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Sa Skimrande

Why do Aspies threaten Suicide when highly stressed ?

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Thinking about the recent culmination of the McKinnon case i am questioning why it is so many aspies when highly stressed threaten suicide and I wonder because I am on record for having done it myself several times.

 

Now I do understand those that threaten tend not to act and threatening is really a cry for help, but still as I tend to do it from time to time I need to understand why in order to change my behaviour and understand others who do the same.

 

But and I have said it elsewhere what McKinnon threatened I don't have any doubt he would have gone through with his threat if he had been extradited by our traitorous government for I do understand what that kind of betrayal can do.

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I have thought about this a lot in the past.

 

I was stopped part way through a suicide attempt when I was discovered in a pretty remote location. I had been there for 4 days and not seen another human being.... As a result I was detained in a secure mental health unit on suicide watch.

 

Now before someone pulls the post, I am not encouraging suicide but feel I have something valuable to say which might be of use to others.

 

Consultants and psychiatric specialist nurses with good experience in this field have passed their opinion that I have the type of 'make up' for the use of a better word which would indicate a 'suicidal tendency' in my personality. I have talked about this with them and they would say I am potentially prone at pressure points to become 'suicidal' and there is every chance I would take my own life.

 

Now I hope that does not happen because for 99.9% of the time I do not feel that way, however I am making these points to be able to say 'I do know what it feels like to be suicidal'.

 

My next point would be this as an Aspie I believe I have difficulty understanding my emotions at times, I can accept this as part of the condition. I also accept that by working hard being reflective and dedicated to improving things I can and have made significant inroads. What I will also say is that at times in my life I can get very depressed. I have a diagnosis for recurrent major depressive disorder (MDD). Now the label doesn't really interest me but it might others.

 

At times of deep depression I get lots of dark thoughts and complex and intense negative emotions and this can be quite confusing. I can also be pretty destructive in respect to self harm behaviours in an attempt to deal with emotional conflict and regain levels of self control. In fact this is a pretty charge emotional state.

 

 

And here is the big point 'for me' this dark and charged emotional state is nothing like how I feel when I am truly suicidal.

 

 

Now in respect to my own life I might draw the conclusion that this is a progressive developmental stage and I move from one to the other. Another conclusion might be that they are two very separate things.

 

If you take this second perspective you might easily argue that people who get really confused emotionally but know there are lots of negative thought flying around 'believe' they are suicidal or at least those around them such as parents do, when in fact they could be a long way from being in that position. It might well be the case that they are totally incapable of taking their own lives.

 

Now I am not for one minute saying that these feelings and emotional states are false and without reasons. And I am not dismissing attention seeking behaviour as not having a purpose. What I would say is that when I am suicidal it would be very difficult for anyone to spot. I have gone to great lengths to talk through things with my partner so she is better placed to read the signs, even so I don't think that is easy for her to do. In my own life I would say the times I truly get suicidal to the times I get very low and depressed which is not a pleasant experience might be in the ratio of 1:20 if not more. As such I would say to people who constantly feel as if they might take their own life and don't to seek help to talk through things with someone in the know, you may be suicidal you may not.

 

As a final point to moderators and others who might add to this discussion and please do. Confusion about emotional states is and aspect of ASD conditions and as such I do think the points raised are valid. Talking about this for people like me is not easy. I have to live everyday knowing I have a suicidal type disposition and so I have to acknowledge that to myself. By deleting posts the forum is refusing to acknowledge those aspects in some of its membership. I am not trying to glorify suicide in any way here, neither am I trying to pass judgement from any moral position, rather I am offering personal thoughts in answer to a post based on real experience. The experts I have talked to would support these thoughts as they relate to me and as such I am confident in offering them up.

 

I look forwards to what others have to say, what I would ask is that other try and remain objective and constructive.

 

LancsLad.

Edited by trekster

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From my personal experience, it happened when all options seemed unbearably bad, I was in a deep depression and with no energy left to help myself. The people trying to help couldn't connect with me and I couldn't communicate with them, that might be the aspie aspect of it,

 

The self perpetuating depressive loop takes on it's own agenda, and it is this loop which needs to be broken, It takes over from reason, it numbs and it dumbs, and it takes a shock or an inhibitor to break it, So far for me it has always been medication, it is only a sticking plaster, but it is best stop the energy haemorrage as quickly as possible.

Edited by raydon

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Hi guys just popping in as I,ve had alerts from other members about "another suicide thread"............however everything appears fine , as you all know it is a highly emotive subject, I,ll keep an eye on this thread for those that are worried, please keep discussion within forum rules and everything will be fine :pray:

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Can the other members who alerted Suze over 'another suicide thread' please come forward and explain what the issues are so far with this discussion and please add to it as your views will be most welcome, even if they are LancsLad and others ###### off and take your views elsewhere!

 

It's just that next time you come on with a problem and want some help or ideas, or information, if I have decided not to ###### off somewhere else I will at least feel comfortable in having a transparent context in deciding whether or not to respond because at the moment I tend to read everything and respond to anything I feel I might have a 'constructive' thought about. I would like to think I am above that in a way and could still respect someone even though they obviously don't respect me, Raydon or SaSkimrande.

 

You are right Suze it is a highly emotive subject but large parts of my life have been highly emotional and I guess that's why it is emotive because this topic is all about 'life' it is not about 'death'. It is about talking through a life position so that if others arrive at that point they may better understand it and come out of the other side. If for example I had lost someone close to me through suicide I would want people to come on and explain how they got through it so that others might not lose a life if it can be helped. I am not in denial about my suicidal tendencies that is why I am here today and am able to speak freely about them. But one of the reasons large parts of my life have been highly emotional are because of many of the issues I face living with Asperger's on a daily basis.

 

When I was 44 I was given a diagnosis for Asperger's, I could have chosen to ignore it but instead I decided to respect the decision and reflect back on my life, and that meant all of my life and try to understand how AS had played a role in my development as a human being and why that had led to the position I had arrived at. Personally I felt I learnt a lot of valuable things in that process and continue to do so day by day. At a rough guess the three individuals who have posted here have got a combined age just short of 150 years, and that equates to 150 years of experience living with AS I would like the people who wanted to take our thoughts off this forum just reflect on that point for a minute or so, 150 years of experience!

 

Suze thank you for not deleting the post, but in a way I feel by coming on and using the words you have I have to ask myself the question where do I go from here, what can I say next. In effect I am being policed because you are highlighting your are in a position to sanction my thoughts based on what mandate?

 

To make one final pertinent point in the past week the Damien Hurst statue 'Verity' has been erected in Ilfracombe. There have been many points made from two polar positions regarding the controversial statue. I followed some of this on another forum debate and one of the most intelligent points I saw was 'This is not about personal taste, it is all about art'. In a similar way can I say in my opinion this forum should not be about personal taste rather it should be about ASD and life.

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I have sometimes thought great length about this subject and wondered why this happens.

 

I can only comment on my case and it seems to be the following:-

My life is all about finding solutions to problems.

 

"Human problems" are something that I cannot seem to compute and the first "answer" that pops into my head is to do away with myself - Problem solved.

 

But of the flip side, I am extremely stubborn, treat life as a game and I play games to win!

As you can see, I am still here getting on with things but do my upmost to avoid "human problems/situations"

 

@LancsLad @Sa @Raydon

 

As always, thank you for your contributions and for being honest about your lives so far.

To get others views on a topic is always helpful before taking any decision

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Raydon I can relate to the feeling of emptiness you describe in a big way.

 

In my own life I would say that when there are emotions present even if they are very dark and destructive I know that taking my own life is not going to happen at that point. I would like to go into the details so others might understand but I am sure if the post would be pulled.

 

I have as a foster carer been involved in working with some very difficult cases where children as young as eight have been apparently 'suicidal'. I have also had two periods of living at university and have had apparently 'suicidal' students in my apartment block. Now some might say how can I make this next point, but in 'my' opinion those individuals were never going to take their own lives in that mental state. But there were others around them such as friends, GP's or social workers who thought they might. All I can say in defending this statement is I believe 'it takes one to know one'. When I spent time inside a secure mental health unit with specialists who see a lot of suicidal cases I talked about this with them and I revised my belief to 'it takes one to know one, or someone who was worked closely with a range of confirmed suicidal individuals'.

 

I think one of the really dangerous elements around suicide is a general understanding about what is a suicidal state of mind. I think a lot of people would see it as a very emotional state and in my experience it is anything but. I can remember being in a secure unit and outlining to the psychiatric nurses that I was emotionally stable and very calm and could I now be released, to be told no way, in effect that's the last state we are ever going to let you out of here in.

 

Now I have spoken to a number of people about suicide in trying to get a better understanding and a lot of the time I have to think you are still alive so how do I know if you did mean it or not. But when someone jumps from the top of a 15 storey block of flats and hits a skip with mattresses in it, even I think yes you did mean to do it. And I have spoken to other similar individuals where I listen and think just like me you were doing it, and all of them have a similar description about a state of mind at the time.

 

Now where I have a problem it is in the fact that description does not often match public perception but I can understand that. Suicide is a very emotional subject and the national suicide rate is rising and so it is a very real issue and as such we need to be talking about it more not less. But because it is emotional all sorts of emotional states are transposed over it and confuse the picture. I have a great deal of sympathy for someone who has lost a loved one through suicide, I would for my own son if I took my own life, but what is more important for me is that I understand my own emotions and base my decisions to life on them, I can't live for someone else.

 

And there are times in my life when I get depressed but a lot of the time there are emotions there and this can be confusing. I might get angry, frustrated, feel hurt or rejected. I might feel inadequate and worthless and have a contemptuous disdain for myself, but they are all emotions. In dealing with those emotions I might test out their validity and I do that as we all do by building mental scenarios to see if they work within that context. I might picture going to my son and trying to play on the Wii with him but because of an internal emotional state it doesn't work. I might also construct a scenario where I am going through the actions of taking my own life so is that wrong? Given my experience I can go a stage further than that I can go to past times and revisit the time and place to see if there is fit. And as I said in my first post for a large amount of the time it doesn't feel right, if it does for me that is where I go into auto pilot and seek help immediately because guess what 'I don't want to die'.

 

Now if I am not experienced in this and I have for example AS and struggle with emotional recognition in the first place and I feel low, I feel angry, frustrated, feel hurt or rejected. I might feel inadequate and worthless and have a contemptuous disdain for myself what do I do. I think I do the same thing, I test out these emotions by building scenarios in my head. And if I come to the conclusion I am confused and depressed but I don't want to take my own life yet, then brilliant !!! Because that is one tough ###### process to go through and you came out of the other side, well done! The next best thing to do in my opinion is go and tell someone what you have just been through, hopefully someone like me and I will say brilliant mate, that took guts and you will learn and become more self receptive as a result. But unfortunately because of public perceptions we go through the process and don't talk about it, because people don't want to listen and we don't feel they will understand, rather we feel guilty because we just has some thoughts in our lives which were not to pleasant. And a number of year ago suicide was illegal, thankfully it is not now as such I wasn't locked up in a prison for trying to take my own life. But the cultural legacy of perception takes far longer to change than a law through parliament.

 

As a society or as an ASD community we can't pick and choose how people go through emotional processes. If for example I believe I am in love with someone is it ok and healthy to construct testing scenarios such as imagining walking together holding hands, or kissing or hugging etc... I will stop there, and say that is natural we are simply testing emotions in an internal way to validate our feelings. Well if that's ok then when emotions are negative and we think about self harm and ending our life is it not the same, is it not part of some internal process of validation.

 

To finish with a personal example, I was very low at a point in my life and had to go for an assessment for incapacity benefit as part of a review. I was faced with someone who barely spoke English and wanted to tick boxes on a screen and didn't listen to a word I said. I was very frustrated and confused and needed to sort out the emotional turmoil and clear my head. My car was on the fourth floor of a multi-storey car park but I didn't stop on the fourth floor I went to the top and climbed over the barrier with my toes over the edge and stood there for about half an hour and gathered my thoughts. I made the decision looking back to accelerate the process because I had a 2 hour drive in front of me and I had work which needed to be handed in at the end of that week at university. I knew I was too emotional to take my own life, and as an experienced rock climber I wasn't going to fall off and made sure if I did there was no chance of anyone being below me. I was very much getting control and going through a process I knew well. My mind cleared I got things in perspective climbed back over the barrier and drove back to my university digs. Standing or sitting on the edge of things like that is something I do from time to time, but to others this looks like suicidal behaviour. Interestingly three people came to the top floor to get their cars, all three decided they had some extra shopping to do they had forgotten about, they thought I was suicidal I wasn't sure so I decided to find out.

 

For a lot of people those sorts of processes are very scary, there is a massive amount of guilt as to why am I doing this. There are also a lot of emotions flying around none of them positive which get hooked onto things. In such situations people need help but the thing they do not need is judgement. We need time and space to work through stuff and to reflect on what is happening in our minds. What does not help is stigmatising such thought processes, and transposing our values is not constructive either. In this respect you may not share my values or beliefs, what I would say these thoughts are based on personal experience and as such I would like to hear of other peoples experiences and how they arrived at their own beliefs and value judgements.

 

If you totally disagree with what I say please come on and post your own thoughts, but suicide rates are increasing society looses individual in this way by the day and so we need to talk about it. Every time I hear of someone who has taken their own life it really hurts me because I think I have a very good idea about what they have gone through. The easy thing would be to try and take that pain away by being in denial but I am not that stupid, rather I have to be brave and for me that means talking about it, I hope others feel the same way.

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I personally believe that there's a massive difference between the following:

 

Suicidal thoughts

 

Planning suicide

 

Feeling suicidal

 

A suicide attempt.

 

I might have thoughts at a level where I am not particularly suicidal, if the obsession elements and depression and stuff progresses I might plan. But there's a big difference between thoughts and planning something and actually being in a state where I would carry it out.

 

I think its important to be self-aware of such things, for example I personally am quite emotional when thinking about it, or planning it, but when I really feel suicidal it signifies a change in my thinking and mood that is a warning sign - but as such suicide itself is less of a risk, it is this stage where I might threaten it but I'm not going to do it - I suppose stuff could happen to trigger a failed attempt, but it wouldn't be the real deal. Getting to a point where an attempt is actually made, well that is very different.

 

The point I'm making is that stress may provoke thoughts or planning, but I think there needs to be more than just stress, I also think there's more than just depression because of the change in mindset from one set of factors to another - thinking, planning, feeling, are all highly emotive or reactive states for me, whereas an actual attempt feels very different, more calm and decisive.

 

Another point on this is that when people are reactive they might do something they regret, whether that is thinking, planning or even an attempt - but a reactive state doesn't necessarily mean that a person actually 100% wants to die, it just might seem like a course of action that is viable or sensible (in a reactive mindset that might make more sense) for a number of reasons.

 

Finally I think some people, whether they have AS or not, can be more likely to go from one extreme to another because of simplistic thinking, with the sort of logic that says something like:

 

Life is rubbish, I'll never succeed, I'm hurt, I'm depressed, I'm useless - and then jump to a massive conclusion that those elements require death - its a pretty big jump in the thinking process because those things can point to any number of other solutions - yet that can be hard to see when you feel a certain way.

 

I'd also reiterate that for me, stress wouldn't make me threaten suicide, its a whole lot more than that, there's negative feelings and thoughts and emotions, I may have distortions in how I view things, depression becomes a huge factor here too, also there's likely to be some external stuff as well as internal things. Of course those things add stress and can be fuelled by stress but there's way more to it (for me) than stress alone,

 

Either way any of the factors can be very isolating because people see it as wrong to think about it, wrong to plan, wrong to feel that way and wrong to make an attempt.

 

What I see as wrong is when people cannot discuss this stuff at a time when that is exactly what they may need to do - otherwise it can seem like there's no way out, and I believe that at certain stages we do look for answers and ways out, but it can be hard to find them when nobody understands - this can further enhance the isolation and make things far worse.

 

Just a few thoughts

 

Darkshine

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Guess we have gone over the 200 years of life experience mark now. We have had recent debates about what this forum is for and personaly I have thought is it worth it, but when it comes to stuff like this it must be worth something so long as we can pass that experience on.

 

Sometimes posts referring to self-harm do not indicate an immediate risk, but they may contain material which others find inappropriate or distressing. This type of post will also be removed from the public forum at the moderator's/administrator's discretion, considering the forum user base as a whole.

 

The problem with the rules as they stand is if one person feels things are inappropriate or distressing do they have a right to have the post closed down?

 

7. This forum is for the benefit of all of our members and all posts should be both polite and respectful to the views of other members. For the avoidance of doubt the moderators reserve the right to err on the side of caution and moderate posts which might be impolite or disrespectful to the views of other members.

 

All they have to do is contact a moderator and refer to rule 7. To be honest I am not sure if we have broken this rule and guideline or not yet.

 

What I would ask again is can those people who did object to Suze, because she used the term members which implies at least two, and wanted the post closed down please come on because you obviously read it and so I suspect you have read this and explain now why you feel what is being discussed is innapropriate and should be removed. By doing so there is a balanced perspective because so far there is a lot of agreement between the contributors so please feel free to air your beliefs and why you have come to them.

Edited by LancsLad

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To Suze and any concerned readers, and to backup Darkshine, LancsLad and Sa Skimrande, we are mature people who have survived this ordeal. To be able to discuss this issue, I hope to be able to convey the futility of it, together with some of my thoughts then, and now.

 

I would never, ever, recommend this course of action to anyone. By talking about it, hopefully it might be an eye opener and dissuade any readers from going down this path. To know the signs, as Darkshine says, is key to changing direction.

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i on several times attempted suicide some secretly some not ive tried to hide run from the depressive feelings that try to supress but bottle it up for too long get too much overwhelming suffocating feel so scared stressed and so alone that feel no other way out or options available

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im not proud ive reached real dark dangerous thoughts in my life but depression pushes you closer to the edge! When feel so trapped & desperate feels like nothing else matters everything feels so bleak wrong!

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What I particularly find distressing about this ;

 

 

Hi guys just popping in as I,ve had alerts from other members about "another suicide thread"............however everything appears fine , as you all know it is a highly emotive subject, I,ll keep an eye on this thread for those that are worried, please keep discussion within forum rules and everything will be fine :pray:

Is that how would these members feel if people indeed took the wrong option because people, a forum they believed in failed them ? How would this forum like it if this website was implicated in someone's death by failing to offer the support when some of us get to that screaming end position when they cannot do anything else other than write ?

Most of us here are adults talking about what comes over us to think in such ways, and in seeking answers we are asking very pertinent questions that need answers as this thing is not going to go away, but it will be like a running sore festering in the background and will become the uncomfortable truth that everyone is ignoring, the elephant in the room.

And again how about a private room to save those people who cannot bear to see the bitter truth to be published online ?

But no matter how many time the mods pull threads these threads will continue to surface, they will do so because this is a very ''emotive subject'', that needs to be analysed and put to bed and I do believe nothing short of kicking members off the site will stop these threads until new members start the discussions again, for it will not go away no matter how far you dig your heads into the sand.

But I second LancsLad let those that have alerted the mods to this thread step forward and add why it is they think moderation is required or is it they do not have the courage of their convictions to speak out ?

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i think so much shame guilt bad feelings involved around this situation everyone gets emotionally hurt stung by it! This makes you feel even worse! Just everything adds up! Everything can seem so tangled confused messy with AS bein around too with depression and stress adds fuel to the fire!

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What I would ask again is can those people who did object to Suze, because she used the term members which implies at least two, and wanted the post closed down please come on because you obviously read it and so I suspect you have read this and explain now why you feel what is being discussed is innapropriate and should be removed. By doing so there is a balanced perspective because so far there is a lot of agreement between the contributors so please feel free to air your beliefs and why you have come to them.

 

For the record I second that, I'm not after starting an argument or anything else, and I cannot speak for everyone else, but I for one will not "jump" on anyone who has the guts to come here and say why they have a problem with this sort of discussion.

 

I think Sa Skimrande is right, this is emotive and it needs to be understood before it can be "put to bed" for some of us.

 

Raydon, thank you for seeing my point of view about awareness.

 

Smiley K - yes, depression is a huge factor with AS and stress, and by understanding these things we can get things for ourselves so instead of all that stuff becoming so massive and turning into something that feels impossible, we can find the knowledge, understanding, awareness and coping skills for ourselves to have control of our lives - because AS, depression, stress or anything else should not control us and lead us to terribly dark and bad places.

 

I believe we find strength through learning, sharing and understanding, and we find it from surviving - if everyone can just survive then maybe one day they can get to a point where they can actually live.

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What ignoring the subject actually is, is ignoring people that are screaming out for help, what a sad society we have become.

 

But can someone please enlighten the forum as to where exactly it says in the website rules that suicide must not be talked about as I was under the impression that this website dealt with ASD conditions of which depression is part of it as every piece of literature on ASD describes and with depression comes the shock, horror subject of people ideating suicide?

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This is on page two from the link below the quote:

 

Hi guys...there were issues with the "closed suicide " thread.Complaints were made about it.There are members on the forum who have been directly affected by suicide, and I think under the circumstances the mod involved felt it correct to close the thread.However this new one has now been started , I don,t want to spoil anyones lively discussion or debate, however the enormity and tragedy of suicide and the loss it entails for the victims friends and family cannot be ignored by the mods .Its understandable that those who contributed to the thread feel disappointed that it was closed, and this thread remains here now for that reason, however please consider how this topic may be interpretted by a other members , and those more vulnerable than yourselves.

 

http://www.asd-forum...suicide-thread/

 

 

It is the most explanation we have had, other than the brief post by Mossgrove about deleting the thread I started a while back and the other thread (I cannot remember what the title was but there was a discussion about someone feeling like a penguin).

 

Also from the rules:

 

People may experience a more serious crisis with their mental health and need urgent medical assistance and advice. However well intentioned, this is not an area of support that the forum can or should be attempting to offer and we would urge members who are feeling at risk of self-harm or suicide to contact either their own GP/health centre, or if out of hours contact NHS Direct on 0845 4647 or to call emergency services 999.

 

And also:

 

However, any posts which are deemed to contain inference of personal intent to self-harm and/or suicide will be removed from the forum and that person will be contacted via the pm system with advice on where to seek appropriate help.

 

So although there is a mention - there is not any rule specifically stating that this topic is breaking the rules as nothing said here comes under that criteria.

 

The thing is Sa Skimrande - are you actually wanting to talk about the topic you raised initially in this post - or are you after a massive debate about whether the forum should allow the aforementioned discussion? If so maybe you should start a separate post for that because otherwise one or the other topic here will suffer - they are both too emotive and in-depth to exist within one post without being detrimental to each other (as topics).

 

Just my opinion

 

Regards

 

Darkshine

Edited by darkshine

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To take it back to the initial question and to bring in the point made by SmileyK about guilt.

 

Is there an element where we know society generally disaproves of suicide and by threatening suicide people are asking for people around them to activly disaprove of their thoughts. We know what the possible reaction is and so it reinforces a negative position of ourselves, if that is what we seek. In other words is it simply an emotional self harm activity to cry wolf?

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i think mine was a cry for help not who called wolf!?? As this wasnt for simple act of attention it was a cry for help! As was struggling to manage! Felt like i was drowning under my emotions! Thats a not goos or safe place to be in your mind!

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i would say the answer to that is simply an emotional self harm i felt reached a point of no more no return i felt i was useless burden! I even wrote my college tutor suicide note & handed it to her!

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i think it can be simply too easy to judge and misinterupt or misconclude a situation especially one as damaging as this! If it left and igorned this could have life threatenin consequences! To turnin blind eye

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I think for people to threaten what they do it is a form of self harm and at the same time a cry for people to understand them as the emotional stuff, I don't pretend to understand emotions, I don't mostly and when it is I am in that place where I am thinking of that that shall not be named what I am feeling, I don't know what I am feeling as it seems there is so much all jumbled together into one big mess with no rhyme nor reason as to what or why, which could also be described as confusion.

 

But such is our society where the stiff upper lip is still promoted and we have experts that really don't now what they are talking about beyond the latest text book they just happen to agree with, we are as a society lost when it comes to emotions where emotions are treated as largely irrelevant to modern day living when it is emotions, what we come to experience by way of our senses and thought processing are probably the most important things in our lives because they govern so much of us.

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I think a potential problem is that if the right sort of help is not there, what gets left behind is a sense of guilt because people have not taken you seriously. If it is not guilt then real anger might be an appropriate response.

 

I have had experience of someone in my care where threatening suicide had simply become attention seeking behaviour. When we sat down and went back to where it started and it was understandable given what was happening in their life no one had dealt with it. This individual came across that she felt she was owed the recognition and support, and in a way I could see her logic in that. By talking through the original events which went back two years the suicidal threats vanished pretty quickly.

 

I obviously believe every case is different because we are all individuals at the end of the day, and a lot of this plea for help is an attempt to make sense of our emotions. When those emotions are left unresolved then that is where issues start to develop. I think the answer is to talk through the emotions at the time and see them for what they are genuine emotions. That is why i would say to people dont feel guilty about having emotions rather talk through them either through self reflection and if you can't with someone else.

 

If someone said to me i wouldn't know what to do with someone who was feeling very suicidal, I think the answer is simple... listen.

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i freaked myself out having suicidal thoughts as dont know what to share with who? As scared people automatic response is jump straight to anger or worry dont know how to help really!

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ive walked for hours trying to work out clear my head & thoughts on my own but seems get more messed up and muddled hate getting others involved as then they feel responsible for what happenns next!

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I can relate to the wlaking for hours bit and I would recomend it. I think the first think is see them as thoughts and nothing more, nothing less. Darkshine made an excellent point about there being different levels to this, the first one being thoughts. It would be if we could deal with things at this stage and writting our thoughts down I believe is one way of doing things and I suspect there are masses of suicide notes which are all about simply expressing our thoughts when there is no one around to talk to.

 

I think it is when we are not able to express ourselves that we move on from there and ask the question well what are we going to do about it. For a lot of people the answer is nothing. This in a way leaves people left with guilt because they feel they have had these emotions struggled to make sense of them and have done nothing at the end of the day. Some people will make plans and that is regretable.

 

I can see where Darkshine is coming on this one is that often in my experience I make plans and then sit on them fror some time, possibly days or a couple of weeks. For me this is about checking on my emotions and validating them. I have heard a lot of people say this is what they do and that it is a calculating period.

 

I think this should offer hope to individuals who get very depressed and emotional and anxious about their thought processes in the inital stages that Darkshine called 'suicidal thoughts' in that this might be a relativly safe place, not a comfortable one but a safe one. I think people have time to work these things through if the want to do so. I do not personally belive suicide is something which simply comes up and grabs someone in a day or so in the vast majority of individuals. For this reason I do not get anxious or worried if I have suicidal thoughts as I believe they are part of my life. It took time for me to see things this way possibly my late twenties. Once I recognised there was a big buffer zone there for me I bacame more focused on thinking about why I was having these thoughts what had triggered them rather than worrying about the nature of them.

 

As in all aspects of life experience counts for a lot and sharing experiences might help others I hope so.

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In order to understand what comes over people when they think in a certain negative way, I think we have first to discover what depression actually is and with that there a whole host of explanations out there thus indicating no one actually knows beyond a few core subjects of which all material suggests it can be medicated- wrong I know for a fact having taken anti depressants for a number of years all they do is round off edges, they don't cure the problem as I personally have had some of my worst episodes on high doses of anti depressant thus proving there is something more much deeper that medications can't touch and to keep medicating people is not the answer for this problem that lies buried deep needs to be uncovered and shown the light of day. But depression is an industry and I cannot help but suspect nothing will be ever discovered to rid these problems when people are making vast sums of money.

 

Is it because we ignore our emotions that our emotions gang up on us and hit us all at the same time causing the confusion that we find we want out of, as it is most turn inward when they are threatened externally, but if that external threat causes internal threat where else is there to go except out of it ?

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One thing I do know when Mr Nasty grips me is that I write and I write, I even do mind maps trying to find a way out and in the past I have vented on various websites only to feel pretty damned stupid after the storm has subsided, but that's it for me writing calms the storm and so a website I used to use was Depression Forums.org where they have no problems whatsoever with members ranting as they know full well, dangerous thoughts are better out than in. Viewers take a wander over there and discover how dangerously ill people are helped, where it is hoped this website can help as if it doesn't exactly what use is it?

 

Edited to add just perusing the front page of DepressionForums. Org and there is this ;

 

Depression is one of the most misunderstood medical conditions, with caregivers often as lost as the sufferers.

Edited by Sa Skimrande

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In response to these last points I quit taking all anti-depressants 6 or 7 years ago because they were stopping me making contact with my emotional states. Life without medication is a bit more of a roller coaster ride in my personal experince but at least I feel I am in control of the carridges and can manipulate them to keep on the tracks.

 

I agree about the fact a lot of this is simply an industry which as with any other is looking for growth at the expense of individuals.

 

A lot of the time I believe medication has no effect on me in any positive way. I have asked psychiatrists for research where the subjects were autistic and they can't provide it. The funny thing is due to my back problem which I have had for over 15 years I was recently advised to take medication to help the pain. I told the physio i had been on the said medication at a dose 5 time greater and it had done nothing for my back, she then suggest another one and the answer was the same. So whilst these things might work with others I have evidence they dont for me.

 

I think we have to look at ourselves and say we are as much an expert in all of this as anyone. Sometimes life throws us some harsh lessons but if we learn from them we become stronger and better placed to face whatever comes next.

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No one has a problem per se with the views or content in this thread, I just received alerts as suicide is an emotive issue as we all know.There is no need for any member to justify their reasons for putting an alert on this thread , I get alerts all the time and on this occasion simply wanted to reassure you if you like that I was aware of the thread and that as long as it stayed within forum rules all was fine., please don,t read anymore into this than that.As you will be aware threads have been closed in the past when suicide has been the subject.You won,t be aware though of what happens and has gone on behind the scenes when suicide has been talked of by members, and the private messages etc that are passed to Mods its a very difficult thing to deal with.So again no problems here , please carry on and forget I was ever here :ph34r:

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No one has a problem per se with the views or content in this thread, I just received alerts as suicide is an emotive issue as we all know

 

Then why would anyone see fit to alert the mods if there was no problem ?

 

Where I am inclined to think there is a problem or else why bother alerting the mods and I ask again for those that have done so step forward and have the courage of your convictions for if you don't members on this website may think the place is populated by a few smiling knives.

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Then why would anyone see fit to alert the mods if there was no problem ?

 

Where I am inclined to think there is a problem or else why bother alerting the mods and I ask again for those that have done so step forward and have the courage of your convictions for if you don't members on this website may think the place is populated by a few smiling knives.

 

 

...............I have no idea .............its not my job to wonder why people do things , just Moderate what they do as and when I.,m needed.............I also don,t know why you have to read more into this , your looking for problems and there are,nt any there........there isn,t anything malicious in putting up an alert believe me , it just flags up a post/thread to me nothing more.There is no conspiracy going on .

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I personally believe that there is a point to depression as there is a point to suicidal thoughts - they are massive alarm bells telling us something is very wrong.

 

Now some things might be more obvious than others, but I don't really think that depression just pops up from nowhere, I don't think we have to be predisposed, or that genetics rule this - sure they may play a role in things, but I think there is usually a purpose for such feelings.

Edited by darkshine

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when you feel dont belong anywhere normal n.t world nor quite the fully pledged autistic world somewhere in the middle not fitting anywhere really just in mid air floating around where doea this leave u mentally/emotionally and because dont fit in you cant assess proper real services for support out there neitger drives me mad crazy!

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what are you suppose to do? Where do you go? As m.h.t services and teams dont want to know as dont fit them you dont fit l.d teams or services so what next step ??? You feel so lost like going round in circles docs surgery make you out like making it up or time wasting!

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Being "NT" or having AS isn't black and white - there's lots of different grey between black and white.

 

There is also minimal help out there, and some of it not very valuable either, I've tried to work with people in services because they've offered help, even when its not the right type of help, and I've done it cuz I was kind of desperate.

 

If you realise that there's minimal help then it can be useful - it forces you to look at what you actually need help with and to only seek that. It also can help you to prioritise and ask "what is my biggest problem, what is affecting everything else?". The answers might not lie with services at all, they might be found on forums, or through friends, and even more importantly, over time, they can be found within yourself too, because you will learn things, we all can.

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Smiley I agree with Darkshine here, the thing is you are who you are. The problem with a lot of support is it works off a set of criteria and I guess there are not that many people who fit that criteria because we are all different. The issue is the system can make people wish they were something they are not just so they fit someone elses idea of what is Aspie or NT.

 

For the vast majority of my life there was absoloutly no help, and there is none now for me to be honest. As such I just had to get on with being me and to simply try my best each and every day to be a better version of me.

 

Raydon made a very good point a few days ago about change. He said the things that we work at we get better at, the things that we don't we don't improve, if I remeber his wise words correctly. At the heart of this is accepting who we are. By doing so we can focus on the things we want to change about ourselves and go in a positive direction. And that should be about working through and resolving our issues as best as we can, not about trying to find new ones so we fit some sort of profile in the hope someone comes along to take an interest in us, because in my experience those people are simply not there anyway so why wast your time and effort going up a dead end. Far better you find a road which leads to a more fullfilling and productive life.

 

That jorney takes dedication and effort and is not easy, but in my experience it is worth it. And to be honest deciding to make those sorts of journeys in life has nothing whatsoever about whether you are Aspie, NT or anything else. It's a personal decision and one I believe all of us can make if we really want to.

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I personally believe that there is a point to depression as there is a point to suicidal thoughts - they are massive alarm bells telling us something is very wrong.

 

Now some things might be more obvious than others, but I don't really think that depression just pops up from nowhere, I don't think we have to be predisposed, or that genetics rule this - sure they may play a role in things, but I think there is usually a purpose for such feelings.

 

When I was at uni we worked on a model of the neuron, and linked many of them together to see what would happen. Under certain circumstances a large loop of neurons could go into a state of oscillation, ie without any further input all of the synapses would be firing in sequence.

 

I view depression as this form of brain activity, it is a self perpetuating state and the longer it is left the deeper it gets. I think this can also apply to many different types of "locked in" behavior depending on which part of the brain it is happening in.

 

This is a very low level electro-chemical view of it, emotions and thoughts are triggered by this core cycle hence can seem irrational and confusing. Suicidal thoughts can come as a desperate way to try and stop this inner cycle.

 

It is the feeling of repetitve negative thought which I use as the indicator of an onset, but clearly everyone will have different triggers. Having this image of a rogue loop of neurons deep in the brain which mustn't be allowed to become active I find helpful.

 

I must stress this is a personal understanding and is unresearched.

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Raydon I don't care if it is a personal understanding, it is really interesting and thanks for sharing it. I think we all develop personal beliefs and if they work for us they are valid. Something I will think about as will others I am sure.

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