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Memories of the Durham mum Helen Rogan and her son came flooding back to me, they died in exactly the same way :( How many more have to reach such a crisis like this before the right help is made universally available? When will they realise the pressure that carers face? When will they realise that people with Autism need support and the right education for them to learn how to cope in this world of ours? When will they realise that a holistic approach is desperately needed, for Autistic people AND their carers to cope?

 

So tragic, so awful, and so PREVENTABLE. So many 'if onlys.....' :( I don't blame the child, or the mum, or autism or depression, it was the sum total of it all together with the lack of support and care which caused this. There is always a sequence of events which will lead to this sort of situation. There are always warning signs, but I bet nobody is held accountable for taking no notice.

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There has been yet another article in the Daily Mail about this today, this time showing more CCTV footage.

 

Whilst every effort has been made to show the mother was struggling and that she had little support, there has been absolutely no affirmation that her son was a Human. Every mention of the lack of support is weighted against the reaffirmation that the boy had Fragile X 'which shares common behavioural elements with autism'. It's said that the boy was cheeful and happy 'but suffered from Fragile X' as if this somehow meant that what good was there didn't matter because he had Fragile X.

 

Her body is yet to be found. I personally have a *small* notion that she *may* yet be found alive, staying at a friend's house and deciding wether or not to reveal she's alive. She is more likely dead like the boy, but if she was alive she would have no fear of prosecution for his murder because he is very much being portrayed as a half-life.

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She is more likely dead like the boy, but if she was alive she would have no fear of prosecution for his murder because he is very much being portrayed as a half-life.

 

The whole story is very tragic. I'm sure if alive she still would be prosecuted probably for manslaughter under diminshed responsibiity rather than murder. Similar cases in the past have led to prosecutions. The decision though would be made based upon her mental state and degree of mental capacity rather than to denigrate the worth of her child.

 

Lx

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The same consideration taken of her mental state is not given to any Autistic convicted of any crime. Any judgement made about her mental state involves speculating as to the causes of her mental state, ie: the burden the child is on her. I've seen it all before and the number of cases where a carer murders an Autistic and is freed far outnumbers the cases where they are treated the same way as any other murderer.

 

I am actually quite glad I've grown up and am bigger than my mother now for the reason that she had no deterrent to killing me because she worked in social services and had seen parents murder their disabled children and get away with it by emphasising the burden that child was. If she had ever been sufficiently pushed to the limit I certainly do not trust her moral development to protect me from her errational impulses.

 

There was a cr*p book a few years back titled The United States of Leyland where the author wanted the main character to be a murderer but one that readers could sympathise with, so the person he murdered was an Autistic that he was putting out of their misery. He was doing it for their own good, a rationale that underlines nearly every murder of an Autistic person. Gladly, this book was so rubbish no one ever heard of it. But if a very popular book had a similiar theme then readers would of course have no sympathy for the victim and all compassion for the killer. The media covering Autism is saturated with this message.

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Lucas I do not know your mother and so can not comment on the comments that you have made about her. However as much as I can understand your point within this terrible tragedy I do not like the implication that you are making that many of us parents would or could be capable of murdering our children.

 

Rightly or wrongly as parents it is up to us to bring up our children to the best of our ability. Mostly we do this without any help. Do you think that the State would do a better job of if? Because I dread to think how the state would deal with our children. I have found that many adults with Autism have a very low opinion of their parents and this makes me very sad because the majority of us bust a gut on a daily basis for our children. I know I do myself and I never expect any thanks or praise from either of them. At the moment they both appear to understand that I do my best and use whatever I have left inside of me to give to them.

 

Having just ran all of this past David now 18 and adult, he says that there are times when he could quite happily swing for me but he has never once felt that I would or could ever be capable of hurting him.

 

Thanks David I needed that reminder :wub:

 

Oracle

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Oracle, I have read comments on this forum from parents stating that they can't even pretend that they could never be driven to the same actions in relation to a parent murdering their Autistic child. I am not making the implication but responding to an implication already made by parents themselves.

 

I do not think the state is an adequate substitute for a proper parent and have not said anything to this effect, so I have absolutely no understanding as to why you would respond as if I did.

 

I can't comment on your personal circumstances but I can agree with you that many Autistic adults hold their parents in low esteem. My own mother never shuts up about what she does for me whilst constantly going through a list of my faults. If I answer back how she has made things worse for me she threatens to throw me out the only home I've ever known while I am still unable to fend for myself. She has considerably more services for herself as a carer available to her than I do as a disabled person, she chooses not to do the chasing for them. She has no consideration for the fact that the system is geared towards making Autistic people utterly dependent on their parents because the level of services they get is tied to what the parents chase for themselves. My mother creates her own suffering and blames me. Even here on this very progressive forum parents often have to talk of how horrible their children are and I try to stay clear of those threads because once I've read the OP I will find it difficult not to post.

 

Yesturday I had to listen to my mother talking with my PA from Connections, she was a learning disability PA and my mom wanted feedback from how things were going because she couldn't get answers from me due to her vague generalised questions and aggressive tone. I had to listen to my mom talk about how awful I am just as parents here talk about how awful their children are. I've never met anyone here personally but I do sometimes wonder if their children know how they talk about them like I know how my mom speaks of me.

 

You haven't told me much of what David said to you, but I still find it contradictory. There have been times when he has considered hitting you yet he knows you would never hurt him- then he's been having violent impulses for no reason whatsoever. You don't think about assaulting someone who hasn't done anything to hurt you, it's living in the comfort zone of mental disability which asserts that we do randoms things for randoms reasons of no importance, so stopping to consider those reasons is a waste of time.

 

I've never hit my mother but have come very close and she knows it. I have done this because I have been hurt by her. Her interpretation of it of course is that I've been aggressive for no reason at all and she will constantly tell me until I believe it. I have no right to reply unless I repeat her version.

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I do not think that I have been contradictory at all. David is fully aware that he has very high levels of aggression and he works on them all of the time, because he fully understands that his aggression is not acceptable. David would be the first to tell you that he can flip if I have simply forgotten to switch off an electrical socket, which no longer holds a plug. This is a MASSIVE issue to David but does not bother me that much. I do try but sadly I often forget. David will also be the first to tell me what it is that I, or anyone else in the house for that matter, has done to wind him up. He understands himself that he has a very short fuse which is easily lit. No matter how hard we try we are all only human and can trigger an outburst of aggression without any malicious intent what-so-ever. At the time of the outburst David is unable to rationalise about anything but often afterwards he will come to me himself and tell me that he was out of order. Now that is not because he is Autistic it's because we are red hot in this house on shared meanings and understandings of each other and how we tick. I make no excuses for being different to David and Matthew and that try as I might to understand them often I fail.

 

I do get stressed because my lack of understanding and 'my' need to do somethings the way 'I' like and not the way that 'they' need to have them done often drives me insane. But I never blame them or there autism. I don't blame myself either because I do the best that I can. And yes I have felt on occassion that I would like to 'jump' but never with the two boys - and then I wonder who would look after them then.

 

As parents we are often dammed if we do and damned if we don't so sorry I think we are often in a no win situation.

 

I think that it is very hard on a forum where we have parents - who must be allowed to express themselves and how it feels for them - and adults with Autism - who we must remember can often be upset by our comments. But I also believe it is crucial that we do co-exist side by side because that after all is the way of the world.

 

Oracle

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You don't think about assaulting someone who hasn't done anything to hurt you, it's living in the comfort zone of mental disability which asserts that we do randoms things for randoms reasons of no importance, so stopping to consider those reasons is a waste of time.

 

Lucas, I always read your replies on this forum as I find your views very interesting and often right. I do however have issue with you statement that I have copied above.

 

My son is 5 1/2 and often attacks me for no reason. An example of this happened a few days ago. He was playing on the floor near mine and my DD's feet, he accidentally hurt my DD's foot with a transformer, I said to him "Be careful Ben you hurt J's foot" he then slammed the toy down on my foot and shouted "shut up stupid"

 

I did not raise my voice to him just calmly asked him to be careful. This sort of thing happens all the time with Ben so I am very careful how I word things. He is often violent towards me and his sisters for things as simple as us not hearing him and asking him to repeat what he has said.

 

I know you are much older but you said you have never hit your mother.

 

As to the question of if we would kill our children, I can definitely say that even in my darkest moments I have never though of Killing Ben. I have had fleeting thoughts about killing myself but the thought of my son living without me, the only constant person in his life, has quickly pushed the thought away. I have even thought of leaving my family without a word but Ben has always been the one person I would take with me. He needs me and I could not desert him. The reason for leaving would be so I could devote all my time to Ben without the stresses he feels from his siblings. When Ben is alone with me he is a different child.

 

I think you are taring all of the parents on this forum with the same brush as your mother. I am sorry your mother is less than understanding and a bit thoughtless but we are not all the same.

 

I do agree with you when you say that a carer who kills it's charge should face some form of justice and an Autistic person should not be dealt with as harshly as any other killer, these are sadly very grey areas in our justice system.

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Guest hallyscomet

Well I have just read them all and reading between the lines I see with regard to parents using this forum and autism adults using this forum, the part where a comment was said we have to be careful what we say so as not the hurt the others feelings.

 

Perhaps we could look at it as a point of view we are trying to understand autism and as this is new to some of us it can be like struggling to learn a new language, very difficult, and we feel when we make a mistake we get wrapped over the knuckles for making a mistake.

 

Living with autism is a different matter and you may have your frustrations as well as you see things from a completely different perspective and sometime you hear things on here that frustrates the hell out of you because you know autism much more than us because you live with it everyday, perhaps you could have some empathy for us as if we are a bunch of dimwits that just cant catch on, are having trouble learning your fluent language. Some of us really want to learn, some of us begrudgingly want to learn, some of us are really poor learners and never been good at learning ourselves anyway. So we like you get frustrated and have meltdowns as well.

 

So all in all, we are all in a fish bowl together, learning to live with one another compassionately, and often we might p!ss one another off because we are all different, in how "we" like to do things, or know to do things. So, we all have to take a deep breath and say, PATIENCE IS A VIRTUE. We are more than likely to say something stupid, but we all have tunnel vision sometimes, and we all see our own worlds our own problems and vision problems.

 

We all have trouble unclouding the water (in the fishbowl) so we need to learn to pull our heads out of the mud so we can see again, and it is a learning process, to do that. Some take longer than other to do that, and if someone isnt feeling well, someone that usually does things well, plunges down in the mud and gets lost too. Needing time out to recover, and come up for air again, until they clear their head, and can start swimming around again, and enjoying their life.

 

H.

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There was yet another news item on the BBC this morning. It was said less than 15% of parents get any help from social services, and the prime requirements are respite, and after school support, but most areas have nothing, so what's new ? will these deaths trigger some support awareness ? I fear not... yesterdays' chip paper already.

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Lucas I believe you when you say that your mother isn't working in your best interests but do you think that perhaps because of the communication difficulties between you and her, that she doesn't understand what you want or sees potential problems that you don't see with regards to giving you more independence? Is it possible that the amount of independence you want isn't possible because she is worried that you may be put in a situation that you are unable to cope with?

 

There is a common phrase 'being cruel to be kind' which could apply to your situation. You feel that your mother is being cruel to you because she won't allow you the freedom you want, but she is actually doing it out of kindness because she loves you and doesn't want to see you have more problems.

 

I do not think that murdering an Autistic person is less important than killing a non-Autistic person. All lives are equally as important. But sometimes our mental health is so bad that we can't be help completely responsible for what we do, which is why there is the manslaughter category in addition to murder.

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The same consideration taken of her mental state is not given to any Autistic convicted of any crime. Any judgement made about her mental state involves speculating as to the causes of her mental state, ie: the burden the child is on her. I've seen it all before and the number of cases where a carer murders an Autistic and is freed far outnumbers the cases where they are treated the same way as any other murderer.

 

There was a cr*p book a few years back titled The United States of Leyland where the author wanted the main character to be a murderer but one that readers could sympathise with, so the person he murdered was an Autistic that he was putting out of their misery. He was doing it for their own good, a rationale that underlines nearly every murder of an Autistic person. Gladly, this book was so rubbish no one ever heard of it. But if a very popular book had a similiar theme then readers would of course have no sympathy for the victim and all compassion for the killer. The media covering Autism is saturated with this message.

 

Hi Lucas -

 

While i would agree totally with your comments regarding the 'value' of this boys life - that media/social responses should NOT (be allowed to) portray him as somehow 'less important' because of his autism - I also take serious issue with the view you take of his mother's actions and her probable mental state at the time of the act.

You seem to hold the view that the son's autism should not be seen as a 'mitigating circumstance', or that caring for somebody with autism could not imply circumstances where 'diminished responsibility' would an appropriate legal interpretation. Sorry, mate, i think on that at least you are totally wrong...

Whether the 'blame' lies with social responses to autism (and disability in general) is - in the individual case - irrelevent, the facts are that parenting a disabled child is (while not necessarily unique) different from the norm, and those differences do provide grounds for mitigation. Try something as 'simple' as taking an autistic child shopping and you can see that difference, try arranging your life so you never have to TAKE that child shopping, and you're swapping one set of 'difference' for another...

I'd agree completely that such mitigation should work in both directions - that where an autistic person finds themselves in the dock their difference should be acknowledged and considered in any sentencing - but I have never been a believer (and never will be, no matter how passionate i am about equal rights issues) that one sort of injustice can be offered as an excuse for another. Two wrongs, in my book, will never make a right...

 

Diminished responsibility: I don't know the legal definition of 'diminished responsibility', and FWIW I don't think it's worth worrying about anyway. The legal professional is adept at arguing black is white, and could offer twenty different interpretations of any legal definition you cared to look up... So, rightly or wrongly, I'll plough on with MY interpretation of the phrase.

I regard diminished responsibilty as being a state of mind where external effects evolve over a period of time to negatively influence an individuals ability to 'rationalise' their thoughts or behaviour...

In caring for my own son, I have been at various times under incredible stress (and no doubt will be again) through external events that arise specifically as a result of his autism.

[Please note: I am not saying that my son or autism are responsible for those effects - by and large the main problem has been social responses too and lack of support for autistic people, but again that's not the point I'm disagreeing with you on, so it is in this context irrelevent.]

I have been at various times and for prolonged periods: Physically, emotionally and mentally exhausted, sleep deprived, socially isolated, socially targeted, physically challenged and abused, verbally challenged and abused [etc etc]... At the same time i've been trying to cope with the mechanics of trying to care for a child with special needs: Housing issues, medical issues, behavioural issues, social issues, MY health issues (arising from...), educational issues, support issues, finance issues, respite (HAHA!) issues [etc etc]...

On top of all those direct influences there are also the indirect ones; the fear for the future that every parent feels for their child, but which increase exponentially where disability is a factor. The 'what if' part of parenting: 'What if I can't cope?', 'What if i get ill?' 'What if i die?' 'What if he/she can't cope?' 'What if the school can't cope?' 'What about'...

Oddly, that last seems almost trivial on paper, when in fact it's probably the most powerful...

It's fear that stops you from walking away, it's fear that stops you from making the right choices, it's fear that keeps you desperately hanging in there when you are already on the ropes... Fear for those you love is probably the greatest driving emotion of all, but in terms of 'diminished responsibility', it is probably the most dangerous.

 

None of those above factors, Lucas, are exclusive to ASD's. Any sort of 'difference' can give rise to the kind of pressures I've highlighted, and those types of pressures can arise in situations that aren't particularly 'different' too - a general butterfly effect from something as seemingly trivial as a change of job or house move, but - Like it or lump it - they are REAL, and they DO often arise around autism. That doesn't diminish the 'value' of the autistic person, but neither is it something society (or the individuals making up that society) should ever overlook...

 

L&P

BD

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Lucas you say:

 

I am actually quite glad I've grown up and am bigger than my mother now for the reason that she had no deterrent to killing me because she worked in social services and had seen parents murder their disabled children and get away with it by emphasising the burden that child was. If she had ever been sufficiently pushed to the limit I certainly do not trust her moral development to protect me from her errational impulses.

 

I have some questions can your Mum trust you respective to your irrational impulses?, if your were to hurt your mother badly would you plead guilty with diminish responsability?

 

beside all this beleive me when somebody wants to kill, wether the prospect victime is stronger or not there are plenty ways this can be done the main deterrent is a morale one or being afraid of the consequences, but really parents who can no longer cope and are mentally sane and able to make a decision can leave the child to social services for fostering or adoption.

My point on this which may be difficult to understand for you is that the care from your parents whatever imperfect, is a blessing or may be in your case as it seems that it is not you should request your mother not to care for you anymore.You can't have it both way if you need the care you should give some credit to the carer if the carer is somehow abusing you you then (if your mental state is sound and I beleive it is) request a legal action to change carer or to become fully independant.

 

The other point is that my heart goes to little Ryan who did not have the choice in the matter, but the point is that his mother had lost her sanity and felt that murder and suicide was the only way for her. I know for myself that if i was not able to cope anymore and able to make a sane decision i would request the SS to foster my son as cruel as it seems it is better than making his life a misery or taking his life away. But really in the heart of a mother (and of fathers sometimes) the love for our own children do allow us to cope with most of the difficulties and the love of our children for us allow them to cope with our short coming.

 

Another question Luccas very personal one do you think your mother loves you.? and yourself do you love your mother?

 

Take care. >:D<<'> >:D<<'> >:D<<'>

 

 

Malika.

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This was a very tragic event ,perhaps at some point Alison felt that she was doing the right thing, that living had become just too hard.That death and dying was a blessing and taking Ryan with her meant they could be together in death.If your life gives you no pleasure , if you struggle every single minute maybe she felt this her only choice.I saw an interview with her sister, they had previously begged her not to do something like this, even her family could,nt save her. :(

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I do agree with you when you say that a carer who kills it's charge should face some form of justice and an Autistic person should not be dealt with as harshly as any other killer, these are sadly very grey areas in our justice system.

 

IF the 'Aspies for freedom'-type school of thought prevails (we're different, not disabled), then it is absolutely contradictory that an autist should not be treated like any other killer.

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I personally believe she has jumped with her son and she has done it out of love for him, she wouldn't have wanted to leave him alone at the mercy of the Ar*ewipes called Social workers.

 

 

Clare

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I'm not able to make the post I intended now, nothing but progressively stupid comments have followed since I indicated that I was planning to and I can't argue with perjorative and unfounded distortions of reality for the reason that their basis can be changed again and again to suit peoples own views.

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Lucas. There isn't a single 'stupid comment' on this thread. You really have to learn to respect other points of view. Everyone is entitled to an opinion without being it being called 'stupid'.

 

Lauren

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The basis of reality in this instance ?............well that is surely something none of us know, which is why, this thread holds so many differing views on these tragic events, to have a differing opinion/view from another is surely to be expected.We all experience and percieve the world differently .Lucas you should, if you feel, continue to offer your thoughts.I won,t call them stupid.

Edited by Suze

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The basis of reality in this instance ?............well that is surely something none of us know, which is why, this thread holds so many differing views on these tragic events, to have a differing opinion/view from another is surely to be expected.We all experience and percieve the world differently .Lucas you should, if you feel, continue to offer your thoughts.I won,t call them stupid.

 

Well said Suze, everyone should have an opinion, isn't this what this site is about, saying what you feel?

ps - your up early!!!!!!!

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Hi all,

Is anybody else really concerned that nothing has been said about if the mother has been found?? I cant believe a week has gone by and the story has just faded!!!!!!!!!! ###### government!!!!!!!!

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Hi emma

Im right with you on that one, in fact steve and i have just been saying the same thing not 2 minutes ago after rreading about the latest incident where we live (yobs threw an autistic man off the city walls) I still say if there was more understanding about Autism then maybe people would be a little more compationate. Im very concerned that there has been no word of ryans mum. I know the chances of finding her alive are very slim, but todays news just goes to show the suffering some people have to put up with as the result of been different. :angry:

shaz

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Hi all,

Is anybody else really concerned that nothing has been said about if the mother has been found?? I cant believe a week has gone by and the story has just faded!!!!!!!!!! ###### government!!!!!!!!

I've just heard something on the news, but they have yet to formally identify her. :(

 

Brook

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I thought it would just be a matter of time :( Didn't the CCTV show two people jumping? Didn't think she would ever be found alive after hearing that. It's so sad, and was really upset when I heard the breaking news when it first happened. This must be so hard for all their family and friends.

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my mum and I were talking about this yesterday......hoping for the families sake that alison,s body would be found.There ,s still alot about the story in our local press........I,m off to see if I can post a link.

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