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cathcart3303

SEN Statements

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I think the fact that the LA are still saying mainstream shows they don't give a damn and really haven't got a clue. You need to find out how they envisage your son transitioning from being at home all the time to being in mainstream (or any) school.

 

Just looked at Gretton website. Looks like a good option.

 

You need to focus on getting your appeal in now. Do you know what you need to do, and how to go through with a fine tooth comb etc.? Are you still getting advice from IPSEA?

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I have a question about the Final Statement. It only has 2 appendages which I asked to be added but the proposed was also missing letters which the caseworker said he would add. Should I not be sent all the documents attached to the final statement or do I need to attach the proposed statement as well?

 

Thanks for advice.

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It might be worth phoning SEND and asking them directly.

 

I know that reports are supposed to be appended but i'm not sure about correspondence. So do check it, as sometimes correspondence can have as much information regarding identifying needs and provision required as any report. But what was so important in those letters, and has that advice been included in the Statement?

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I have an idea that the statement appendicies should include all the advice that was received, and that as parents we have the right to submit any advice we like to the process. So by implication it should be included in the appendix.

 

I really don't see why the LA should complain - other than shear laziness

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Anything that was attached to proposed statement should be attached to final. If you gave a written response to the proposed statement then that should also be attached to final. Anything that you provided as your parental input to the statutory assessment should have been attached to the proposed (and final), not sure whether any ad-hoc letters would be included if it was not marked as being parental input for statutory assessment process.

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Just to clarify - they should have sent you all attachments with the final, you shouldn't have to add these yourself. Normally on front page of statement they list the attachments.

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Yes they have listed the attachments but only attached the ones I requested after meeting regarding proposed statement. The proposed did not have all the attachments specified in list anyway.

 

Thanks. I have a meeting on Wednesday. Will ask for clarification then.

 

May have something to do with case worker saying he would send an amended final statement once the placement for independent funding had been agreed. All very well saying that but then to name alternative mainstream when one is found which is suitable has just made me angry and put my son in another Catch 22 situation where he has no school he can attend in September.

 

Spoke to MP office and they said they had not come across another case where the child has been out of school for so long without any education or support being provided for them. I wondered how many others have spent such a long time out and when education otherwise was provided?

Edited by cathcart3303

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My son's been out of school since end of Feb 2012. Started receiving some home tuition end of March 2013 (so 1 yr 1 month after being out of school). We've now found a school, next hurdle getting LA to agree (tribunal end Sept)

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My son refused school in January 2011 and began his independent school in December 2011. From about October, the LA had arranged for a teacher to come to our house, collect my son and take him to a special school where they would do some fun things together [just to get him out the house really]. Then she took him into his former primary school, but again 1:1 in the store cupboard [he would not go into classes, or into the playground].

 

I did ask my LA for home tuition when he was out of school for first 3 weeks. The LA responded by saying they would get in touch with the Educational Welfare Officer [they only deal with bad parents not sending their kids into school]. I asked he CAHMS Psychiatrist to send the LA Inclusion Officer a letter. The Psychiatrist contacted our GP and together they drafted a letter and sent it to the LA. The EWO did not become involved. But no tuition either, as the LA said they needed a letter from a consultant saying that he was medically unfit for school. We got that.

 

So then the LA asked the Hospital School co-ordinator to come and see my son, as they hold lessons for sick children in hospital. She met with me and my son and wrote her recommendation that the hospital school was for NT children who were actuely ill, and that my son was not suitable for that school and that they could not meet his needs. She recommended he was placed in a fully resourced independent school specifically for children with an ASD.

 

The LA did not like that and wrote to me saying that this woman did not have the authority to make that statement. They wrote to her supervisor asking for it to be retracted, and she wouldn't retract it! I could have kissed her.

 

Anyway, LA arranged for this special teacher to see my son twice a week for 1.5 hour sessions. Often he refused to go. If he agreed to go he was home within the hour. He showed no signs of improving or wanting to return to his old school.

 

At the Tribunal the Panel agreed that it was highly unlikely that he would ever agree to return to his former school due to his experiences there. He had missed most of year 5 and the beginning of year 6. He simply would not have coped with a reintroduction to his former primary for 6 months, and then have to deal with a total move again to a much larger secondary mainstream school.

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Caseworker has said commissioners have spoken to a school who think they will be able to take my son in September, BESD school very small. Have spoken to them but is would be a good journey everyday for my son and he does not travel well plus transition even with some outreach over summer is not suddenly going to happen in September. Plus no specialist ASD just experience of working with. I don't want to set my son up to fail. :(

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Hmm, I don't know your son, but I doubt that a BESD school is the right place for an ASD child like him. The behaviour methods they will be using are unlikely to be suitable for ASD children - they will be treating the behaviour and won't be looking at the causes of it as should be done for ASD children. This sounds like a money saving exercise. Talk to SOS!SEN or IPSEA about the suggested school.

 

You must make sure that you get your appeal in - don't trust that the LA will find the most appropriate school.

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Hmm, I don't know your son, but I doubt that a BESD school is the right place for an ASD child like him. The behaviour methods they will be using are unlikely to be suitable for ASD children - they will be treating the behaviour and won't be looking at the causes of it as should be done for ASD children. This sounds like a money saving exercise. Talk to SOS!SEN or IPSEA about the suggested school.

 

You must make sure that you get your appeal in - don't trust that the LA will find the most appropriate school.

I was just about to say the same thing myself.

 

It is highly unlikely that an BESD school is going to be appropriate for an ASD child.

 

Don't forget you have the absolute right to a mainstream education - don't let the LA name a special school unless you are totally happy with it - if necessary ask them to finalise the statement with part 4 empty and go straight to appeal on in

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I also agree.

 

If the LA have suggested it, it maybe worth visiting and asking questions of the SENCO, so that you have information to hand at tribunal that it is not suitable.

 

Things you are looking for are: class size. How many of those pupils have a diagnosis of an autistic spectrum disorder. And how many of them have a diagnosis of any other disorder he has such as speech disorder, dyspraxia, sensory processing disorder, specific learning difficulty.

 

What is the criteria for children going to this school. Do they have challenging behaviour. What kind of diagnoses do they have. What is their cognitive ability.

 

What addtional Autistic specific qualifications to the teaching staff have, and how many of them have that addtional qualification.

 

Do they use Autistic specific approaches to learning such as TEACCH.

 

Do they have a speech therapist or occupational therapist on site [again it needs your son's Statement to detail xx hours of 1:1 therapy from a suitably qualified SALT experienced in working with children with autism and speech and communication/Social interaction difficulties. Do they have a social communication therapy 1:1 and in groups, and is it ASD specific. Do they have life skills and do they generalise learning from the therapy sessions into the classroom, playground, life skills etc.

 

Same for OT. Especially sensory processing disorder. If he is over sensitive then a noisy classroom is going to be impossible for him. The same if he has dyspraxia or problems with short term/working memory. His work needs differentiating for him

 

If you have all these answers, if the LA says, at tribunal, that your son needs to be in class sizes of xx and that this BESD school can deliver that. You can refer to your file notes [which you will have submitted as part of your evidence], that this school is not ASD specific. The children have challenging behaviour that would frighten your son. The children do not have speech and language and social communication difficulties/disorder like your son and therefore he would not be able to form social relationships with them, could be taken advantage of by these children, and that there is not suitable peer group.

 

That there is no SALT or OT on site - or if there is, that they are working with the emotional behaviour difficulties of the children and are not working on ASD specific difficulties, or using ASD therapy/approaches etc etc.

 

So you just point out how each and every aspect of the school and its provision is not suitable for your son.

Edited by Sally44

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Having spoken to HT it only takes up to 10 children. Just had eight yr 11 leave. Has been given 3 names by LA but only 1 other year 10 September. In his words used to be more challenging behaviour (children excluded from school, out of education for 5 years)! OFSTED report did not offer GCSE 2011 and able pupils were waiting for others to catch up. My son questioned the point of school on transition as he had already covered that work so not really looked at my sons needs when suggesting this school. 3 teachers. Only experience of working with 'mild' Asperger's and no qualifications. No therapies on site but as charity could arrange. At 16 have to move on. Long distance from home and son has travel sickness badly. No proper formalised transition plan.

 

They have adapted classroom environment, do not have school in the title and have a farm with animals.

 

 

Went to have a look round Asperger specific special school with residential boarding Monday to Friday. Was very impressed with their ethos. I am going to look round again with my son.

 

Edited by trekster

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You need to know class sizes.
How classes are grouped is it by age or ability.
What therapy is provided as standard
Can they provide the therapy your sons Statement/reports say he needs as part of their standard fee.
Is there anything your son has that they cannot meet eg. dyslexia. If so can they get quotes for a qualified teacher that can both teach and assess [tell them to look on PATOSS website].
Are other pupils at similar KS level as your son.
Can/do pupils take GCSEs [if your son is going to be at that level].
Does the school go up to age 19.
What Social skills groups to they have.
What life skills do they teach.
What addtional qualifications do their teachers have.
What is the main diagnosis of children at that school.
What is the entry criteria.
Does your LA already have pupils at this school.

The other school you have visited sounds more like MLD and challenging behaviour. We looked at a school like that. We said it was not suitable as it was not ASD specific. That challenging behaviour would frighten my son. That those children were not a suitable peer group from a social skills point of view. That teaching was not geared towards ASD difficulties. And that working with animals would be impossible for my son due to his sensory processing disorder [he cannot stand animal smells], and also his OCD fears of contamination and germs and high levels of anxiety. We also said that my sons 'behaviour' was due to his ASD/OCD/Anxiety/Dyspraxia etc needs not being met.

 

 

 

Is the ASD secondary school part of a particular group ie. SENAD or Priory?

Edited by trekster

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The school I want to take my son to look round is ASD/ Asperger specific. Everything I have been telling the LA my son needs and the professionals have said is at this school. They take children up to 19 years of age. They do GCSE's and go to local college if able for 'A' levels. The social skills are built in to everything they do. The residential houses are 3 or 4 bedroom with every child having individualised plans.

 

There was no padded room like the ASD unit attached to mainstream. My son would have to board as it is 90 minutes drive away or a train and bus journey.

 

The LA do already have children at that school. There are children the same age as my son, something I am not hearing at the BESD school.

 

My dilemma is the LA want me to look round BESD school this Friday which I agreed to but I now want to take my son to see the other school that day. I am conscious it is getting towards the end of term.

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see if you can change the date to look around the BESD school.

 

Also, this independent ASD school will need your son to go there for a trial period [usually 3 days]. And they need to send you a letter offering your son a placement there and you need to submit that as part of your evidence to SEND before the deadline for submissions.

 

Have you lodged an appeal yet? If not you will have approx 4 months from the time you lodge an appeal. However IF you are going to need the ASD specific school to confirm they have a place for him [and to confirm that that place will be available until the decision of the SEND Tribunal], depending on what the school says about them sending that letter whether they need to see your son now, or beginning next school year.

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I went to look at this BESD 'school' and they have offered a unique way to see if my son will engage over the summer holidays but what happens in September? There is no formal plan. LA have sent letter of an offer for this school.

 

As luck would have it I have found another school which is 35 minutes drive away which is ASD specific and opened a centre for academically more able children last September. I am going to look at it next Tuesday. On paper it is better than the one in Cambridge as it also has a clinical psychologist and psychiatrist on the team. They have also mentioned doing a home assessment and obviously a transition plan.

 

I am really hoping I will like it.

 

I have told the additional needs coordinator I am looking at this school and if I think it is more suitable shall be putting this in writing. He said there was another panel at beginning of August but questioned whether there would be funding. (Not my problem). I have until the middle of August to put my request into tribunal. :police:

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The LA must go with your parental choice of placement UNLESS they have something cheaper - BUT EQUIVALENT that can meet all his needs. Sounds like the one you have found can meet his needs.

 

Your son has mental health issues regarding ASD/Anxiety and therefore this school can meet his needs. Have the NHS met his needs. Have you asked them in writing how many hours per term they can work with your son in school? Do that. They will probably respond that they are an 'acute' service, and just offer a series of sessions. Your son needs on-going support and therapy, and he needs it in the place he spends most of his time and has most of his issues, ie. in school.

 

Get as much in writing about his needs/difficulties and ask them to quantify and specify what provision he needs.

 

From a social point of view he is not suitable for the LA school because they are children whose problems are due to neglect, or abuse, or personality disorder. Your sons social interaction and communication needs are due to neurological differences ie. an ASD, and this ASD specific school will work with him 1:1 and in group therapy to improve those skills [and you want this school to see your son, and assess/observe him and write a report/letter for evidence for the tribunal - they need to offer him a place - and they need to send someone to the Tribunal ie. the Deputy Head or SENCO, who can argue how he needs a place with them, and what they do that is different to what the LA is offering, and how your son will benefit from this support and therapy to make progress to being more independent as an adult.]

 

Just don't give in to the LA. List all the things the LA school does not have, cannot provide. And go to tribunal.

 

We changed our tribunal appeal and included part 4, placement, a couple of months after I had lodged the appeal on parts 2 and 3. At the later stage it became obvious that he was not coping in his former school, had refused school and was not attending, and there was no way he would ever agree to go back. So I amended the Appeal and just said that after a period of time and further assessment it was now clear that xxxx school could not meet my son's needs and therefore parents request a placement at xxxx school, which is an independent special school for children with ASD/Speech and Communication Disorders.

 

Then leave it up to the LA to try to prove they can meet his needs in their choice of placement.

 

You have to think of every argument they will use, and have your evidence and counter argument ready.

 

My LA even give funding for an OT to go into my sons former primary school [as a way of trying to prove they could meet his OT needs]. But the OT was not qualified to the level needed to deliver a Sensory Integration Programme, and the funding was for 3 hours a week for the whole school. My son gets that for himself alone where he is currently placed.

 

Make sure you lodge your appeal and don't miss the deadline.

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And you don't say "xxxx is more suitable", you say "xxxxx school is the ONLY one that can meet my sons needs." And that is true.

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Hope the visit to the ASD specific one goes well.

 

I've lost track. Have you already put in an appeal and date for final evidence is mid August, or do you have until mid- August to put in appeal? I thought if the 2 month time period after getting final statement fell in August then you had till end of August to put in an appeal? Although, certainly best to get it in as soon as poss.

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Sorry, just scrolled back, statement was mid June so I see you're talking about putting appeal in. If you do need extra time, then check that rule out about August (I might be wrong)

 

Will you be appealing Part 2 and Part 3 as well as Part 4? This is normally the recommended thing to do - and is possibly necessary even if they do agree to the school you want as those parts need to be watertight.

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Went to look at school and I feel it can meet his needs eg ASD and Significant Anxiety/Depression.

 

Have written a letter to panel explaining my reasons for this school including only just diagnosed Depression so BESD school not appropriate. Panel meeting is on the 7th August. I am always full of hope that some one at the LEA will see sense and name an appropriate ASD school. But history has told me otherwise.

 

Am preparing case for tribunal and will ask for expedited hearing as my son will have been out of school for 20 months with no education at all.

 

Fingers crossed. :unsure:

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That's really good news that you have found a school.

 

Good luck!

 

Personally, I would just put the appeal in now, you have nothing to lose and it might get LA focused. Even if they do agree at panel, it still might take time for them to put that in writing for you. In addition, you need to make sure that Part 2 and 3 say exactly what they need to, otherwise the LA may not fund all extra therapies etc. he needs at the new school.

 

My son had been out of school a long time, we asked for expedited hearing when we sent our appeal documentation, but we didn't get it. I don't know whether that was because we didn't apply in the right way - we did consider sending request for changes to ask for expedited once we'd lodged appeal, but as we hadn't decided on a school at that point we decided to hold off.

 

We recently had a meeting with LA and they have now agreed to our choice of ASD school (they had never even named the school they wanted, just said mainstream). We're not withdrawing our appeal yet though until we have Parts 2 and 3 agreed too, and everything in writing for the school.

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Now you have found a school that is suitable and can meet all his needs, you need to have him spend a trial period of a few days with them. Do they produce a report of this visit? Then you need a letter from them offering your son a placement, which you have to submit as part of your appeal evidence.

 

You need this school to see all the reports and the Statement so that they can confirm they can meet all the provision detailed [plus any provision/therapy you want adding to the Statement] within their standard fees. If there is anything they don't provide, they need to specify what additional cost that will be. For example my son has Dyslexia and his ASD specific school did not have a Dyslexia teacher. So I/the school got a quote from a suitably qualified teacher [must be able to teach and assess so that they can monitor progress]. It was an additional £10Kpa, which the Panel agreed he needed and the LA was ordered to pay for it. So you need to be absolutely sure that they can provide everything from within their fees, or quote for additional provision. You don't want that to be a sticking point at Tribunal. You also want someone from that school to attend the Tribunal. Someone with experience of attending, who can give a detailed account of how they will reintegrate your son into school. A copy of his proposed timetable detailing therapy etc would be useful. You can have that with you on the day.

 

Then you stick with this as the only placement that can meet his needs.

 

Does it have speech therapist/occupational therapist on site? How will they meet his anxiety/depression needs?

 

BESD school is not appropriate, and you need to get written down the reasons why. You don't have to submit anything as evidence yet. You can submit that later as part of your appeal as to why this school is not suitable. But having visited it you have a good idea already.

Edited by Sally44

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Well had the LA grounds for response following appeal to statement part 2, 3 and 4. Can you believe they have asked for an adjournment or stay of proceedings? Shall obviously not be agreeing to this if given the choice. Tribunal in January when son will have been out of school for 2 years.

 

Asperger School are visiting weekly.

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I presume that the LA have submitted a 'request for changes' form asking for an adjournment?

If so you can submit your own "request for changes" form saying that due to the length of time your son has been out of school [ie. 2 years in January 2014], that you do not agree to any adjournment.

 

Do you mean the Aspergers school are visiting your son at home weekly? How is that going?

Edited by Sally44

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No, this is just mentioned in grounds for response. When I applied to tribunal for appeal I had requested an expedited hearing.

 

 

My son has just started on antidepressant which can take up to 8 weeks to become effective. The Head teacher is visiting weekly and the teacher is visiting next week. It is all a slow approach. He has photos of school and other children. He has seen some of their work and did comment on some which is a plus as he totally blanks any mention of school. He is withdrawn and has his face covered when anyone comes to the house.

 

The LA Solicitor has questioned whether this school would be suitable but have no other suggestion as remains on roll at large mainstream school.

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I'm not sure which schools you are talking about in your above post.

 

Is the solicitor questioning whether the ASD specific school is suitable?

 

Is it the Head teacher from the mainstream school that is visiting at home?

Edited by Sally44

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It is the ASD school who are visiting. The LA panel stated a one term assessment. This is the school the LA are questioning whether it is suitable as the Asperger's Centre is newly opened at beginning of year.

 

The mainstream school never sent a teacher in 5 terms.

 

The difficulty is he has had no education in that time and sparodic intervention from CAMHS this year. It took 17 months to see a psychiatrist.

 

The ASD school has OT, SALT, Clinical Psychologist and visiting psychiatrist. It may take longer than a term to get him in to school but there is no other option. They are also able to offer residential although we are within travelling distance.

 

I think this will go to tribunal because they do not want the expense. The LA witnesses will be the HT from mainstream (whom wrote stating they cannot provide medical needs tutor unless son engages) and provided nothing in 2 years, The EP who has stated ASD school is the type of school my son needs and the ASD school who do feel they are able to meet sons needs.

 

I spoke to a private EP who said the LA are ignoring their own EP's advice.

 

This LA has been rated inadequate by OFSTED.

 

All intervention offered from LA has been time limited which is totally inappropriate for my son. What planet do these people live on?

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Is someone coming from the ASD specific school to the Tribunal itself.

 

It would be really useful for them to attend, and for them to have a 'proposed timetable' and for them to be able to explain, if asked, how they will reintegrate your son into school. So talk to them about that, and ask them what they would say if asked.

 

My son went back to school for just two afternoons a week, and he only spent time with the Occupational Therapist and Speech Therapist. That went on for some time. They just wanted to get him out the house and into another environment, and just with one adult giving therapy - and doing it in a way that was fun so that he began to trust them and his confidence began to build again.

 

It took over 6 months for him to be in full time, and even now he often refuses Monday mornings because he cannot cope with the transition.

 

The big thing for this school is for them to get him in, get him liking what he is doing, and then giving some reward system he is motivated by to get him in gradually.

 

Do not feel pressurised to agree he will be in full time within a term, leave that very open ended. Otherwise the LA may put pressure on to keep to that deadline.

 

Yes my LA was also refusing to listen to advice their own EP and Autism Advisory Teacher had given them. But they had had that information for about 3 years, had withheld that advice from me and also from the first Tribunal we went to. I only discovered it via a Freedom of Information Act search - and also discovered that the LA had told those professionals to keep their opinions to themselves as they were the ones who would ultimately take the decision on what my son needed, because they were the ones that funded it. Unbelieveable!

 

So their own EP is saying your son needs an ASD specific school. Is that in their report? Is there anything in their report that suggests mainstream could work?

 

At our Tribunal my professionals said that "XXXX has not has his needs met, and therefore has voted with his own feet". The Tribunal Panel, in their Decision letter, said that they did not believe that my son would ever agree to go back to his former school due to the experiences he had had there. Your son has been out of school longer than mine was. I think you have a very good case.

 

Do any of your LA mainstream schools have an autism unit attached that they might offer on the day of the Tribunal? Personally I don't think the Tribunal Panel would be impressed with that, as nothing has been done for 2 years, and from what you have said he needs OT, SALT, Clinical Psychology, Psychiatrist etc on site. You need to keep drawing the Tribunal Panel back to the fact that that is the ONLY school that can meet your son's needs flexibly on a daily basis. And remember that flexibility is supposed to be there for the benefit of the child. So, as an example, if your son was having a bad day the OT could give him an extra relaxation session, or any of the other professionals could step up the support during that day and most importantly all these professionals are on site, and would be able to discuss your son's daily needs on a daily basis. It means that things are integrated, jointly planned and jointly delivered across all settings. That can never be achieved with different professionals popping into a mainstream school once a week/term who never meet the other professionals or the teaching staff.

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Although The ASD School HT has been visiting they have told me they cannot assess him until he actually goes to the school. I thought, at least, they would be able to send the clinical psychologist to see him.

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I agree that an ASD school can't assess a child unless they see him in that school environment.

 

Some schools do offer to observe in his current school but I am not sure of the point. It cannot replace the assessment in the ASD school and the school can get a better idea of what he is like from the paperwork than a short observation in a setting in which he is already failing - there is so much luck in terms of what behaviour they see.

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I had to take my son in for three days.

 

I went with him. I promised to stay with him until he was okay for me to leave, and the school were okay for me to stay at the back of the classroom until he said it was okay for me to go out. For the first day I stayed in school incase he needed to come and see that I was there. After that I left and came back to collect him. He found it very hard to stay in class, and he had to have lots of breaks and was assigned an adult who stayed with him all the time.

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I am hoping when the antidepressant medication kicks in he will consider looking at the school. Don't want to force this step as I think this is his mountain to climb but to keep reassuring him of the benefits of this school and difference to his old school.

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What does he say if you promise him that you will go with him and that you will stay until he says it is okay for you to leave the classroom and that you will stay within the school grounds?

 

Remember that alot of his anxiety is going to be about not having been listened to previously and therefore not having the trust in anyone that they will act on what he says and remove him if he is not coping.

 

We taught our son a hand signal to use when he needed to leave the classroom, and the adult assigned to him did remove him fro the class every time he used that sign.

 

There must be no 'encouraging' him to stay in class or on task at this point.

 

Infact the difference in my son was really useful because this ASD independent school had seen him 6 months previously and could note the severe deterioration in him.

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My son has made a few 10 minute visits to the ASD school over the last term. He has not seen their EP or OT although I was told this would be part of the initial transition assessment at home. Due to start more visits this term.

 

My IPSEA rep has advised me to adjourn the tribunal to see how the transition goes. She says the LA Solicitors may claim the ASD school is unsuitable as he has still not had any education. I have now requested an adjournment. The LA are funding ASD school for another term. Oh Hum :unsure:

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