I read with interest

[Lyndalou]

http://autismblogsdirectory.blogspot.co.uk/2011/09/simon-baron-cohen-replies-to-rachel.html

 

Oh dear! Can't get link to work but go to Autism Blogs Directory and then to Sept 2011 for Simon Baron-Cohen's response to Rachel Cohen-Rottenberg's response to his theory of lack of empathy in Autism.

Edited December 30, 2012 by A-S warrior
Fixed link.

[Sa Skimrande]

http://autismblogsdi...-to-rachel.html

 

 

The website is a bit sucky in that pages fail to load properly, but the above link takes you to what I believe you were referring to.

 

As to science I personally believe science is autistic in itself in that it is good at narrow beam focusing on minute areas of interest but in general is completely lousy at collating all the information from many sources to reveal the bigger picture.

 

And so, science, I believe it has got a long way to go before it is of much use to cognitive understanding, but what science produces authoritarian minds can abuse in their pursuit for authority and that worries me the most, the abuse to which science in all honesty can be put to as mean men rule the world and on a more local level so many want to have power over others and I have experienced it through being told I have AS therefore I could not possibly be thinking right as science says so and I must therefore defer to an NT's decision.

Edited December 26, 2012 by Sa Skimrande

[Lyndalou]

I expected Baron-Cohen's writing to come over as more arrogant but perhaps arrogance (or scientific arrogance) can be disguised in writing?

 

Some of his explanation made no real sense to me.

 

I found some of the responses to be very intelligent and well thought through.

 

I enjoy reading Rachel Cohen-Rottenberg's work. I think it's a terrible shame she has stopped writing her blogs and doing her advocacy work.

[Sa Skimrande]

Baron-Cohen is one of the few who appear not to be arrogant and perhaps why I have lot of respect for him and his work, but he can be seen

giving his conference on the erosion of empathy. He is also a lot younger than I thought he would be

 

And my next question is he related to Ali G ?

 

Because clever would figure as a family trait.

Edited December 27, 2012 by Sa Skimrande

[Lyndalou]

http://autismblogsdi...-to-rachel.html

 

 

The website is a bit sucky in that pages fail to load properly, but the above link takes you to what I believe you were referring to.

 

As to science I personally believe science is autistic in itself in that it is good at narrow beam focusing on minute areas of interest but in general is completely lousy at collating all the information from many sources to reveal the bigger picture.

 

And so, science, I believe it has got a long way to go before it is of much use to cognitive understanding, but what science produces authoritarian minds can abuse in their pursuit for authority and that worries me the most, the abuse to which science in all honesty can be put to as mean men rule the world and on a more local level so many want to have power over others and I have experienced it through being told I have AS therefore I could not possibly be thinking right as science says so and I must therefore defer to an NT's decision.

This I totally agree with and this was the general sense I had upon reading the response written by SBC. Having read a number of other articles about 'supposed' lack of empathy (I will agree that I don't feel it in a 'typical' way although in the past I would have said 'the way I should' ), I absolutely know that I DO have empathy. I may not feel that bothered if someone has done something to themselves, leading to them being upset if it's something that they and/or everyone else saw coming a mile away. I would probably think more along the lines of 'well you made your bed now lie in it' although I would express some concern about how they were feeling. However, when it comes to people being flooded out of their homes or dying of malnourishment at 3 months old then I find this very upsetting and my heart reaches out to those people.

 

I had a conversation once with 2 NT friends. It was in the context of the TV series 'The Pacific' about the World War 2 war in that area and about how upsetting and graphic some of the depictions of the war were. One friend said that it was terrible that 'our boys' had to go through that and that in order to avoid all this unnecessary bloodshed it was a pity they had not invented the atomic bomb at the start of the war. Then it could simply have been dropped on Japan before they (the bad guys) had the chance to kill our boys. Now to me, apart from it being skewed logic, a complete misunderstanding of history and disregard of the value of other societies and cultures in comparison to our own, I also think it shows an absolute lack of empathy. I see a similar lack of empathy shown towards my son by people who have very little interest in knowing what living with autism is actually about. So, what exactly is empathy?

 

Simon Baron-Cohen is Sasha Baron-Cohen's cousin. I do agree he is an intelligent man but I also think he's quite wide of the mark with some of the conclusions he draws from his science.

[raydon]

This I totally agree with and this was the general sense I had upon reading the response written by SBC. Having read a number of other articles about 'supposed' lack of empathy (I will agree that I don't feel it in a 'typical' way although in the past I would have said 'the way I should' ), I absolutely know that I DO have empathy. I may not feel that bothered if someone has done something to themselves, leading to them being upset if it's something that they and/or everyone else saw coming a mile away. I would probably think more along the lines of 'well you made your bed now lie in it' although I would express some concern about how they were feeling. However, when it comes to people being flooded out of their homes or dying of malnourishment at 3 months old then I find this very upsetting and my heart reaches out to those people.

 

I had a conversation once with 2 NT friends. It was in the context of the TV series 'The Pacific' about the World War 2 war in that area and about how upsetting and graphic some of the depictions of the war were. One friend said that it was terrible that 'our boys' had to go through that and that in order to avoid all this unnecessary bloodshed it was a pity they had not invented the atomic bomb at the start of the war. Then it could simply have been dropped on Japan before they (the bad guys) had the chance to kill our boys. Now to me, apart from it being skewed logic, a complete misunderstanding of history and disregard of the value of other societies and cultures in comparison to our own, I also think it shows an absolute lack of empathy. I see a similar lack of empathy shown towards my son by people who have very little interest in knowing what living with autism is actually about. So, what exactly is empathy?

 

For me to have empathy for something, I need to have experienced it myself to actually connect and share/feel the emotion, I cannot imagine what it might be like without that initial experience.

 

As an example, LancsLad who I have never met, has mentioned having a prolapsed disc, I know that pain and feel it, but a doctor treating it has no idea of its intensity and can only observe the outward manifestations, unless of course has suffered the same misfortune.

Conversely, an old friend has recently had a major operation, I have not been through that, all I can say is "poor thing, take it easy, hope you get better soon" etc., but that's sympathy.

 

On a broader scale, seeing people being abused/killed by others completely guts me whatever side they are on, but natural disasters although I feel sympathy with the victims, leaves me with a fighting spirit of wanting to rebuild.

[Sa Skimrande]

This I totally agree with and this was the general sense I had upon reading the response written by SBC. Having read a number of other articles about 'supposed' lack of empathy (I will agree that I don't feel it in a 'typical' way although in the past I would have said 'the way I should' ), I absolutely know that I DO have empathy. I may not feel that bothered if someone has done something to themselves, leading to them being upset if it's something that they and/or everyone else saw coming a mile away. I would probably think more along the lines of 'well you made your bed now lie in it' although I would express some concern about how they were feeling. However, when it comes to people being flooded out of their homes or dying of malnourishment at 3 months old then I find this very upsetting and my heart reaches out to those people.

 

I had a conversation once with 2 NT friends. It was in the context of the TV series 'The Pacific' about the World War 2 war in that area and about how upsetting and graphic some of the depictions of the war were. One friend said that it was terrible that 'our boys' had to go through that and that in order to avoid all this unnecessary bloodshed it was a pity they had not invented the atomic bomb at the start of the war. Then it could simply have been dropped on Japan before they (the bad guys) had the chance to kill our boys. Now to me, apart from it being skewed logic, a complete misunderstanding of history and disregard of the value of other societies and cultures in comparison to our own, I also think it shows an absolute lack of empathy. I see a similar lack of empathy shown towards my son by people who have very little interest in knowing what living with autism is actually about. So, what exactly is empathy?

 

 

 

You see regarding the pacific scenario my take is again this was all about mean men, a minority who unleashed hell on the many through their own selfish desires which they always allude is for the country but country's never seem to get any better because of, and so to the premise of nuking non military personnel I find fundamentally wrong and abhorrent in that it is not they that are the problem, they are not waging war they just trying to live in the best way they can as in reality civilians are not interested in war, they not interested in losing their family members for other peoples ideals.

 

And so the same is here enacted on us through our leaders actions their foreign policy annoys other country's people and some react and take it out on the easy target, the population who have done nothing wrong whilst the leaders are unaffected beyond what they I believe are obliged to say so as to not appear heartless when in reality they are because surely they understood the likely consequences of their actions and so unaffected they continue and we become more threatened because of them leading me to understand the leaders of a country in reality do not serve their people, they serve themselves and those that enrich them.

 

Empathy I believe is motivated by experience in that one has to experience in order to feel and the more disconnected a person is the less empathy they will show, but empathy for most has levels and experience has levels and so I feel it important that leaders get to see first hand the result of their policies, not pictures or the moving image nor advisors reports but right up close and experience the aftermath of whatever and see first hand, smell first hand and feel the sorrow and pain of others, no vic up the nose to assuage the smell of burned and putrefying flesh, but the real stomach churning, vomit inducing experience then they might have a clue what empathy is and might temper their individualistic activities, basically rub their ###### noses in what they have caused.

 

(Sorry for the graphic detail, but I have been involved with the dead and injured coming back from war, straight off the aircraft and the vic ( Vicks vapour rub ) is an old trick employed by those involved in such things, it largely covers the smell of injuries which do invoke the totally natural vomit reflex even on an empty stomach, it surprising what comes up and so I am vegetarian, opposed to war and I have no trust in political leaders)

 

But as to a country not letting their leaders do what they want, the people don't get any say, not even when they protest against like the million strong protest against the invasion of Iraq in a democratic country, but Japan in WW2 was not democratic they got told what to do by their leaders, put up and shut up or else but one thing has always got to be remembered about waging war on other countries, to do so one must have first conquered one's own country and the Japanese were well and truly conquered as are we as experience shows, our leaders don't listen to us and perhaps never did, but it is only now many are waking up to that sad fact, but representational democracy is barely democracy after all.

 

My empathic stuff, is well I can't watch the news as it always gets me blubbing and movies I seem to pick up stuff in movies few others notice and that affects me too, but it was in the past I had a particular problem with being able to feel other people's moods and I would get angry for no reason, sad for no reason etc and this thing still hits me now and again, particularly when I am low myself and my repairs of machines, well I have always employed another more trustworthy fault finding technique which I could never tell others about due to it's illogical basis and that was I could sort of feel where faults were in machines in that sod half split and all that stuff I just seemed to pounce on where the fault was by intuition, the result being I was very good at machine repair and have since found a few others all ASD who experience the same, and one of those works for the USAF repairing attack helicopters.

 

Could it be empathy is in fact part of our right/wrong circuit in that what is right and wrong depends on the level of empathy one has towards whatever and the more they feel the less likely they are to cause harm through understanding how the feeling affects them and so Baron- Cohen suggests ASD don't cause harm normally, so could it be ASD people do feel but perhaps in a different way to the NT ?

[raydon]

I think people respond differently as individuals or in a group situation. There is an unwritten shared belief in an NT group which works at a deep level and probably stems from tribalism as method of identifying outsiders, eg local accents and variations in language, wearing items of clothing in a certain way, gestures etc. If you are unable to fit in with this then you are at an immediate disadvantage. I wonder if this disconnect is misinterpreted as a lack of empathy.

[raydon]

... well I have always employed another more trustworthy fault finding technique which I could never tell others about due to it's illogical basis and that was I could sort of feel where faults were in machines in that sod half split and all that stuff I just seemed to pounce on where the fault was by intuition, the result being I was very good at machine repair and have since found a few others all ASD who experience the same, and one of those works for the USAF repairing attack helicopters.

 

I have always put this down to hypersensitivity and is generally regarded as a form of dowsing. Widely used by the establishment but at the same time ridiculed, because they have no explanation.

[Sa Skimrande]

I have used dowsing before to locate a water pipe on a construction site where it was not where the services plan said it was and digging trial holes was expensive, the dowsing rods found it straight away and I marked it's path on the ground with road spray paint, six meters from where it was mean't to be ! My rods were just bent welding rods swinging in BIC pen outer liners, but they were available to buy from surveying equipment suppliers.

[Lyndalou]

Today, I've felt a profound sadness for most of the day and I believe the feeling to be that of empathy. I found out today that a local woman jumped in front of a train on Boxing Day leaving a devastated family behind. One of my neighbours was a good friend and had visited her for a gossip just before Christmas. Of course, she and no-one else either had had any idea of the torment she must have been feeling before she committed suicide. To believe that being hit by a train is the only way out....what desperation is that?

Edited December 28, 2012 by Lyndalou

[oakers]

Oh Lyndalou that is terrible Hearing things like this makes me so sad, for all involved.

 

I feel that I have empathy, and was in fact told that I have it by the psychologists that I have seen re my diagnosis. I have worked in environments where a lack of empathy would mean I couldn't really do my job properly though. They wondered if I'd learnt it as I had gone along in life, but I wonder if in some of us, it's always been there, we just need to nurture it?

 

I remember doing the AS questionnaire and there being the question about 'did you cut up worms when you were younger' or something similar and all I could think was, why the hell would I want to do that to a living creature. I think, looking back though, my empathy when younger lay with animals more so than people. The empathy for people was probably always there, just to a lesser degree than it is now.

 

(Now I wonder if any of this makes any sense!!)