AS not coping with school

[Sally44]

As long as the school has a peer group you can go for it now. It is going to be some months before any tribunal anyway, realistically it will be sometime at the beginning of year 6.

 

BUT you ideally need your son out of school. I don't mean keeping him at home. I mean leaving things to see if he can cope on his own. If he cannot and refuses to go in, then you let him stay at home and let the school/LA try to get him back on on their own. You don't offer your help or advice. But you do cooperate.

 

Keep a daily diary of everything he says and does.

[babnye1]

I think they have recruited a new TA so I will drop back but I have only been doing an hour or so and the EP has acknowledged in an email that he is only in school because of my help.

[Sally44]

Anything you can get on paper is useful, as you are already aware.

[babnye1]

So frustrated. ISS we saw today was probably unsuitable and we would have to fight tooth and nail to get it anyway.

 

So frustrated to find old TA seemed to be part of recruitment process for new TA. Old TA was completely inept at dealing with DS and caused untold damage.

 

Then get an email from SENCO saying its not fair on the other children to stop a group project my son was working on because he can't do it anymore. No suggestion of ways they could involve my son. He got a lot out of this project but cannot now cope in a group. Do I really need to be told how unfair this on other children?

 

What am I going to do with my boy?

[Sally44]

Again, you use this email as evidence that your son is not 'included'. He isn't able to work in groups in the mainstream class, yet is able enough to do the work with support. Mainstream simply cannot be that flexible. It goes with the average/mean and those that are doing well with the way lessons are planned and delivered.

 

Why do you think the independent school was unsuitable. Was it MLD, or not a similar peer group?

[babnye1]

Supposed to be Asperger specific but clearly took in a much wider demographic. There were much older young people with very little numeracy and some children with very challenging behaviour and a black padded 'cool down' room which was a bit scary. A concrete yard was all they had for outside space too.

 

Very good class sizes and understanding but it seemed very institutional.

 

That project was supposed to be set up for my son to run too.

[bed32]

Yes - this is exactly our experience of some of the so-called Asperger specific schools. They often seem to take a range of difficulties, including some children who demonstrate challenging behaviour that would be very difficult for an AS child to deal with. The reason we didn't ask for independent at our recent tribunal was that we could not identify any appropriate school.

 

 

We are continuing to look - the advice of many of the professionals we deal with is that Dyslexia schools are actually more likely to be appropriate for a bright AS child than so called ASD schools.

 

Where abouts in the country are you?

[babnye1]

The dyslexia school we approached didn't want to know. I think they are right to be careful after the recent Tribunal case with a SpLD school which demonstrated their lack of understanding of and lack of ability to deal with ASD.

 

Also, the academic levels of the peer group may be substantially lower than average - which is why they end up in SS.

 

Ordinary independent school was suggested but again, you would need to be sure they had a very clear understanding of AS.

 

I think I might create my own provision at this rate!

[bed32]

There are one or two independent schools round here that tend to cater for children who have not really performed well in mainstream school, but don't necessarily have Special Educational Needs. They tend to be good accademically and respresent a much less stressful environment than a normal mainstream, while providing a "normal" peer group.

 

We think that these would be ideal for our son - if he could cope. Before we could consider that we would have to believe that he could cope without the 1-1 support he needs in mainstream at the moment. Just now it seems unlikely that he will mature fast enough for it to be an option.

 

Hence why we are persevering in mainstream as long as possible - if we could find the ideal independent school we would move in a shot but we think that staying in mainstream is better than moving to a less-than-perfect school.

[babnye1]

I am beginning to wonder if more creative thinking is needed - part home school, pared down curriculum etc

[Sally44]

Yes those are other options if the school/LA will work with that, and cost of an alternative maybe a good way of concentrating their minds.

 

But you also need to get into the Statement, and for the school to provide for the adjustments he needs ie. small class sizes. That may mean them suggesting an Autism/Aspergers unit attached to a mainstream, but again you may find those in the unit are not academically as capable and may have challenging behaviours also, plus the teaching may feed them across into mainstream into those large class environments he is not currently coping in.

 

Dyslexia schools would have small class sizes. Usually a good peer group academically etc. And often they do have other pupils with Aspergers too. And the high level of structure in lessons suits those with AS too.

 

I know your son has a high level of 1:1 support currently. But is the long term goal for him to be in a placement where his work is differentiated and structured to such a degree that he becomes more independent? Yet with a high level of staff:pupil ratio and where he would be taught in the class instead of being taught mainly by a TA out in the corridor?

 

Although mainstream sounds good, you have to look at exactly what your son is accessing and with whom. If he is not coping, he is a child with a high level of needs, being taught by the least qualified person ie. a TA.

 

I too don't like the sound of how you described the school you visited. Was it part of any particular group such as Priory etc?

 

Whereabouts in the UK are you.

[bed32]

Looking towards secondary placement the 1:1 support (or in our case 1.5:1) can become a stumbling block. Many schools are reluctant to consider pupils who require significant direct assistance beyond that which is provided by the school anyway, and it would be hard to win a tribunal for a placement at a school where you were also asking for such additional support.

 

If the child really requires such a high level support then the options for schooling will have to be limited to the schools that have a very high staff/pupil ratio, which in turn means the so-called ASD specific schools

 

Our feeling is that we may well have to take a chance on the secondary provision and put him into an environment that has less support than we would want ideally - but that is a high risk strategy.

[babnye1]

My son has a high level of support largely because he can't cope with being in class all the time and needs someone to be with him when he works elsewhere. He is capable of working independently but struggles with classroom environment.

 

He also struggles socially so needs a social curriculum too and time and space for alternative arrangements for break/lunch.

 

We are SW/SE border. Don't want to say much more. The dyslexia schools we have looked at seemed to think he was too much work. Like many children with AS, he needs more than small class sizes and structure, he needs understanding of AS and support for social and emotional needs. Otherwise we will be no better off than in a mainstream school which lacks understanding. I think the Tribunal decision relating to the school found guilty of discrimination shows what happens when schools say they can cope with AS and can't.

 

Ideally, he needs understanding of his needs so he can learn but I think the right learning environment is unlikely to be a mainstream classroom. However, that does provide social opportunities if handled properly and I disliked the institutionalised feeling of the ISS I saw which was a Priory school.

[oxgirl]

Ideally, he needs understanding of his needs so he can learn but I think the right learning environment is unlikely to be a mainstream classroom. However, that does provide social opportunities if handled properly and I disliked the institutionalised feeling of the ISS I saw which was a Priory school.

 

I can relate to this, but just because mainstream offers 'socializing opportunities', doesn't mean that all children are capable of benefiting from these opportunities. Plus, with a high level of support from a TA, having someone velcroed to your side for a lot of the day makes it impossible for other children to even approach a supported child. My lad was at a unit attached to mainstream and had full-time 1:1 when he went into some mainstream lessons. All the time he was there he never made a single friend, it was impossible. He left feeling more lonely and isolated than he would have if he'd had been at home full-time. He was totally separate from the other children and felt rejected by them. He learned from that place that he was weird, that he didn't fit in and that nobody wanted to be his friend; he never knew these things before. At least if he had been at home full-time he would have had the energy to access after-school activities or join social groups, as it was he was so exhausted from school he had nothing left for outside interests and was all the more lonely for it.

 

~ Mel ~

Edited April 25, 2013 by oxgirl

[babnye1]

As I say 'if handled properly'...

 

I agree with you about that reaction to school as well. It's a place where you just feel weird when at home you are just yourself.

 

But once you are HE, you lose everything and I can't HE all subjects myself and the LA won't pay for tutors.

 

Someone needs to make schools for these children. There are alot of them about!

[oxgirl]

Yes, I understand how frightening it is to lose everything, as you say. Of course, there is a heck of a lot of grief that is also lost.

 

When it comes to academic qualifications, I always try to remind people that young people have their whole lives to gain qualifications, it's not something that has to be done in a certain time-frame and then the chance is lost forever. I wish I had concentrated more on my son's social and independence skills when he was younger, then he would be better equipped to get out there into the world and persue what he wants. As it is, having had non-stop intervention from adults at school for years and years he is now so hopelessly dependant upon adults that he can't even think for himself anymore. Actually, that's a bit strong, at nearly 20, he is now starting to become a bit more independant, but it could have been so different for him.

 

Yes, there are so many kids like ours and they fall through the gap a lot of the time and suffer because of it.

 

Good luck with finding what's right for your family.

 

~ Mel ~

[babnye1]

Also it is difficult to HE if you work or have another child.

[Sally44]

Yes, I understand how frightening it is to lose everything, as you say. Of course, there is a heck of a lot of grief that is also lost.

 

When it comes to academic qualifications, I always try to remind people that young people have their whole lives to gain qualifications, it's not something that has to be done in a certain time-frame and then the chance is lost forever. I wish I had concentrated more on my son's social and independence skills when he was younger, then he would be better equipped to get out there into the world and persue what he wants. As it is, having had non-stop intervention from adults at school for years and years he is now so hopelessly dependant upon adults that he can't even think for himself anymore. Actually, that's a bit strong, at nearly 20, he is now starting to become a bit more independant, but it could have been so different for him.

 

Yes, there are so many kids like ours and they fall through the gap a lot of the time and suffer because of it.

 

Good luck with finding what's right for your family.

 

~ Mel ~

This is the approach that I have taken.

My son is now in a good school.

I wanted my son to enjoy learning.

When my son was out of school for a year and was so ill, all I wanted was for him to be happy. I would have glady said forget education, examinations etc. It was just soul destroying to see the state he was in under mainstream education.

 

He also has severe dyslexia/dyscalculia - so although he is average cognitive ability, I don't know what he will achieve. But what I do know is that his current school are using and teaching him to use, all kinds of software to help him learn and record his learning.

 

And in a similar peer group he has made friends. Children with an ASD do want to have friends, they just need support in achieving it, which is what he gets in school as well as specific 1:1 and group therapy on social skills.

Edited April 26, 2013 by Sally44

[babnye1]

It is great if you can find the right school but it seems so hard for high functioning kids on the spectrum to fit in anywhere.

[Canopus]

But once you are HE, you lose everything and I can't HE all subjects myself and the LA won't pay for tutors.

 

 

This is a lack of confidence more than anything else. The reality is that much of the secondary school curriculum is best learned as and when needed in life rather than before the age of 16 on a just it case it might be needed basis. We have the internet nowadays which makes it easy to learn secondary school material if required when one is in their 20s or 30s. The time would be better spent learning life skills and following one's interests. Never overlook the importance of casual education or assume that education isn't education unless it's taught by a qualified teacher in a classroom.

[babnye1]

Thanks. I agree but a huge motivating factor for him is that he wants to go to university so he does want to learn and go to college with his peers. I think you are right about learning important life skills too. He is quite good at lots of things at home. Its school he can't cope with!

[Canopus]

Is there a reason why he wants to go to university and what course does he want to study?

[babnye1]

I was going to add that although they cover a breadth of subjects at primary level, it seems to me that primary level science is a different kettle of fish to secondary school science and I don't have those facilities or skills at home.

 

He wants to go to university because he sees this as validating I think - he prizes his intelligence, perhaps because he lacks other skills. I am not sure what he would want to study.

 

I wonder if universities make dispensations (perhaps consider fewer GCSEs) to children in this position. You had to have 5 in my day (I am very old - or feel it!!) but everyone seems to have hatfuls of A*s to get in these days.

 

That might be a helpful way to think about it.

[babnye1]

Got AR decision through today. No amends to statement. Their reasons:

 

-His level of provision is appropriate

- Statement previously amended in Feb

- can be looked at again in a 'transition review' in summer

 

There is no evidence they have even considered his current situation or the request for SLT.

 

His statement was amended in Feb after they dragged last years AR recommendations to Tribunal. They had nothing to do with SLT

 

I can't see that this 'transition review' has any legal status as opposed to a AR. If they chose to wait til then, and didn't amend, I wouldn't have a right to appeal.

 

Should I just put ina appeal now and open up Part 4?

[bed32]

There is no harm in putting in an appeal - this is probably your last chance before transition. You of course have up to 2 months (I think) to put in the appeal. If you put it in now you are likely to get a hearing in Nov/Dec,

 

Even if you don't want to change Part 4 at this stage it would seem likely that the more you can get into Parts 2 & 3 at this stage the more control you will have over the placement come Yr 7.

[babnye1]

Thanks. Would you appeal Pt 4 too at the moment? Just to flag up he is not coping and we may need to rethink settings?

[bed32]

I think I would keep the option open - saying that you were not sure that it is the right placement and either that you are looking at alternative schools, or that you are waiting for expert advice.

 

A lot of people would advise you not to. They would say (correctly) that there is nothing to stop you modifying the the appeal later to include Part 4, and the would say that the LA might put up a better fight if they knew you were going for expensive independent provision.

 

But of course all that would be dependent on your preferred school being prepared to take him from Yr 6. If you prefer keeping him in mainstream until Yr 7 then there is no point mentioning Part 4

[babnye1]

Thanks very much. That's really helpful!

[Sally44]

If they have not amended now, that shows you that they are unlikely to amend, or consider your requests at transition for secondary.

 

Your son is capable, but his anxiety is causing him to refuse. That will continue, and he could deteriorate.

 

Keep looking for a suitable school. Even if he appears, on paper, more capable than the peers you are seeing, as long as there is not a huge difference, remember that in that 'type' of school he would get the environment, teaching approaches, therapy, and life skills that he needs. One pupil from my son's school went on to the Royal College of Art and exhibits now.

 

I would appeal on the grounds that part 2 does not contain all his needs and therefore part 3 does not contain all the provision he requires to meet his needs. Afterall, if the Statement were adequate he would be attending school with no worries. There can also be lack of confidence or low self esteem as canopus mentioned. But the fact that he is refusing and not coping points more to anxiety I think.

 

You could include part 4 now, and not name a school until later on. Or even ask IPSEA if there is case law decisions where a child has remained mainstream, BUT the class size has been reduced to 8 other peers within the mainstream setting. And I mean a permanent class size, where subjects are differentiated and taught in those classes and not an ASD unit where kids are still fed across to class sizes of 30+ pupils. Because that might be something you could fight for with the right evidence.

 

Our Tribunal date was cancelled twice. So we started appealing parts 2 and 3, and then later on completed a request for changes form, stating that it was now apparent to us that our son will never cope within a mainstream setting and naming the independent school my son now attends.

 

We also asked that the Tribunal only considered the Primary placement. Because we knew our LA had nothing additional to offer at primary and we could prove the placement had broken down. If you get to secondary stage, you maybe able to prove that the primary placement has failed, but you have no experience of the secondary placement yet and may find it harder to prove that that would also fail - although when comparing it is usually obvious that the mainstream secondary school will be more challenging to the child as it is for any child.

[bed32]

We also asked that the Tribunal only considered the Primary placement. Because we knew our LA had nothing additional to offer at primary and we could prove the placement had broken down. If you get to secondary stage, you maybe able to prove that the primary placement has failed, but you have no experience of the secondary placement yet and may find it harder to prove that that would also fail - although when comparing it is usually obvious that the mainstream secondary school will be more challenging to the child as it is for any child.

 

I think that is an important point. Your current placement is clearly failing and LA have nothing to offer (virtually no LA has any provision for bright AS children outside mainstream). Provided you have a school in mind that will take him now you probably have more chance of winning that now than if you wait for transition AND if you fail now you can have a second bite at the cherry (so to speak) at transition.

 

Sally - what age was your son when the appeal got to tribunal? How much (or little) time has to be left in primary before a tribunal will take that view?

[babnye1]

Thanks. Finding somewhere for him to go is the hard bit!

[Canopus]

I was going to add that although they cover a breadth of subjects at primary level, it seems to me that primary level science is a different kettle of fish to secondary school science and I don't have those facilities or skills at home.

Is he seriously interested in science GCSEs?

He wants to go to university because he sees this as validating I think - he prizes his intelligence, perhaps because he lacks other skills. I am not sure what he would want to study.

It's important to bear in mind whether he can survive at university. Intelligence isn't everything and academically intelligent students can struggle badly with the system and have difficulty making friends. I advise you and your son to read University, the Best Choice? by Gareth Lewis.

I wonder if universities make dispensations (perhaps consider fewer GCSEs) to children in this position. You had to have 5 in my day (I am very old - or feel it!!) but everyone seems to have hatfuls of A*s to get in these days.

Unless your son plans on studying medicine which requires 6 A grade GCSEs (all medical students have to have 3 A grade A Levels) then he can easily get into university without any GCSEs. Many home educated children have done this and it's well worth talking to the HE community. Every university department has an undergraduate admissions tutor who is your point of contact for advice and discussion. Remember that many overseas students haven't got GCSEs and universities are primarily interested in A Levels or their equivalents rather than lower level qualifications.

[babnye1]

Thank you Canopus - that is very helpful.

 

Obviously, he can't say for definite what he is interested in or what he wants to do now because he is 10. I'm jusdt keen not to reduce his options at this stage!!

[Canopus]

Obviously, he can't say for definite what he is interested in or what he wants to do now because he is 10. I'm jusdt keen not to reduce his options at this stage!!

I'm undecided over whether parents would have to try hard to reduce options for kids of this age group, or whether options are always reduced in one way or another no matter what educational setting is used. For example, home education could make the study of some science subjects difficult because of lack of access to equipment for practical work but they could open other options in being able to study many subjects not in the school curriculum. The converse will be true for school.

 

What I dislike is an attitude of parents that the NC is more important than subjects that aren't in the NC and kids should study it and get GCSEs just in case they might need them. They might never use the knowledge or the qualifications at any time in their life but they still have them just in case. Sometimes keeping options open is sacrificing the present which exists for a future which may not exist.

[babnye1]

You could be right but I also think that, with my son's difficuties, fulfilling his academic potential is one thing that might help him live a decent adult life.

 

I wouldn't sacrifice his happiness for that but I would like to find some balance,

[bed32]

You could be right but I also think that, with my son's difficuties, fulfilling his academic potential is one thing that might help him live a decent adult life.

 

I wouldn't sacrifice his happiness for that but I would like to find some balance,

That is exactly what I feel. Along with his Autism he has certain strengths and gifts. If we let his problems dominate then we end up defining him by what he can't do rather than what he can.

 

However much progress we make over the next 10 years (or more) his autism is always going to be a barrier to independent life, and a fulfilling career. In the work place there are a number of jobs where technical excellence out-weighs the social and communication issues. These are the jobs our son may excel in and may find very rewarding.

 

I have worked with several people who have been on the spectrum (if not always diagnosed) who have been highly valued for their particular skills.

 

Of course it is far too early to say that he will be able to go to a good university and so on, but it is also far too early to say that he won't. Over then next few months we have to make what is probably going to be one of the hardest, and most important, decisions of his life.

[babnye1]

That is exactly how I feel and it would be so much easier to go through the stress of this if I could identify an appropriate school. Even if that meant a huge battle at Tribunal, at least I would have something to aim for.

 

As it is, I am in limbo land - I know he can't cope in mainstream, I know he can't cope with a resource base but I've yet to see a specialsit school that fits the bill either.

[Sally44]

I understand what you are saying about achieving academically. BUT that might happen later on as our children do develop, but they maybe behind NT children academically, emotionally and socially and need those extra years.

 

My son was in year 5 when we lodged our appeal originally on parts 2 and 3. As he appeal date was cancelled the first time ie. April tribunal cancelled and new date set for June, I commissioned an independent SALT report [by the same SALT that had seen him in 2008]. Then the Tribunal date in June was cancelled [with less than 24 hours notice!], and the new Tribunal was in October [beginning of year six for my son]. So I decided the time was right to fight for immediate transfer. I commissioned an independent EP to assess my son and visit the Primary school he had refused to attend for about a year. I amended the Tribunal to include part 4 and limited the tribunal to only cover the Primary placement because the transition review and its decision on placement did not need to be finalised until the following February. We won the Tribunal and received that decision in November. My son started his independent school in December. That only give 2 months to the time of the transition review. The LA could not amend his Statement only 3 months after a Tribunal decision. So they agreed for him to remain where he was for his secondary placement.

 

Now I'm keeping an eye on how SEN law may change and whether that could affect how his current placement is funded. In the meantime i've also had his DLA re-assessed and so now he receives the high level for both care and mobility. I did this so that it was a true reflection of his needs. But also because IF changes are made, and the goal posts are moved, it is more likely to affect those with low level care or mobility.

 

How do you feel about special residential placement if you cannot find something close to home?

 

The important thing you need is a school with a suitable peer group from a diagnoses point of view and also age group.

 

When my son started at his new school he was the youngest child there. And since then it has allowed other parents to win a placement there on the grounds that there are other children of a similar age. Now the school has a primary class. My son's class [and all the classes] are mixed age. He is in a class with children who are in years 7-10. The class is based on ability/needs and vulnerability. My son's best friend is a boy with an ASD and selective mutism who is a year 10 boy.

 

There is not going to be a 'perfect' school that fulfills everything. But if the environment, teaching, therapies, peer group is as good as it can be, you would hopefully enable your child to go to school, to cope, to make progress and for the school to be able to prepare him to take the kind of examinations he is capable of taking.

Edited April 29, 2013 by Sally44

[babnye1]

OT came in today and agreed things can't go on the way they are. Currently, she described his as excluded in an inclusive environment.

 

She didn't have any easy answers regarding alternative placements though.

 

I wondered what would happen if I stopped taking him in. It was such a stress today and the younger one has started crying in the mornings as he knows we are going home earlier in the day. My son would refuse to go in without me. The head wasn't sure how this would be treated.

[Canopus]

fulfilling his academic potential is one thing that might help him live a decent adult life.

Academic potential is a term that lacks precise definition and only the individual knows what their true potential is. Teachers have a habit of saying that the kids they teach do not live up to their potential, but in reality they just want kids to get better GCSE grades because it gives them kudos and bumps up the school's position in the league tables. Parents shouldn't push kids down paths they don't want to go down on the basis that they are clever and otherwise it's a waste of a brain. Some kids decide they have had enough of a subject at a particular time and this should be respected. I have encountered kids that have taken their GCSEs early but it doesn't mean that they are clever and neither does it mean that it is a waste if they don't continue the subject to A Level.

 

What you do not want to do is focus almost entirely on academics with the belief that the social side will develop naturally because it won't. There is not a lot worse than becoming an unemployable genius. The social skills and life skills are just as important and what really matters are those for life outside school rather than those required to fit in with a peer group at school. Most AS kids cannot become natural teenagers and trying to force them to develop the social skills for teenage peer groups and embracing teenage subculture will destroy them. Listen to advice from adults with AS because it is usually better than that from so called professionals.