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Zemanski

Com can see faces

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cost is an issue - this should be free on the NHS but it isn't

 

given the difference it has made to Com, and he has had irlen lenses which did have some effect, I would not hesitate to say that the system Ian is using is better and worth it if you know your child has visual sensitivity.

 

other opticians do not take the full range of sensitivities into account and irlen and colorimeter both focus mainly on reading which for Com is not a major problem.

 

because I took part in Com's testing and I have visual differences myself I have experienced first hand the difference Ian can make to vision - it is real and I didn't experience nearly the same effect with irlen

 

Zemanski

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As the optician that designed the first range of lenses designed to modify neural responses I am horrified at the statements made by Jen.

Costs - I agree, I would love to do everything free - but don't think I charge more per hour than your optician in the high street - I don't. If they charge little then you get what you pay for. There is a political aspect to this and it is of no good to people with visual perceptual problems in ASD to accept that poor treatment techniques become the norm and therefore always ensure that for best practice private work is necessary. Be awkward with your MP.

Coming to see me is not practical nor could i cope with numbers if even 0.001% of people came to me (with sensory integration problems)

 

You would need to try at least 1000 lenses to get the best colour so anyone who uses that method is suspect and should be passing it on to someone who understands the subject.

 

You cannot tell which colour is optimum by using the argument for crosslaterality. Red because your child has difficulty with his left side of the brain is nonsense and it is easy to show. If the optician told you this I am shocked at his lack of knowledge.

 

You were lucky to get an improvement - but could it be better - a lot better?

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another point is that Com's visual problems are severe, imagine if you can being completely blind to people's faces, seeing the world as flat with almost no depth, not being able to distinguish detail.

 

Com has been to many specialist opticians since he was 3 years old, including university training establishments, and none understood or could even recognise the problems he was having.

 

I discovered prosopagnosia quite by accident, thanks Tes :) , and was devastated when I realised what a fundamental problem we had missed for Com, he is now 13.

From the beginning Ian has been the only person who has been able to offer me any advice and information on how to deal with it. And I have contacted many people, both in the field of ASDs and vision

At the moment Com's consultant and GP are trying to find a specialist in prosopagnosia to refer Com to and are failing. And even if they find one I already know that they will have no recommendations for treatment because none are currently recognised.

Most of what I know about visual perception and prosopagnosia I have researched myself, as an ASD specialist, I have read papers till they come out my ears, neurology, psychology, ASD related........... They all say the same thing, this is a severe and debilitating condition but none offer help.

 

Part of me was dubious when Ian said he could help, but he talked sense about what might be happening in Com's brain and the explanations he offered tallied with the research I had been doing, for the first time in Com's life I had found someone who could understand what I was talking about when I described Com's problems.

 

Ian is an optician with a special interest - we all know about special interests, very useful things sometimes - and he is very committed to his work.

 

We had already arranged to go to him with Com but when things blew up at school he went out of his way (literally) to help us and we have been stunned with just what a difference he has made to Com.

 

Com can now see faces - no-one else has even suggested it might be possible, never mind enabled him to do it.

 

Ian did what he said he could and he has made a difference to all our lives :notworthy:

 

thanks, Ian :D

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Hi, :)

 

To be fair all what I have perceived from Ian posts is his willingness to help :thumbs: and his concern that we can get through the proper assesment which does not seem to be on offer with the NHS :wallbash: and even if it was you would then have various barrier to pass before getting access and probably one year waiting list :wallbash:

 

The fact is that in this country (and not just this one) there are no adequate provisions for children with AS or ASD specially regarding motor sensory issue with my recent experience with H OT assesment I can see that they are not knowledgeable about sensory matter (willingly or unwillingly) and at the end I will have to try to save enough money for a private OT assesment, even when my son went to speech therapie at age 4 the therapist did not understand that his problem was ASD related....!!! unfortunatly the ignorance of much professional respecting to AS ASD is frightning, especialy most (not all ;) ) of the professional from an older generation seem not to be willing to rectifie the matter. :(

 

All the best. :)

 

Malika.

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And of course Ian needs to earn a living just like all other professionals who would charge if their client were not entitle to receive NHS treatment I remember enquiring for my husband in needs of a liver scan and the lower price for an ultrsa sound scan (15 mns) was ?180... :wacko:

 

Thanks Ian you advice and help is much apreciated. :thumbs:

 

Malika.

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It was a neurological chiropractor who recommended the rose tinted speciacles to reduce the mesencephalic brain stem output for my child. Not an opticion. My child has abbrerrancies in cerebellar output bilaterally but particular with the associated right parietal/frontal lobe deficits.

 

When my child was assessed I did not know about the work Ian does. I done the best I could with the experience I had at that particular time in his life and no one should be little me for that.

 

I was making a statement that alot of people could not aford Ian fees (that is a fact). A lot of people in the past has received poor advice regarding colour lenses and I do believe Ian is trying to help people and is very willing to talk to people which is a good thing.

 

Some people will do anything to help there child, they will travel and spend a lot of money, for other parents money is a big issue and therefore affects the decisions people can make.

 

 

How many people are trained and qualifed to use the technique Ian is using. Where did the research start from and is it more advanced in other countries.

 

Jen

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Hi guys :)

 

Remember that we are all parents trying to do the best for our children >:D<<'>

 

Let's not make each other feel uncomfortable over any choices we make :(

 

Bid :bat: (wearing her Moderator's hat :o )

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There are only a handful of people trained using the most effective techniques but there is to be a 20 week post grad diploma course starting September. More professionals are being trained but it is an extremely complex subject.

I understand the techniques (generally a kinesthetic method) a chiropractor uses but feel that they are poor in determining lens colour. I may use the same techniques as a check on non verbal children but it is not very accurate. It is unsafe to prescribe any colour without checking both provocation and alleviation of symptoms with a particular lens - it is possible for a red lens to be blue in some lights! Visual stimulus induced sensory integration modification can be that a colour that helps one sensory pathway can have adverse side effects on another. Please be careful.

 

If people want a history of colour prescribing there is a description in one of my books which I will happily send to anyone who requires it (no charge). The techniques we use have only become possible within the last five years (we were given part funding by UK government). Tint therapy in a primitive format has been used since the 1930's

 

As for fees and lens costs - these are determined by manufacturer and are a lot more expensive than normal lenses (as normal lenses are not good enough in 80% of cases) - I would love them to be free. Time is costed at a very low cost per hour - I would love to do it under NHS (it is possible but very difficult),

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Ian - if you're reading!

 

I had both my daughter, who is dyslexic, and myself, who suffers from visual disturbance, tested for coloured lenses by a **************- have you heard of him and is he doing the same kind of thing as yourself? Incidently my daughter thought a coloured overlay helped a bit but quickly gave up using it so it can't have been doing much for her but I now have some very groovy green-tinted glasses which help me enormously when reading. Obviously the assessments are very expensive and I could not afford to do another for myself but possibly my 8 year old autistic son could benefit. He is largely non-verbal so how would you go about testing him and how would you know if it was working without spending lots of money on a pair of glasses first?

 

Many questions I know but I hope you have some answers!!!!!!! :pray:

 

[Edited by Moderator...ohforaquietlife, we avoid naming professionals on the forum. Please could you use the PM facility to ask Ian about this? Cheers! Bid :)]

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Ian,

 

I will read up on your work because anything that help ASD children is helpful but unfortunalty things like therapeutic colour, hearing devices and assessements for chidren with sensory problems are just at the beginning. We are learning all the time and these children are so complexed and variable.

 

Jen

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[Edited by Moderator...ohforaquietlife, we avoid naming professionals on the forum. Please could you use the PM facility to ask Ian about this? Cheers! Bid :)]

Ok, sorry I didn't know. I wasn't trying to dis anyone but I'll remember next time :oops:

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Hi Jen

 

reading back I can see where you were coming from - none of us want people to waste their money and energy following some madcap cureby fad and there is so much that should be free to our children like Elaine's OT and all those people who have to pay for private diagnosis or SALT or the tests bowel problems but in some ways this thread, which just really started as a big thank you to Ian, does sound a bit like an advert.

 

Ian has been with us a long time, longer than me certainly, and for most of that time he has been very quiet and reserved about his work, he tends to PM people who ask for information rather than posting for all of us. Just at the moment though he has become a bit more famous with his talk in Sunderland coming up and when he helped us out at very short notice and really made a difference for Com who has a severe disability associated with his AS which has been labelled untreatable I could not help but shout about it.

 

Sorry if I got a bit defensive

 

Zemanski

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Has anyone found any research in this country or another country on the treatment Ian is using if so I would like to read it.

 

Jen

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there is not much out there that I can find - loads on prosopagnosia and brain function which has been my area but not on how it can be treated, Ian has one paper out available on sciencedirect but unreferenced (it would be nice to have references to follow up, Ian) and there are links on his website to similar information plus there are his books.

 

Irlen focuses mainly on dyslexia and related problems but there is some on scotopic sensitivity and autism on the irlen site.

 

Olga Bogdashina's book on sensory issues in AS and autism is very good It has the best coverage of visual sensitivity I have come across (the only book I've found that even mentions prosopagnosia) and discusses both irlen and behavioural optometry (which had little or no positive effect on Com), there are a few references but most are fairly old so the only lens system mentioned is irlen.

 

When Dot gives me back my computer so I can log on to Athens I'll try and find something a bit more up to date.

 

Zemanski

Edited by Zemanski

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peer reviewed instruments and techniques sponsored by UK government are subject to confidentiality and whilst the science is proven will not be released to the general public.

 

however,

 

I would have thought your friend in the hospital would have pointed you towards an introductory presentation of the subject at the Royal College of Opthalmologists national clinical conference this year. It will start you off well.

You could also access papers presented by me at the World Dyslexia Congress, International Dyspraxia Foundation national conference, Audiologists national balance conference, International Special needs conference, British dyslexia association international conference and they also would be a good start. Alternatively you may wish to go down the ergonomist, optical or psychology route (have presented at prestgious conferences in these areas too). The basic lecture on this subject can be used to gain further education points by the optical professions.

Anatomical and physiological papers are in abundance - try looking at physiology of colour, retinal mapping, the effects of stimulus on the cranial nerves, psychophysics of colour.

Mathematically you may wish to look at temporal processing - fourier transforms are important. Comparisons between analogue and digital processing can show some interesting effects. Absolute colour space and metamerism is critical. Understand that colour prescribing can be as accurate as refractive prescribing (and I believe as important in many cases)

Differences between additive and subtractive colour is important too as well as the effects on muscle balnce and fusion. Brain maps, psychometrics, and posturography are particularly interesting. There are a lot of other areas that you may also wish to access - I recommend looking magnocellular / parvocellular timing and integration, peripheral motion detection and the lateral geniculate nucleus.

Band filters / notch filters / broad spectrum filters need to be understood and their relationship with illumination.

Most of the science is well known and fully accepted and mathematically provable and if you know the areas to access there are enormous numbers of papers. Which ones depend on your knowledge area. The trick is to combine them all and make sense of it!

And this is just the start!

If you really want to find out - come on the course - it will be fully accredited, but it is a complex subject. The course will be the first in the world - we are world leaders in the UK - and the methods we use whilst subject to some secrecy have been peer reviewed (by government scientists) are the gold standard.

There are some areas that have not been peer reviewed however, this does not alter their validity, its just that the observations using new techniques have moved so quickly. But any professional person has to take responsability for prescribing in these cases. The "old science" is totally inadequate in many ways and regardless of papers and peer review we have to take personal responsability for ensuring improvements. Many conditions we see are told that "there is nothing we can do" - and immediate improvements can be made in which distressing symptoms stop. Sorry, I will not wait 20 years to help people - who is going to pay for the clinical trials if there is no money to be made from drugs!

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Hi Ian and all, :)

 

who is going to pay for the clinical trials if there is no money to be made from drugs!

 

This is the bitter reality and this is while OT Optometry and may be sound therapy could help our children immensly there is hardly any funding for it instead and especialy in the US there is a huge tendency to medicate people with ASD before trying anything else. :(:devil:

 

Ian please I am still curious to know if your treatment could help adult as well?

 

Malika.

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This is why I have stuck mostly to the prosopagnosia and ASD papers - my science is not up to yours, Ian :notworthy: , for a lay person I think I probably have a pretty good knowledge of brain function and the sensory system but my background is child psychology and education and my lack of experience in medical and neurological areas makes it difficult to know what to look for in the first place and then I have to work hard to make sense of it :D .

 

Have to get my assignment done on stability in schools before I can wade into this lot or I'll get too distracted - I really am fascinated.

 

Malika, I know it can help because it made such a difference to my perceptions when Ian was testing Com, - perhaps when Dot has had her turn

 

Zemanski

Edited by Zemanski

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You will become fascinated - it is an exciting area, and very poorly understood.

 

Only one caveat to researching papers - they often are too limited and cannot take an overall view, which you need to evolve within yourself when researching. If you get stuck with "missing links" will be happy to help. The model we work with is hideously complex and very sensitive - maybe you will be able to improve it!

 

 

Most of my patients are adults - probably 75%

 

 

best wishes

Ian

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Ian

 

Was your work a follow on from the Dyslexic side and colour filters or not.

What is the success rate with children and how long do they need to wear these coloured lenses for.

 

Jen

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Hi to all. :)

 

Thanks :) Ian I will bear this in mind when I'll talk to my friend.

 

Zemanski I am convince it would help H that is why tomorow I will go to see Sally Ann for H to be tested. B)

 

and by the way this is something I found on the Autism org website, and I wanted to know if it is more connected to a visual dysfunction or purely physical perception or may be both.

 

 

 

Vestibular System: The vestibular system refers to structures within the inner ear (the semi-circular canals) that detect movement and changes in the position of the head. For example, the vestibular system tells you when your head is upright or tilted (even with your eyes closed). Dysfunction within this system may manifest itself in two different ways. Some children may be hypersensitive to vestibular stimulation and have fearful reactions to ordinary movement activities (e.g., swings, slides, ramps, inclines). They may also have trouble learning to climb or descend stairs or hills; and they may be apprehensive walking or crawling on uneven or unstable surfaces. As a result, they seem fearful in space. In general, these children appear clumsy. On the other extreme, the child may actively seek very intense sensory experiences such as excessive body whirling, jumping, and/or spinning. This type of child demonstrates signs of a hypo-reactive vestibular system; that is, they are trying continuously to sti mulate their vestibular systems.

 

Proprioceptive System: The proprioceptive system refers to components of muscles, joints, and tendons that provide a person with a subconscious awareness of body position. When proprioception is functioning efficiently, an individual's body position is automatically adjusted in different situations; for example, the proprioceptive system is responsible for providing the body with the necessary signals to allow us to sit properly in a chair and to step off a curb smoothly. It also allows us to manipulate objects using fine motor movements, such as writing with a pencil, using a spoon to drink soup, and buttoning one's shirt. Some common signs of proprioceptive dysfunction are clumsiness, a tendency to fall, a lack of awareness of body position in space, odd body posturing, minimal crawling when young, difficulty manipulating small objects (buttons, snaps), eating in a sloppy manner, and resistance to new motor movement activities.

 

Any comment welcome.

 

Take care all. >:D<<'>

 

Malika.

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When one sense is out of balance it has an impact on all other senses because all the sensory systems are connected; I know both my children have visual perception problems but they also both have other difficulties, with Com the visual is the primary issue with all the other senses affected at a lower level. It is likely that he is using other senses to compensate for his visual difficulties so his hearing, for example, is over-acute and sensitive to particular sounds. Theoretically if the primary problem is treated this should impact on the other senses bringing the whole sensory system closer to balance so that all sensory issues are improved with the treatment of the core problem.

 

If the core problem is auditory then presumably treating the auditory sensitivity would impact on the visual system?

 

In the Luke Jackson programme one effect of Ian's lenses that was shown was on the ability to walk in a straight line down a corridor - Luke had a distinct drift without the lenses but could walk pretty straight with them - which does suggest that treating visual sensitivity has an impact on the physical senses.

 

So far I haven't noticed anything physical with Com except that he keeps his head up more and it is straighter but he hasn't attempted to walk down a corridor in front of me yet :P

 

Zemanski

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Thanks Zemanski,

 

The 2 parts of the quote I have put earlier are very much a summing up of H difficulties except that he use to crawl a lot when he was a baby but kept bumping into obstacles.

 

One of the test done by H paediatrician was to make him walk in line puting his feet one in front of another without leaving a space and H said he could not do it.

 

I cannot wait for tomorrow may be we will have break through respective to H difficulties.

 

Malika.

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Dyslexia filters

 

This is also a massive subject.

I initially was interested in dyslexia and the effects of filters but have come to realise that the symptoms shown by those with visual perceptual problems in reading are symptoms of a much wider syndrome which has not as yet been recognised. I am however preparing a book on it (a paper is just too restricting as much good evidence would be ignored) and a number of papers.

 

I had to design a new range of filters for reading problems because the standard dyslexia filters (which are still incidently the ones used by most people who use tinted lenses) could not go anywhere near the colour space positions I found were necessary. To give you an idea - overlays will typically only address 10 - 15 % of colour space - the screning methods we use address over 70%. Standard broad spectrum filters are often more a brightness control than a colour control although this often is necessary. The lenses we use are entirely different to normal optometric lenses - the other systems use indistinguishable lenses!!!

 

In a research project in Cambridge (some parts published but not as a whole, many types of assessments undertaken - stats are enormous - EEGs etc shown at peer reviewed conferences) we found around 75% of children with reading difficulties had a significant visual component.

In a project (paper in process of completion) in Scotland it was found that around 25% of children at 8 years of age have significant visual processing problems - around 80% some. Treatment WHEN APPROPRIATE is almost 100% successful but I treat only around 75% of people I see. Evidence is growing of a neurological retraining effect when using the treatment but not conclusive as yet.

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Hi Ian and Zemanski :)

 

I have met with Sally Ann on Friday from the test she has done it seems that H may function better with green lens but it was not completly convincing, beside H when he has been trying some glasses (green) decided that he would not wear glasses that he wants to be his ownself and does not want to see his mummy green anyway, I have tried to convince him but he is getting very stupborne on the matter. :angry:

 

Sally Ann was suggesting when I called her that he may benefit from some form of osteopathy, but she will get some informations and we will discuss it again H at the moment is very ASD so takes everything very strongly I had some worries that he may not accepte the Idea very easely but I must say this is worst than expected. He even said that is he would break the glasses :wacko: as he just want to be himself....!!!

 

Any Idea welcome. :(

 

Malika.

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maybe worth borrowing a light for a month to see if he still feels the same. (a company will lend you one free - send me message and I will send you tel number)

The colour will appear to change (to no colour) when wearing specs so that you appear normal colour . The idea that he will always see you green shouldn't be a worry.

 

but

 

There are a number of factors involved in ASD that must not be ignored when changing vision in any way

 

the person may find even if the changes are for the better that they do not want to change - they are happy with how they see

the improvements in the vision can be disturbing - imagine a new way of seeing the world - it can be scary

using lenses may single a child out and they may not wish to be different

 

sometimes it is better not to change as it will disturb the person more than the improvements warrant - a very difficult decision from all parties

Hope that helps

Ian

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Malika, >:D<<'>

 

so sorry he reacted badly, Com was quite negative when he first experienced 3D with irlen but came round to the idea. He still says it was much easier before he knew it existed!

 

H is still very young and may, like Com, come to realise that the changes are useful in time - hope so.

 

When Com first had irlen lenses he was reluctant to wear them but then he realised they were more effective at cutting glare than sunglasses and began to choose to wear them in the summer.

 

It does help that Com likes to stand out from the crowd and now he's in his teens he thinks coloured lenses are cool!

 

we had very much the same reaction about being himself when the consultant decided that Com needed circumcision at about 8 - fortunately exercises worked, there was no way Com was going to cooperate with an operation!

 

Zemanski

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Hi Ian and Zemanski, :)

 

What I was thinking with H is, may be to buy him a pair of sun glasses (green tint) for summer time and see if he could get use to the idea of wearing glasses and seeing in a "different" colour :blink: ,the other thing is that he actually told me on Sunday that he is worried about pupils teasing him at school.

 

Anyway today after half term and being Monday I found him rather well with his ownself and I did not get any tantrum on our way back from school he even accepted to go to the hair dresser for an hair cut which was badly needed, and he managed for the first time in months to tell me about school without being prompted. I just hope that he is getting out of his "bad period" :tearful: and this should help a lot.

 

Next week there is the parents evening and I may get a fair idea if he is progressing or not, then will come his SEN review with a fight for a diary and to ask for our sport man to get some training about ASD :ninja:

 

Ian I am going to send you a PM watch out!

 

Thank you both for your help and support. :)

 

Malika

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Guest hallyscomet

Zemanksi

 

:notworthy::notworthy::dance::dance: this is brilliant news, what a relief for you and Com >:D<<'> >:D<<'> way to go. :groupwave:

 

H. :D

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