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Viper

Black is white!!

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My As DD 15. Has argued that black is only black cos that's what we have told her? :blink: She would argue anything.

Last night she had 10 mins knocked off her hour on MSN cos she was on for 10 mins too long. (I have 3 kids who want to go on MSN so they have an hour each.) Tonight she again stayed on over her time but argued it was b/c she started 10 mins late. We pointed out to her that she had less time but she argued the point. Eventually due to the way she kept on going we banned her from going on it at all on Wednesday b/c she goes to a youth club on Tuesday. Her argument for this was that she should have her ban tomorrow. Just b/c she isn't here shouldn't mean it is rolled over to the next day. She says she never goes on on Tuesday b/c she isn't here. We said that is her choice, she can stay home tomorrow and have her ban then or go out and have her ban on Wednesday.

 

Are you with me here? Who is right?

Why does she have to argue everything, is it her AS or her age?

 

Someone please clear the fog in my head caused by this stubborn child. :wacko:

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Hi ya Viper,

 

Your house sounds so much like ours - governed by MSN and the computer the arguments that we have had on a daily basis its just not fun i tell you :wallbash: .

 

I think (my opinion only) its a mixture of both As and a teenager, we have the same problem with my dd (NT) she also extends her hour if given half the chance Which causes huge problems because then my son has not had his time and says "she got and extra 8.5mins so i also want extra" every second counts...

 

If i could afford it i would buy 3computers for us all and then no arguments. If only!!!

 

Hope it all works out for you

Justamom

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Guest hallyscomet

Hi Viper,

 

I have two teenagers and lots of their friends have these same problems too, this is just typical teenagers and it will get worse as they just push and push to get what they want.

 

To save my mind we went out and bought another computer, then you will need a router so they can hook up to the internet at the same time.

 

All the best - I am sure every parent here sympathises with you - teenagers :lol::lol::lol:

 

Hailey

Edited by hallyscomet

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Hi Viper,

She's right in a way :lol:

Is she meaning in the way that black doesn't exist as a colour ? and what we call black (paint , cloth etc.) is actually very dark red, green, or blue ?

I remember learning this at school in physics.... bit vague as to the science bit, just that 'black' is a total absense of light..... :unsure:

HTH,

 

wac

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Waccoe, not quite what I meant. She argues that any colour could be something else, i.e. red could be blue but we have been told it's red so that's what we call it, if it had been called blue, red would be blue.

Do you understand, cos I'm not sure I do. :wacko:

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:lol::lol::lol:

This is exactly the sort of thing I would argue about at that age !

too busy these days to indulge in such arguments, have to stick to more mundane arguments about bed-time/ homework etc. :wacko:

It's not the same :(

 

wac

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viper, aaah the joys of teens! I remember giving a similar argument about the existence of Australia, I thought there was a possiblity that there was no such place and everyone who thought they'd been there had just got on a plane and been brain washed for two weeks. :P I think I really puzzled my mum for a long time over that one. I was so taken with the idea it was something I discussed in depth for a long time well in to my 20's and 30's; I suppose you could say I 'dined' on that topic for a long while.

 

Also, for what it's worth, I'm totally in agreement with yuo about the msn ban being on the night your DD is at home.

 

Lauren

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Yes, this sounds familiar! Whether it's AS or just teenage attitude or a bit of both - I don't know. I'll let you know when my NT son gets to that stage and I can compare my children! :rolleyes:

 

As a parent, it's a safe bet that one is always in the wrong. :lol:

 

K

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my son is 9 and sounds exactly the same.

will argue black is white.

argues that he only 'knows' things because we told him and we could be wrong.

won't come off computer but always has a reason for it and will argue till he's blue in the face why he couldn't come off/shouldn't lose time/shouldn't be banned!

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one aspect of autism is not understanding the emoptions that we do, however they do understand anger, and will often do anything to get a reaction from you, hence the argueing that black is white, it could be a way of getting a reaction from you. aitistic kids, and adults will shock in order to get a reaction, its not easy, but you just have to walk away when they try this form of reaction seeking behaviour :robbie:

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On colours:

 

I am convinced different people see entirely different colours: sky is yellow, grass is blue, red is all the other bits. We don't know this generally because when we point at something and say what colour it is, we still use the same verbal label for the colour. The exception is black and white which are extreme opposite shades- they are made of other colours brightened or darkened out of recognition.

 

The reason why I think people see different colours is because of my own sensory experience of colours and shades changing. I've read that babies are born colour-blind and the brain later attaches the colour labels to different frequencies of the visable light spectrum that the eyes pick up. There isn't any reason why the brain would attached completely different labels in different people seeing as the whole concept of colour is developed by the brain itself(I can't imagine how else the very concept of colours gets there).

 

Strongly disagree with Timelord. I do not have any greater insight of anger than any other emotion, nor is my understanding of emotion pre-determined to be poor. It's another myth caused by inaccurate observation of Autistic people: we do not understand other people when they talk about emotions, this is a mutual communication barrier, there is no reason to place the blame of the breakdown of communication on the Autistic.

 

Teenagers will argue, Autistic teenagers will do it in a different way. The manner in which Autistic teenagers do it often excludes the notion that they are doing it to push emotional buttons, emotive appeals tend to be in short supply.

 

Viper, I for one did not understand your arguement but I did understand your daughter's. I'll say it again: the Autistic version of events is always going to be the most accurate except when contradicted by another Autistic or features mythical creatures. Unless they are Dwarves, Giants or Norse gods which ARE real.

 

Another interesting subject to argue:

 

What happens when The Unstoppable Force hits The Unmovable Object?

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What happens when The Unstoppable Force hits The Unmovable Object?

 

I can answer that question Lucas.

 

My house descends into another screaming match. My AS DD being the unstoppable force and my Husband (suspected AS) the immoveable object.

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as for lack of understanding of autism. our eldest has aspergers, our youngest dyspraxia, both autistic spectrum disorders. our eldes had know conception of emotion, except for one, anger, hence he often did things just to get a violent reaction.

 

as for hearing colours and seeing sounds, its a condition called syaesthesia

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I'm really not quite sure what your point is Timelord, I don't follow it. And if you have any evidence that Autism causes a deficit in understanding emotions I would like to see it because what you think you see in people you know is nearly always going to be ancedotal.

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so are you saying that for the last 27 years we have totally mis - understood our aspergers son, who by the way was diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia 4 years ago, and was sectioned accordingly. does this then mean that there is nothing wrong with our son, and we are in the wrong

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Our daughter can be violent and aggressive sometimes it is attention seeking just like any other child who is annoyed but sometimes it is certainly not ot get an response from us it is just the ways she copes and sees the world. It makes life really hard for all of the family when these uncontrolled meltdowns happen and we do still walk away or send her for time out but she has never learnt not to behave this way because of the wya we respond. Our younger daughter pushes everyones buttons and tries it on but is slowly learning the boundaries to 'socially acceptable' behaviour.

 

Timelord you sound like you have had a really hard time with your son and whilst I can try to empathise with what you have been through I can't truley know. It seems to me that like all of us you have tried you best for your family and that is all we can do.

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Time lord so sorry to hear of your sons problems.I do hope things are better for you all soon.

 

I often think I understand my son,I certainly try to but I will say this,something I think is a problem for him isn't as I see it and he will see it totally different.

I don't think anyone can fully understand what goes on in anothers head ,autistic or not.

 

Although I do try to understand as much as I can.

 

Viper, my son sounds very much like your daughter .Having 3 teens the youngest being AS, I would say its teen related but having AS means taking things one step futher!

 

Theresa

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I too am sorry to hear of those problems but I would thank you if you would stop trying to put words into my mouth or read in meanings that aren't there in what I do say. I don't respond to emotive outbursts and I asked for evidence that Autism causes deficits in understanding emotion- a long standing but debunked myth. You instead made another emotive outburst.

 

I can catagorically reject your assertion that your son has trouble understanding emotions because of Autism, first of all you have not proven yourself to be a mind-reading telepath therefore cannot know more than anyone else what is literally going on in someone else's head. Second, I have not been making any attacks yet you seem to be defensieve, my requests for information have been brushed aside. If you do this with your son too, I expect there will be much difficulty.

 

How long has your son been diagnosed with Asperger's Syndrome? The diagnosis did not exist outside of a very small circle of people until 1994, your son is 27 now so he was likely diagnosed after the age of 15. Like most Asperger Autistics he's gone most of his life without an explaination his troubles, so to answer your question: he will certainly have been very misunderstood for the first 15 years before that as all are- it's how it leads to diagnosis.

 

He was diagnosed paranoid schizophrenic, which does have an influence in impairing a person's ability to recognise emotions, even their own. Yet you still advised someone else here based on your experience with your son, assuming that Autism was the common cause in stunted empathy. This is incredibly unethical and if you were a professional working with such people you would be struck off, instead you're an anonymous stranger. For your information: a diagnosis of Schizophrenia precludes a diagnosis of Autism- you can't accurately determine if a person is Autistic or Schizophrenic if their developmental history determines the other.

 

You can get support at these forums, it's what they're there for. But leave your erratic and manipulative ego outside.

Edited by Lucas

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Timelord,

When I say that kids with AS take it one step futher ,I mean that in the way that they are mostly right in their statements( or feel that they are) and will try to prove it. At least this is my take on it and in situations when my son is like this ,I have often found myself coming round to his way of thinking or at least agreeing to disagree.

I would disagree that autistic kids or adults would shock to get a reaction. I would go so far as to say that my son struggles when he gets angry and trys to control the anger but is often too stressed to do so ( it is usually stress that is the cause of the anger). I take a step back if he wants me to but will try not to walk away when he is like this, but be there for him and try to understand. I will usually ask him if he wants me to leave him alone before actually walking away.

 

You said your eldest had no concept of emotion except for anger and did things to get a violent reaction.Could you clarify what you mean by 'violent reaction', and why you think he was doing it purposely

Edited by asereht

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my experience and understanding of aspergers sufferers is that they have difficulty empathising with others emotional feelings, thus are unable to react in a conventional way, especialy in a social setting. in our sons case this led to extreme behaviour, in order to get a rection he could empathise with. i.e anger. hence the reason he was expelled from school (masturbating in class), hence telling his grandmother that his mother and uncle had an incestious relationship, and he was a result of that relationship. hence his mother waking up in bed, on more than one occassin, with our son standing over her, clutching a kitchen knife. it was his way of getting a reaction. as for autistic/ aspergers tendencies, i have had experience working with several as sufferers and no 2 showed the same text book tendencies, but like i always say, they probably have never read the text books.

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That doesn't sound unusual, but I will always object to any statement to the effect of 'this person does this because they are Autistic'. It is like saying boats float without mentioning the water involved, giving the impression to those who don't know better that boats sail through the air.

 

This simply sounds to me like a person who was failed by many people(I'm not saying you because I don't know enough in this case). There has never been a study proving or even providing good evidence that Autistics have a deficit in empathising. The perception is developed from a lack of mutual reciprocity in communication and the Autistic individual is always blamed for this.

 

Please don't give up on your son- the diagnosis for Aspergers/Autism is incompatible with any diagnosis of Schizophrenia as is clearly stated in the DSM. Someone really has been screwing it up for him.

 

Also, when it comes to Autistic people doing things just for the sake of getting a reaction: does not happen. Whilst I may disagree with conclusions, evidence is inarguable- I don't believe in Prof Simon Baron-Cohen's conclusions that Autistics lack Theory of Mind but much of the data he has gathered to support it pretty much removes the possibility of action for the sake of reaction(which also debunked behaviourist Ivor Lovaas' theories on self-stimulation in Autistics). It's why Sociopathy can be very much described as the opposite of Autism.

 

To sum up, there is a lot you have said that is two-dimensional and not forth-coming with information. People cannot rely on ancedotal accounts for accurate information about Autism. You say what your son has done and why you think he has done it, but not how you came to that conclusion save for 'in my experience' ancedotes which plague the field of Autism and have contributed to a wealth of ignorance and fear of Autistic people which has harmed us.

 

In my experience, non-Autistic people are manipulative, deceptive, superficial, loud, hypocritical, irrational, dishonourable, self-indulgant, presumptious and impatient. I also know I am completely wrong about that.

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all we have had to go on is experience, and advive from professor davidson at dr grays hospital elgin, and her reccommendation that we read lorna wings books. we are also memebers of nas, and nsf, our son is now in aberdeen at a satelite unit of the hospital, he has now aquired a 1 bedroom flat, and with the elp of jigsaw in aberdeen will be moving into his new home shortly, they will set up a care package, and monitor his self medication. that is why we are leaving shetland, and moving down to aberdeen

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Lorna Wing is a very good source and I have immense respect for her. Unusual in Autism research, she has admitted she was wrong about previous strong-held beliefs about Autism. The most notable for me was the existence of the AS diagnosis- there is no REAL difference between Asperger's Syndrome and Kanner Autism: Asperger and Kanner worked with a group of patients which can be accurately described as the same group. Second, the non-existence of a linear spectrum portraying a scale of mild/severe symptoms which allowed for the perception to be imprinted that the more 'mild' a person was, the less Autistic they were. It possibly set back Autism research by decades(assuming progress means working towards understanding and not elimination) and contributed to it being de-railed(putting elimination above understanding because understanding Autism would no longer be neccessary if it was eliminated).

 

I am actually having trouble finding the direct quotes for these for reference, though I know for definite that Wing has made them clear on repeated occasions. If anyone has a weblink that would be very useful for me.

 

I suppose what I meant when I said information was lacking was that the only explaination you have given as to why your son has done the things you've described go:

 

Premise 1- He cannot understand emotions.

 

Premise 2- He cannot empathise with emotions he doesn't understand.

 

Premise 3- He cannot understand emotions because he is Autistic/AS.

 

Inference 1- He wants to empathise(Contradicted by SBC's evidence on Theory of Mind in Autistics; more than half the meaning in the definition of 'empathy' is emotive and escapes literal interpretation so an Autistic cannot give a uniform explaination as to why they would want to empathise).

 

Inference 2- He empathises by provoking the only reaction he can understand, which is anger(no explaination to why it is anger in particular. If this was true, then the reactions Autistic people would seek to provoke would be random and specific to each individual).

 

Inference 3- He does this because he's Autistic.

 

Conclusion- Because son is Autistic, he is violent and abusive.

 

Many people experience Autistics like this. I've had many people describe me like this, but always they are describing floating boats in absence of the water that causes it. Your son has done the things you described for a reason or reasons and they are certainly not the ones you have inferred, wether it's Aspergers or Schizophrenia that affects him. There is a common perception of all mentally-disabled people: they do random things for random reasons, because the reasons are random and the person themselves can't understand them, the reasons should be ignored. Very few people actually ask mentally-disabled people what those reasons are or take account of the difficulties that would prevent an individual accurately describing their reasons. Most mentally-disabled people regardless of their diagnosis get tired of constantly trying to justify themselves and soon learn that their efforts don't matter anyway.

 

Many of the most 'severely' affected Autistic children have functional speech by their teens, only to lose them in adulthood. That isn't a random thing happening for random reasons, the real reason is all too clear most of the time.

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one aspect of autism is not understanding the emoptions that we do, however they do understand anger, and will often do anything to get a reaction from you, hence the argueing that black is white, it could be a way of getting a reaction from you. aitistic kids, and adults will shock in order to get a reaction, its not easy, but you just have to walk away when they try this form of reaction seeking behaviour :robbie:

 

 

my experience and understanding of aspergers sufferers is that they have difficulty empathising with others emotional feelings, thus are unable to react in a conventional way, especialy in a social setting. in our sons case this led to extreme behaviour, in order to get a rection he could empathise with. i.e anger. hence the reason he was expelled from school (masturbating in class), hence telling his grandmother that his mother and uncle had an incestious relationship, and he was a result of that relationship. hence his mother waking up in bed, on more than one occassin, with our son standing over her, clutching a kitchen knife. it was his way of getting a reaction. as for autistic/ aspergers tendencies, i have had experience working with several as sufferers and no 2 showed the same text book tendencies, but like i always say, they probably have never read the text books.

 

 

As you say in your sons case you feel he did what he did to get a reaction and you may be right you know your son best but that doesn't mean he did this because he has aspergers.

You yourself said no two people with aspergers/autism have the same tendencies, but you seem to contradict this statement in your first post, above.

 

I am glad things seem to be working well for your son now and I am sure you are doing your very best for him.

Theresa

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