Immaturity

[Tylers-mum]

My sister says that I need to start toughening up my son (6, HFA) b/c he behaves very immaturely for his age and as he gets older, he'll be more prone to bullying etc b/c this is a rough neighbourhood we live in.

 

How on earth do you toughen up an ASD child??? I always thought it was down to his HFA. Is that true or is it my parenting that making him immature? (I personally don't think it's parenting).

 

Just wanted to ask all you experts as I'm at a lost on this one. <'>

 

PS - He'll be 7 in a few weeks.

Edited March 29, 2006 by Tylers-mum

[Zemanski]

ASC children have a developmental delay in the area of social and emotional communication, it stands to reason that they are immature in some ways, generally socially and emotionally. If you try to toughen an AS child up you increase the pressure to conform, not very constructive, and increase the chances of a tendency to release pressure aggressively, as the propensity for this increases into the teens that's not a good idea either.

 

There is a general consensus among professionals that people with AS take much longer to go through developmental stages so that their teen problems, for example, probably start a bit later but go on for a lot longer, often they are into the late twenties before they seem to come through adolescence and 'grow up'.

Trying to push them faster than they are able to go just makes it harder for everyone. We need to go easy on our kids, encourage them to play longer and at younger levels and protect them when they are vulnerable, in the end they can and do mature into wonderful adults, it just takes a bit longer.

 

just my take on things

 

Zemanski

[zaman]

I have recently come to realise that I baby my 5 year old son, and it isn't doing him any good. I think that because I have been working so hard over the past year to head off melt downs, I have been pandering to him too much and need to start getting a bit tougher (although I have no idea how to find the balance!).

 

So no help at all to you really!

[Tez]

I agree with Zemanski. I have always been told that generally speaking a child with an ASD is at least a couple of years behind their peers in terms of emotional and social development and that this needs to be accepted by all parties involved with the child. At 6/7 he's still very young even by NT standards.

 

I can see your sister's viewpoint regarding bullying but as Zemanski has said the answer is careful supervision to protect him whilst he's vulnerable not a toughening up process. Having said that we do, of course, have to help them learn the skills they need to be independent and safe in life but making him toughen up to cope with a rough environment is not the answer. Just my opinion.

[Flora]

Last year I went to a conference and heard Wendy Lawson do a talk. She said that when raising kids with ASD you should take up to 4 years off their developmental age which will help you put things into perspective. Both of my boy's are extremely immature. William particularly who will be a teenager in November is more like a 10 year old. This isn't his or my fault.

 

TM, you are doing a grand job. If other people don't understand ASD then that's their problem and shouldn't be yours.

 

Lauren

[Brook]

Hi,

 

I also agree about the development side of things, but also know it is very difficult finding the right

balance.

 

When my son was in school the ASD team used to help with social skills lessons, these lessons were

obviously geared toward things like, turn taking, waiting, praising others etc.. etc...

I thought at the time that whilst this is very good to learn these skills, they did not include the situations

where people are not so nice! and as we all know that we run into people we dont get along with,

or a not so nice situation. I think it's important to know how to deal with these situations also.

 

Whilst I too protect my son as much as possible, I do wonder if I'm doing him any favours, but then

again the development side of things very much need to be taken into account.

 

I have started to do stories with my son, things like, Peter is on the swing and Jack is pulling him off

because he wants a go, and what should Peter do. I know that these are just basics and I dont know

if my son would be able to use the strategies in real situations. My son is very immature, this really

shows when he is with kids the same age, this really needs to be remembered.

 

He is never going to be like the 'street wise' kids, and this is one of my biggest fears for when he

gets to the age of going outside to play, he has already been asking, and at the moment I can get

away with 'your not old enough yet', but I know he wont be so accepting of this reason in a couple of

years. I know for certain they would have a field day with him.

 

This really is a tough one!! I hope someone with an ASD will post on this thread, as I am very interested

to hear how they deal with it, and their experiences.

 

Brook

Edited March 29, 2006 by Brook

[mossgrove]

Or eldest son is 8 (Aspergers) but acording to the CAMHS psychologist his emotional development is similar to that of a 3 year old, and I can see what she meand in terms of his reactions to setbacks, deficits in empathy etc. This is nothing to do with Intellelectual development where he functions at the level of most 10 year olds.

 

Anyone who thinks you can deal with this by 'toughening him up' is talking out of their *rse.

This is not the same thing as saying he does not need to be challenged when appropriate, but it is an unfortunate fact about children with Autism that they will always be more prone to bulling and being 'led' than other childre their age because there are deficits in social end emotional development when compared to their peer group. It is one of the reasons that Autistic children often relate better to Adults or children who are much older or mouch younger as the 'competetive' element is missing from the interactions.

 

 

Simon

[justamom]

I was told the same thing by a friend, "toughen him up" - I said what for he is who he is and i cant and dont want to change him. I have been told in the past to cut the apron strings which is hard to do and I have backed off alot.

 

He is very immature for his age - like the hair cutting incident most kids of about 5/6 do things like that and he is 12.

[oracle]

Anyone who thinks you can deal with this by 'toughening him up' is talking out of their *rse.

 

Bravo Simon - well said.

 

I don't 'baby' either of mine but I do understand that I am not dealing with your bog standard 9 or 18 year old. David may well be 18 but he is probably batting in the same game as a 12 year old on a bad day and a 15 year old on a good day. No matter how tough I get with him I wont be able to change that - and nor should I try. You can't beat a developmental delay out of em with a big stick.

 

Neither of mine are street wise and that's not because I baby them but because I know that they would be eaten alive if I just let them out to practice their street wise skills. What I do do is to make them aware that there are people out there who do take advantage and could well be less than nice to them. My 18 year old has worked this one out for himself and has no inclination to be like any of the lads who hang around where we live - thank goodness.

 

My motto has been for sometime now 'Everything comes to she who waits' My two do hit the milestones but not always at the time which is expected of them. But given time they do get there at the end of the day and why should I try and force the pace?

 

Carole

[karin]

hi tylers-mum i was told the same thing bout the twins the psychiatrist said they were socially immature but did not have enough aspies in them to warrant a diagnosis,we have had lots of trouble at school with bullying happening to both of them,i have told them to hit back but the school policy in our school is strange if a child hits another the second child is told off but not the first child told the headmaster what he could do with that policy my children have been told if a child hits you hit them back as every time this happened to the twins the child they hit called them a grass this then stopped them from telling so now i say well just hit them back me an hubby will stand by them no matter what.I can see the psychiatrists point of view twin1 acts younger than his little brother at times for instance last nite he had a screaming fit for 20mins because someone took his yougurts and ate them, at times the youngest 7 acts more grown up than the twins who will be 10 in november,i know how you feel its hard for them at times and you wish they would act more mature but such is the nature of their condition keep smilin luv karin

[Suze]

Simon and Carole have hit the nail on the head, and put it very well(better than me).My son is very immature in some of his behaviours, his 7yr old sister even shakes her head at him now.He has no idea what is cool, and savvy,and is completely at the mercy of his peer group at school sometimes.I have no plans to toughen him up, he never plays out with kids and only goes to a few friends houses.In a lot of ways though he is more mature than his peers.

[ceecee]

From articles I have read I too have heard that some children on the spectrum are often immature for their age.I think some catch up in the end though but they can be in that late twentys early thirties before they do so.

 

So yes I agree with what everyone else has said it is not about toughening him up.Hope this helps

Edited March 29, 2006 by ceecee

[Tylers-mum]

Thanks ever so much for all your replies. I tried replying earlier but having done the house cleaning (and the PC cleaning), I accidently hit a button on the keyboard which wouldn't let me type and as it's a new keyboard, I didn't know which button I accidently pressed sooo, had to uninstall the software and install it all over again. That seems to have done the trick! LOL

 

I so wish I remembered this when my sister yet again came out with smart allick remarks. I just go blank and then clip myself over the head when I realise. Thanks for everyone who has responded and drummed it into me that I am right and she is wrong. My son is not streetwise and TBH, neither do I want him to be. I do not wrap him up with cotton wool and neither do I moddy coddle him. He is who he is and a wonderful little boy without me trying to turn him into something he isn't. I agree that it is b/c of their developmental issues (S & E) that he is HFA and that in turn, is who he is.

I just wish I could remember these things when my sister comes out with her 'uneducated' remarks!!!

 

Once again, Thank You all! <'>

[jb1964]

Hi,

 

For us my daughters 'immaturity' has definitely become more obvious the older she gets (she's 12). When she was younger (probably up until around the age of about 8yrs or even at a push 10yrs) there were quite a few children in her class that were similar - they weren't worldly-wise and clued up - so she didn't stand out too much in that area - and to be honest I used to be glad that she wasn't 'mature' like some of the kids in her class.

 

However, from about 11yrs - when they move to Comp and all the other kids become much more socially aware and streetwise - it stands out more. I'd imagine that 'toughening up' my daughter by throwing her really in the deep end of situations that she doesn't understand would cause more anxieties.

 

Sometimes what appears to others to be my daughter's immaturity is more of 'naivety' and this is something which I have tried to explain to her as she takes what people say/or what she reads at face value.

 

As Zemanski has said, I was also under the impression that they just take longer to 'mature' than other kids and will eventually get there.

 

Jb

[Label]

[i think defining maturity is difficult,

 

To say that people mature later in life, well need to clarify exactly what you mean by that. A child that grows up - almost providing the emotional comfort and stability for their parents may mature faster in one area but will run the risk on missing out on others.

 

Someone here on this link said something about people maturing later on in their 20's or 30's again, really need to understand it. Certainly life events or incidents can make you grow up or gain a better realisation on your personal situation. Could you explain to me why AS would make you mature round this age? I thought everyone on the spectrum presented differently wth different needs, I not sure how they could all suddenly 'mature' at the same age, likewise by that reasoning I am not convinced that people on the spectrum are always immature.

 

I would certainly like to read the article they mention, would certainly give me a better understanding.

Edited March 29, 2006 by Label

[Kathryn]

Hi Label,

 

I see this is only your 4th post, welcome to the forum.

 

You've obviously thought a bit about this. What is your interest in AS - are you speaking as a parent?

 

I think my daughter who is now 17 has definitely lagged behind a bit in her development in all sorts of ways - her social maturity certainly doesn't match her intellect. I try to imagine what she'll be like in 10 years time but I can't picture it!

 

Kathryn.

Edited March 29, 2006 by Kathryn

[ceecee]

jb1964

 

I think your right many do catch up eventually and like you say just take longer to get there.

[Canopus]

I think some people with AS retain an immature streak all their life. I still play with toys, watch cartoons, and find certain things funny that really shouldn't be for an adult such as things to do with toilets or staining settees. My younger NT brother thinks I am immature at times.

[hollymg]

I wonder if the problem isn't really the other children being immature...I say that because watching my son, he can be perfectly fine in a room full of adults and my mother takes him to her ladies' luncheons all the time and he is charming. But with other kids his age, yep, he is out of the loop.

 

Hmmm.

[Richt]

My take on it, for what it's worth.

 

I am aware I think differently to my peers, always have. Trying to toughen up anyone is a recipe for disaster, they probably know they're different anyway, that causes upset, so why make them feel bad?

 

In my experience, children present to adults they are comfortable with, in ways that they wouldn't with their peers - unless they're very confident. My 11 yr old NT son often sits on my knee in the evening before bed, or if he feels worried. This is normal. My eldest boy, also NT and now grown up with a family of his own once told me he liked being hugged (when he was 11 or 12) but was worried about showing affection in public because it wasn't "cool" and his friends would think he was a baby - standing back, I think he was spot on, but he didn't have the experience to realise that his friends were also possibly jealous. Now he is older, he still gives me a hug and doesn't bother who sees, he's my son, knows who he is, and knows who I am.

 

As parents we need to be sensitive of a child's development stages, it's easy really, let them lead, but keep them aware that what you can offer is always there. I was working with a friend's 14 yr old son today, (NT but different because he is home schooled and this is part of his work experience) When he cut his hand, he came to me for support, to be looked after, because he trusts me. He could be himself in front of me, because we know each other, and have done since he was small. He wanted me to put the plaster on, if he'd wanted a hug, I wouldn't have been worried but holding his hand was the closest he wanted to be in front of the other guys at work.

 

Later, we were finishing a job and he had a mini strop - didn't have the skills to take the shortcuts I was, so his work was boring and repetative, soon got over it - such is life.

 

Rambled a bit, but the message is, we're all people and all try to do the same things - be loved, survive the shopping trip, keep face and preserve the thought we are "special"

[Canopus]

Some people had difficulty understanding me when I was a young teenager. One minute I would behave in an immature way, next minute I would be talking technical about computers.

[Zemanski]

everyone matures at different rates and in different aspects of their development; AS kids often seem overly mature when they are little, especially if they have precocious and pedantic language development, and that can continue within some environments and not in others.

 

Com can discuss the ins and outs of theory of mind, weak central coherence, neurological cluster conditions and hold his own with university science and maths students at 13.

 

However, he can't apply theory of mind to real life for a toffee and still sucks his thumb constantly and plays with his brio train track and his marble run, socially he's about 5 or 6 and that's being quite generous.

 

As for catching up, some people probably never really do in some ways but social expectations become less complex and more stable as people move into their later twenties and thirties which gives people with difficulties in those sort of skills a chance to settle - it becomes a little less difficult to fit in, perhaps?

 

The idea of this being a precise time for all AS people to mature is a bit far fetched, I specifically use words like 'often' and 'sometimes' because it isn't ever the same for any two people, never mind 2 AS people - the timescale given by Ceecee is actually a span of 20 years, quite a lot of space for variation on a theme, I would think.

 

Zemanski

[Mother in Need]

I ditto many things that have been said, my son AS 12 is very immature, I would say about 5-9 years behind depending on his mood and the situation. And yet, he can discuss theories of the universe and God knows what, with a former Scientific Advisor to the Queen, AND stretch this guy, it's unbelievable. He seems mature with adults, but can't cope with his peers, and still plays baby games; his brother NT 9 often shakes his head also, and is in many ways miles ahead of him. When things don't go exactly the way he wants them to...........he is like a terrible-two-toddler for quite some time.

[Canopus]

My SEN residential school expected the kids to have a high level of social maturity almost to the point of Victorian etiquette and manners but for some reason tolerated bullying. The following were considered unacceptable behaviour and would often result in sanctions:

 

1. Having a juvenile sense of humour like finding things to do with toilets funny.

 

2. Watching cartoons or children's TV programmes.

 

3. Playing with toys including educational toys, puzzles, and executive toys.

 

4. Playing computer games including Gameboys and arcade machines during school trips.

 

5. Using a skateboard, roller skates, or a BMX on school grounds.

 

6. Making strange noises or having nervous twitch type habits. I'm sure a few kids had undiagnosed Tourette's syndrome.

 

7. Strange food and drink combinations.

[Tylers-mum]

My SEN residential school expected the kids to have a high level of social maturity almost to the point of Victorian etiquette and manners but for some reason tolerated bullying. The following were considered unacceptable behaviour and would often result in sanctions:

 

1. Having a juvenile sense of humour like finding things to do with toilets funny.

 

2. Watching cartoons or children's TV programmes.

 

3. Playing with toys including educational toys, puzzles, and executive toys.

 

4. Playing computer games including Gameboys and arcade machines during school trips.

 

5. Using a skateboard, roller skates, or a BMX on school grounds.

 

6. Making strange noises or having nervous twitch type habits. I'm sure a few kids had undiagnosed Tourette's syndrome.

 

7. Strange food and drink combinations.

 

Nice school - Not!!

 

PLEASE don't tell me that was an ASD specialist school???

[Paula]

My As son is 12 i personally dont think "Maturity" is the correct word.

 

I think the word looseing there innocence is more appropraite.

 

My Nt daughter was very steet wise and aware of stuff at 7 year old she now 14 where as my As son still at 12 puts a carrot out for rudolf at xmas,thinks the tooth fairy still exists and is very very innocent of the horridnous of the world and people.This means hes vulnerable.Very vulnerable.

 

Does this class as being immature i dont know.

 

Hes just my son.And i love him

 

Lets face it how bloomeing mature do you expect a 6/7 year old to be its called being a child some sections of society dont allow that to happen any more.

Edited March 30, 2006 by Paula

[jb1964]

My As son is 12 i personally dont think "Maturity" is the correct word.

 

I think the word looseing there innocence is more appropraite.

 

My Nt daughter was very steet wise and aware of stuff at 7 year old she now 14 where as my As son still at 12 puts a carrot out for rudolf at xmas,thinks the tooth fairy still exists and is very very innocent of the horridnous of the world and people.This means hes vulnerable.Very vulnerable.

 

Does this class as being immature i dont know.

 

Hes just my son.And i love him

 

Lets face it how bloomeing mature do you expect a 6/7 year old to be its called being a child some sections of society dont allow that to happen any more.

 

I also think that very often people mistake my daughters immaturity for naivety - and often throughout her life I have been extremely grateful that she's had this 'innocence' and behaved more like a child and not a street-wise young adult.

 

The major problem I have is getting her to be aware that there are people who lie, who harm and that not all people see the world as she does, that sometimes what people say and what people mean or do can be two totally different things.

 

Jb

[Zemanski]

I personally think all kids are asked to grow up and lose their innocence too fast, I think it has a lot to do with behaviour problems in NT kids. Pushing kids into school at 4 when they still have so much to learn from pure play, expecting them to sit down and concentrate before their minds and bodies are ready for it, expecting them never to put a foot wrong and to always be on their best behaviour, keeping them in when they should be exploring the world without adults looking over their shoulders and annalysing every move they make, it all adds up to a pretty sterile world for many kids, no wonder so many of them rebel as soon as they get an opportunity.

 

And then we try to keep them children longer than ever before in history - kids were working or apprenticed by 14 only 50 years ago, it's not so long since children were sent to war at 12 and girls were often married by that age, in Jane Austen's day by 14-16 you were considered to be at considerable risk of ending up as spinster if you weren't at least engaged. I'm not saying that was good but it illustrates just how much attitudes to children and young people have changed in a relatively short space of time.

 

The world is very different these days, and many of the changes might be good but there are an awful lot that aren't healthy for children generally, never mind those with ASCs

 

Zemanski

[Canopus]

PLEASE don't tell me that was an ASD specialist school???

 

It was an EBD specialist school run along similar lines to a public school such as Eton by a headmaster with a very conservative and traditionalist outlook. The school was officially a secondary school with a 6th form but took kids aged from 10 to 19. The youngest kid during my time was 10 year old in Y5.

[Zemanski]

Don't worry, it's closed now

[Canopus]

I personally think all kids are asked to grow up and lose their innocence too fast, I think it has a lot to do with behaviour problems in NT kids. Pushing kids into school at 4 when they still have so much to learn from pure play, expecting them to sit down and concentrate before their minds and bodies are ready for it, expecting them never to put a foot wrong and to always be on their best behaviour, keeping them in when they should be exploring the world without adults looking over their shoulders and annalysing every move they make, it all adds up to a pretty sterile world for many kids, no wonder so many of them rebel as soon as they get an opportunity.

 

A few years ago I read about kids growing up too fast and partially blamed it on television. The author claimed that there was a lack of quality TV programmes aimed at the 8 to 14 age group and that most children's programmes were designed for a younger audience. I no longer watch children's programmes but I have a feeling that the 8 to 14 age group was better catered for in the 1980s and early 90s. The author also stated that kids are increasingly preferring adult programmes, especially soaps, to children's programmes.

 

I have noticed that the CBBC website makes references to Eastenders despite it being neither a CBBC nor a children's programme.