any teacher with an additional qualification for teaching children with an ASD.

Is there anyone qualified within the school/LA to provide 1:1 therapy/support for a child diagnosed with a Sensory processing Disorder?

What teaching qualifications and ASD specific qualifications does the Autism Outreach person have? Is there more than one person [because someone has to cover if she is ill - otherwise the LA could not fulfill the Statement]. And is her employed full time, how many schools does she cover, is her job permanent, how many children does she have on her caseload and does she go into the school to work 1:1 with the child and does she carry out training of the school staff.

 

And asap after the summer holidays you need to go and visit this unit and the mainstream school and ask all those questions [in a letter] that I pm'd you.

 

Then you submit all that evidence. Because at the Tribunal the LA may say that your son will get input from the Autism Outreach person. Which sounds substantial and sounds great. But if you can say that she works alone, has no teaching or ASD specific qualification and has a caseload of 100+ children over 10 schools, then it is obvious that any "input" is going to minimal, probably advisory, and probably via the telephone. So your clarification of what the LA can provide could be the tipping point where the Panel decide that your LA and their school cannot meet his needs.

[bjkmummy]

Yes re input being minimal. Current school have said Joe can stay in the interim on the basis interim only and they expect autism outreach to be in school one full morning per week. Will email lea and say that's min I would accept but in it is interim only until they find a suitable special school. The cuurent school say so far all autism outreach have done is advise - she is the only person, works part time only and term time only. We have 7000 kids in county so she will be pretty stretched - I know 40 kids have statements so must be at least a 100 kids she supports. No one at his school has asd qualification. The other school has someone who is very qualified however I don't think long term they will place him in the other school and I'm confident that I can knock it out. They haven't even consulted them yet. If they really wanted him to go there they could move him in a week so we keep saying no and keep up the pressure whilst also gathering evidence we need.

[Sally44]

So make sure you write to her and ask her the specifics.