ARE ALL FEMALE ASPIES TOM BOYS

[KarenM]

My dd is a total tomboy. She wont wear anything remotley girlie. Just wondering if it is an autism male brain thing. It Could well be total rubbish . has anyone got a feminine aspie daughter? Her nt sister is as girlie as anything. karen

[mossgrove]

Simon Baron-Cohen (One of the leading experts on autism) has a theory that autism is 'extreme maleness' , i.e. there systemising side of the brain is in overdrive but the emotional side does not function as well, so you are not the only one to think along those lines!

 

Simon

[pleasehelp]

Umm, well I'm on the Spectrum and about as tomboyish as ever a girl could have been. I didnt do dollies and pink-preferred to catch newts and climb trees every time lol On that note as an adolescent, the fact the punk scene was experiencing a revival was PERFECT for me cos I could be as different, strange and eccentric as I liked without so much as turning a hair amongst my mates cos in hindsight most of us were society 'misfits' of one sort or another anyways so was accepted more readily by miles and being girly just aint punk rock is it

[DaisyProudfoot]

Interesting - I'm not on the spectrum (although I do have some Aspie tendancies) and I have always been a Tom Boy. One of my sons is dx AS. Even now (aged 40) I'm still more boyish in my traits I don't think it's something we ever lose we just adjust to what society expects us to be.

 

Apparently when I was a kid I would have screaming fits whenever my mum tried to get me into a skirt and I still get on better with blokes than lasses because they're more straightforward to understand.

 

I got kicked out of the Girl Guides as a kid because I was too boyish (I'm a Scout leader now) and enjoyed climbing trees and riding my friend Mark's chopper bike, I liked to play cowboys and indians and wanted to be a police officer because I hate it when people break laws but I didn't make the height!

 

Daisy

 

[Guest flutter]

good Q

she not particuarly a tom boy, but does enjoy more male type things, 9 ari shows car shows)

will wear skirts but much prefers jeans.

she does like some 'girly' things but i wonder if it is a need to join in and be the same?

[karin]

hi all after reading all your e-mails it confirms what ive always know i must have had asd tendancies was always a tomboy never wore skirts always jeans,trousers liked to do boyish things my mum says thats why i had all boys because i had more male hormones than females love and adore footy and know the offside rule just as well 4 of mine are footy daft but not as much as their mum keep smilin luv karin xx thats me fighting with my brother when i was younger told you i was a tomboy xx

[yameretzu]

When I was younger I was a tomboy, in fact I refused to wear a skirt till about 12ish but then I loved all the gothic long dresses and corsets, I find them more femanine than the new fashions out today which I feel isn't as such.

 

I like skirts now though, however I have agreed with my boyfriend that I am more masculine, though he's a bit femanine so it doesn't really matter. He's the pretty one out of the two of us anyway.

[something_different]

i have always been a bit of a tomboy

 

hate getting 'dressed up' in skirts or anything, don't wear make up

 

apparantly when i was 2 all i wanted for christmas was a motorbike and a crash helmet so mum got me a wee pedal one, i think i wanted a 'real' one!

 

i did get to go on a real one from about the age of 3 tho 'off road one' along with my dad,

 

rode on my own at about 5 or 6

 

loved tree swings and mud

Edited August 10, 2005 by something_different

[TuX]

I have always refused to accept the term tomboy because it means those who are deemed to be in that group are lesser females than those who do all the steriotypically 'girly' things, I don't see things as being male or female predominantly orientated,I see the object or whatever it is and nothing else.

I do not comprehend why things have to have a dominating gender on them.

[Guest flutter]

tux

i think it is just habit in life that we do this,

and i work with kids and some how or other they gravitate to similar sterotypical activities

[KarenM]

I in no way mean any offense using the term tom boy its just an easy way to descibe a girl who will only spend time with boys dresses in boys clothes and refuses to wear anything considerd girlish like skirts or dresses. thank you all for your intersting answers , there does seem to be something in my origi nal post Karen

[Box-Of-Frogs]

Well Maisie is as girly as they come! She point blank refuses to wear anything but a skirt or a dress. In fact, she would spend every day in a tutu given the chance! She loves baby dolls and soft toys, and likes glittery things. She would spend hours in Claire's Accessories just looking and tounching. I wish she would have as much interest in shoes though! Maisie will not wear anything on her feet for love nor money!

[TuX]

tux

i think it is just habit in life that we do this,

and i work with kids and some how or other they gravitate to similar sterotypical activities

Is it because of parental influence or do babies know what genderised items to go for without influence?

 

 

 

 

 

I in no way mean any offense using the term tom boy its just an easy way to descibe a girl who will only spend time with boys dresses in boys clothes and refuses to wear anything considerd girlish like skirts or dresses. thank you all for your intersting answers , there does seem to be something in my origi nal post Karen

KarenM,sorry,I wasn't referring to your use of the word,I was thinking about the word from the experience I have had with it.

[Guest flutter]

Good Q tux

i dunno, but i do know that my son had dolls and dressing up and all sorts of bits and bobs like that so he wasnt brought up "steroytypically" and he has gone his own way and is stereotypically a teenage boy.

might do some research on this cos it is interesting

tc

Cx

 

http://www.studyworld.com/newsite/ReportEs...ation-32139.htm

 

and everything else points to tv shows and the like giving sterotypical ideas

right i off back to bed with cuppa and choccy biccy

Edited August 11, 2005 by flutter

[Lesley]

My AS son (4) plays with his NT sister's (5) dolls house more than she does, he loves wearing her pink fluffy slippers & I've caught him painting his toes with nail varnish.

Personally I think that he copies what she does excessively cos that's how he learns & she is his only role model

 

L

xxx

[Lucas]

I am a bit annoyed with Baron-Cohen and his male brain theory; he doesn't seem to have acknowledged all the evidence that exists which contradicts it(like many others in Autism research).

 

It relies on the assumption that Autistics are not emotionally intelligent or don't have the 'right' emotions. This is not proven fact; it's a myth started in America and pushed by Cure Autism Now(SBC recieves grants from and it puts him in a difficult relationship with the Autistic Self-Advocacy Movement).

 

There is also that stereotype to rely on about men in general not being emotionally intelligent. This is bull based on the assumption that women are the ideal model for emotional intelligence, despite the fact that the more emotional the person is regardless of gender, the more futile any attempt at reasoning with them is(which no matter how it is twisted cannot be considered 'smart' or 'intelligent').

 

The assumption may stem from the fact that Autistic children in general crave tactile stimulation in an atypical way to NT children, so girls may well play like boys or prefer boys clothes and then become quite boyish because the expectation is put to them in response.

[Lucas]

Sorry to use shock tactics, but the story of David Reimer should be a warning to anyone who pushes the idea that gender is purely a socially-defined construct:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer

 

A person can be male, female and even bi-gender. After reading into David Reimer and haemaphrodite cases, I do now believe a person should be allowed to choose their own gender and that the choice should not be limited to male and female, as uncomfortable as it may make others.

 

(Though I still believe that a person has a right to be informed of their partner's gender or previous gender *before* sex. I don't think it's possible for anyone to claim gender discrimination for being refused it)

[mossgrove]

I think Simon Baron-Cohen was referring in particular to the dificulties than many autistic people have in the areas of empathy, particularly realising what someone is thinking/feeling without having to sit and work out what someones feelings are.

 

I think it is true to say that for many autistic people empathising and understanding other poeples emotions/feelings is not an area of strength, which may be one reason why so many autistic people have difficulties in the areas of communication and socialisation.

 

It is certainly true to say that for many people on the spectrum the ability to 'systemise' is a massive strength (Temple Grandins work with cattle-handling systems being the most notorious example) , and abilities in this area often exceed those of NT people.

 

Studies have show repeatedly that men are beter at spatio-machanical tasks and women do better when emotions come into play. Why this difference is there is another debate, but there is plenty of evidence to support the fact that it is there. I don't think is unreasonable to consider whether or not autism can be better understood by thinking of it as extreme maleness. Simon Baron-Cohen himself isn't saying that this explains or defines autism, but I think it is an interesting addition to the debate.

 

 

Simon

Edited August 11, 2005 by mossgrove

[~Jonathan~]

I'm wondering if my Mum has AS, as she was a tomboy as a girl, playing with her brothers and their friends, football and the like. She never looks at me when I talk with her and we often used to argue about that. She cannot show intimacy preferring to buy me things. She and Dad used to sleep separately - twin beds. She doesn't like emotion of any kind and prefers me to leave the room if I'm going to cry. She's not an unkind person just aloof. Can AS be passed down though?

[baddad]

Fistly, the tomboy thing...

I remember one of Robert Winstons programmes which looked at boys and girls at play, and it does seems that each gender generally gravitates toward 'typical' toys; i.e. girls dollies/boys cowboy suits and guns... it's almost impossible to seperate the influence of stereotyping/role modelling completely, but there does seem to be a 'natural' selection process going on. With regard to ASD's and 'tomboyism', it's possibly that girls with asd care less about how they appear and more about how they feel comfortable, and though I only have VERY limited first hand experience of wearing women's clothing (i.e. a couple of role reversal tarts and vicars parties!), I'd hazard a guess that T'shirts and jeans are more comfortable than skirts/boob tubes/halternecks etc, and far more practical too. As adults, i have known girls with asd's (and some 'suspect' asd's) who do like 'girly' things, and some who don't...

Male brain thingy... Got to say I'm somewhat in agreement with Lucas on this one... the implication often seems to be that 'male brain/bad, female brain/good', and that is a huge oversimplification that really doesn't hold up on investigation. Truth is that BOTH have plusses and minusses, and both are equally unfathomable and 'insane' to the other. A great deal is made of the female brain's abilities in the areas of empathy and communication, but - to be honest - it's my observation that women can be far 'bitchier' (there goes the empathy, then!), and far more obtuse when the fancy takes them than most men could ever dream of! I think I might have quoted this before, but i rather liked the title of a GQ artcle from a couple of years ago:

Are women mad

Or do they do it on purpose?

 

Personally, I suspect it's both , bless 'em. And that's exactly why i find them so fascinating (Venus and mars? Cats and dogs? Think cobra and mongoose! The odds look like they're stacked one way, but the truth is very different...

On that note, i'll get me coat, and leave you ladies for a good 'baddad-bashing session'.

L&P, y'all

[Canopus]

How do you define tomboy? Do you mean popular boys activities such as Action Man and football, or do you mean taking an interest in things that are normally male dominated such as computers and physics?

[fairies72]

My daughter seems to be a bit of both.Loves anything girly , first to get the glitter and the pink,fluffy,sparkly anything,but then first to climb trees,fences,crawl round the floor and get dirty.Infact insists on such pretty girly outfits to wear then ..crawls round the floor, takes out any hair clips,shoes are off before they are barely on in the first place .

Lisa x

[Lesley]

Jonathan,

 

My mum is just like that!

 

I used to tell close friends that she was 'the most un-maternal person you could meet' (not in a nasty way, that's just the way she is) but the more I read about AS the more I understand...

 

We spent the whole Christmas one year arguing about why you should (me) or should'nt (my mother) tell a white lie to protect someones feelings.....

She also doesn't get jokes, is very black & white and was a tom boy as a child

 

L

xxx

[Box-Of-Frogs]

My daughter seems to be a bit of both.Loves anything girly , first to get the glitter and the pink,fluffy,sparkly anything,but then first to climb trees,fences,crawl round the floor and get dirty.Infact insists on such pretty girly outfits to wear then ..crawls round the floor, takes out any hair clips,shoes are off before they are barely on in the first place .

Lisa x

This is Maisie to a T!

[kerrybobs]

hiya,

 

I can totally identify with Fairys72, Robyn 10, is into girly things in a big way ie: dressing up, princesses and at the moment secretaries. Yet she is always filthy, climbs walls plays in the muck etc.

 

She will only where shoes when she has to but as soon as she gets home shoes and socks come off straight away.

 

Kerry

[~Jonathan~]

Hi Lesley,

 

Thanks for replying <'>

 

My Mum's the same. If say a black person commits a crime then all black people are criminals. Because of the Second World War, she believes that all Germans are plotting to take over the world. Because one gay person is promiscuous then they all are. There's no middle ground with her at all and we often argue over that. It must be such a fearful way to live, wondering all the time what people's motives are. I take people as I find them, if I like them I like them and if I don't I don't, it's got nothing to do with classificiations.

[Kazzen161]

T (AS) used to like dolls and prams (much to my mother-in-laws disgust!).

 

Having Twins who despite eating identical food for at least 18 months, have very different tastes, and who had very different personalities from birth, I think we delude ourselves over how much influence we have!

 

Karen

[lsw146]

My NT daughter has been at football club this week and my (okay as yet UN-DX) AS daughter has been dressing up as a fortune teller and desperatley missing her dance classes.

 

On the surface B seems 'girly' but as yet i don't think she identifies with more strongly with one gender or another she just feels like she is her. (if that makes sense). She has however found a fondess for certain boys which considering her difficulties seems an untypical thing to do?

[Lucas]

I am not actually understanding the status quo that women are 'better' with emotions. How do they work this out? It's easy to measure someone's spatio-mechanical abilities, but what tests did they conjour up for 'emotional intelligence'?

 

And as for the idea that it's Autistics that can't understand other people's emotions(empathising), why is this standard not affixed to the overwhelming NT population which cannot often do the same for Autistics?

[Guest flutter]

lucas

is there a possibiltiy that with some women ( girls dont shoot me please)

that hormones affect our method of controling our emotions? so we are percieved as being able to show more than men?

i am much less emotional since having no hormones( my lot luvs it lol)

[Lucas]

I've been thinking about what makes someone 'better' with emotions and I'm still confused. Does showing them *more* make them better? Does knowing when and how to show them do it?

 

On Question Time a few weeks ago Jane Fonda was on(and so was Peter Hitchens of who I am a big fan) and was asked a question about "Are men's heads divorced form their hearts?" and what followed was an utterly nonsensical tirade from Fonda replying in the affirmative which had Hitchens looking bored. Me too. I've come to conclude that what she meant was "Men rarely agree with me(even the liberal ones) and I need to explain in an incomprehensible way how they are wrong and I am right whilst avoiding any point which can be followed".

 

I did think back to an instance which did put it quite clear to me. Based on a partially-true story:

 

A husband and his wife were driving in the country when they hit a hare. The wife wanted the husband to stop so he did(she had feelings about the hare, he didn't). They both went to look at the hare which was still alive but in pain.

 

The husband thought they should leave the hair in case it recovers(he didn't want to stay of course) but the wife thought the hare was in so much pain it should be finished and it would be an awful death if it took a long time. The husband agreed with his wife but still thought the hair should be left anyway, his wife asked him to kill it with a rock. He told her he wouldn't object if she did it but he didn't want to, he still thought it should be left.

 

So the husband thinks there's a small chance the hare may recover but agrees there's a large chance it won't and will die painfully. The wife thinks the hare should be killed quickly to spare it the pain, but she wants the husband to do it and she won't do it herself. Both had a big arguement over it, believing the other to be inconsiderate of the other's feelings whilst neither accused the other of not caring about the hare(even though it's likely that in the real case the husband didn't, lets assume he didn't in this hypothetical one).

 

They were in an impossible position, they were two NTs who could not make a mutual decision. Here emotional intelligence is revealed is either fraudulent or NTs are not as good as they think they are(whatever the gender). In this case, only an Autistic can win and is shown to have the perfectly balanced emotional intelligence: What would the hare want? (This is completely based on the hypothetical absurdity that an Autistic was wandering in the country and decided to lend a hand)

 

The Autistic asks this question. The husband correctly elaborates that as the hare is an animal and all animal's have the strongest instinct for survival, it will want the small chance to live. But the wife says that because the hare is an animal it is too ignorant to understand how futile it is, it needs an enlightened human to make the decision for it.

 

They have a vote and the husband and Autistic win two to one to let the hare take it's chances. The husband was right for the wrong reasons, the wife was wrong for the right reasons(hare died after a few hours) and the Autistic was right all-round.

 

Conclusion: Autistic wins!!! (The hare still died, but wouldn't had it been an Autistic hare)

[karin]

hi lucas i think you have summed up this debate what a super way to end it meaning all of us a right in our own way keep smilin luv karin xx