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At first I thought NO WAY she should have been put away!

 

After reading it I think that she they were another family tragically let down by the system.

 

His mother looked after him for all those years with no support. The judge is probably right in saying that she will be punished enough by herself. Imagine the nightmares that she will have for the rest of her life. It doesn't bear thinking about.

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:o Sent a chill down my spine... :(

 

I was thinking - 'she should be hung!' before i read it. Now i just think how tragic, what an awful state to get into :(

 

And the guy from the council wants a good slap :angry:

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It's not a happy situation all round, but I certainly agree that it would serve absolutely no useful purpose to send her to prison, she has done something terrible under immense strain and it is difficult to imgaine that she will ever find happiness after this.

 

What does make me angry is the local authority taking the opportunity to congratulate themselves for doing everything thay could and blaming the mother for refusing help.

 

Simon

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I am pleased that one good thing has come out of this, on every news programme I have heard today they are constantly saying that this case highlights the lack of support for families with children with special needs. Even parents at the school when I collected my son mentioned this as they had seen/heard the news, noone thought she should have been sent to prison and most commented that it just proves how pathetic the systems are that are in place to support these families. It was commented that she requested help from Social Services and they did not help.

Edited by lil_me

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Interestingly, there was a report on the TV this morning which suggested that because of the nanny state and child laws etc, parents in difficulty with their children are very reluctant to seek any help, in fear of having children taken off them by social workers, or being branded bad parents, because they are expected to be able to cope. Parents are born some say, for others it has to be learnt the hard way, and the rest get by best they can. Our children don't come with an instruction book, and the government sponsored nanny system is hardly a role model is it ? 650 children in Parliament who can't string one decent law together among themselves !

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Heard the social services claimimg she had had all the help available offered to her..........the guy said she refused respite care because her son,s behaviour would be so much more worse when he got back.None of us know what she coped with, an adult male who probably weighed a lot more than her in an angry state.Her neighbours and members of the village spoke of her devotion to her son and that she was a very private lady.My granfather has alzhiemers and recently had to go into care.He had begun to get very violent and aggressive towards my gran who is 90 and very frail.Thankfully social services have been brill, it is only now my gran is able to tell of the stress and anxiety she suffered, loving and almost hating at the same time.The true extent of my grandads problems are only now becoming apparent, my gran was scared to tell us her family what was happening.We never knew, :( , carers cope with so much, alot they keep to themselves, she will probably serve a life sentence without ever setting foot in jail.

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what a tragic and sad story.I'm not even going to comment on this one.I don't think alot of these people that are passing comment have any idea what she went through each day.What a sad state of affairs.She has punished herself enough.She needs support now.

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i agree with suze when she says the mum will serve a life sentence without setting a foot in prison,how very sad

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I cannot bring myself to condemn this lady. We have a Mum in our local group who has a son with Downs and Autism. She feels that she never belongs with the Downs support group because her son?s autism affects him much more than his Downs. Our Mum cannot get any respite, as no one will have her son. Now what does that tell you? This lad also injures himself by head bashing. After several hospital stays because of him fracturing his skull, because of his repeated head bashing, he was fitted with a special helmet. This at least stopped him from doing any serious damage to his head. However a Clinical Psychologist decided that this was an infringement of his human rights and that he has the right to bang his head if he wishes to do so. Yes unbelievable isn?t it? His old school asked Mum what she wanted and Mum said that she wanted her son to wear his helmet. This child has a mental age of 6 months, although in reality he is 11 years old. He has just changed schools and even though Mum had the conversation with the school about the helmet day on day two at his new school they decided to remove the helmet. They did this at 9.15am. By 9.30am Mum had been rang for and her son was in A&E with a fractured skull and a broken nose. I can quite understand the desperation this Mum was feeling.

 

Looking after a child with any disability is immeasurably removed from looking after an adult with a disability. I am already beginning to realise this. Only last night I was shedding tears at what the future is going to bring for my sons ? all three of them - as my eldest appears to have taken on the role of main aid and personal mentor to David. He tells me that it is his choice but it left me crying my eyes out.

 

The care that our children are given and the help that we parents do not receive stinks. I feel greatly for this Mum and can almost understand why she did what she did.

 

Carole

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not sure how I would feel. I have suffered depression and contemplated the worst but killingmy children? I dont understand the verdict and im a lawyer! Dont think it fits but then Im getting anti current system increasingly.

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I can easily bring myself to condemn this lady. She has recieved far more sympathy and leniency than any Autistic person has in court for lesser crimes. I never remember anyone giving Paul Smith the benefit of the doubt.

 

Autistics under sustained pressure and confusion makes a mistake = Bring back the death penalty!

 

Heroic mother under sustained pressure and confusion plans and commits the murder of Autistic son(I am not believing a manslaughter case at all here) = Put her on a high pedastal and proclaim that no one can criticise!

 

I don't feel NTs are ever going to meet halfway.

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I don't think it's something I could ever even think of doing, but I don't know how she felt etc It would be harsh for me to say I felt she had no right to take the life of her son but as I have said I don't know their story well enough to comment.

 

They said on the most recent news story she declined the SS help with a respite place as her son would come home extremely stressed etc. Why couldn't a differnt facility be offered ?

Edited by lil_me

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I'd like to think I would never get to the stage of committing this kind of extreme act, but I have had a taste of what it is like to care full time, with minimal support, for an autistic child in great distress and exhibiting challenging behaviour constantly. I only had to do it for a few months and I was in despair- I can only guess at my state of mind if I had had to do it for years and years with no respite and no end in sight. :(

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Lucas, I can see your point and I feel that the Paul Smiths story is very tragic and personally believe that maybe more happened there than has been told, unfortunately Paul Smith had already been allegedly responsible for similar attacks/incidents on young girls and as no-one intervened at an earlier stage to help this young man and family after the first incident he has become guilty by association (and the DNA found at the scene). I don't think that for one minute anyone here would want Paul Smith to be villafied (SP?) he is a victim as much as the mother of the downs/autist both had been let down the system, she will have to live with her actions for the rest of her life. There is not much more the penal system could do to her that she won't already be doing to herself. I am also sure that Paul Smith's case has not been put to bed completely, it is not the last we will be hearing about this ..

 

HHxx

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I can almost understand the mother doing this, the fact she then tried to take her own life shows she was desperate. She was probably terrified as to what would happen to her son when she died so decided they both would. I have a large family and my sons future is assured, he will be looked after by a brother or sister in a purpose built family home that can accomodate us, him, and one of my children plus their spouse and children, but I still worry. When we die another child plus family could move in to help as well.

 

I don't feel sorry that my children have to do this as it's what family do for each other, also they are secure in the knowledge that if anything ever hapened to them or theirs they would be looked after as well, no questions asked. I have a feeling the role of main carer will be taken on by my now 16 year old, she says it will be for the best, it's what she wants to happen as she knows her brother best given there's only 18 months between them.

 

I think we've moved a long way away from being a caring society to

one that is in general too hung up on people 'having their own life to lead' . What could be better than helping a loved one to lead a life?

Edited by alibaly

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Hector,

 

Yes, the papers made a big deal about Paul Smith's alleged 'history of violence', but at least some had the decency to report the other side of the story in those cases. Most papers printed the story about how he got a girl into the boot of a car at gunpoint, drove her to the middle of nowhere and dumped her, how horrible he must be. Those that bothered to find out what really happened discovered this girl and Paul were at a part, she had her drink spiked and was coming in and out of consciousness. Paul panicked, knowing he had to get her away from the party as quickly as possible, on the way out though she woke and freaked on him. He was confused and scared, not knowing what to do he took an airpistol from the car and pointed it at her so she would stop hitting him. She had to go in the boot because she would have been dangerous to drive with if she were in a seat.

 

All the other 'history of violence' stories are similiar misconceptions. Smith is a typical Aspie, we all have by the definition applied in these cases a 'history of violence', even me. I was bullied heavily in school, I fought back, I now have a 'history of violence'.

 

Most people who have ever physically assaulted me were girls younger than me, just this fact alone means anything I do to stop them means it will be recounted in an entirely different slant that will make me appear like some kind of monster.

 

As for that Boll**ks DNA evidence; it was found on a can of Guiness in Rosie-May's room under her bed. Earlier in the night she had stolen a can of Guiness from Paul as she and some friends just couldn't help but tease(and her parents actually had the gall afterwards to say they should have had some 'warning' about Paul Smith. Everyone knew his diagnosis, that is exactly why Rosie-May and her friends were teasing him), at no point in the trial was the reasonable assumption made that this was the can of Guiness that Rosie-May stole and Paul couldn't find. Of course it would have his DNA, it was HIS can and of course it was in HER room, the court heard she stole it. They still assumed that this placed Paul in the room at some point.

 

And as for the murderous mother; if she was really punishing herself she would have pleaded guilty to the murder charge, not manslaughter under diminished responsibility. Her thoughts now, in court and when she killed her son were purely for herself. I'm now scared that I can be killed because I'm Autistic and whoever does it will walk away with fake tears shielding them from punishment.

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Lucas, I do agree with you about Paul Smith, and like I said, I really don't think this is the last we will here of this, personally I don't think that he did it, I think more went on that anyone wants to say and it was easier to blame Paul. My point about the can and the other incidents is exactly that he was convicted by association, therefore by ignorance and an easy outcome. Girls have usually been the ones to victimise T as well, only recently we have had a problem with a local girl slaping T and calling him a loud mouthed freak, T was distraught and wouldnt play outside for a week, the same girl also has a crush on T's older brov and had recently been calling at the house incessantly when I was at work, this drove T to distraction and he then started chucking water at her and her friends from on upstairs window when they wouldn't go away or stop ringing the door bell. I do have total empathy for you and for Paul, I do not think either that what the mum of the downs/autist did was right either, but for her to have been convicted with murder she would've had to have premeditated the crime, hers was a 'reaction' not a final solution, I do think it was diminished responsibility, I am not sure about the final sentence but I do know that she will have to live with her conscience and everyone who knows her will also be passing judgement on her as well.

 

I suppose I'm saying that I can relate to both situations, neither are right and something is inherantly wrong with the system. But Paul Smith's story isn't over yet, lets keep trying to keep it in the spotlight so as he doesn't become another forgotten statistic.

 

HHxx

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I may be wrong, but I thought she gave him tranquilisers and then suffocated him with a plastic bag :(

 

Aren't these actions premediated?

 

I think in our society in general the lives of all vulnerable people seem to have little value, starting with children, through people with special needs, to the elderly :(

 

I have read depressing statistics on how many children are killed each year, and I wonder what the statistics are for the other two groups?

 

It worries me that none of the reporting of this case has expressed any sympathy for her son...he seems to be portrayed as this dreadful burden, rather than a person with every right to expect to live safely. Almost as if he was 'subhuman' :(

 

I realise I'm in the minority on this one...

 

Bid :(

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SOM - that's what I thought as well.

 

Bid, I understand and agree with you, to me it all seems to be about the mum but you know, no matter how hard it is on us at times , its always harder for our children. We've had a bad day, well they've had a worse one.

 

Still, I don't think anyone can judge her till they've walked for a day wearing her shoes.

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It wasn't my intention to stir this up, and I don't mean to, I agree with you bid that there is little protection for the most vulnerable people in our society, this woman had earlier that weekend called for an emergency meeting with her GP when her son had been self harming (punching himself in his eye more than 20 times) the GP prescribed her the tranquilizers and not knowing what else to do left it at that. She had been a carer for her son for 30 years, the protection should've been there when she called for help, this young man would still be alive and this woman wouldn't now have to live with herself and her action (which I do not condone). Not long after this she has lost her husband (of natural causes), now she is an elderly woman alone with the knowledge of her actions, I don't think she has an easy soul or ever will have. I don't want to create a debate, its not for me to judge, there are no winners in this situation.

 

HHxx

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she obviously struggled for a long time without any help. I know an old lady near to us a few years ago who had a downs son, he would pull her away from anyone she tried to talk to and shout at her to buy him sweets.

He was nothing short of a bully she was a frail lady of 70 and he was a big man of 40.

 

who knows what she had to put up with. drs and social workers are willing to hellp when yr kids are small but noone wants to help an adult.

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this is such a TRAGEDY this lady is local to my area, and respite is EXTREMLY hard to come by. to have to cope with her son practically alone for 36 years just imagine your childs worst day ever and having to live with that ALONE for 36 years with no break? the emotional state this lady must have been in is unimaginable. I have no doubt she loved her son as she didnt want him to be aware, i feel this is a HUGE failure and highlights the lack of respite care, after all who is to say this wouldnt of happened if she was given a break from time to time.

Social services are quick to say she may have been asked but this question is always followed by the statement "however the waiting list is very vast for respite" and how would they place a child/man with such violent tendencies?

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To be honest, I am more angry at the media and those who defend her by demonising her son than I am with her personally. Bid is correct.

 

But I do not accept the case that she used tranquilisers so that he wouldn't suffer. It was more likely that he himself would have strongly disagreed with being murdered(like many of us do) and fought it. It's unbelievable how some articles and commentators have tried to portray it as absurd, the idea that he wouldn't have wanted to die; "If *I* was in that kind of state, *I* wouldn't want to live" is the mantra of pro-euthenasia pillocks, the vast majority of them are not permenately disabled or vulnerable.

 

The trainquilisers were used to deny him the right to express his opinion on the matter.

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No why's or wherefores...

 

I don't think the mother will ever be free of what she's done.

I don't think for one moment that she (apparently premeditated or not) was 'responsible' for her actions (grounds of diminished responsibilty...)

I don't think her son deserves the kind of negative judgements that are being made against him.

 

I think terrible things happen because people look the other way.

i think society is too quick to judge those who have been pushed beyond their limits.

I think sometimes love for your child can pull you in so many directions and can be so strong, and so painful, that you stay in situations for far longer than you should because your fear of the alternatives is greater than your fear of the situation you're in.

 

BD

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One question I often ask parents of Autistic children is "Would you rather have your child Neurotypical, or remain Autistic at the highest functioning peak?" and the answer is mostly "Neurotypical". I then find it hard to swallow any claim that they love their child after that.

 

Hypothetical queries are useful because they reveal values. It seems more and more people don't even know what values are, I can tell when a person has little values when I ask them what values are and they reply "things you believe in". Values are not what you believe, that would make them unchallengable assumptions impervious to reason and society would stagnate and never change(which is what happens of course when most people think values are what a person believes in).

 

Values are the reason WHY people believe something, not the belief itself. A value is a philosophical premise, an assumption that is only an assumption because there is no way to prove otherwise. I am alive and I am a sentient, self-aware being, but I can not prove this to another person, they could just as easily assume I am a mechanical thing giving relevent responses with each piece of stimuli. But it is because of a value that others(or at least they should) give me the benefit of the doubt.

 

Love is a value. Love is an idea that cannot be defined, set aside from attraction or infatuation in any logical way. One question though that can at least help me determine wether this mother loved her son would be "Do you want him back?". If she believes he's gone to a better place so no, I wouldn't believe it for a second. I wouldn't believe she loved him unless the answer was only 'Yes'.

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One question I often ask parents of Autistic children is "Would you rather have your child Neurotypical, or remain Autistic at the highest functioning peak?" and the answer is mostly "Neurotypical". I then find it hard to swallow any claim that they love their child after that.

I'm not sure how I would answer this Lucas. I know I love my child, but I think I am split down the middle on this one.

 

I would answer "Autistic" because if she wasn't autistic she would not be herself - she would be someone completely different and that would be unthinkable because I love her as herself.

 

I would answer "Neurotypical" because I know that one day I won't be there to support her and she is going to have to somehow carve out a niche in a neurotypical world which is not going to treat her with kindness, respect and understanding. I do not want to think of her being hurt and I would like her to have as happy and easy a life as possible, precisely because I love her.

 

Ask me on different days and in different circumstances, and my answer might vary - but my love and commitment to my child never will.

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One question I often ask parents of Autistic children is "Would you rather have your child Neurotypical, or remain Autistic at the highest functioning peak?" and the answer is mostly "Neurotypical". I then find it hard to swallow any claim that they love their child after that.

Lucas

 

I understand where you are coming from, but you seem to be making no allowances whatsoever for what is the fundamental reason that this happened.

 

She did not simply wake up when day and think, "I don't love my son any more, I think I'll do him in" which is what you seem to be implying.

 

Most of us on this forum accept that you have insights into the autistic world that we cannot share. Conversely you have never been the parent of an Autistic child, hence I think you do not fully understand how overwhelming it can be,it I may simplify your argument a little, the core of it seems to be Autism is a perfectly valid way of being so whay can't you just love and accept?

 

As you have correctly observed in the past , mainstream society is not geared to the needs of Autistics. Most Autistics need some degree of assistance, or accommodation, or education or support to cope in an NT-based society to a greater degree than an NT child does.

 

The amount of support varies with the individual, and I cannot simply gloss over the fact that for some Autistic people it can be hugely challenging to provide that support. I believe I can say this without passing judgement about whether that person is 'good' or 'bad' or is loved by those around them.

 

This support does not simply happen. The core responsibility for providing this support, or ensuring this support is made available, falls primarily on parents, in practice (with honourable exceptions) it is mostly mothers who assume the core responsibility.

 

I do not feel that my own children are exceptionally challenging, but parenting our two Autistic children is far more challenging and time-consuming than for our NT children. I find it absolutely overwhelming at times.Many fellow parents here are often overwhelmed. In our case we get a lot of support from the system, and the good time outweigh the bad.

 

What I belive hapened here was the mother had been overwhelmed for many years. Support mechanisms often fade away as the autistic person gets older. Day centre places can be withdrawn for perceived bad behaviour, unsuitable provision can be offered and rejected, then further help not offered because the mother 'declined assistance'. By the time the incident happened she was getting no regular support at all.

 

She was 67 years old and feeling that she could no longer cope with meeting her sons needs. If she didn't care at all I feel she may well have rung social services and effectively walked away saying she could no longer care for her son. I think the reason that she didn' t was because she honestly believed that nobody but her could provide what her son needed and that she could no longer provide that care.

 

At the bottom of her pit of despair, she probably felt that if she could not be there for him then he would be better off dead. Consequently she decided to end her sons life and then take her own. I can accept that this was an appalling misjudgement, but I cannot accept that this was the callous act of a mother who wanted rid of a son she no longer loved.

 

I think this an appalling indictment of the system as it stands today. It seems certain that the local authority offered some help that was declined, I think it is reasonable to assume that the help that was declined was inappropriate. It also clear that the Local Authority feel that because this help was declined they did not need to offer any further help and they were in no way responsible for what happened. The fact that this is the conclusion they reached is utterly chilling.

 

One of the remarkable features of this case is that it is such an isolated event. There are many, many parents out there now who have been left to cope on their in hugely challenging circumstances on their own as adult provision for Autistics

scarcely exists in many areas.

 

I will say it again, just because someone needs a lot of help and support on a daily basis it does not mean they are not loved or thay are not fully deserving of that support. But it is not an ant-autistic remark to say that it can be hugley challenging to provde that support without external assistance 24/7, 365 days a year for years on end.

 

Many parent of Autistic children have legitimate and well founded fears about what will happen to their children when they are not there any more. The find it hard to believe that a system that has ignored their needs for so long will suddenly be there for their children. I do not condone in any way what this woman has done, but in heart of hearts I do not feel putting her in prison for a life sentence, which is what you were suggesting earlier, is the answer either.

 

To go back to your original question, I think that she would want her son back getting the support he needs, but she was past the point where she believed that was possible.

 

 

Simon

Edited by mossgrove

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Well said Simon and let's not forget that this adult had autism and Downs and that does make a difference with how much this Mum was coping with on a daily basis- I know.

 

Carole

Edited by carole

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Hi :(

 

The all story is just soo sad the mother is 67 and suffering from depression she probably wanted to kill herself but couldn't leave her very vulnerable son behind :tearful: knowing that he would not bear to stay with any carer. I am often worried about what would happen to my son if I die but in an healthy mind would never resort to kill anybody what would I do however if I was to become depress or mentally ill, I cannot know the answer to this question, as when your mind is ill everything becomes distorted. :hypno:

Just keep going and trust you destiny I repeat to myself hope I will manage this, for the rest of my life.

Thanks Simon for your good answer.

Lucas compassion should be everywhere toward everybody who is suffering wether they are NT or autistic. :)

 

Malika.

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Simon,

 

this has been a very difficult subject and I think you have written a very honest, fair and balanced reply.

 

I would have taken about 3 weeks to write what you have.

 

At the end of the day all we can feel is compassion.

 

Elainex

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