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Canopus

Jehovah's Witnesses and AS

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Is anybody here a Jehovah's Witness with AS themselves or a parent of a child with AS? Do you know any such people? I'm trying to find out how AS squares with the beliefs of Jehovah's Witnesses.

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I dont see how there is a link here between these two issues, a little confused.

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1. JW is a very small religion in terms of numbers. There are also no countries where JW comprise at least 5% of the population.

 

2. JW is a very tightly controlled religion with a strong hierarchy that demands a lot of time and effort from its members in participating in very specific activities - like knocking on doors.

 

3. JW discourages free thinking and intuition. Members are expected to accept the material put forward by the Watchtower movement without question and distrust anything that doesn't originate from the Watchtower movement.

 

4. JW discourage further and higher education meaning that it's difficult for their members to access certain careers like medicine, law, engineering, or scientific research.

 

These four factors inpact on their member's behaviour in ways that larger religions rarely do and I'm wondering how they affect people with AS born into JW families or parents of a child with AS who are JW.

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That is a very good questions with all their specific rules that are in my opinion silly rules what they actually do to look after and care for children with this condition in their communities how they would react.

If anybody has heard of a case like that I would be interested in hearing how they do look after and treat somebody on the Autistic a Spectrum.

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The question of JW and people with AS was raised many years ago at my local support group but nobody knew of any JW families that had people with AS.

 

I strongly hold the view that JW could only have been founded in the United States at the time it was founded in the late 19th century because it was the only country on earth with the right political, economic, and social climate that would allow such a religion to flourish. Even today JW is a very American centric religion where much of what the Watchtower authors write about is biased towards the US and American people. I'm also convinced that the JW would not have existed without the Protestant reformation in a world where the territories that are now the US would have been Catholic nations.

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I have done some brief research here and found some written reports from parents who are Jehovah witnesses and how children with autism are treated. How accurate this is I have no ideal but it's what I found.

There is no tolerance for children with autism they arre treated the same very strictly and if a child is small they must attend two hour services services sat in a car seat they are not allowed to sit on seats or on parents laps.

If a child talks or makes noises then the parents are talked to sternly and they must take the child outside and discipline them then return, for children who don't comply they must line up outside the book room where they are spanked and this is the same for autistic children they do not make any exceptions for autistic children.

They must also attend field work appearing on people's doorsteps how must that feel for an autistic child.

I've no idea how accurate these reports are but if true then there is serious child abuse concerns within this organisation.

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A former JW, who is now a Muslim, told me that JW are very poor at providing products and services for children. The range of children's publications by the Watchtower are extremely limited and despite requests from members nobody in authority is doing anything about it because the Watchtower prefers to focus on publications for adults. As the Watchtower holds a monopoly on publishing then no independent publishers are able to fill this gap in the market. Neither are there any specific services for children in kingdom halls and they are expected to sit through long and technical religious talks that are beyond their level of understanding at a young age because the JW stubbornly sticks with a one size to fit all approach regardless of age and ability.

 

In contrast, thousands of books and educational resources about Islam have been published for children of varying ages and abilities. Most mosques run kids clubs and religious education classes and events that totally eclipse anything that the JW have to offer. Instances of child abuse do occasionally happen in such settings but it is much rarer than that which occurs within the JW, although the media chooses to ignore JW child abuse so few people know what takes place unless they have inside knowledge.

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That makes sense to me the more isolated things are the more difficult it is to define what is actually happening within the JW movement.

I wonder why they don't have specific child related text and teachings like other religions try to do, my personal view is that there is very little positivity from this group and there appears from what ive heard so far nothing other than a control system that effects a person from expressing free will and choice.

This has a detrimental effect on parents and their children who are apart of the group and I also wonder about a parents maternal instinct when it conflicts with the JW. How do they justify allowing their children to go through this clearly when they must struggle with the services and indoctrination.

Some will say all religions are very similar but to me this does seem to be a problematic group, you have to allow the freedom for those who wish to believe and practice their faith but in doing so do you allow children to be indoctrinated in this way.

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Services and publications for younger members is an area of JW which is found to be severely wanting. Another criticism of JW is the policy where their members are prohibited from attended social events with people who are not JW. This applies to sports clubs, and presumably to AS support groups as well. I'm not aware of the JW having its own internal facilities for people with AS so it makes me wonder where do members obtain support and advice from. Do their senior officials deny that AS even exists?

 

The former JW told me that JW can be quite mean as they do not give money to charity apart from a few dealing with victims of natural disasters. Rarely do individual members of the JW give any money or material resources to poorer people because the JW priority is ministry and preaching. Despite the generally stingy nature of the JW and its members, the movement tends to be more successful at attracting poorer people as opposed to the middle classes.

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Services and publications for younger members is an area of JW which is found to be severely wanting. Another criticism of JW is the policy where their members are prohibited from attended social events with people who are not JW. This applies to sports clubs, and presumably to AS support groups as well. I'm not aware of the JW having its own internal facilities for people with AS so it makes me wonder where do members obtain support and advice from. Do their senior officials deny that AS even exists?

 

The former JW told me that JW can be quite mean as they do not give money to charity apart from a few dealing with victims of natural disasters. Rarely do individual members of the JW give any money or material resources to poorer people because the JW priority is ministry and preaching. Despite the generally stingy nature of the JW and its members, the movement tends to be more successful at attracting poorer people as opposed to the middle classes.

There is nothing that will surprise me about human nature and what some people believe.

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Perhaps, the more exclusive and authoritarian a religion becomes, the more we should wonder about whether it is actually a cult masquerading as a respectable religion. The size of the organisation shouldn't be relevant here. The JW's and their big 'rivals', the Mormons (LDS), both uniquely American products of their time, satisfy most of the criteria for cult status. The total-control element, which even extends to discouraging any outside influences (even books) is a classic hallmark of cults, and frankly gives me the creeps! I once visited the home of four home-educated JW children, and the only books in the house were all Watchtower publications (complete with their rather embarrassing illustrations!). The children lived and breathed their religion, knowing nothing else.

However, the US Christian Right in general tends to treat matters such as autism in ways similar to the JW's. They are very reluctant to have anything to do with psychiatry, secular counselling or therapy. They opt for faith-based 'healing' instead, and believe in such notions as possession by 'demons', speaking in tongues and the power of prayer. If the prayers and healing don't work, then they simply say that it was of God's will, part of his 'divine plan' - and we are not question his mysterious ways. Should things spiral out of control (often due to their very methods), and if the older child persists in 'ungodly' behaviour, they disown the child as a sinner. (Just as they 'disfellowship' their own children, if they 'marry out' - or worse still, 'live in sin'! This has happened among my relatives. Many children from these sects are home-educated, nearly always on religious grounds (often to isolate them from the 'sinfulness' and 'immorality' of the world), and this is surely even more likely if the children are on the spectrum. Many probably never get diagnosed. Political correctness, irrationally protects well-established religions such as the JW's, the Mormons, the Exclusive Brethren, fundamentalist Islam, Judaism, etc., even though they abuse their children - brainwashing, corporal punishment, genital mutilation, etc.

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This has to be considered child abuse in my opinion and should be treated as such by social services and the authorities.

My usual beliefs are that people have the right to practice what they believe in uninterrupted whatever it happens to be even if it seems weird or not particularly accepted by society in general.

Neither do I believe in the nanny state as they define it interfering in people's live and effectively taking away their freedom of choice and personal wills after all we are all entitled to be who we want or in some cases need to be.

However when you hear that children are being indoctrinatied in this way then if they are not to suffer and I think it is suffering in this case then some action needs to be taken. They have no childhood freedom to discover who they are learn and discover life by experience they are being controlled by an authoritarian group which does as you said resemble a cult rather than a religious belief.

I still think adults have the right to practice this as long as they are adults and make this choice through their own free will and they are not vulnerable and manipulated into doing so.

I don't think that taking children away from their parents is a particularly good thing to do in any circumstances but when faced with the other options of them being brainwashed and manipulated into what somebody wants them to be I reluctantly think there should be some form of intervention on the grounds of child cruelty and manipulation.

I wouldn't think it would be better to take the children from their families as that will be equally distressing and harmful but if the parents do not see or want to see the damage they are doing by inflicting this on a child then for the sanity of a child it may be the only option left open to them.

I don't make this statement lightly but on balance a child needs to be alowed to be a child and even though care is not particularly helpful in terms of belonging and a stable life I think abuse in a cult environment and punishment for not following it without question is wrong and tantamount to child abuse as in any other case when a child is inprisoned and basically a slave to an adult who has no concern for the child's growth and well being.

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i meet JWs practically every day as a postman and they knock on my door at least once a week or everytwo weeks because i live on a main road. They came from america out of thesame religious movement as there main rivals, the mormons and and seventh day adventists, you could perhaps add the sceintologists to them. I have direct experience with cults as i discussed before on this forum and i know they are one. The simple thing to note about JWs are that they program adults to think and act like children, where their religion is concerned no matter how silly and ridiculous the teachings are. If you ask them questions about what believers can and can not do, they simply say 'we are not allowed to comment on individuals' which is sign of a controlling cult.

you are not allowed to go inside another church or listen to anyoneelse preach, even if it is a wedding or funeral of a close relative.

They ask you to read their leaflets and come to their church but if you invite them to attend your local church first or read your leaflets they refuse to. I usally have NHS blood donation leaflets to hand to give to them, and point out before they usually walk off that many lives have been saved by blood transfusions and it is still rare for people to die or be harmed from contaminated blood. So those whose lives will be saved will be punished by god?

 

They are not allowed to take part in any form of political activity or public demonstrations, or union activity.I have pointed out to them that what if they worked in unsafe enviroments by profit chasing management looking to cut corners? they are not allowed to campaign against it?

If Dr King or Nelson Mandela were JWs and the majority of people living under apartheid or in the segregated south of the US, the said men would not be able to achieve what they did and those oppresive conditions would still be there today. JWs believe not to get involved with anything and wait till god returns. That is a cult

 

So their members just do as they are told and sound like robots when you speak to them at the door. They either walk away or just remain speachless when i point out the above. They dont have answers. But i am sure poeple with low self esteem would join them or even some aspies

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They ask you to read their leaflets and come to their church but if you invite them to attend your local church first or read your leaflets they refuse to.

The JW has a policy that its members do not read publications from other religions. Many JW kids are withdrawn from RE lessons at school as a result of this because their parents do not want them to know about other religions. The former JW told me that JW are very closed minded people. Her own parents refuse point blank to read any publications about Islam but then go spouting off baseless comments that appear to have originated from the hostile right wing mainstream media. They even refuse to accept that statistically the majority of terrorist attacks in Europe since 2000 have been committed by anarchist and separatist groups rather than by Muslims but they are rarely reported in the British media.

 

Even more interesting is how the JW own publications regularly come back to them and bite them in the butt. The JW is a religion of unfulfilled predictions and their members squirm when showed articles about them out of editions of Watchtower or Awake from many decades ago despite their magazines being dished out to the public in their millions. They often just hope for the best that old editions of Watchtower or Awake with such articles in have all been thrown away but there are people out there - including critics of the JW and members of other religions - who save and archive these magazines for future use. The JW have also taken much effort to dispose of their own publications from before the 1930s (when they were called Russellites) so they are no longer officially available to members but copies of them still exist from individuals who have saved them.

 

They are not allowed to take part in any form of political activity or public demonstrations, or union activity.I have pointed out to them that what if they worked in unsafe enviroments by profit chasing management looking to cut corners? they are not allowed to campaign against it?

If Dr King or Nelson Mandela were JWs and the majority of people living under apartheid or in the segregated south of the US, the said men would not be able to achieve what they did and those oppresive conditions would still be there today. JWs believe not to get involved with anything and wait till god returns. That is a cult.

The JW policy is that its members do not get involved in politics or campaigns, even if they are as innocuous as saving a local hospital from closure or preventing an industrial estate from being built in a nature conservation area. Their members are told to take everything on the chin.

 

It could be argued that given that there is no country where the JW are a majority combined with a refusal of JW to involve themselves in politics and campaigns, then the mere survival of the JW is at the mercy of sympathetic governments. Some countries including Singapore have outlawed the JW. In the JW yearbook statistics are provided for JW membership on a country by country basis plus another figure for the '30 Other Lands'.

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No knowledge about JW and ASD so all I will say is if they knock on my door, they better move their hand before I shut the door on them and trap their fingers in the process.

 

I don't have a problem with other people choosing their beliefs. I do have a problem with them forcing those beliefs onto me on my doorstep. But closing the door is their face isn't just JW. Anybody that tries 'preaching' at my door would recieve the same treatment, including politicians.

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Have you got a sign posted outside your front door telling people not to knock if they are anyone you have mentioned in your post.

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Yeah, we've got a sign on the outside of the door. Most of the time, it is respected but in the build up to the elections, it seems that people thought it was ok to ignore it.

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That's politicians isn't it and political activists. They only care about results and how they get them doesn't really matter about your wishes and nothing differs when they get there. It's all about them not us the ones they are supposed to be representing

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So their members just do as they are told and sound like robots when you speak to them at the door. They either walk away or just remain speachless when i point out the above. They dont have answers. But i am sure poeple with low self esteem would join them or even some aspies

 

I'm intrigued to know who exactly joins the JW nowadays? What are their most and least common levels of education; socioeconomic status; previous religious beliefs; and race and countries of origin? Do they have more success with people from a Christian background than from a non-Christian background? Are people who are poorer or in unskilled low paid jobs more likely to join up than people who are middle class or professionals? Are ethnics more attracted than white British people? Are people who are at a low point in their lives more or less likely to join than people who are dissastified with their existing religion or seeking spirituality but are otherwise happy with other aspects of their lives? Are people with certain hobbies and interests more or less likely to join?

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Exactly the kind of questions I would like to ask! If only such organisations conducted membership surveys, but due their very nature that would be considered heretical. I'm not sure how accurate this US survey is but the results don't surprise me: http://freeminds.org/psych/pew_survey.htm

 

The Witnesses had one of the lowest levels of education of all the religions surveyed. Nineteen percent had only a high school education or less, the lowest education level of all religions surveyed. This compares to eight percent of atheists and only three percent of all Jews. About half (42 percent) of the Jehovah's Witnesses had incomes below 30,000 and only nine percent had incomes above 100,000 dollars. Only those involved in historically black churches had incomes below the Witnesses. Of the Jews, a mere 14 percent had incomes below 30,000 but 46 percent had incomes above 100,000 dollars

Other clues come from the many stories of disaffected (or 'disfellowshipped') members. There are even several forums for ex-JW and ex-LDS members - very interesting posts too... I'd say that the members fall into two main groups: those whose personalities already mirror the ethos of the cult, and those who are vulnerable, insecure, lonely, or seeking guidance - whose minds are manipulated and moulded into adopting the views of the first group.

 

Some of the traits required would be: poor ability for independent or rational thinking; a willing blind obedience to authority figures; a narrow, blinkered worldview; a love of hierarchy and status; attracted to ritual; an unsophisticated absolutist moral sense; an undeveloped aesthetic sense; a punitive attitude to rule-breaking; a lack of empathy for outsiders; a fear of change; belief in a 'divine plan'; 'Armageddon syndrome'; an exclusivity/superiority complex; a deferment of gratification extending beyond death.

Crucial to all cults is the founder's personality, which is reflected in all those (carefully-chosen) people who inherit his leadership (nearly all are men). Its creation, propaganda and control methods are determined by the founder's and successors' personality traits. Such people are invariably authoritarian personalities attempting to compensate for their own deep feelings of insecurity and hatred by forming cults to attract those whom they can manipulate into joining, and to keep them under their compliant submission. Their secondary motive to use them to increase their wealth and status.

At least one thing we can be sure about is that the elders and the puppet-masters at the top are not short of money. :lol:

Edited by Mihaela

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Exactly the kind of questions I would like to ask! If only such organisations conducted membership surveys, but due their very nature that would be considered heretical. I'm not sure how accurate this US survey is but the results don't surprise me: http://freeminds.org/psych/pew_survey.htm

 

The Witnesses had one of the lowest levels of education of all the religions surveyed. Nineteen percent had only a high school education or less, the lowest education level of all religions surveyed. This compares to eight percent of atheists and only three percent of all Jews. About half (42 percent) of the Jehovah's Witnesses had incomes below 30,000 and only nine percent had incomes above 100,000 dollars. Only those involved in historically black churches had incomes below the Witnesses. Of the Jews, a mere 14 percent had incomes below 30,000 but 46 percent had incomes above 100,000 dollars

Take into account that the article is American so does not properly represent the situation in Britain. Only a high school education could be interpreted as 12 A* grade GCSEs. I'm still trying to get to the bottom of the level of education of JW. Some sources say that JW are overwhelmingly uneducated and not very bright, but other sources say that the majority of members born into the religion have mastered the primary school basics and have a reasonable to good level of secondary school education - so rarely struggle with reading, grammar, comprehension, and everyday maths - although few have gone on to FE or HE.

 

Comparisons with other religions in the US and Britain can also be misleading. For example, Hindus are a relatively recent arrival to the US and most are professionals or technically educated, whereas a sizeable fraction of Hindus in Britain are unskilled and uneducated people who work in menial jobs and retail. As for Hindus in India, there is a huge underclass.

 

Other clues come from the many stories of disaffected (or 'disfellowshipped') members. There are even several forums for ex-JW and ex-LDS members - very interesting posts too... I'd say that the members fall into two main groups: those whose personalities already mirror the ethos of the cult, and those who are vulnerable, insecure, lonely, or seeking guidance - whose minds are manipulated and moulded into adopting the views of the first group.

Be cautious with what you read on ex-JW forums because people might not be who they present themselves to be, or telling the truth. There are plenty of agent provocateurs and deceivers on these type of forums who post propaganda and misinformation that appears fine and dandy to the layman, but the trained eye and knowledgeable brain identifies that it is untrue or grossly exaggerated.

 

The best sources of information are people who were previously JW.

 

At least one thing we can be sure about is that the elders and the puppet-masters at the top are not short of money. :lol:

Very true. I read somewhere that the majority of rank and file JW in the US are in the poorest quartile, and a high proportion of them are black or Hispanic, but the senior officers are overwhelmingly wealthy people and WASP in origin. I'm not sure what the situation is in Britain but there certainly are some JW who have quite a bit of money in their bank accounts plus investments.

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The fact is that most religions or cults are not devoid of funds is due to the greed of people usually the ones at the top of the organisation.

Whatever the religion you will have the genuine people who believe and those that use it as a method of control and gathering wealth. The JW are not alone in this it's a fact of life more to do with human nature rather than any religious beliefs at least from those that hold the power within the groups.

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The fact is that most religions or cults are not devoid of funds is due to the greed of people usually the ones at the top of the organisation.

Whatever the religion you will have the genuine people who believe and those that use it as a method of control and gathering wealth. The JW are not alone in this it's a fact of life more to do with human nature rather than any religious beliefs at least from those that hold the power within the groups.

 

Fair comparisons between religions when it comes to funding can be tricky due to large differences in their organisational structures. The JW is a very centralised religion whereas other religions have more devolved or localised structures resulting in a possibility that very little money collected locally finds its way to the top.

 

The phenomenon is not unique to religions or cults. Look at the NAS for a start.

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I would agree that structures are different depending on the organisation concerned but I think the point I'm trying to convey is that of human nature.

Whether the financial wealth goes to the organisation leaders or those in the local community there will always be those that are genuine and believe in what their purpose is and those that will seek to gain personally either through wealth or power.

You make valid point but human nature being what it is it will be throughout all levels of religions and society generally.

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I agree with all the points you made Canopus. Seeking the truth in any controversial or actively hidden matter can be very difficult.
Livelife - I agree with you about human nature. I'd say that this darker side of human nature is something associated with neurotypical thinking. It's what makes the world such a scary and confusing place for us - at least that's how I see it.

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What the JW like to keep quiet about on the doorstep is that they use their own special Bible - The New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures - that no other sect or version of Christianity uses, so it's technically a different Bible from that found on the bookshelves of the residents of the houses they call at. They also hold a copyright on it, therefore preventing anyone else from using it as their own Bible.

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I agree with Livelife, and a point well made. Put your own house in order by whatever means are your choice, but there are much bigger and wider issues about so called 'Homo Sapiens' and their nature. I suspect that 'Homo Aspie' sees things very differently anyway, but we're still a version of human.

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There is a huge difference between those on the spectrum and those who are not. Everybody has to come to understand themselves and find a place that they can find peace in religion or some other means that they can relate to. Everybody is different and tolerating that is the only way anybody can be happy.

The problem is that it's not in human nature to be tolerable instinctively, I think from experience a lot of autistic people are more tolerant but not all.

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