Tribunal curveball?

[Jazzy'smum]

Hi all,

I am new to the forums but was wondering if any of you guys have had anything like this crop up before. My daughter goes to a wonderful special school that is residential Mon-Fri as well. She attends as a day pupil, we appealed to tribunal 4 years ago the local LEA caved in days before we were supposed to go.

We have appealed again as we needed her statement amended on parts 2,3 and 4. We are now seeking a residential place for her in the school she is at as transitioning is a nightmare and is impacting her greatly amongst other things. My daughter has very complex needs

CAMHS have written a supporting letter we have OT and Ed Psych reports all supporting the need for residential placement as well as the school supporting us. I received the bundle through the other day and have found out the Psychologist who wrote our supporting letter is a witness for the LEA! Has anyone else come across this happening before? I must admit i was quite shocked and wondered why.

 

Thanks.

[Sally44]

Both the LA and yourself can invite anyone you want as expert witness.

Any professional should be giving advice in the interest of the child.

Have you spoken with the Psychologist to ask her why the LA have asked her to attend? Do you know what her opinion is about your child staying residential. Has she put that in writing in her letter?

 

At our Tribunal I did supena the NHS SALT to attend, and the LA also asked her to attend for them too. Then our tribunal was cancelled [twice actually], and we ended up getting an independent SALT.

 

As far as I understood it at the time, the only reason the LA had asked the NHS SALT to attend was because she had recommended reducing the amount of SALT at the AR and the LA wanted her there to state her case for that. However they did not know that the same SALT had emailed me saying "I spend significantly more time on therapy with your son than is detailed in his Statement". So we correctly argued that the amount of SALT provision actually needed to meet his needs should be detailed in the Statement and as she said she used more than the 15 hours in the Statement, those hours needed to be increased, and there was no justification for seeking a reduction. We won that argument.

 

The NHS SALT also said her opinion was that a teaching assistant could deliver his social communication programme. We argued they could not because it would be group therapy with complex children and that a suitably qualified professional needed to deliver it. Again the Tribunal agreed with us.

 

So I would speak with this professional and see if you can get any ideas as to what points the LA want her to argue which are against your appeal. If there are not any, I would just ensure you have in writing from this professional their opinon that your daughter should be residential and that that letter is included in the Bundle, or taken with you on the day as late evidence.

[bed32]

Is the EP the same one who is recommending the residential placement? If so then clearly you need him to give evidence and if he is doing so as the LA witness then it will add more weight if he speaks for you. I would not worry about who calls him as a witness provided he is going to speak on your side.

 

I will say that I think appealing to go from day to residential could be extremely difficult. Have to taken any advice as to the arguments to use? You need to be very careful in presenting it as an educational need

[Jazzy'smum]

Hi, Thanks for the replies. We are all prepared and have just found out we will be having someone represent us at the hearing which is very helpful. Tribunal is in a week so all fingers crossed. I am not so worried now that the Clinical psychologist is appearing as a witness for the LA as in her letter to the tribunal she has supported us 100% so I cannot imagine any change. And if there is at least I can quote her own words back to her. Day to Residential placement has been extremely hard to prepare for, I really do not know what i would have done if i had not found the solicitor we have had help us prepare.

[Sally44]

Who are you taking as your expert witnesses?

[Jazzy'smum]

We are taking our daughters Headteacher as our witness.

[Sally44]

Do you have any independent reports from an Educational Psychologist, Speech and Language Therapist, Occupational Therapist [or whatever therapy she receives, Clinical Psychologist or CAHMS?

 

Do you know what the Head Teacher is going to say ie. what evidence she is going to use to say that she should be placed residential?

Edited February 27, 2013 by Sally44

[Jazzy'smum]

We have independent ed psych (in support), occupational therapist (in support), CAMHS have written a strong letter in support of residential (the same person the LA are taking as a witness) The school are backing us 100% so the head teacher is on our side, the LEA wrote to the school asking them to provide evidence for them, all the school could provide was the need to board so I really have no idea why the LEA have not agreed and are taking all the way to tribunal. We shall see what happens next week though.

Edited February 28, 2013 by Jazzy'smum

[Jazzy'smum]

Well i found out why the clinical psychologist supporting us is going, The LA have been talking to her and have persuaded her trying OT before boarding would be best.. which of course isn't and she is there to back them up for that. We do however still have her letter supporting boarding so not quite sure what to think, goes to show you cannot trust anything that is linked with the authority!

[Sally44]

Okay. So she is already at a special school. Does this school also have OT's employed on site? If not what OT is going to be working with your daughter. Has she been assessed by an OT. What are her OT needs eg. does she have a diagnosis of a Sensory Processing Disorder and/or Dyspraxia.

 

Residential is not the same as OT. Why does the school support residential, what are the needs for that, especially educational ones. Are you having issues at home with your daughter?

 

You could have a meeting with the ClinPsych to discuss what the LA have said to them, why she has change her mind, and argue your case for residential and how your daughter needs that provision now and that the Statement is to meet your daughters needs, and that the provision for each need should be quantified and specified by law. Ask her how an OT is going to be meeting the residential needs? Then afterwards you can put it all in a 'clarification' letter that you send to the ClinPsych/LA and SEND. But only if that discussion becomes apparent that it is in your interests to send in this letter. For example the LA may have promised something to the Clinpsych that they cannot possibly provide. NHS professionals can be quite naive about the SEN Process.

 

If the special school does not have an OT employed on site, then the NHS OT's do not go into schools and deliver 1:1 therapy for sensory integration therapy or dyspraxia. So the LA would have to buy it in. Ie. a private OT going into the special school to see your child.

 

The ClinPsych opinion could scupper your chances of residential. You can do one of two things. You can go to the appeal and see what the outcome is and ask the SEND Panel to word the Statement so that it is legally binding in all aspects including this promised OT input [and that should be detailed in terms of hours of 1:1 OT support in school each week/term and really should be delivered flexibly across the week to meet her day to day needs [which would require an OT to be employed on site]. Because your argument will be that providing xx hours per term is not going to meet her needs because the OT is not on site and therefore if your child does not engage for whatever reason she will miss that OT session until the following week.

 

And obviously you will be putting the arguments given by the school for her to be residential - and it is best that these are worded as being 'educational needs'.

 

Also is the school aware of what the ClinPsych is going to say and what is their opinon on it.

 

So if the LA win you get the Statement more specific and you closely monitor whether this OT input achieves results over the next year [up to the next AR and if it does not you appeal again]. It will also give you experience of a SEND Tribunal, which can be useful if you end up at another one.

 

Or if things just cannot continue as they are and both your child and the family need a residential placement now, then you may need to get an independent EP report and submit it to SEND, and also have them attend as expert witness. That is going to cost the best part of £3K for a decent EP to do the assessment, report and attend Tribunal. And you may or may not win, it all depends on what the school and independent EP say in their reports and at tribunal.

Edited March 2, 2013 by Sally44

[Jazzy'smum]

HIya, Sorry i think i confused things, we go to tribunal on Wednesday My daughter has, ASD, OCD, sensory processing disorder, tourettes, severe dyslexia, and anxiety disorders, she is in a Special school as a day student but this also offers residential mon-friday, Her behaviors are worse at home and she is violent and very controlling. We had independent EP and OT (the OT is the OT that works for the school not the borough). The school has SALT on site, and OT, also a specialist Dyslexia teacher.

The school support it and are requesting it and we are requesting it because she does not handle Transitioning it causes major problems and she ends up in class unable to learn for the first part of the morning because of it. Transport have to wait for her (they are only supposed to wait 3 mins) They wait upwards of 15 sometimes.

Her sensory processing disorder is off the scale at the moment, she wears no clothes around the house except a bra. This includes when she is menstrating. She deals with this better at school, she tolerates clothing and understands it has to be worn. Behaviours between home and school are very contrasting.

Her learning is affected and she needs to over learn things, she takes no responsibility for her actions and there are a bunch of other reasons too. My head is spinning at the moment after just trying to go through it all.

[Sally44]

Okay. I presume she is already receiving OT provision, therapy etc in school. And that the school is going to be saying that at the tribunal. Is the Head/OT/SENCO from the current school attending at the tribunal?

 

Have you detailed all the things as above in your Case Statement and Bundle of Documents at tribunal?

 

And you could argue that yes she may need more OT, but for the therapies, approaches and strategies to work she needs to be in a consistent environment to enable her to engage. She is growing up and cannot remain naked at home or in school. She must currently have limited access to he community? OT could work on this as it is still an educational need in the wider sense of the term. Education is not about exams, it is about preparing a child for adult life so that they are as independent and productive as possible.

 

Increased OT is not going to help your experiences in the home/community as the transitions are causing extreme upset. Her sensory needs could be met by OT. Is she receiving a set number of hours of sensory integration therapy per week/term, and is that detailed in her Statement?

 

Something that is very useful is to have a daily diary of events and things said. I know it is Wednesday that you have the appeal, but if there are issues worth recording up until then, do it and take some copies of it with you and ask for it to be admitted as late evidence. This will give the Tribunal Panel an indication of what life is like for your child and the wider family on a daily basis. Only submit it if it contains useful things like violence, stripping, refusing to leave the house or the family being unable to leave the house.

Edited March 3, 2013 by Sally44

[Jazzy'smum]

Hiya, thank you for the advice, yes the headteacher is going to be there. I shall be ringing them tomorrow to tell the of the changes in the clin psychologists stance on things so they can be prepared. She does receive OT at school but that is at the school discretion there was never any supplied in her statement. They are proposing 2 hours direct OT per term.

We are very lucky to have a pro bono Barrister representing us at the tribunal so I am hoping they will catch anything i miss and will know how to say and term things, I am not the best at making arguments and knowing what needs to be said where.

No where in the clinical psychologists letter does it say she needs OT so hopefully that will work in our favour when the LA are using her for that argument.

[Sally44]

I think that however it goes, it will mean the Statement will quantify and specify so that it is legally binding.

Do you have a Case Statement and Working Document you have submitted to SEND and do you know it inside out?

 

The Statement is basically a cut and paste job of reports or correspondence which details any needs to be included in part 2, and part 3 must quantify and specify in terms of hours of support, staffing arrangements, therapy input, specialist teaching etc.

 

2 hours direct OT per term is not much. Is anyone delivering a daily programme relating to her sensory issues?

 

I had a solicitor at our first tribunal, and for the second I took independent EP, SALT and OT and represented myself with the help or an organisation called network81.

 

Have you already submitted a diary to give the SEND Panel an insight into what family life is like outside of school hours?

[Jazzy'smum]

Hiya, yes we have a working document i am trying hard to commit to memory, our daily life is documented in the OT report, I am going over the bundle repeatedly looking over everything and making notes to refer to pages and statements made etc. I can only hope that luck is with us on the day. I had a solicitor help prepare all the documents etc so hopefully that has helped too. Well I don't think i would have been able to manage to do all of that with the stress at home myself.

[Sally44]

Yes I know how hard it is when you are also caring for someone 24/7 and being mum to other kids, and wife, and daughter to wider family etc.

 

I annotated the Working Document [but did not give an annotated copy to the LA]. So next to every need I wrote where we had got that from ie. professional, report page, para etc. Same for each provision. So that if an item was bought up I could refer to it quickly.

 

Also have a notebook with you on the day so that you can write down anything you want to challenge or which you think is not the true/full picture.

 

Let us know how it goes on Wednesday. And at least now you are prepared for what the ClinPsych may say, and so will the Head, which is much better than having it dropped on you on the day. And also highlight the fact that your child is already receiving OT input. So they need something significantly more to meet her needs and I don't think 2 hours per term is going to be meeting even her sensory needs let alone the other issues you have bought up.

Edited March 3, 2013 by Sally44