Autism the reasons: Genetic MMR/ mercury

[Lucas]

There are two Autistic diagnoses; Autism and Asperger's Syndrome. There are no such diagnoses as high or low functioning Autism, they are figures of speech used to describe the supposed Autistic spectrum.

 

When they use the term "Classic Autism" or "Kanner Autism", they mean low functioning but they are just being politically correct. They don't accept that you can have classic or Kanner Autism and be very able. If they have said that he is "on the spectrum", then they are saying he is Autistic, they just don't want to sound like they are stigmatising. The fact is that of they didn't indulge in stigmatising Autism to begin with, Autism wouldn't be stigmatising.

 

They will likely give a diagnosis of Asperger's Syndrome or the non-existent HFA. My diagnosis is Asperger's Syndrome but I wasn't speaking until I was six and AS requires there to be no clinically significant speech delay, but even if it was a correct DX I am still Autistic.

 

One re-occurring criticism of the diagnostic criteria for AS and Autism is that you can actually be Autistic and not qualify for either, they are only meant to be guidelines anyway.

[reuby2]

Cheers ears !!!

[tinminer]

AS someone with AS (+ son as well), might I add my own contorversial theory.

 

My own belief is that autism is part of evolution.

 

Our brains are evolving, so that the human race can go on to the next level. Obviously, we are in the very early stages, and it is diverging in several ways.

 

HOWEVER, having a narrow field of interest and not being distracted by inconsequentials(Social life, clothes, celebs, gossip, all the rubbish - if you have AS you'll know what I mean )means you have more time to discover the next theory of relativity, the next insightful composition/painting/novel, cure for cancer, etc)

 

I told you it is ONLY a theory, and has absolutely no scientific proof whatsoever, but it is my thought........

 

I don't think there ever will be a 'cure' for AS/autism, simply because it is NOT a disease - it is an integral part of a person, just like thay may have blue eyes, long legs. It cannot be changed. It just IS.

[tinminer]

Acceptance of my son's condition has been part of my journey. After a period of contemplating my own navel, I started to think about why the numbers of those diagnosed with autism are going up. Yes, greater awareness has a part, and yes there are a fair few undiagnosed Aspie adults out there, but 20 years ago the prevalence was nowhere near the MRC's 1 in 166, or the DFES's 1 in 100. After extensive reading I concluded that there has to be an environmental element. I appreciate it will be a long time until we know, and even longer until we get someone to admit it. The tobacco industry is a strong parrallel.

This is what made me think about the evolution angle.

 

Why is autism more prevalent in silicon valley, California?

Why is autism more prevalent in children whose parents are in ABC1 income/social status/education brackets?

Why is there no 'cure' or ' apparent cause'?

Why is it increasing?

 

We know so little at present, but by sharing the knowledge we do know helps us to understand.

 

I don't buy the tobacco angle at all - none of my parents or grand-parents nor any of my wife's direct relatives smoke. I'm not sure at all about a direct environmental link, but there may be an indirect one.

Edited November 15, 2005 by tinminer

[smallworld]

Hi and welcome Tinminer,

You have the same opinion as my other half, he thinks asd is the next evolutionary step to meet the demands of an increasingly technological/information based society.

I think the ability to block things out and concentrate will become more necessary in a society where we are bombarded with information, much of it useless !!

wac

[Lucas]

A note on evolution:

 

That graph showing an Ape at one end and a naked Modern(?) Civilised(?) Man(?) at the end of a series of stages can mislead people about evolution. Evolution doesn't work in steps, hence there can be no model or ideal for previous or next 'steps' in evolution. Evolution does not have an ideal goal or end; it's just the endless dance of specimen changing with the enviroment. But in mankind's case, man is changing the enviroment faster than he is physically adapting to it and making up for it by adapting in the facluties that allow him to understand and manipulate the enviroment to begin with, hence Autistics.

 

Autistics are known to have common Autistic strengths that non-Autistics do not have and they cannot be Autistic without these strengths. The term 'strengths' in this regard must not be confused with skills, like Savant skills; strengths are inherent abilities that determine the competence a person will show when learning and performing a skill. An Autistic is generally able to understand very simple things, this wouldn't be remarkable if it weren't for the fact that non-Autistics often have trouble understanding very simple things, Autistics tend to do so with great ease. So an Autistic is much better equipped to learn about an enviroment and manipulate it.

 

Where I do disagree is that Autism is increasing because the enviroment has become more desirable; quite the opposite. Today society demands flexibility, multi-tasking, co-operative skills and things that Autistics are generally regarded as not being very good at. There has always been a large number of Autistics, it's just that because the enviroment is becoming increasingly inappropriate, the problems are being magnified where as before an Autistic could find their place and stay there.

 

But don't attribute values to evolution, it doesn't have an ideal that it's working towards.

[Malika]

Hi Waccoe and all

 

Well personally I think evolutionism it is just a theory which has never been proven as no intermediary specie between human been and primate have ever been found, at some stage they put together a skull of some kind of intermediary specie but eventually with more modern test recognised it was fabricated with part of skull of a primate and another from an human, DNA test revealed that they were not from the same sources. It is just use conveniently by the modern world to decrease the influence of religion mainly because for centuries Christianity was against any scientific development considered a heresy, and this created the feeling that modern development could not be achieve in religious society.

 

We have plenty of gene mutation one is fragile X an other is hemochromatosis but no mutation so far has never been found to give a better specie than the original one usually most mutation are creating havoc the worse well known example being mutations following Chernobyl.

 

The theory about silicon valley is that most people leaving there have a different kind of brain which is arguable.

 

So far I am not sure about the increase in DX as 20/25 years ago only Kanner syndrome was DX ( for non verbal autistic) most of verbal autistic were not DX

All what we know about autism is very knew, and because of the pressure from modern society to be polyvalent and super communicator, AS ASD people who have difficulties, switching from one subject of attention to another, and to be always at top performance in communicating are now emerging as autistic while may be many years back they would just have been consider eccentric or slightly retarded for sure many of them were qualified naughty, especially when they could not perform at school. I feel much divided on this subject because there are no data available to be use as references.

 

Some specialists argue that the constant use of computer now is creating a mixed up with our neurones because of the screen light and flickering I have not investigated that road so far but I will. But this would not explain why there were autistic 100 years back.

 

As for the efficiency highly intelligent people can go through a 300 pages book in an hour and retrieve all the useful and accurate information which is not the same than remembering everything without being able to prioritise what is important what is not and this is a field many autistic have a problem with. Except if they are specialised in the subject and can refer to their internal data base to determine what is most relevant.

 

Most of autistic are highly visual thinker which make them superior in the use of computers, it is not the use of computer which make them mutate but at the contrary allow them to flourish, mainly since the software invention from Bill Gate who happen to have Asperger..

Not to forget that the obligation to be educated in same peer group has increased the feeling of isolation for autistic children who are often more able to relate to older or younger children.

I remember when my parents were teaching in small villages they would have for example reception year 1, 2 ,3 in one class and year 4, 5, 6, and a section for older people up to 14 in another class.

 

My best guess in the matter is that there is mainly an immune system influence whether because of an autoimmune aggression or a lack of immunity leading the way to some form of viral infection intra-utero or on the baby which would explain the impression than in some cases the MMR is at fault, of course it is all speculation and we may never come to know the real cause of autism in our life time.

 

Another interesting point would be to compare data with other country that are not so dependant on technology and may not even have obligatory schooling as a policy. I have the feeling that the incidence of autism there, is not so much of an issue as in society were communication and technology are less important autistic children would probably be considered difficult or odd and taught a trade in accordance with their possibilities, only non verbal autistic would be then dx.

 

Please I hope that my post will be considered as it should be just a simple input toward the subject, my intention is not to offend anyone or to make any kind of affirmation beyond what is already known.

 

All of you take care. <'>

 

Malika.

[Guest hallyscomet]

Hi Lucas,

Sorry I have been a bit busy, finally here is my response to your question

 

Hallyscomet, how long has your son been taking such a huge amount of meds? I'm interested because there is a slight chance the meds themselves may be the cause of the problem. Just to explain: If I took medication for an ailment but one or more of the side-effects of the medication produced symptoms similiar to the ailment that was treated, it could give the illusion that the ailment has not gone away.

 

I know this can happen because I was on Roacutane ance treatment in my teens and one of the side-effects(apart from suicidal depression) was that I perspired more, thus producing more spots and boils. What the drug does is cause the glands that produce sweat to shrink in size, but it can sometimes make them more actice aswell. It wasn't until coming off the stuff that my skin began to clear up and I'm now left with a lot of very ugly looking scars covering my back and chest, they're not the 'cool' kind of scars either but disfiguring ones. The NHS offered treatment for them but I turned it down after a few sessions of having injections to reduce them became too painful.

 

What may be happening with your son's meds is that he is now dependent on them just to stay composed, but the same factors which caused the original problems that made them neccessary could now be gone as he is older. If he doesn't have time to be accustomed to not being under their influence, he of course will always need them.

 

I don't believe the sections of the media that say ADHD or ADD don't exist, but they do raise interesting questions and there is a ethical problem with diagnosing medication for something when you don't know what causes it. Conventional medicine prescribes treatments that deal with symptoms rather than causes for a reason: it is an admission of what people do not yet know. If a person has an illness, a doctor will medicate to reduce the symptoms that affect the person's comfort and functioning, but leave actually fixing the problem to the body itself, which is wise.

 

But they don't have the same reasoning for ADHD because it doesn't just go away, the body doesn't just fix it, so it is unethical to purely medicate the symptoms away because the symptoms are often the only clue to a specific cause if a case is exceptional.

 

If your son is allergic to something, has an intolerence, is electro-sensitive(electro-sensitivity is a recognised condition in many European countries and is gradually being accepted elsewhere and could get some study done into it at last), or has an emotional problem with an inter-personal cause, you won't know about it because the clues are being buried.

 

Bare in mind that med companies and their friends in government in any country with no socialised medicine, it is in their interests that medication is in demand and inevitably if there is every any drug hailed as an effective treatment for a poorly-understood condition, the rate of diagnosis for that condition conveniently shoots up.

 

Many parents put their children on special diets and their attention skills improve so dramatically that the parents then assume their kids maybe didn't have ADHD, but the truth is that it's impossible to tell either way.

 

 

Lucas,

I have started to remove a few of the foods but I need a good book. My son being 18 is hard work so I may need the help of a dietitician, I think I will get the urine test and ask the GP if they have a easy to work with list of what they can eat.

My son was on Sue Dengates diet and the Elimination Diet and found the some preservatives reacted with him especially in food colourings, 282 in bread, chocolate would make him wired to the moon, tomato paste, coloured ice blocks all the obvious things, I got to the point I kept a diary and if I noticed the bad behaviour I analysed what it was he had and remove that from the diet. His doctor told me to put him on a normal diet after going on the Elimination diet as he said nothing of his behaviour changed. The feingold diet is like these two together.

 

One week after having the MMR Booster when he was 15 -he has presented with some challenging side effects after having the MMR injection and he has regressed in every area of his life. Okay he was diagnosed severely disabled with ADD and ASD at the age of 5 at the age of two he was admitted to hospital, with odd behaviours and monitored for a week at age four he was diagnosed with the Autism. But he had Irritable Bowel & Irritable Bladder, developed anxiety and a lack of confidence to go to school. This MMR was the culprit, he obviously could not tolerate it.

As you mentioned the quantity of medication he is taking he started taking medication from the age of 5 1/2 and it gradully became larger doses as he got older. I did diet, behaviour modification, every treatment that was available and advised by what I knew were experts in this field, so no stone was left unturned, and yet they all agreed, he needed to remain on the medication 365 days a week. The medication did give him the ability to integrate in mainstream school. I now in hindsight wondered why I didn't just send him to special school.

I am seriously concerned with the amount of medication he is having to take for the past 18 mnths hes been taking 72mg Concerta was on 2 Risperdal a day to help communication that has been taken back to a half in the morning and needs one Catapres in the afternoon so he can sleep. Since the MMR he has also had to take 2 Anxiety tablets and saw a Clinical Psychologist. His Education is still regressing so I am desperate for more answers as to how I can turn this around, so far I am not getting any answers from anyone, it seems once they turn 18 the Autism Association are reluctant to help. But this has been a problem since he turned 15, the worst he's ever been. I am furious... Thats why I am going down the path of the diet yet again, but this time the Gluten Free diet, as a few have come forward suggesting this. Its just a hard one changing the diet of an 18 year old, they are so set in their ways, he simply refuses some of the gluten free products I have purchased saying they are disgusting, so its one day at a time, removing little by little whatever I can.

Sorry to go on. Its been a hard couple of years. Feel like your on a merry-go-round at times, getting no where, an the advise you get is basically just keep taking his medication, now I am wondering if this is making him sick.

 

I guess I am at that stage where I just need someone to review the whole scenario and tell me, that what I am doing for him is the best way!!! I won't give up until I know he is happy in his own skin so to speak...God love em..

 

Enough said, sorry about the essay.

 

Regards

Hailey

[nellie]

Today society demands flexibility, multi-tasking, co-operative skills and things that Autistics are generally regarded as not being very good at. There has always been a large number of Autistics, it's just that because the enviroment is becoming increasingly inappropriate, the problems are being magnified where as before an Autistic could find their place and stay there

.

 

Lucas,

 

I totally agree with you.

 

Nellie xx

[barefoot wend]

I also agree.

[sue1957]

�Well that's what Autistics are for; to know and remember everything they take in�. Interesting philosophy Lucas! Surely that should apply to everyone? Can I ask what you believe non-Autistics are for? To know nothing and forget everything they take in?

 

Seriously though, do you think Autistics more Self-aware and more connected to Universal Mind than non-Autistics? If so, could it be that Autistics are Self-aware and connect to Universal Mind (sometimes without choosing to) and often despite the difficulties their environment places on how individual mind/Self operates in this space and time?

 

I have wondered whether there was common ground between your views Lucas, and those of us who want to help our children. So first I thought about your experience with the Wisest Autistic.

 

I can see the Wisest Autistic in the Universe no problems. What I don?t understand is the translator. Mind to mind I understand. Mind to translators mind to mind, then what gets lost in translation? In your dream did the translator need to translate your question to the Wisest Autistic, or did the Wisest Autistic understand what you said, but the translator was needed to translate the reply �Life.� (Had I asked what is the cause of joy, in my belief system I would have got the same answer. Life. In my current belief system Universal Mind experiencing joy through the creation of Life).

 

If your question was based on your own belief system of what autism is or isn?t, how do you know that the answer (or the translated answer) was also based on your belief system? If the Wisest Autistic?s belief system included a mind as field theory for example, could what you have asked been understood to mean, or been translated literally as �What is the cause of one-ness (or self)?� or �What is the cause of individual mind?� to which the answer �Life� makes sense. If you write it down

�Life causes autism� it can mean, �Life causes one-ness/self� (lower case, individual mind). However in reverse:

�Autism causes life� also makes sense �One-ness (upper case, mind as a whole/universal mind) causes life.�

So then perhaps we get �Universal Mind causes Life. Life causes individual mind/self.�

 

The translator may have put his own interpretation on what he thought the Wisest Autistic?s response meant, his own working concept, but not necessarily absolute truth. For in my belief system death can be seen as part of a Rebirth- Growth -Fruition-Decay-Death life cycle. Death as a part of life, not extinguishing of life. I would have expected �anti-life� rather than the word death had the translator been explaining the answer from the Wisest Autistic.

 

"Well you wouldn't be Autistic if you were dead now, would you?" in my current belief system is �Well you wouldn?t be individual mind (self) if you were anti life now, would you?�

 

In the example of joy �Well you wouldn?t be joyful if you were dead now, would you?� I don?t need to be joyful to be alive. It is only one potential state of being, and in my belief system being completely joyless doesn?t mean I?m dead. The role of or need for the translator in the dream really puzzles me.

 

If we then go back to the field theory. The body and brain?s mechanical, chemical, biological, perhaps biophotonic etc processes produce a field. The electromagnetic part of this field is measurable. For simplicity let us say that this field is generated by and for individual mind. There is also another field that is believed to organise and direct life. For simplicity let us say that this is generated by Universal Mind to enable individual mind to operate in this space and time. There is evidence that the electromagnetic component of this field is also measurable.

 

As chemical reactions within the body help generate our field, then certain toxins such as fluoride, and heavy metals such as mercury, aluminium etc generate (possibly adversely) differences in the field. In my belief system, this energy field is generated both for and possibly by individual mind, and so fluoride?s neurotoxic effects on the physical body and the energy field can be classed as �anti life.� Fluoride is an enzyme inhibitor, so is perhaps an example of a direct anti-life substance. So removing anti life chemicals, heavy metals or whatever by chelation, diet or whatever else parents try and do, supports Joy/Autism/Self by protecting the body, the filter of individual mind experience, against substances that are anti life.

 

Sometimes parents �know� that what they are doing for their children �feels right� but sometimes we don?t exactly know, or can?t verbalise why. So we tend to look around for a ready-made theory that fits our �knowing� and there are loads out there to choose from. Some have some value to some people but are useless to others, and most are open are being debunked for one reason or another. But they are what they are, a working concept, perhaps a bit like the translators explanation in your dream.

 

I could have a theory that fluoride causes autism. But then not every child with autism has fluoride in his or her environment. It?s the same with vaccination, or anything else. But these factors do influence some of our children?s behaviours and responses to their environment, which are rightly or wrongly labelled as �autistic.� Then there are ideas for �therapies� that are easily accessible to a stressed parent /carer who wants to do something to relieve their child?s distress. We look for answers �out there� already within this space and time. The parent/carer is less likely to have either the time or the unstressed environment to use individual mind to consider their child?s problems uniquely, or separately from any diagnosis, or to access Universal Mind. That is not a luxury many of us have. But it doesn?t mean we �know� nothing. Sometimes too the involvement of �professionals� makes us lose confidence in our own ability to �know� (which is why I try and avoid them!) But we do often �know� something, and our �intention� is to help our children to grow up as independently as is possible to survive on their own-Self in this space and time (for we �know� that there is a high probability we will not always be here in this space and time to help them. At some point in the future, I expect my children to continue life, in this space and time, without me).

 

I can?t see the difference between parents like me and the translator in your dream each finding a theory or a working concept to fit or even provide a belief system. Although well intentioned (i.e. to help you Lucas) "Well you wouldn't be Autistic if you were dead now, would you?" in my belief system is no more valid or less harmful to Autistics than say, �If a child is autistic they need chelation.�

 

To me the translator in the dream represents a barrier to understanding. So can any of us reach across the barrier of good intentions but potential mistranslation, and communicate mind to mind?

 

My current working concept (on which I would value any input) is that I believe it to be a law of physics that electromagnetic fields cannot share the same space without there being interaction between them. So unnatural environmental field (microwaves, mobile phones etc) will also interact with the body?s self generated or (self)-organising electromagnetic fields. As changes in the organising or life field precede changes in function and structure of the body, then adverse environmental fields could potentially be classed as �anti life.�

 

Poor nutrition (a form of slow starvation of nutrients) is also anti life.

Dehydration is anti life.

Shock and stress (from vaccination, emotional shock, whatever) is also anti life. Etc

 

I agree that as an individual self (and as a parent) I should not attempt to eliminate/cure autism (or anything else) because to do so would be to deny another's individual mind/self reflected as one of many ways of being, which is itself anti life.

 

However my son is too young as yet to take care of the physical body �filter� through which his own individual mind/self operates. That as his parent is my chosen response ? ability. I am attempting to remove from his environment that which is anti life. However is that sufficient justification for some of the therapies we try out with our children?

 

Possibly or possibly not, it would depend on my belief system. But what if my actions were based on protecting my own individual mind/self? Would that be more acceptable?

 

I was once told the greatest healer is love. I didn?t get it, because it implies that love will heal our children?s pain and their difficulties, and if they aren?t healed (whatever that means in my belief system) it implies that they aren?t loved enough, which is a non-sense.

 

But perhaps the answer is �Self love.� If we cannot love ourselves unconditionally and take care of or heal ourselves, how can we presume to unconditionally love (or heal) anyone else? (Self Love as self ? ish rather than selfish?)

 

When I remove fluoride from my children?s (with or without autistic label) environment I remove it from (my) Self-environment. In the light of self-love this becomes:

 

When I remove fluoride (an anti life substance in my belief system) from (my) Self-environment I remove it from my children?s (with or without autistic label) environment.

 

Either way autism (or anything else) is not the issue, and the result is the same. No fluoride. Removal of a substance that in my belief system is anti life.

 

When I feed (my) Self with nutritious food I feed my children (with or without an autistic label) with nutritious food.

 

When I really fear vaccination for (my) Self I fear vaccination for all my children (with or without an autistic label).

 

By taking care of Self, parents in turn take care of all their children, with or without labels, until they are old enough to take response-ability for themselves as a physical �filter� through which their own individual mind/self operate.

 

Is �treatment� acceptable if it removes that which is anti life from the whole family and our selves, rather than individual members who happen to have an Autistic label?

 

I am Self-aware (of individual mind) and can connect to Universal Mind at will when (my) Self chooses, provided my �filter� is able to. Does this different ability (not disability) make me Autistic? I cannot choose to do this when the filter through which my Self operates is chemically or electromagnetically stressed (or any other type of stress). These stressors are what disable me, not Autism/Self. When I know what these stressors are (caffeine, overwork whatever) I have the choice and freedom to manipulate my environment to suit my wishes at this moment in time and space. It?s the stressors I can?t see, hear, smell, touch, feel, taste or don?t know about that are the problem. I want to know and remember everything (including the stressors) I take in. I want to know. I want to. I want. I. Self. (Child. Of self. He/she. He/she wants. He/she wants to. He/she wants to know. He/she wants to know and remember everything he/she takes in. Universal Mind wants my children?s individual minds to know and remember everything they take in. Universal Mind wants ??.)

 

I think you have said that Autistics are much better equipped to learn about an environment and manipulate it. That may be true for some adults, but would you agree that for some their environment controls or manipulates them? In my current belief system children generally aren?t equipped to learn about the modern environment (their nervous systems are still developing and trying to adapt to it). They mainly share their parents? environment, or a school environment, and have less chance of manipulating it. My role as a parent means I have a response-ability to work for a safer, healthier environment for all of us to operate self through.

 

My children will have less choice to explore Self and connect with Universal Mind if their internal or external environment for whatever reason stresses them. By removing the stressors from my Self (and my children?s) environment, do I allow them and myself the chance or choice to be Autistic? To know and remember everything we take in? Or do we do nothing for any of us, deny choice for all of us, and during this space-time become so permanently environmentally stressed we all know variable little about anything and forget everything we take in? Is this what being neurotypical means? Too environmentally stressed to think autistically?

 

Lucas, can I ask you. Can I as a parent, using something like a ?mind as field? model as a working concept, trying to remove that which is anti life, and acting with loving intention to my children, avoid offending Autistics? What would you change/add to my working concept?

[call me jaded]

 

Love that, Sue!

[alibaly]

Jings crivens and help ma boab - Sue that was some post

 

I can't believe I actually understood it, I'm so happy I'm going to award myself a Phd in something.

Edited November 16, 2005 by alibaly

[Lucas]

Hailey,

 

A simple fact is that if you are stressed, your son will be stressed, which isn't good for him and he will automatically fall back on his natural instincts to protect himself.

 

There is a difference between stress behaviours and Autistic behaviours, but they are not different in behavioural terms and no one has bothered to find out the difference because many who study behaviour completely disregard cognition. Autism is a cognitive entity. When Bettlehiem observed stimming in the Nazi death camps, he was unable to differentiate it from that of Autistics.

 

Consider that much of your son's behaviour is not Autistic in origin but simple stress and the wild goose chase you have been sent on to deal with it is actually causing it. I am a bit cautious about advising you to gradually take your son off meds or anything else, but as far as I am concerned that army of 'experts' that told you to keep him on them are not thinking about his needs but yours.

 

I have always seen the prescribing of Ritalin, Risperdal and all the other chemical cosh pills as not at all being intended for the child's needs but the parent's. Even though it is the child taking them, the parent is the targeted consumer. When I've told this to doctors they have often been angry and had the nerve to call me irresponsible; they tell me how much better the child/children do in school now and how much happier they are now they are doped up to the eyeballs. This is a fallacy though; the pills alter the child's behaviour which alters the behaviour of the adults they come in contact with which leads to improvement in everything else. The fact that if you skipped out the first step of doping the kid and going straight to modifying all the adults' behaviour in the first place, there would still be the end improvement of them being happier and doing better in school.

 

They don't bother to actually go see all this for themselves though. Often medication can be totally useless BECAUSE when the child goes to school, the teachers still treat them with the same disregard as before.

[smiley]

Wow Sue - Well said!

 

 

Mary xx

 

Edited this to say 'Well said' to Lucas too xx

Edited November 16, 2005 by smileymab

[Lucas]

Interesting philosophy Lucas! Surely that should apply to everyone? Can I ask what you believe non-Autistics are for? To know nothing and forget everything they take in?

 

Identifying what an Autistic is useful for is easy because Autistics and all their aspects stand out. Because NTs are dominant and are the chief controllers of the enviroment in all aspects, their specific strengths are not easily identified because they blend in. Because the difference between Autistics and NTs is defined as what Autistics can and can not do, instead of the other way round, I can't really say what is distinctive about NTs.

 

Of course there is common ground between us, do you think I DON'T want you to help your children?

 

The Wisest Autistic in the Universe could be seen as an allagory for God(the planets do spin) and the translator is the Archangel that must be the word of God. If you've ever seen the film Dogma, you'd know about the theological idea that God cannot speak to a mortal without destroying them(apparently they went through five Adams before working it out) nor could a mortal understand it if they survived. So the word of God must come through an Archangel. God doesn't need a translator to understand what is said to him by a subject, but the subject needs a degree of seperation from God's direct word to even have a chance of understanding.

 

That is how I interpreted the dream. Death by the way is impossible in the sense it was being spoken of; a soul is supposedly immortal and can't cease to exist. I've always thought that I am not just a soul in control of an Autistic body, but an Autistic soul. There isn't a record of God ever telling someone something that they did not understand(though in all cases he spoke through a medium to provide the vital degree of seperation), so God understood the question as it was intended to be asked and answered how he knew it would be understood. If I believe actual death is impossible and that I am an Autistic soul, then the answer is that I am Autistic simply because I exist. The only way I could not be Autistic is if I did not exist.

 

I'll have to come back to the rest of your post another time I'm afraid. Busy today and I need to be in full-on philosophy mode to get through it.

[Malika]

Remove the stress and you will remove autism yes That does make sens and it is what we are all trying to do, stressors can be of any kind, food, chemical, metal, noise, light....but OT explain to do some exercise, can you really dissensetised autistic???

Mine is dessensitised when not stressed out if not all his body defenses come back that is quite right.

 

Now a thought If I die tomorrow and meet the LORD of the worlds He is giving me a choice for the one I have left behind Or to remove the super sensitivity from his mind and body? or to give him complete protection to avoid stressors around him??

 

What is the best choice well I don't know really, and now we have no choice except to remove stressors from their environment.

 

Hailey Dx of ADD and ASD with regression at puberty this suggest may be Fragile X has your son been tested for it???

The fact is with medication they have a different effect on each persone and the DR should try to find the right balance increasing the quantity is not always the right choice.

 

Hope things get better. <'> <'> <'>

 

Malika.

[Lucas]

Removing stress does not remove Autism, it merely relieves what is often erroneously described as 'Autistic behaviour' when it is really stress behaviour. The consistent inability of many professionals to tell the difference is a cause of harm.

[tinminer]

Quote:

"Today society demands flexibility, multi-tasking, co-operative skills and things that Autistics are generally regarded as not being very good at. There has always been a large number of Autistics, it's just that because the enviroment is becoming increasingly inappropriate, the problems are being magnified where as before an Autistic could find their place and stay there."

 

Oh boy, as someone with AS, can I just relate to that!

 

If I could just pick grapes in a field, or bake bread, instead of having to do a hundred different things in an hour.......

 

....not going to happen though.

 

Still, I can always daydream of being a recluse.

 

Ah!....heaven!

Edited November 17, 2005 by tinminer

[Suze]

Reclusion, a phrased coined by my dear son

[Malika]

Agree with you Lucas I did not mean to remove the cause of autism but the expression of it, when my son is on holiday there are hardly any issues with him,

he does some homework and other things like reading and computer games, he is content and meltdown are very rare but of course it does not mean his autism is gone ...when he goes back to school meltdown are starting again.

 

By the way, following your information I just bought him a heavy cosy fluffy new jacket gave it to him this morning (it was so cold) he was so happy about it and said "what a nice fluffy jacket it is the best I ever had...."

 

Malika.

[Guest hallyscomet]

Thanks Lucas and Malika,

 

I am going back to the doctor on my own without my son to bombard him with this. But at the end of they day if I took my son off the medication, I know he is a child at risk, as he has no control. He is likely to run up the street, naked for a laugh, he is so out of control like a happy drunk.

 

See those dude's that run onto the cricket field having a flash for the whole crowd to see. That would be my son. What causes him to be like this, this isn't something Autism causes or ADD what do you say??? Is this mental retardation??? I was in a car accident at 10 weeks pregnant had many injections so the metal levels would have been up, I blame this for a lot of his condition.

 

Regards

Hailey

[Guest hallyscomet]

Thanks Lucas and Malika,

 

I am going back to the doctor on my own without my son to bombard him with this. But at the end of they day if I took my son off the medication, I know he is a child at risk, as he has no control. He is likely to run up the street, naked for a laugh, he is so out of control like a happy drunk.

 

See those dude's that run onto the cricket field having a flash for the whole crowd to see. That would be my son without his medication, this is what he would be at risk of doing, at the age of 4 he ran into the middle of the road and up through the traffic unprovoked, and it took 3 people to catch him . What causes him to be like this, this isn't something Autism causes or ADD what do you say??? Is this mental retardation??? I was in a car accident at 10 weeks pregnant had many injections so the metal levels would have been up, I blame this for a lot of his condition.

 

Regards

Hailey

Edited November 18, 2005 by hallyscomet

[Lucas]

Don't go blaming no metals for anything; if mercury and the like caused Autism, then the diagnoses of all metal poisoning related illnesses would have shot up with the diagnosis rate of Autism too and they haven't.

 

In the UK, the term 'mental retardation' isn't used any more, the term 'learning difficulties' has replaced it out of political correctness. But even that isn't scientific in basis. My own belief is that NO mind is ever idle, they are always doing something and developing in some manner even if it's desirable or not, so there can be no such thing as mental retardation.

 

Running through traffic at the age of 4 sounds normal for a lot of kids, don't worry about that. A lot of ADD and ADHD diagnoses are sure to be wrong purely because experts on child development can be so good raising their own perfect children that they forget what real children can be like, so they think it's odd when you describe to them odd things.

 

Odd is normal regardless of Autism or Neurotypicality.

 

At least he's a happy drunk(the Irish drunk) and not the angry drunk(the Scottish drunk).

 

My opinion about your son is that he is dependant on medication and it's growing and he needs to get adjusted to not having it. Take my opinion with caution though as I have never seen your son before and the doctor's may have complex reasons for prescribing(other than being taken out to dinner by med execs) which they don't make clear. Doctors often do that.

[Malika]

Halley, beside some children with fragile X have some mild learning difficulties not severe one, as well there is a mosaic type of fragile X which is different as well. Well have a look at the link, I have ask for my son to be tested still waiting mind things take so long in here.

 

http://www.fragilex.org/html/home.shtml

 

Take care. <'>

 

Malika.

[Guest hallyscomet]

Thanks Lucas, and Thank you Malika

Minds a bit tired this afternoon, will have a look at this site over the weekend.

 

Have a great weekend to you all,

 

Regards

Hailey

[sue1957]

Identifying what an Autistic is useful for is easy because Autistics and all their aspects stand out. Because NTs are dominant and are the chief controllers of the enviroment in all aspects, their specific strengths are not easily identified because they blend in. Because the difference between Autistics and NTs is defined as what Autistics can and can not do, instead of the other way round, I can't really say what is distinctive about NTs.

 

Of course there is common ground between us, do you think I DON'T want you to help your children?

 

The Wisest Autistic in the Universe could be seen as an allagory for God(the planets do spin) and the translator is the Archangel that must be the word of God. If you've ever seen the film Dogma, you'd know about the theological idea that God cannot speak to a mortal without destroying them(apparently they went through five Adams before working it out) nor could a mortal understand it if they survived. So the word of God must come through an Archangel. God doesn't need a translator to understand what is said to him by a subject, but the subject needs a degree of seperation from God's direct word to even have a chance of understanding.

 

That is how I interpreted the dream. Death by the way is impossible in the sense it was being spoken of; a soul is supposedly immortal and can't cease to exist. I've always thought that I am not just a soul in control of an Autistic body, but an Autistic soul. There isn't a record of God ever telling someone something that they did not understand(though in all cases he spoke through a medium to provide the vital degree of seperation), so God understood the question as it was intended to be asked and answered how he knew it would be understood. If I believe actual death is impossible and that I am an Autistic soul, then the answer is that I am Autistic simply because I exist. The only way I could not be Autistic is if I did not exist.

Lucas

 

In your working concept Autistics and all their aspects stand out. They are the interesting ones then. But the strengths of non-autistics are �not easily identified� (not easily �I (am) dentified?) Does an Autistic God (represented by the Wisest Autistic in the Universe) create superior autistic human souls (i.e. in His Own Autistic Image) plus other human souls who are not autistic (who as they are not Autistic in His Own Image are presumably not quite so equal). Why does He create more souls who are non-autistic? Perhaps its because we are useful (like worker ants?) - and at least we blend in.

 

If I am not an autistic soul, are there two Gods? (Perhaps the Wisest Non-Autistic in the Universe is female?)

 

If death as you say is impossible in the sense it was being spoken of; (a soul is supposedly immortal and can't cease to exist) then "Well you wouldn't be Autistic if you were dead now, would you?" cannot come from God unless God speaks of things sense-ibly impossible to (your) Self i.e. You will always be autistic, because you cannot cease to exist. If you cannot cease to exist, how could death stop you from being autistic?

 

The Wisest Autistic cannot be God, unless your belief system allows God to make mistakes. Or the translator/Archangel mistranslated, or allowed his own belief system to influence the sentence, which God made a mistake of allowing.

 

The God you describe needs �subjects� and He destroys his �subjects� if they look at Him. Is destroying an autistic or non autistic soul not anti-Life? Why destroy a part of Himself? Does He lack time for more than one question? Surely any God who �needs� or �lacks� anything isn?t the One True God? One chance to get your question perfect? Or is your own �I am� so perfect there was no other choice but to ask the perfect question?

 

The belief system that a (male?) God needs a (male?) instrument to interpret His messages to all aspects of Self, gives power to those (Self) appointed to deliver the message. If we accept this as our belief system, which is one choice, we give our �I am� to another Self, who is not God, and become the slaves of the Self who delivers the message. This philosophy comes from another age, but is no more �truth� now than it was then. Dogma (arrogant declaration of opinion) is a good word for this philosophy though. I won?t worry that I?ve missed the film.

 

You have mind-ed me what in my belief system non-autistic means. It does not mean that we do not �KNOW� it means that we have temporarily forgotten Self/�I am� in order to �EXPERIENCE� God?s physical Creation. When my son was displaying his stress behaviours, he was seeking Self through a nervous system that was overloaded because of his environment. Those who adapt to their environment may be non autistic (choosing to EXPERIENCE God?s physical creation accessed by the neuron) or they may be able to switch between autistic (knowing) and non autistic (experiencing) at will. Switch between, using (Self) will. Choice. Both. Together.

 

Do children need to head bang, or gnaw themselves in an effort to know they exist? Or can I as a parent change the environment they are in so that they can �KNOW� their Self/�I am� without damaging their physical body, the filter, the antenna to both receive and transmit to and with All That Is, and also EXPERIENCE wonder at the creation of Life?

 

When my son was displaying stress behaviours I approached Universal Mind and asked what was the greatest healer. The answer was love. I lost my faith in my then working concept of Universal Mind because if love is the healer my son wasn?t loved. So therefore Universal Mind was either wrong, or I (and Universal Mind) did not love my child enough. My Self is re-mind-ed of this: �One question I often ask parents of Autistic children is "Would you rather have your child Neurotypical, or remain Autistic at the highest functioning peak?" and the answer is mostly "Neurotypical". I then find it hard to swallow any claim that they love their child after that.� From one question, (reflected by your God?s allowing one question) with only your dogma/interpreted version of �truth� of what is neurotypical and autistic, in the same manner of fear you perceive your God, you �subject� us parents to the fear that we do not love our children. If my Self chooses to believe you, I allow you to do (my) Self harm. If I allow you to do harm to my Self, in turn I allow you to harm my children.

 

My mistake (not Universal Mind?s) was in temporarily forgetting (non Autistic) that my Self (Autistic) �knows� that there can be more than one question, and more than one answer. I have now re-awake-nd (I remember).

 

I re-awake to the �knowing� that Universal Mind allows me to CHOOSE to ask for clarification to anything I want to fully �know� AND �experience� as MY truth. Because my �I am� is not a �know all� I can approach Universal Mind as often as I like, any time I choose, there is no need for a translator, Universal Mind �needs� no separation from (my) self. If I need a translator it is because my Self needs a translator, Universal Mind does not need anything. If I choose to be �subjected� to a God of fear, then I choose a God of fear. I get what my Self chooses. If my �Self� chooses to see Universal Mind as love, my connection will be based on love.

 

If every human soul is of one God, then in my belief system if God is Autistic/Universal Mind, then all human souls are Autistic/individual mind. If God is Non-Autistic/Universal Mind then all human souls are Non-Autistic/individual mind. How or why would either an Autistic or a Non-Autistic God create something that is not of Himself?

 

For both to exist at the same time, I believe God/Universal Mind is both Autistic and Non-Autistic at the same time, and all human souls are both Autistic and Non Autistic/individual mind at the same time. All are equal. Having a soul that is both Autistic (which allows me to choose to know a timeless, infinite God/Universal Mind) and non-autistic, which allows me to choose, alongside other individual souls, to experience the creation of life here and now (with neurons, typical or otherwise).

 

Lucas you say �Of course there is common ground between us, do you think I DON'T want you to help your children?�

 

What is the common ground we share? To be honest, I do think you don?t want me to help my children, because I believe you think I am too non-autistic (not knowing, forgetful) or stupid. I believe you assume (wrongly) that I am not autistic, and that if I do not follow your belief system about autism then I cannot love my child. That is ignorance. IGNORE-ance of any belief system other than your own. If I choose to believe you, this does my Self harm, which in turn harms my children.

 

I repeat �One question I often ask parents of Autistic children is "Would you rather have your child Neurotypical, or remain Autistic at the highest functioning peak?" and the answer is mostly "Neurotypical". I then find it hard to swallow any claim that they love their child after that.�

 

Your attitude implies that parents who want to help their children?s nervous systems by removing stressors from their environment (in my belief system allowing them to be neurotypical in order to FULLY know and experience Self) are parents who do not love our children.

 

Neurotypical means to me that my nervous system is capable of functioning in the environment in which (my) Self is operating at this moment in time and space. Autistics may have problems adapting to their environment but that means they have problems adapting to their environment. As autistics still have neurons, if their Self is exclusively autistic, then my Self is exclusively autistic. We all have neurons. In my belief system, my child can be neurotypical and remain Autistic at the highest functioning peak. Both. Separately or together. My child can connect Self/individual mind to Universal Mind and know. He can involve Self/individual mind in the experience of the physical world of the neuron and be non autistic or NT. In doing so he �experiences� the creation of Life. If we are supposed to be permanently Self aware and connected to Universal Mind, what would be the point of the experience of Self in the physical world of neurons? Or is that another of God?s little neurotypical mistakes?

 

Like me, my son has the potential to choose to connect to Universal Mind whilst he washes the dishes. To make sacred even the mundane. That in my belief system is what multitasking will eventually come to mean. My Self can do both, when my Self chooses to do both, but only if my nervous system is able to do both. That is the choice my Self desires for ALL my children.

 

Is this so wrong? Do you still think I deserve harsh (pre) judgements?

 

�How Autism is regarded now has been shaped by the parental desire for absolution and reassurance.� So we?ve done something wrong then? I do not seek atonement; I seek at ? ONE ?ment.

 

�?..parents flock to quacks� (we take our children for unscientific treatment with therapists with dubious credentials). Parents seek truth, like everyone else, including your Self.

 

�Chattering professionals� We take our children to people who talk too much about something they have no experience of, and get paid for it. What does that say about my Self as a parent?

 

Oh and my recent favourite �I often find myself surprised that NTs can tell the difference between their arses and elbows, the only consistent and reliable thing about them is that they are unpredictable, erratic and unreasonable.�

 

Parents can definitely tell their arses from their elbows. I certainly can, (I have yet to put a nappy on an elbow ) so like other parents surely I must be autistic, being as �I am� consistent and reliable and perfectly able to ask for advice, but think for myself and decide what is best for my child? Oh and if ? even for a moment - you feel unpredictable, erratic and unreasonable, then surely at that moment you are NT?

 

Are you both autistic and NT like me? If you insist that you have an autistic soul and I do not, then you damn my non autistic soul to an eternity of often surprising your autistic soul Self that my Self can tell the difference between my ar*e and my elbow. (Oh joy!) You set yourself up as superior to me and ?if I choose to believe your Self - that does (my Self) harm.

 

�A simple fact is that if you are stressed, your son will be stressed, which isn't good for him and he will automatically fall back on his natural instincts to protect himself�. Parent, it?s your fault (if you are stressed your son will be stressed = if you were not stressed your son would not be stressed. He protects himself (from the parent and the parents stress). = Parents harm their children.

 

Having persuaded me that the autistic spectrum doesn?t exist, I see you now prepared to give parents advice. What do you suggest Lucas? What can I do? Oh the irony! Instead of having my Self-confidence sapped by chattering professionals, I can have it sapped by someone who has never even met my children, and who insults me as a parent. You become the chattering professional (paid not in financial energy but in the energy behind praise and thanks). Your own belief system is based on a working concept of what autism is, with no scientific basis, so I can replace one dubious therapist for another. I can give my �I am� to yet another Self-appointed messenger of a theory, presented as truth.

 

My hope as a parent is for help from someone who is loving enough to recognize and respect my soul and all souls equally, and allow for the potential of ALL that is, Universal Mind, both Autistic and Non Autistic, God, Goddess, no gender, the Infinite and microscopic??... etc etc

 

You freely offer fear and insults; graciousness and respect appear to depend on obedience to your version of �truth.� I have no idea what common ground you think we share. The common ground I seek WITH you needs to exist without a state of fear, which only serves to separate us. Is there a state of grace that both connects and allows both Autistic (knowing) and Non Autistic (experiencing)? Can they be honoured equally, and their potential to exist at the same time be ac-knowledge-d?

 

Or shall I forget it and go back to trying to remember the difference between my ar*e and my elbow?

[call me jaded]

You have mind-ed me what in my belief system non-autistic means. It does not mean that we do not �KNOW� it means that we have temporarily forgotten Self/�I am� in order to �EXPERIENCE� God?s physical Creation. When my son was displaying his stress behaviours, he was seeking Self through a nervous system that was overloaded because of his environment. Those who adapt to their environment may be non autistic (choosing to EXPERIENCE God?s physical creation accessed by the neuron) or they may be able to switch between autistic (knowing) and non autistic (experiencing) at will. Switch between, using (Self) will. Choice. Both. Together.

 

Sue I was so going to try to express this myself, but it would have probably taken me days to get a wording I was happy with.

[Noetic]

But at the end of they day if I took my son off the medication, I know he is a child at risk, as he has no control.  He is likely to run up the street, naked for a laugh, he is so out of control like a happy drunk.

 

See those dude's that run onto the cricket field having a flash for the whole crowd to see.  That would be my son.  What causes him to be like this, this isn't something Autism causes or ADD what do you say???

Why do you say this isn't something autism- or ADHD-related?

 

Sounds very typical of the impulsive types of behaviours seen in some people with autism and/or ADHD! The taking clothes off bit is often related to sensory issues in autism, i.e. not liking the feel of clothes on the skin. With ADHD it tends to be more of an impulsive thing, or for attention (which provides the needed stimulation).

 

The fact that stimulant medication (which would in a 'normal' child make these symptoms WORSE not better) helps him so much in inhibiting these often dangerous (esp. when moving traffic is involved, and the need for stimulation also puts ADHD individuals at a greater risk for drug and alcohol abuse) impulsive behaviours also seems to indicate that at least part of these issues are caused by ADHD (or an ADHD component of his Autism).

 

Yes it is true that many kids with autism and ADHD also have a lot of issues with food and chemical sensitivities, but in most cases even when these are dealt with, the child still remains autistic or ADHD.

Edited November 19, 2005 by Noetic

[natasha778]

WOOOW, Sue, I think I got that, in which case I almost totally agree.

 

 

 

Lucas, I do believe you when you say you want to help our children, it is just that you (from what I gather, correct me if I'm wrong) believe that the ONLY way to help is through understanding and acceptance. Which is fab, love and understanding and all, but I'm tired of hearing opinions that go along the lines of dismissing every (biomedical or behavioural) approach or theory as flawed, hurtful, unscientific or morally wrong, every doctor as quack, every parent as selfish, every treatment as 'snake-oil'. I'll risk sounding utopian and naive but will bring up the following question: is it possible that we (i.e. both sides in this argument) could one day meet somewhere in the middle and try and find a way from there? I just think that new approach (and agreement) is needed in order to maximise benefits (iiieee, so corporate-speak ) for both our children, parents and adult autistics. Agree?

[LizK]

Wow Sue had to read that about three times to understand it fully but agree mostly with all you've written

 

Lucas, I do believe you when you say you want to help our children, it is just that you (from what I gather, correct me if I'm wrong) believe that the ONLY way to help is through understanding and acceptance.

 

Does it depend whether you see autism as a sociological entity, a alternative way of being or as a medical condition? From reading this thread I have assumed Lucas belief system is of the former hence the only way to help is through love, acceptance and the world changing and being more tolerant. Maybe this is based upon Lucas's personal experiences, I don't know. One thing I've learned from reading this board is that children and adults with autism are all so very different and projecting one person's views or experiences of what works or how they feel onto the whole autistic population seems blinkered

 

For my own part I see it as both sociiological and medical as my son is impaired by his autism. Reading Lucas' posts have been very enlightening and challenged my own thought processes whilst also clarifying other points I disagree on. My son does needs understanding and acceptance but he needs more than that to maximise his potential and reduce the degree to which he is imapired by his autism. It doesn't mean I am denying him his autism or what he is but I will do my damnest to help his passage through life be as easy as possible. Seeing his intense frustrated when he can't express what he wants, anxious when he doesn't understand what is going on around him fully or forlorn when he wants to play with another child but doesn't know how to, the list of situations when life is harder for him goes on and on. Loving and accepting him goes a way to helping but it's not enough and I make no apology for getting whatever I can in the shape of early intervention to help him.

 

Lx

[Lucas]

Sue, your post is far too long and complex for me to fully get my head around, but I AM very annoyed that you had to resort to strawman arguements to back up your own beliefs about me. You simply take what I say and then draw your own conclusions about what I think on perimiter issues, there is no consideration or question put to me that isn't loaded. This is exactly what is harmful to Autistics. You have inserted some very hostile projections into what I've said that weren't there to begin with.

 

Can you please reply with shorter posts and speak to me on each point individually. I didn't actually know the hostile arguement hadn't finished and I am suprised by your latest post which in all irony consists of nothing but dogma.

 

You also seem to have deliberately not differentiated between allagory and literal representation when speaking about the Wisest Autistic in the Universe.

 

A lot of others have said they agree with you, but this doesn't really tell me anything as I haven't been able to work out any specific points you made. For all I know they don't have any idea of what they are agreeing with.

[bid]

Can all posters please avoid getting too personal

 

Bid, wearing her Moderator's Hat

[Noetic]

Bid, wearing her Moderator's Hat

Are you sure you got the right hat?

[call me jaded]

Clapping my hands and barking in seal-like appreciation is really not my style. If I agree with a post it's because I understand it.

[Lucas]

Then be kind and provide a translation.

[LizK]

A lot of others have said they agree with you, but this doesn't really tell me anything as I haven't been able to work out any specific points you made. For all I know they don't have any idea of what they are agreeing with.

 

LOL! The first part about Universal minds etc did take some getting my own mind around (hence rereading it several times) though then again I don't find some of your posts easy to understand on first reading too The second part was more to the point and sentiments I wholeheartedly agree with

 

Lx

[call me jaded]

Which bit Lucas?

[Malika]

For my own part I see it as both sociiological and medical as my son is impaired by his autism. Reading Lucas' posts have been very enlightening and challenged my own thought processes whilst also clarifying other points I disagree on. My son does needs understanding and acceptance but he needs more than that to maximise his potential and reduce the degree to which he is imapired by his autism. It doesn't mean I am denying him his autism or what he is but I will do my damnest to help his passage through life be as easy as possible. Seeing his intense frustrated when he can't express what he wants, anxious when he doesn't understand what is going on around him fully or forlorn when he wants to play with another child but doesn't know how to, the list of situations when life is harder for him goes on and on. Loving and accepting him goes a way to helping but it's not enough and I make no apology for getting whatever I can in the shape of early intervention to help him.

 

Hi Liz and all

 

I am with you in this to see autism under an only phylosophical perspective or only under a scientific one is narrowing our human capacity we are both matiere and spirit or body and mind with lot of interaction and connection between both

and for this reason it is our duty as human being to be kind and tolerant as well as seeking scientific answer to the complex autistic question.

 

Lucas I understand your frustration about people extrapolating from what you say, thoughts, which are their own and you have not express, it is difficult to resist when what you say is somehow complex to grasp for a NT mind, it is an attempt to understand more not to patronise you I think , as for myself I want to thank you to help me opening my mind and allowing me to have a more "autistic" perspective on the all subject, the may be only NT view that autistics should be normalised is not necessarly an attempt to controle and refuse the way they are but to try to find possible solution to allow them to be more independant and to lead an happier life which should allow stress relief strategy in most of public setting specialy school and work.

 

 

Sue I understand your philosophical point and agree with most but disagree on the fact that as Nt ,we have the choice to be autistic or NT even if we approach the autistic mind and experience some autistic behaviour they remain completely different as we can swich back ( being in controle of where and when) to NT, something autistic cannot do and is fundamental in understanding other people point of view, as NT the point we will never be able to understand is, what it is to live in this society as an autistic with no possibilities to experience being an NT the fact that we think we have the choice and they have not, is blurred it is like the journalist who paint himself black to experience what it is to be black, the fact is that it has allowed him to understand the degree of discrimination but only to a certain extend and having the confort to know that at any time he could choose to get out of it, and that he had controle over it, autistic people do not have controle over their condition.

 

AS regarding religious belief most of religion see life on earth as a temporary aspect of life and see it as a test to what will come next, while we NT are fully responsible of our action because of our understanding and controle over our ownself people with autism would not be consider fully responsible for their action and reaction, in this way we NT people should show more patience and kindness as we have more controle over our action and reaction toward the people and environment around us.

 

Take care all. <'>

 

Malika.

[natasha778]

ops! sorry, still learning how to use this...

Edited November 20, 2005 by natasha778