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Hi,

 

My son is in year 10 of a mainstream comprehensive school. He has 1:1 support and a statement of special education needs. He has always had some time out of lessons to overlearn and complete homework (which he will not do at home). however, this year has been a nightmare. He is refusing to go into class, he steals scissors and self harms (in a superficial fashion) , he has ripped up all his school books and he retreats to his room at home and talks constantly about how hopeless he feels. He has a diagnosis of moderate depression as well as AS, and he is already significantly behind with his school work. he is under CAMHS and has weekly sessions with a therapist. Today he has been excluded from school for refusing to enter the classroom, refusing to work, banging on walls and stabbing himself with scissors. The exclusion is only until Monday, but school have said they do not know how to cope with him

 

 

Please can you offer us any advice. I do not know whether to withdraw him from school or seek specialist provision or what.

 

Thanks.

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It is clear that the current provision is not meeting his needs. Are you happy that they are fully implementing the statement in its current form? When was the last annual review?

 

Your next action should be to ask the school to carry out an immediate emergency review on the basis that things are clearly going seriously wrong. They can call this at any time and if they admit that they can't cope then they should be happy to do so.

 

It is good that the school are saying the can't cope - it would be even better to get that on the record. Faced with that the LA will have little alternative but to move him. You should start looking around to see what is available in your area, either maintained or independent - the next step from mainstream is likely to be mainstream with a unit - and that may well be more appropriate than a specialist school (that is just my personal prejudice).

 

If you can go into a meeting with school and LA with a reasonable alternative placement in mind then there is a good chance the LA will agree pretty quickly.

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Get in touch with your Local Authority education department and ask them to send you their list of maintained, non-maintained, approved and independent schools for secondary age children.

 

What key stage level is he working at, and what examination results is he expected to get.

 

What is your son saying is making him so frustrated, upset and angry?

 

My son refused school for about a year in primary year 5. He moved at the beginning to year six to an independent ASD specific school. There are some independent schools for more capable children, but not many.

 

An AS Unit might help, but your son needs to be with similar children. If the unit is used for those with more severe autisim, or challenging behaviour, then that is not going to work.

 

But you, and everyone must take this self harming seriously. He is doing it because he is not coping, and that cannot carry on indefinately.

 

Could he drop some subjects? Could he have more breaks? Infact they should do anything that will help him with whatever it is he is struggling with, and I hope that he is able to tell you what that is. What is he feeling hopeless about?

 

Whereabouts in the UK are you.

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Hi,

 

Thank you for your helpful responses. My son is working at key stage 4. He has a target of 5 GCSEs at C or above. However, he has never coped well with pressure and I think the whole atmosphere of school in KS 4 is highly charged and the significance of working towards GCSEs is driven home strongly. Yet, apart from school, my son has given up nearly all his interests. He used to be very interested in meteorology, but he has torn up all the work he did on the subject and refuses to talk about it. He is doing the minimum of subjects required and one of his GCSEs is Vocational Life Skills which takes him away from school. However he has run off from his placement twice and school are worried about him continuing VLS for safeguarding reasons. He talks about thunderstorms in his head and how the depression is destroying everything. We have a meeting with school and CAMHS next week, but I don't know what to suggest.

 

We live in North Yorkshire.

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I don't know anything about this school, but this came up when I did a google search for "Aspergers school in North Yorkshire".

 

http://www.breckenbrough.org.uk/

 

It would probably involve an Educational Tribunal. What you could do is ask for an early review of his Statement [depending on whether the AR is anytime soon]. And at that review state that you want your child to go to Breckenbrough school.

 

He would need to have spent some days with them, and for them to have offered him a place in writing. This school goes up to age 19, so he should get a couple of years there.

 

In any case I would advise you go and visit first yourself. Also ask them about any other Aspergers specific school in this area, and also ask them what college they feed into.

 

As he is not coping well now, it is a real possibility that he could end up refusing school altogether. And if this does happen, that would strengthen your case for a school like Breckenbrough which has children like your son, and can meet his needs and where he would be until age 19, and hopefully sit examinations and do well in them.

 

Importantly they have a school psychologist, which is something your son needs with his depression, anxiety etc. So ask the school what level of input they provide as part of their standard fees. It is important that he has 'given up' on all his other interests. He has depression, this is a mental illness which is not currently being supported, and which is being exacerbated by his current school placement that is causing such distress to him.

 

Also ask Breckenbrough if they have any other therapist on site, and whose services are provided within the fees eg. speech and language therapist, occupational therapist, specialist teaching for dyslexia or similar. Because if your son has those needs, and the school don't provide them as standard, you need to get additional quotes for the school to "buy-in" that expertise.

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Although the costs of fees looks substantial, remember that the whole point of a Statement is that it should identify each and every need in part 2 [and I bet yours does not], and there must be provision for each of those needs in part 3 [which will not be there currently]. Parts 2 and 3 added together give a picture of the kind of school that child needs, and that school should be named in part 4 of the Statement.

 

My son's statement is currently ASD specific, and day places are about the same cost as Breckenbrough. He has an additional funding of around £10K for a specialist teacher for dyslexia. He has additional funding of around £15K for one night residential a week. And he gets those things because that is what the Statement says, and the LA is responsible to fund the Statement regardless of who is supposed to provide the service.

 

You may need to get some additional independent reports. The most important is from an Educational Psychologist. Then if your child needs speech and language therapy [and social communication therapy] - which is not currently provided at Breckenbrough, then you would need an independent report to state what his difficulties are and what 1:1 input he needs from a qualified speech therapist, so that that can be included in the Statement. And you could need to provide two quotes from SALTs on what their fees would be to go into Breckenbrough. The same applies to Occupational Therapy.

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At this forthcoming meeting. Before you ask for an early Review or mention Breckenbrough. MAKE SURE THAT YOU, OR SOMEONE WITH YOU TAKES MINUTES OF THE MEETING AND WRITES DOWN WHAT PEOPLE SAY VERBATIM.

 

If the school say that they cannot meet his needs. Or that they have safeguarding issues, or that they don't know what else they can do etc, then get that in the minutes. Because as soon as you bring up an independent school, the LA will put pressure on his current school to say that they can meet his needs. So get the evidence in writing now.

 

If they don't say anything like that, say what they have said to you eg. "you have told me that you have safeguarding issues with my son because he has run away from school a number of times".[so that that gets into the minutes as well as their response]. Also state that they have said they cannot do anything more for him - if that is what they have said. Or ask them if there is anything else they can do. Make sure it is them doing all the talking.

 

If they ask you "what do you want", reply by saying "It is not about what I want, it is about xxxxxx being supported in school to the extent that he is coping, and making progress. At the moment he is deteriorating and there is a real risk he could become so ill that he refuses school."

 

At the end of the meeting you can sum up by saying that after everything that has been discussed, nothing additional or different has been suggested and therefore you want an early Annual Review of the Statement as your child is not coping currently. Infact at this stage you don't even need to mention Breckenbrough. You can do that as part of the early Review of the Statement and when you lodge your appeal to SEND [because the LA will not agree to fund Breckenbrough], you can put that as part of the reasons why you are lodging the appeal ie. "Part 2 does not contain all his needs, Part 3 does not quantify and specify provision for each of those needs and parents wish part 4 to name Breckenbrough school as the placement."

 

Also when you visit Breckenbrough, ask them if your local authority funds any other placements at their school. If they do, it makes it easier for your child to get there too.

Edited by Sally44

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It certainly seems that his current placement is not appropriate and they are struggling to meet his needs. It seems likely that the other issues you see with his behaviour are a result of the stress he feels at school.

 

It is somewhat harder to know what you should be doing now.Sally's information about tribunals is good - but the process is fairly long (not to mention expensive). Furthermore at this stage you do not have a route to get to tribunal - you need an annual review or an emergency review. From where you are now it could well take a good 6 months to get to tribunal. Given he is in year 10 that could disrupt his schooling badly.

 

I think at this stage you should be working with the LA to get the best possible option they are prepared to give - and then if you don't like that then consider the tribunal route.

 

You need to consider all the options carefully anyway - independent schools can be very good but they tend to take pupils who have failed in mainstream rather earlier than yr 10 - often yrs 5-7, it may be your son's needs are less complex so they are not appropriate.

 

Other options worth considering are schools that are more SALT/Dyslexia focussed - they often also cater very well for AS kids. There are also schools that are not specialist schools, but cater for children who do not thrive in mainstream for a variety of reasons.

 

Or perhaps it would work just to move to another mainstream school that has an ASD unit - not necessarily to be in the unit but just so that the school has abundant ASD experience on site to help and advise.

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The problem with seeking another type of school other than ASD specific is that they too are going to cost a similar figure [if independent], and the LA will argue that it is not a suitable peer group because it is catering for a different type of SEN.

 

If you begin the Appeal process to SEND [by seeking an early Annual Review or an Emergency Annual review and then appealing the outcome], you can pull out of that Appeal at any stage, and by being in the appeal process it does concentrate the minds of the LA. You don't want to wait and see what the LA does - which will be very little - and then have to go through the process anyway. So start the process and follow it through. Infact I would not recommend pulling out of an appeal unless the LA agrees to fund the placement of your choice and you have that in writing, and they have amended the Statement to say that.

 

Yes, year 10 is quite late. But the self harming and depression sounds serious. And the school I've highlighted goes up to age 19. And from the OP, it seems quite possible that this child could be out of school quite soon if nothing additional or different is offered.

 

I think a visit to this independent school would help you come to a decision. But don't mention it to the school or LA.

 

You have this meeting, so go and see what the school suggest. Has the school invited anyone else to attend? Because the school cannot do anything additional without the LA agreeing to fund it, so you need someone from the LA to be at the meeting.

 

In my experience, having an ASD unit on site did not add any further expertise to the actual mainstream part of the school as they appeared to function quite separately.

 

Because there are always not enough places for ASD children, it is often the case that ASD Units within mainstream schools are still filled with children who are the overspill from the special schools, and who are not able to access mainstream.

 

And for many children, across the whole range of high or low functioning, the whole point is that they cannot access mainstream because of how mainstream is ie. large classes, lots of change, teaching is not ASD friendly etc.

 

If your child does have another SEN, such as dyslexia, then yes you could look at dyslexia specific schools ie. via the CRESTED website, and some of those do also have Aspergers pupils too.

 

To win an educational tribunal you have to prove that the school of your choice is the ONLY one that can meet the childs needs. Breckenbrough has a Psychologist on site. From my experience, we do not get any input from CAHMS, other than medication, and we get no input from Clinical Psychology because they are an 'acute' service ie. offering a few weeks support at times of crisis. They do not provide on-going therapy for anxiety, self harm or depression either in the hospital or within the school. So by highlighting this as a need in the Statement in part 2, at the present time it would appear that only Breckenbrough could provide any provision to be quantified and specified in part 3 of the Statement. So you need those needs in part 2.

 

By all means look at other mainstream schools with ASD units, but again that would involve moving him to yet another mainstream provision, in year 10, when he is very vulnerable and not coping at his current placement which has known him for some years.

Edited by Sally44

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I also would not withdraw him from school. Look at the independent school. If, in the meantime, he does deteriorate and refuse school, then that works in your favour regarding seeking a specialist independent placement. If, at the end of the appeal process, if you do not get what you are after, then you could consider home schooling. But don't even suggest that now, because the LA would love you to do it because they then have no responsibility at all for your child.

 

So although home schooling does work for some children, play that card close to your chest. Look into it, but don't suggest you might do it. And if home schooling becomes the only option, then at least you will have found out about it beforehand.

 

The SEN process is not pro-active. It is really about crisis management. Nothing is provided unless it is proven to be essential. So as long as he is engaging in mainstream education, they will try to keep him there. Most children that go to independent schools have been school refusers and are not in education at the time of the Educational Tribunal.

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One thing I did was to ask the Clinical Psychologist how much force I should use to get my son into school. She said I was to only use gentle encouragement. I asked her to put that in writing as advice to me, and she did. Once I had that I knew that my son would not be in school because by that stage I was practically wrestling him into his clothes - trying to keep him dressed - trying to feed him [because he would refuse to eat], and then I would have to man-handle him into the taxi to take him to school. He was often sick in the taxi, or on arriving at school, and they would phone me to come and get him. It was a nightmare.

 

Your child sounds like he is capable. But he is running away, self harming, depressed etc. Any SEN Panel are going to see that his current placement and current level of provision is not working for him. The next step from 1:1 in mainstream, is for him to be in a special school with a similar peer group. The LA do not have those types of school. They only have special schools for children with MLD or physical disabilities/difficulties. So the only route is independent school.

 

When you visit the school you should see straight away whether the other children are like yours. You can ask for a tour of the school and sit in on a class etc. Ask them if they will carry out any assessments, or produce any report about your child and his time with them [which is usually around 3 days].

 

Your child might need a graduated introduction to this new school. My own son started his school with just two afternoons a week, which were meeting with just the speech therapist and the occupational therapist. He did that for about 4 weeks before we gradually began to increase the amount of time he spent in school. It took about 9 months to get him in full time again.

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Please excuse a bit of thread drift - but I think it is a useful discussion in a wider context.

 

I don't know about the situation in Yorkshire, but round here (SE) there are a lot of good non-ASD options that have been recommended to us by experts who have assessed our son. The benefit of these schools is that they pupils tend to be of higher cognative ability than those in most AS/ASD schools, and provide a better role models (in the social sense) than in an ASD school.

 

Most of these have much lower therapeutic provision and staffing levels, and so are much cheaper (the cheapest was about 10% of the cost of the most expensive ASD schools) and so the LA is likely to be very sympathetic to that sort of saving!

 

We are in the process now of selecting the school for our son who is now in Yr 6 and we have looked at >30 schools, some no more than 30 minutes discussion over the phone but some involving several visits with our son.

 

In our experience what makes the AS schools stand out is (a) The level of therapy, (B) the overall level of support (e.g. waking night time staff in boarding provision) © ASD focused work such as "Life Skills".

 

In our case the need for the therapy (particularly OT/SI) is the overriding factor that means AS specific provision is necessary - but if that weren't the case we would be looking much more at the Dyslexia-type schools (many of which also cater for mild AS) as they tend to provide a "better" academic environment.

 

You also tend to find that the AS schools tend to focus more on residential provision - because they can work much better with AS/ASD difficulties in the context of a 24 hr curriculum - I often think that pupils who attend those schools as day pupils are almost missing the point and certainly can't get the whole benefit.

 

Pretty much all my understanding about AS is with children like my son. Those who begin to struggle in mainstream around Y4-5 and for whom a mainstream placement is a total non starter. For these children I am sure the specialise AS schools represent the best provision but at the same time I recognise their disadvantages and wish that we had other options available. If a child has survived to Y10 then he is clearly a lot less impaired in some aspects than most children in the AS schools so I would automatically assume the same provision is appropriate.

 

The best thing is to talk to as wide a range of schools as possible - everything from residential ASD to small mainstream - to see which makes most sense. Any school will be more than happy to discuss your particular issues and advise as to whether they can help. Most are also able to give you a much better overview of SEN provision in the area than the LA and will be happy to suggest schools they think are more appropriate if they are not the right placement

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I understand what you are saying about costs. But when going to a tribunal you have to be going to ensure that the Statement is a true reflection of the child's needs. So every need/difficulty must be in part 2, with provision to meet each of those needs in part 3.

 

What the LA will do, if you seek a placement at a school that costs more than mainstream, but does not cater for the needs as per the Statement, is to simply argue that the parental choice of placement is not suitable. And the Panel would agree.

 

You cannot be arguing that all the needs must be met, and then choose a school that cannot meet them.

 

And you cannot name a Dyslexia specific school UNLESS your child has dyslexia. Yes those schools are more ASD friendly in the class sizes [usually around 8 per class], and in the teaching approaches that take into consideration the difficulties that those with Dyslexia have ie. problems with organisation, sequencing, short term and working memory - because those difficulties are also common ASD difficulties too. But a Tribunal Panel would not agree to place a child in a Dyslexia specific school UNLESS they had a diagnosis of dyslexia. And the LA would also argue that it was not a suitable peer group if the child did not have that diagnosis of dyslexia.

 

I agree that parents should visit as wide a range of possible school placements as possible.

 

How SEN law works is very specific. In our case, my son had a diagnosis of dyslexia as well as an ASD and other co-morbid disorders. If I had not provided the Tribunal with quotes of costings for a dyslexia teacher to be bought in, the LA would have argued that my choice of ASD specific school could not meet all his needs. And they would have been right, and the Tribunal Panel would have refused the placement on the grounds it could not meet ALL my sons needs. So be very careful in ensuring you identify all the needs, and then ensure that your choice of school can provide provision/support/therapy/specialist teaching for each of those needs - and if they cannot get quotes so that your parental choice of school could receive additional funding from the LA to buy those services in.

 

Please read this paragraph twice, because it is VERY IMPORTANT. Sometimes parents lose a Tribunal and their child stays mainstream and the reason they lost the Tribunal was not because the Panel thought the current school could meet the child's needs, but because the parental choice of school did not have sufficient provision to meet the child's complex needs either. I know that sounds bizzare, as it means the child goes back to a mainstream school that is even less capable of meeting the child's needs than the parental choice of school. But that is how the system works. And that is what many parents don't get. They think the LA/Panel are more likely to go with the "cheaper" option. But the Cheaper Option is cheaper for a reason. It does not have what the other more expensive placement does. So make sure the school you choose can meet all the needs from within their standard fees, and if it cannot make sure the school agrees that with additional funding for x, y and z [and you provide quotes for that provision], that they can meet all the needs of the child.

 

Be under no illusion. Local Authorities know how the SEN system and SEN Law works. I helped a parent who had exactly the above problem. Weeks before the actual tribunal the LA notified SEND that the parental choice of school could not meet all the child's needs. And the parental choice of school agreed that they couldn't meet all the needs. So the parent was in a panic, thinking the Tribunal would fail. What I advised her to do was to identify what it was that her choice of school could not provide, and to find a school that could. She found one. It was more expensive. She won the tribunal. She too had been thinking that the LA would go with the cheaper option. The LA had seen that as a way of them winning the Appeal. And they notified the parent of this fact days before the Tribunal. So they knew what they were doing. And they had done it that way to try to ensure the Tribunal failed. And this parent was fortunate that there was an ASD specific school in her area that had places.

Edited by Sally44

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Just to add. There is no monetary limit on what a Statement needs in terms of £'s to fund it. Nowhere in SEN Law does it say a Statement will fund SEN up to £xxx. Also a Statement is a legally binding document on the Local Authority. That is why LAs try to avoid giving Statements at all costs. Because under SEN law LA's are responsible to fund the Statement regardless of who is supposed to provide the provision.

 

That is why LAs try to get any NHS therapy into part 6, as they only have to fund anything in part 3. But if Speech and Language Therapy, and Occupational Therapy, and Physiotherapy, and specialist teaching etc etc are all in part 3, then the LA has to fund it, even if the NHS does not provide it. Infact, getting your choice of school is easier if the mainstream does not provide it and the NHS does not fund it, but you have reports stating the need and quantifying the provision needed.

 

The NHS does not provide any therapy for Sensory Integration Therapy [as provision for Sensory Processing Disorder], or for Occupational Therapy for Dyspraxia. The NHS does not fund it. But if your child needs it, and you find a school that can provide it, then the LA must fund it. If the child was mainstream and was going to remain mainstream, then the LA would have to fund it so that the school could buy in that therapy.

 

The different between mainstream and an independent school is that the LA is always going to be trying to reduce the provision in the mainstream school, whereas at an independent special school all the therapy is provided as part of the standard fees. So they are not continually trying to reduce the level of therapy - because they provide it automatically.

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With continued apologies for hesitation, repetition and most of all deviation :)

 

I accept what you are saying Sally, I was rather starting from the assumption that the parent's choice of placement is genuinely the right one for the child and so by definition can meet all his needs. It seems very strange to think of going to tribunal for a school that has not explicitly stated they can meet the child's needs. I know it is a difficult area, but parents really need to take responsibility for understanding their child's real needs and matching that against the best possible provision in their area. No one is going to do that for you :( The problem is parents tend to start off with the assumption that somehow the LA has the child's best interests at heart, and should know best as that is their job. By the time they find out the truth (that all the LA wants to do is save money and effort) they have, at least, wasted months and may end up being tricked/bullied into inadequate or inappropriate provision.

 

The non AS specific schools we considered were all recommended by professionals who had assessed our son in depth (e.g. our expert witness and solicitor) and who had experience of getting AS children into those schools through tribunal - so it really is not as simple as saying only an ASD school can meet the needs. In fact for one of them our solicitor was pretty sure we could win on cost, as their fees were less than the cost to the LA of all the dedicated provision they have to put into his current mainstream setting. That said I don't really think the argument on cost is a good one to make.

 

One of the oddities of the tribunal system is that the cost of the placement doesn't usually come into it. If you are suggesting a placement that can meet his needs, and the LA is suggesting one that you can prove cannot, then the tribunal should go with your placement irrespective of the cost - so within reason the cost of the provision does not matter.

 

Where cost and the cheaper option can come into it is when negotiating with the LA. If they think you can win a more expensive placement in front of the tribunal then they may be more willing to give you the cheaper option without the appeal. Reading this forum you could get the idea that you only get into these schools via tribunal appeal. In fact talking to the schools themselves they tend to say that up to half the pupils come without tribunal, so it does happen if you present your case well.

 

But all I am really trying to do is to encourage the OP to consider all options rather than assuming that specialist ASD provision is always the best solution. Have a look at schools in the area that characterise themselves as SALT or Dyslexia but that also take mild AS and see if any of those might suit.

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I agree it doesn't always have to be ASD independent school. But LAs know the system inside out and parents don't. Parents may get their choice of school without a tribunal IF the LA think they could win an independent placement which is more expensive - but that then begs the question that if the LA believes your child would win such a placement, why are parents looking for something cheaper [which by definition must mean less therapy or specialist teaching or larger classrooms etc].

 

Parents do feel intimidated by the costs of other provisions, and that is why I bought up the subject of not necessarily looking for the cheapest [and not looking for the best either, because tribunals do not agree that children should have the 'best' education, just an 'adequate' one]. So you really need to know all the child's needs/difficulties and ensure that the Statement contains them all, with provision in part 3, and then look at what school can deliver that Statement.

 

Children with an ASD tend to have similar difficulties in similar areas. So usually parents end up looking for a school with small class sizes of around 8 pupils. Therapies on site for Social Communication, Speech and Language, Dyspraxia and Sensory Integration Therapy [which all children with an ASD must have to a clinically significant level to get a diagnosis]. And some have other co-morbid needs such as specific learning difficulties [Dyslexia, problems with executive functions, short term and working memory difficulties].

 

If the child is cognitively able that rules out LA special schools which are all SLD or MLD. Autism Units usually have the overspill of more severely autistic children who cannot get a place in a special school.

 

So that leaves mainstream. Or Non-maintained, but still mainstream. A small school may help some children, but will it be enough that they cope and continue to make progress. And those schools will not be providing any therapy for the needs they will have regarding social communication, sensory, and motor difficulties. But you could get funding for a specialist teacher for something like Dyslexia, and you could get funding for SALT and OT to be bought into that school. However as that is an 'add-on' to that school, the LA will try to get that provision removed asap. I suppose you could have the benefit of your child being with other NT children, but that does not mean they will be accepted by those children, or that they won't be bullied. I know that that also happens in independent ASD schools, but it is picked up on quickly and dealt with.

 

Yes the OP should look at as many schools as they can, because it is often by looking that you see the one that is best suited for your child. And they should try to identify what it is about the current school that is distressing their child so much.

 

In our case we also looked at ASD Units. And apart from them containing children that were not a suitable peer group for my son [as most were non-verbal or had challenging behaviours], they also stated that any child 'capable' would be fed across to mainstream classes. And that was the whole area my son was not coping in. He needed smaller classes, lots of adult support and his work differentiated for both autism and dyslexia. He has such high sensory issues that mainstream buildings/classes are not an option. Even now he struggles in a class of 8.

 

If a parent is not going for an ASD specific school and all that that contains as part of the standard package. The parent has to be able to demonstrate why only their choice of school can meet the child's needs. If it is just about therapy etc, then the LA can argue that they will buy that in where the child is currently placed. The only area that is going to have a real difference is in class sizes, teaching approaches, peer group etc [if the parental choice is different in those areas].

 

If there is very little difference, then I think that the monetary cost would have to be close to that of the mainstream. I am not sure whether the difference can be £5K or £10K for the panel to almost automatically agree the parental choice. IPSEA.org might have more information on that. Because the LA must go with the parental choice of school unless it is a poor use of resources or not a suitable peer group or to the detriment of the other pupils. And there is a monetary figure in these cases that the Panel do consider.

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The only other thing I would add, is that the OP has to take into consideration whether their parental choice of school does have similar children with similar needs to theirs, and that they can see that their child would cope and remain there for the duration. As there is little point moving a child to a school and they then drop out anyway due to anxiety etc.

 

And it is only special schools [and ASD specific], that go up to age 19.

 

From the OP it seemed to me that it was very unlikely for this child to remain mainstream due to his depression, self harming and anxiety. He is also in year 10, and so a move to anywhere other an ASD specific that goes up to age 19 is not worth attempting.

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Hi

 

We are going to the meeting tomorrow with the Head of Learning Support and the lead in CAMHS. My son receives 24 hours of 1:1 support a week. He was excluded from school on Friday and 'reintergrated ' on Monday. He has a tough disciplinary with the Headmaster, the Head of Safeguarding and the Head of Learning Support. He will be in isolation tomorrow, mainly because school cannot ensure his safety at his Vocational Life Skills placement because he absconded from there last Thursday. Since the disciplinary, my son has attended classes. As I said, he has 1:1 support in all classes and the TA has commented in his communication book that he has attempted some work (in maths and Geography, two subjects he finds very stressful). It could be perceived, therefore that the 'gloves off' approach has been effective. However, I work in a large college of further education and, in my experience, I have found that the effects of a short, sharp, shock are usually short lived. Almost invariably, student behaviour regresses after about two weeks because the underlying issues (medical, behavioural, social or economical) have not been addressed. I am not being pessimistic, but I expect the problematic behaviour to return after Christmas.

 

Breckenbrough have contacted me very recently because I took Sally's advice and asked for more information. I m going to see what school and CAMHS suggest as an action plan for a way foraward and for a unified response to the behaviour if (when) it returns. I will contact Breckenbrough after the meeting tomorrow.

 

I would really like my son to schieve his GCSEs if possible. However, simply attending class and attempting work does not get students through exams. If he cannot cope with GCSEs, despite his academic ability (and I think this is likely), I will see if school can offer an alternative, less stressful curriculum, maybe with vocational studies at a local college and BTEC or NOCN qualifications. If this is not possible,, I have some very good advice from this thread about a possible next step. However, what I do not want is a very vulnerable boy with mental health difficulties forced through a system that will fail him academically and break him psychologically.

 

I will let you know what happens tomorrow.

Edited by hsmum

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The exclusion/punishment may work initially because children on the spectrum do want to do what is right. It is not a case of them being naughty. They are not coping, are in very stressful situations and get overloaded and overwhelmed. The "fight or flight" response is a natural reaction.

 

My son used to get so stressed that he vomitted. And I remember going into school to collect him, as he had been sick yet again. He was supposed to be in the school play, and he had vomitted during the rehearsal. When I said I was taking him home he said "But what will Mr xxxxx do? I am his best one."

 

At that stage my son had not even connected the fact that his vomitting was due to stress.

 

Many kids on the spectrum have difficulties monitoring their emotional state. So they keep on with things until they explode.

 

My son is very aware of rules, and likes to keep to them.

 

My son tried very hard for years to do what was expected of him in school. Until it got to a stage where he could not cope with anything because his anxiety was so high.

 

Anxiety is part of being on the autistic spectrum. That is fact. So learning how to recognise your emotional state, and learning ways to cope is really important.

 

I don't know if my son would have developed OCD anyway, or whether it was years and years of chronic levels of stress that eventually took their toll. What I do know is that nobody acknowledged how very ill he was and how hard he was trying to comply. They just kept the pressure on me to keep ensuring he went into school day after day. When he did eventually become too ill he was out of school for about a year, and it took about another 9 months to gradually integrate him into his new school.

 

You know that his behaviour and experiences are not 'normal' or good for him to have to endure day after day. If he were an adult, and he was having this level of anxiety in his work, he could leave and find another job. But school isn't like that is it. It is mandatory, and if your child is not coping mainstream it is very hard on the whole family.

 

Good luck for tomorrow.

Edited by Sally44

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It is likely that the behavioural issues you are seeing are a sign that he has other fundamental needs that are not being met - that at least is the way with many ASD children but of course I don't know your son.

 

If that is the case then punishments / exclusion on their own will only make things worse. You should consider working with 2 strategies in parallel. Firstly trying to eliminate stress from his life as much as possible (difficult) and secondly teaching him to recognise his feelings and respond to them in a more appropriate way. He needs to have strategies in place to cope with the various pressure points. Once he has such strategies in place you can consider using punishments for failing to follow them.

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Hi,

 

We went to the meeting. The Head of Learning Support from my son's school, the Senior Psychologist from CAMHS and a member of the council came, along with my husband and me. We discussed the current situation and his very recent 'improvement' in behaviour and acknowledged that the conformity may only be temporary. Apparently the Headmaster of the school, someone my son respects because they have a shared interest in meteorology, has made my son promise to attend lessons and although my son has made moves towards refusing a class, he has been coaxed back in when his TA has told him that if he does not attend, he will have to explain to the Head why he has broken his promise. It was considered prudent that he has another talk with the Head after Christmas to spur him on. The Senior Psychologist suggested that whilst my son is depressed, the depression is accentuated because he focuses upon it so closely (which is possibly a trait of his AS). It was also suggested that my son has always been afraid of failing, which is correct, and perhaps the depression, whilst genuine, has provided him with, what he considers to be, a valid excuse for not attending lessons and therefore avoiding assessment. Medication was discussed, possibly a mild anti-depressant which might take the edge of the depression and which may sort of take away the 'excuse'.

 

My own feelings are that if my son is looking for an excuse to fail on his own terms, he will find this whether his depression is there or not. Furthermore, his behaviour at home has changed: he is reclusive, he has stopped doing the things he once enjoyed including cycling and studying meteorology and he does not sleep well, so I am sure his mental health is not good. I also feel that the 'promise' he made to the Head may well motivate him now, but there is a real possibility that if his mood slips again, he will 'break' the promise and this will lead to guilt and a deeper sense of failure. Another thing my son mentions frequently is his lack of friends and I think like many young people on the spectrum, he wants friends but does not know how to make them.

 

I was left a little confused by the meeting because the evidence suggests that he may be using the diagnosis of depression as a way of avoiding something he finds stressful but if that is the case, he may well find another form of avoidance is that excuse is eliminated or its effectiveness is reduced. On the other hand, his depression may have resulted in the behaviour and this return to conformity may be something he cannot sustain.

 

The Head of Learning Support reported that my son had worked very well in isolation and had produced more work than she has seen him produce for a long time, so the comments Sally made above may well be true, he may find isolation is a preferable way of working. If so, then I do not mind if he spends more time there, but not as a punishment.

 

Thank yu again for the support. I will keep you informed about what happens.

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"My own feelings are that if my son is looking for an excuse to fail on his own terms, he will find this whether his depression is there or not. Furthermore, his behaviour at home has changed: he is reclusive, he has stopped doing the things he once enjoyed including cycling and studying meteorology and he does not sleep well, so I am sure his mental health is not good. I also feel that the 'promise' he made to the Head may well motivate him now, but there is a real possibility that if his mood slips again, he will 'break' the promise and this will lead to guilt and a deeper sense of failure. Another thing my son mentions frequently is his lack of friends and I think like many young people on the spectrum, he wants friends but does not know how to make them."

 

TOTALLY AGREE. I'm afraid what you have been told is LA speak for getting out of having to do anything.

 

And by him being asked to "promise" to attend, when he cannot cope, how is he going to feel about himself when he does break that promise - because he will do - because he is refusing FOR A REASON, and is not making it up.

 

Why does your son say he is refusing classes? Is no-one trying to find out why, and if he has said why is no-one trying to do something to make it easier for him?

 

They've latched onto one incident and have labelled it as an improvement. It isn't. He has Aspergers and very likely sticks to rules and knows that promises should be kept, and therefore he will try to keep it. He should never have been asked to promise such a thing.

 

Who took minutes?

 

So you've had a meeting where no-one has acknowledged there is any concerns, and where nothing additional or different has been suggested or provided.

 

Did you state the above at the meeting? If so what was the response, if any.

 

What did the school say?

 

What did CAHMS say about the 'depression' being an excuse? After all why medicate for something that isn't there? And if it is depression, and he does need medication, then he isn't using it as an excuse is he?

 

When is the Annual Review?

 

I'm not surprised it was a meeting that amounted to nothing. I've had lots of them, and still have them! Infact having them at the moment with social services and social care.

 

I suggest that you make your own notes from memory. When the minutes come read through them. If there is anything missing, or interpreted differently, or anything promised or suggested that isn't in there - write a letter to the LA Officer and copy in the school and CAHMS and detail every single thing, including the fact that he is not using depression as an excuse to refuse school. He is refusing school because he is not coping with many things and this is the cause of the depression.

 

Also state how he is at home and how he is not doing things he used to enjoy. He is a child with Aspergers who is vulnerable and who is not coping and is deteriorating and not making progress. Unless he has read up about the clinical symptoms of depression, and has the ability to understand how to interpret that into his own behavior and thought processes, he would not know how to act or what to do, or not do, or how to behave. Basically it would be very hard for anyone to pull off such a 'sham' at all, nevermind over a considerable length of time, and to be consistent as well. And yet they think that he is capable of that? Whilst also being on the autistic spectrum? He must be some kind of genius!

Edited by Sally44

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I would really like my son to schieve his GCSEs if possible. However, simply attending class and attempting work does not get students through exams. If he cannot cope with GCSEs, despite his academic ability (and I think this is likely), I will see if school can offer an alternative, less stressful curriculum, maybe with vocational studies at a local college and BTEC or NOCN qualifications. If this is not possible,, I have some very good advice from this thread about a possible next step. However, what I do not want is a very vulnerable boy with mental health difficulties forced through a system that will fail him academically and break him psychologically.

 

Hi hsmum, I think you are entirely correct to not push your lad to achieve GCSEs if he is not capable at the moment, for whatever reason. He has his whole life ahead to achieve GCSEs and other qualifications if he needs or wants to. What we have learned in hindsight is exactly what you state in your last sentence, that the pressure of school and of trying to achieve good results is sometimes not worth the high price that is ultimately paid. My lad is now 20 and had an extremely stressful time at secondary school, even though he was attending part-time and had support from the on-site ASD unit. He did come away with some GCSEs, but the toll it took on him, I believe, is irreversible. He did not make a single friend the entire time he was at that school and the mere fact of him being there sapped so much of his self-esteem and confidence that he is now hardly able to function. Yes, he has his GCSEs but so what? What good can they do for him when he hasn't the skills and confidence to actually USE them.

 

I have little advice for you, other than you know your son and how he is suffering. If I had the time to do again, I would take him out of that school in a heartbeat and spend the time working on social skills and life skills and confidence and self-esteem building. We felt we were doing the right thing, we felt we had no choices really. We felt we had invested so much time and effort that we should just keep going for another term .... and another term .... and another year, until he had spent so much time there that it felt impossible to make a change. I now think back to those years with such regret and sorrow. He was so isolated and lonely and suffered so much and we made him go there every day and it seems to me like some kind of torture now. I'm so glad it's over for us, but we have to live with the results of the damage that those years inflicted on our son.

 

~ Mel ~

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  • My son made it through a sporadic year in High school. I was astounded that the Authorities thought I would continue to coerce my son to attend a school where he was unsupported and which was unwilling to make any adjustments. It took me 10 months to get CAMHS to see him and provided no service for a year. Now diagnosed with significant Anxiety and Depression. It makes me so angry that there was no provision for him. I told the LGO it was like providing a blind person with a pair of spectacles by LA saying he is on roll at a mainstream school.

He is now 15 and should be in year 10. He, like your son is academically able. They did not support his ASD by recognising his differences and putting strategies in place to enable him. He has had no educational input from LA for 2 years and he only was issued with a statement in August. I do not worry about GCSE's. I know he is intelligent. What he needs help with is social and communication skills and as mentioned above to build his self esteem and confidence which has been taken by an uncaring system.

The only advice I can give is listen to your son (It took me along time). Only by him saying what he wants and needs can change happen. I always felt that early intervention could have prevented a lot of angst.

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Hi,

 

Thank you for your really helpful advice. It seems like some of the behaviour is returning. He left his Biology class yesterday after two minutes to go to his 'quiet place'. No comment was made in his communication book about the school's response. However my son told me he felt like there was a storm in his head again.

he has a meeting with his CAMHS worker tomorrow, so I hope this will help.

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He has a diagnosis of moderate depression as well as AS

Moderate depression?! Looks more like severe depression and self harming. This is very serious and I advise you to get this seen by an independent psychologist NOW. I speculate that it's something school related and it's of utmost importance to get to the root of it.

 

Yet, apart from school, my son has given up nearly all his interests. He used to be very interested in meteorology, but he has torn up all the work he did on the subject and refuses to talk about it.

Abandoning hobbys and interests is a common sign of childhood depression that isn't always picked by educational psychologists. Sometimes it results from a lack of respect for them from one's peer group or family.

 

Another thing my son mentions frequently is his lack of friends and I think like many young people on the spectrum, he wants friends but does not know how to make them.

That could well be the reason. The problems might not be academic or a fear of failure but because of a lack of friends and unpopularity amongst the other students. Friendship is just as important as academics in school.

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