Causes of Autistic Spectrum Disorders?

[kirstie]

HERE I FIND MYSELF AGAIN,RAISING YET MORE QUESTIONS.I AM AT THE BRAIN WRACKING STAGE! I CAN'T HELP BUT WONDER ABOUT THIS.A FEW YEARS AGO I HAD A STILLBIRTH AT 38 WEEKS.THIS WAS DUE TO CMV (cyto meglovirus) I DO KNOW THAT YOU BECOME IMMUNE TO IT ONCE YOU'VE HAD IT BUT IT COMES INTO MY HEAD A LOT,COULD THERE BE ANYWAY THAT IS WHY MY SON HAS AN ASD?

[pookie170]

Kirstie,

I'm so sorry for your loss, it must have been awful for you.

I don't know what kind of immunity develops after contracting CMV, but if it's the kind I'm thinking of then the antibodies may have been passed onto your son during gestation. As far as I know, this type of immunity does not cause damage, it would be akin to your son receiving any other acquired immunity in the womb, and the purpose of this is entirely protective. It just means that for the first few weeks of life, your son had defences against many common illnesses to help him thrive. I am certainly no expert on this, only done higher biology and human biology so far, but I'm pretty sure most of these antibodies that are passed from mother to foetus are lost after the first few weeks, which is why our children then require vaccinations of their own. And THAT'S a whole different ballpark.

So I really don't think the CMV would have had an impact on your son, please don't blame yourself. It's something that all we parents here do, me included but personally, I don't think there's anything much we could've done to prevent our children developing ASD's. I know a lot of people believe the MMR caused their child's ASD, and I have an inkling this might be right but other factors also contribute.(Genetics, for example) Even if this is proven to be the case, our reasons for giving our children vaccines are the best. We wanted to protect them. And that is a blameless situation again. Answers would be nice, but I think we're a good while away from them at the moment. All we can do is plod on and appreciate our children for the amazing and splendiferous wee creatures that they are....hope my take helps, and doesn't offend-always a worry when I open me big gob!!

Esther x

[kirstie]

thanks for you're lovely post.and of coarse you didn't offend me.i think with the cmv i'm making that connection as it can affect the brain.the questions never stop do they? well i do think that hereditary factors are major, in my opinion anyway and i also think that ontop of that an mmr jag can't help.but you are so right that whatever we do it's for the best possibe reasons.i love my son and i wouldn't be without him or his wonderful ways, they make him who he is.

[kirstie]

i was just reading through those crazy posts .they made me laugh, a real tonic, and i know i'll go back and read them again when i'm cheesed off!!

i know i've posted my anxieties on CMV, but i do think he is a carbon copy of his Dad. He was (is) an alchoholic who has misused drugs and had many a ' crutch' to depend on.my son comes from a long line of alchoholics and bad tempers.From birth my son was hard work, never slept always sick bowel problems, temper tantrums like i'd never seen before (except in daddy dearest). Lewis would get into such a rage he would have a nose bleed! i remember being so frightened that he was going to be just like his Dad.that is untill at around 6 months he started rocking his head violently when going to sleep.it was so disturbing to watch, i'd touch him gently to try and bring him round, ever fearful he would do himself some harm.

It was interesting to read in an earlier post that someone said their child wouldn't eat solids, neither did Lewis he was, my health visitor said a lazy eater! it's only now that these kinds of things are all fitting into place.Since then his eating habits have only regressed.

The rages continued the health visitors continued to chuckle and patronise me with the 'its his age' ######, and my sanity continued to fade.I remember around the time i left his Dad i thought to myself that people would laugh if itold them Lewis is eccentric,could an 18 month old BE eccentric? certainley it seemed that way.He wouldn't accept his cup from you unless you placed it in an exact place,he'd then look at it for a minute or two then take it, or he would have to hold one shoe while you put the other one on,he would have to shut the door if anyone left, of coarse the almighty meltdown if thing didnt happen the way he liked. not much has changed on that score.

As i said noone took my concerns seriously.i was on my knees,asking for help.none came. that is untill he started nursery and the staff there realised things wren't as they should be (their expression) and so the assesments began.What a relief, his differences were being aknowledged.The outcome ( after much butt kicking i have to say) was AS. The sad fact is we're still fighting to have his needs met.Hereditary,i'd say so.But i would also say that i noticed earlier this year that hallelujah he was making some progress.He was easier to deal with, he'd go to bed or in the bath without the usual all out riot.(this was with the help of visual timetables) He would even wait his turn to get on the bus without bashing some poor old dear out of the way in his quest to get to 'his' seat. that is untill he had his mmr booster.......He regressed hard and fast.My concerns were brushed under the carpet really,and there i found myself being patronised once again.

it's shitty that evrything is a fight, but at least i will fight for him,i will never stop.my children are the loves of my life.I have learnt to cope and i find myself fiercley protective of them both.Who cares if none of the other kids invite Lewis to their party,their loss as he is the funniest and sweetest boy ever.we can have our own party, in the Bat cave but god help me should i forget thomas the tank!!!

[pookie170]

Maybe one day we could all meet up and have a big party or something, it sounds like our kids are a bit party-deficient here!

Just need to find a bat-cave big enough to fit all of us AND Thomas.......

Esther x

[nellie]

Kirstie,

 

Glad you enjoyed the crazy posts. They are a mad lot. Note I said 'they' and didn't include myself. I'm standing well back when the men in the white coats come to take them away.

 

Kirstie I'm sorry it's been so tough for you. I had alcoholism in my family when I was a child, I know what kind of hell that can be, there is always something or someone else to blame.

 

You sound like a great mum who is doing her very best for her children. I'm glad your son is making progress. I hope you get the help and understanding you and your son need without having to fight too hard.

 

 

Nellie. <'>

[pookie170]

Nellie, I don't know who you're trying to kid, you're as bonkers as anyone here!!

I agree, kudos to Kirstie, can't be easy dealing that situation and your son's condition. Remember we're always hear, willing to have our ears bent!

By the way, don't know if you watch ER but CMV was featured in the storyline this week. Very interesting....

You sound like a very strong person, hope all goes well for Lewis and you.

Chat soon.

Esther x

[lynyona]

bid... Im glad you broght that up ive been catching up on the posts and i thought what the,and i dont think im still really with it ive totally lost the plot lynn

[CarolJ]

I went to see an ASD school on Friday for Scott, headmaster was brilliant he had 20 years of dealing with ASDs. Anyway we entered into a discussion about causes of ASDs and research. He said work research was being carried out at the moment into identifying genes and weak X chromosomes (not fragile X) he said that is why generally boys are affected more so than girls. They still have 1 healthy X chromosome.

 

Anyway, to cut long story short he said about the rise in children with "regressive" ASDs. He said they are born with the genetic potential for ASD. He said that they develop normally and then an unknown environmental element triggers the autism. Well you know me, I don't miss an opportunity, I said "MMR?", he looked at me and smiled. I also know many parents who believe DPT may have someway added to or caused ASD's, mercury content (thimersol) - symptoms of mercury posioning and autism are identical.

 

Anyway, just thought I add my views. By the way, I phoned Scott's peadiatrican again today and asked about this MRI scan. He waffled and made an excuse that he had been very busy - likely story, he has now promised me a referral by Wednesday and will get back to me and let me know how long I need to wait!

 

Have to take Scott to get blood test on Friday, they have to sedate him, last Friday was a disaster - he headbutted nurse! She kept saying - "what a naughty boy", I told her "do you come across manyASD children", she totallydid not know how to deal with Scott. She kept telling me to tell him to stop climbing up at the window. I patiently explained to her that "he does not understand"! GRRRR, so called professionals. My little boy cant help what he does, that is why we were in the stupid hospital getting tests!!!

 

Anyway, I told her that I blamed DoH policy of herd vaccination, he would not be like this if he had not had MMR! She just looked at me.

[pookie170]

Hi all!

 

A few of the recent posts have made me wonder (again!) about possible contributory factors to children developing autism. I just wondered what everyone else's thoughts on this subject are...Who knows, someone may post their musings, a researcher may read it, research it and BINGO!! One cause identified!!

 

(Okay, it's unlikely, but anything is possible!!)

 

Perhaps, like me, you live in an area with a high concentration of industrial plants nearby and think that might have something to do with it....

I've wondered about the levels of exhaust emissions....I believe benzene and other nasty chemicals are released by cars that run on unleaded petrol....could that have an effect on unborn children, regarding the development of ASD's? Might explain why more children are diagnosed with an ASD now.....

Of course, I have absolutely no scientific evidence for this, it's merely a thought, but if you have any others you feel like sharing, please do!

 

Take care, all!

Esther x

Edited July 19, 2004 by pookie170

[CarolJ]

Esther, wot u like?

 

Well, need I say more I think its eating bananas personally[1]

 

[1] ref Adam Jacobs BMJ et al (Bananas cause autism!)

 

Mercury is a good one but I have to say

 

I dont live anywhere near any crematoriums, the nearest one is 15 miles away, so it depends which way the wind is blowing.

 

I only have 2 silver fillings in my knashers - (only 2 teeth I have left which are my own LOL!).

 

Did not have dental treatment whilst pregnant (with either of my two, just checkups).

 

Did not eat oil fish whilst pregnant (high levels of mercury)

 

Took folic acid before conception

 

Breast fed both my kids

 

Did not eat junk food whilst pregnant, dont eat much now as I like me home cooked dinners!

 

I do indulge in the odd chocolate, but on the whole eat a healthy balanced diet.

 

Oh yeh I do smoke but did not smoke whilst pregnant (well a couple of sneaky ones with Scottie!).

 

Did not drink (at all) when pregnant

 

Did not do drugs - well not until after I had scottie and he started (ended up on prozac! LOL

 

Car emissions mmmm, that is a good one but in the 1940s and 50's I remember my dad talking about "pea soup" fog in London, smog from burning fossil fuels also lead in petrol and in things like paint (but autism was virtually unknown) and regressive autism did not exist except following serious viral infection or trauma of some kind.

 

A recent study was done in USA on infant mice who were given the same levels/quantities of thimersal equivalent to that given to newborn humans, the result - a third of the mice displayed signs of neurological damage!

 

Early compromising of an underdeveloped immune system by heavy childhood vaccination programme, over-prescription of antibiotics to cure all the little ear infections and infections that youngsters seem to get these days (I dont remember getting so many non-specific illnesses in childhood) and finally the good old MMR! Viola - Autism! Many kids become autisitc or display reaction to early DPTs, but screaming and temperatures and finally MMR is the one that finally pushes some suceptible children over the edge, so to speak - some already having become autisitic or displaying autistic traits following DPTs.

 

Ultrasound is also a good theory. I had 2 scans the whole time I was pregnant, not sure if this affected them but I remember when scottie was in uterero, so to speak when they scanned him they had to prod him to wake him up as he was having 40 winks! Lazy so and so, just wished he sleep now LOL!

 

Anyway, of course some children as a result of birth trauma injury autism can be a result and geneology (traits - I would say especaillly with aspergers).

 

It makes me wonder what it is that causes a child of say 16 months to become severely autistic after showing no (and I mean absolutely no) signs of autism prior to alleged event.

 

Funnily enough I have read of much older children become autistic after jabs. There is a little boyin Sussex, I dont think his name was disclosed, but he became autistic after having MMR at 12 years old, By the age of 13 he was autistic - another girl of 7 years!

 

Food for thought eh, if autism does not show itself until the second year of life then why are older children becoming autisitic following MMR?

 

If this influence is environmental, as I posted before, why arent adults developing signs of neurological problems, why do autism appear in clusters (coudl it be the surgeries these children are attending, maybe batch nos of vaccines should be looked at to see if the children have all had same or similar batches!

 

I could go on but will stop here.

 

Good topic though CC!

Edited July 19, 2004 by CarolJ

[pookie170]

I just knew you would be the first to reply to this one, Carol!!

 

I agree regarding vaccinations, I just wondered if anyone else had theories?

 

There's a point, actually- COULD it be bananas??

 

Seriously though, I wonder if unborn babies exposed to recreational drugs are affected, in an autism-developing kind of way?

 

Anyone know?

Hmmm.......

Esther x

[CarolJ]

Esther I know herroine addicts who carried babies whilst taking methodone babies came out beautiful, I think statistically it leads to still births misscarriage etc. but am not sure about autism.

 

I know a girl personally who has a habit, her baby is the most beautiful NT child you have ever seen!

 

So I guess I dont know mate ....

[pookie170]

Yeah....I know someone who had a baby whilst on methadone and her baby is super bright, marvellously charming and cute as pie to boot!!!

 

 

Meanwhile, there was I, downing folic acid, binning the fags......there is a tinge of jealousy and 'why me?' but 95% of me is just really chuffed they were both okay, as the mum is a wonderful person and the baby is just too charming for words!!

It would just be lovely to have some answers, though.....

 

Esther x

[CarolJ]

Esther hun

 

If I had a �1 for everytime I looked at my two and thought, "Why them?" I would be rich rich rich!

 

I'd be eating mcvities choccie homewheat instead of hobnobs!

 

The cause(s) of autism have to be found, at the moment the statistics are that you have more chance (x6) of having an autistic child than you do of winning the lottery!

 

Why can't I have both LOL!

[fifeman23]

I think I read somewhere about nicotine receptors in the brain trigger problems with brain development of babies.

 

I personally think tobacco is a substance that should have been banned and outlawed many years ago!

[CarolJ]

Fifeman, I seem to remember a study about nicotine and babies development so yes, I think you are right.

 

Tobacco is nasty, I totally agree but it has been around for 300 years, so dunno if there is a link, I know my mum smoked with all of us (3) and none of us has any problems (well perhaps me but I think those are more self-inflicted) - I suppose the effects of tobacco smoke was not so widely known in those days!

 

The majority of mums I know with autistic children are actually non-smokers . I would be inclined to say that perhaps alcholhol would be more potent on the brain of a developing child but people do drink when pregnant and have kids with no apparent problems so I suppose in moderation it may not be that big a problem!

 

What really gets to me sometimes is people are always so ready to blame the mums (not the least the mums themselves - I know I wrack my brains sometimes thinking what is I did, ate or took that caused this??)

 

In this day and age we know so much more about pregnancy, we take folic acid to avoid problems like spinabifida, have scans are monitored throughout pregnancy, blood samples upon blood samples taken out of us (like dart boards) - are prodded and poked about - and our kids still end up with problems (although my son's did not start until he was 16+ months).

 

Believe me every mother of an autistic child sits there and goes through it, it is horrible and you never quite get rid of that feeling that in some way you have let your child down.

 

Added to that is the fact that people look at you as a parent and almost accuse you for the problems your kids have, ie it has to be the parent's fault, I have had someone actually say to me my son deserves a good hiding! Well needless to say I soon correct that misconception - LOL

 

I look at my kids and think "This was not in the job description", this is not what I thought I was going to end up with - I love my kids more than life itself but the reasons as to why my son especailly is so severely affected need to be answered, if only for my extended family so that if triggers or causes are identified then we know what to do and what not to do.

 

 

Hopefully, one day, for all our sakes the answers will become clear and perhaps help for the severe problems my scottie has can provide some measure to making his life as fulfilling as possible.

 

We all live in hope,

 

PS. Hey, perhaps it was that Irn Bru his dad guzzled as a kid that somehow caused a genetic modification in my son, who knows! [John always insists it sends the weans crazy!) - Perhaps should add Barrs to the list of defendants in the UK litigation case!

 

P.P.S. just popping to the shops - ran out of fags LOL!

[baddad]

I think it's going to be impossible to prove any actual causes of autism, because any links are likely to be casual rather than direct. That said, I think that there are a huge variety of "20th century" environmental factors that can (and do!) impact on those who have a genetic (or accidental - i.e. through birth trauma)susceptability. All the usual suspects MMR, mercury, antibiotics etc, and many things that just haven't been drawn into the equation yet. That's why the debate rages over something so obviously "suspect" as MMR (3 infections historically linked to autism given in 1 hit during the single most important phase of post natal brain development? What are the odds of there NOT being a connection???); because it's not the only cause, and it doesn't effect everyone...

Food for thought: Fags/Cancer... Thalidomide/Deformity... BSE/CJD. Debate raged for years over all of these, and there were DIRECT links between them all!

 

I'm fairly confident that bananas are ok, though, because I eat tons of them and I'm completely hatstand (haha)

 

Two other major causes of autism? Margaret Thatcher and New Labour! OK, that might be pushing things a bit too far (actually, how much has autism risen since the witch of the west stole our kid's free school milk?), but i guess both of them have some responsibility for the "spin" that surrounds this issue.

 

Rant done, I'll move over for someone a little less angry now! Love and Peace

[CarolJ]

David you rant away m8, I'll join you - I do love a good rant

 

Can meningitis also lead to autism? Due to the brain inflamation factor, the reason why I asked is that Scott was given Meng C vaccine 23 days before MMR. When he was given Meng C he had a runny nose and and a cold, he was also in the process of teething - perhaps all indications were that his immune system was not 100 per cent. Perhaps that had some bearing.

 

My daughter received Meng C and MMR at the same time, she also was "under the weather" at the time and her balance, speech and toilet training skills were affected, it was noticed by the playgroup she was at the time, and she also kept falling and hurting herself - I had a visit from Health Visitor because concerns were raised about her - luckily health visitor knew me well so nothing else was done.

 

It was put down to a phase, but of course suspicision was directed at me because of her apparent regression, she was withdrawn and had lost eye contact - one more thing to add to the "Bad Parent list".

 

Also I had gone back to work, someone once suggested to me that because I worked (although my children were in good quality childcare) that was the reason for my kids ASDs "Refridgerator/Career Mother" syndrome.

 

It seems some people just dont deserve to be parents LOL!

 

P.S. with the milk issue, I suppose it wont matter to my kids on the c/f g/f free diet!

Edited July 20, 2004 by CarolJ

[baddad]

Hi Carol -

 

Don't know if meningitis has been "officially" linked, but my personal feeling (backed up by some research, but don't ask me to quote tonight!)is that extreme temperatures with viral infections can be triggers. meningitis would fall into this catagory... I seem to remember reading in older literature that damage arising from meningitis has resulted in autism, but don't know where i read this... would suspect it was early editions of Lorna Wings books, so a trip to the ref library might give you some more information...

Good luck tomorrow (again).

[pookie170]

My personal opinion on this one is that most bad reactions to viruses and vaccinations etc. involve a high temperature. Very high body temperatures denature or destroy cells in the body....I can only assume that brain cells are not impervious to this.

As brain damage is linked to autism, I think that it's extremely stupid that the vaccination avenue has not been properly investigated.

 

Genetics and genetic mutations being as they are, obviously a percentage of the population will be protected, but some will not have this genetic protection. I really believe a link will be identified at some point. I also think its criminal that work is not yet being done to find out.

 

I just wonder if pollution might also be linked.....

 

Ah, well......

See what I've started??

 

Esther x

[CarolJ]

Esther, you have a knack of opening up a can of worms, of course not talking about the little visitors (pets) your Calghal had adopted - LOL!

 

You know it is late and again my brain has been rambling, a tendency I seem to do in wee small hours of the morning whilst watching my boy rampage round the house - watching a programme on gang warfare and the rising incidents of violence amongs youths and young people in general and a thought struck me (cue lightbulb!)

 

WHAT IF!

 

Autism is the tip of the iceburg, what if ADD/ADHD and other associated behavioural problems and "disturbed" young uns are all part of the same problem?

 

Too much TV, junk food, disfunctional family life (aka blame the parents!) dammnit, even bananas have all been attributed to the break down of "moral values" in kids today.

 

In USA of course the problem has been getting worse for last 35 years (in line with yes - wait for it - mass vaccination) - closely mirroring rises in ASDs.

 

Whaf if that in children who dont develop autism and seem not to suffer ill effects (which is why folks say perhaps there is no link that not all children develop ASD following jabs) but a certain amount of damage is still done in apparently "normal" children part of the brain which gives us a conscious and is that which gives us that sense of right and wrong is affected - the ability to have empathy (of course another ASD trait)????? - to a higher degree is this not what what happens with ASD? I would say that my son's very humanity itself has been affected (and it breaks my heart to admit this) but alot of what my son does is governed by pure survival needs and instincts ie if he is hungry he eats, thirsty he drinks if he is angry he hits out and so and so forth! His awarness has been affected.

 

How many times have I heard that this country is getting more like USA every day! When these young people or teens are interviewed they really dont see a problem with the way they are behaving, surely this is not total bravardo and just fitting in - and sorry to say it alot of these kids seem "none to bright" from the way they use speech (alot of the time repeating the same phrases) - I would guess there may be associated learning difficulties there. I ask, what is it that stops us from hurting others - the ability to have empathy and identify with others? Why do these kids seem to do terrible things without a second thought!

 

I could not have another child because I would have to watch my scottie he would end up killing a baby (not meaning to) but I could not take the risk. I wanted to breed ragdoll kittens but decided not to because I know my scott would probably hurt them!

 

I know I am probably due for another course of electric shock therapy but you know, perhaps there is a link after all!

 

What if ......

Edited July 21, 2004 by CarolJ

[pookie170]

What if, indeed?

 

Interesting thoughts, Carol.....(said the psychologist as the nurse fastened the straitjacket on Carol...... )

 

It could be that there is a link. Mind you, looking at some of the wee 'Neds' round our way, and looking further at their parents attitudes and police records(heh heh) I wonder how much of that is learned behaviour. But could there be a link to vaccination damage?

 

I see what you mean, Carol.....maybe there is damage that stops them considering consequences, adhering to social expectations, etc.

 

Though in the case of our local yobs, I think they're just poisonous little toads, trying to impress one another with their bravado and disregard for laws.....

I will say that I know some of their parents and they seem like decent people, who have decent parenting skills....they have other kids who have respect for people's feelings, etc so I don't know why some yobs turn out the way they do.....

 

Esther x

[CarolJ]

maybe there is damage that stops them considering consequences, adhering to social expectations, etc.

 

As I posted earlier I suspect that maybe Irn Bru may be playing a major part in this yobbish behaviour.

 

I would definitely petition to have Barrs added to the list of defendants in the UK litigation case!

 

Sigh, I definitely need to get a life!

[pookie170]

In all seriousness, Irn Bru contains additives and colourings that have been banned in most other EU countries, as they are harmful or affect ADHD, etc!!

 

Not that that stops me from drinking it!

I wonder if Buckfast, the tipple of 'Ned' choice in these parts, has a similar effect???

 

Esther x

[CarolJ]

On a more serious note - yea alright its me talking!

 

You know when you are out at your little ASD child decides to have major tantrum/meltdown what do people do - ahh haaa, they blame you!

 

Well, it is just a theory like, but maybe perhaps to a certain degree it is peer pressure/parental example but could there be something else!

 

I know this is contraversial but look at that poor wee tot Jamie Bulger, those boys were old enough to know right from wrong were they, but look at what little b*******ds did. Now I dont want to make an excuse but the majority of us cannot understand how anyone can do such a disgusting a cruel thing to a child, let alone another child! Why? Where was their sense of right and wrong. Could they have felt that babies pain when they did those things to little Jamie? Cold hearted monsters that have been given protection and new identities, they have a life now but little Jamies' life is finished - god knows what those parents went through.

 

The scariest thing of all is that I know Scott (okay he is severely autistic) hurts things like the cats (often hear them yeow!) - he enjoys the reaction - he does not realise that he his hurting - he knows he is getting a reaction. He hurts me, he hurts his sister he hurst his dad LOL!. He does not do it out of malice he doesit because he just does. Empathy is not there - realising that what he does hurrts someone else or being aware of anothers pain is just not in his makeup. I worry about him. As I said I would not have another child because I would live in constant fear of that child's safety from scott.

 

I hate saying but as scott grows older and stronger, I am scared - I only hope that he will start to understand things and get better.

 

Am I just being over negative here, but it is something I have thought about and I am not very confident about the future, I just hope Scott will prove me wrong.

[pookie170]

I'm sure he will, Carol!

 

I'm sure I read that those boys did not have the best of lives before they killed...not that that excuses their actions, but they might have witnessed things during their formative years that affected their behaviour for life.

Your Scott, my Caghal, all the ASD kids are different. They have a genuine lack of understanding regarding other people's feelings. I 'spyed' on my two together, and I watched Caghal hurt his wee brother(before I zoomed in to the rescue) with the strangest expression on his face-it was more like he was conducting an experiment than trying to inflict pain! He might do something to hurt me, and when I inevitable say 'Don't you know how that makes me feel?' he will say no without the slightst hint of laughter or surliness, just a wee blank face....

 

I know most of us have fears for our kids' futures....I do, anyway. I hope they realise a bit aboutit being wrong to hit....I have my doubts that Caghal will ever grasp the perception of putting himself in another's shoes, but I do hope he learns that no hitting is a rule.

 

Fingers crossed, eh Carol?? <'>

 

Esther x

[CarolJ]

Fingers crossed, eh Carol?? 

 

Fingers, toes, legs and eyes crossed here - having major problems typing now

 

The fear I have with scott that without meaningful language how can I teach him or get him to understand. I have tried "hurting" him back but he doesnot flinch - he has poor pain response - so he cannot appreciate how much it hurts others! (opps hope social services arent ear wigging on this thread - child protection orders all round!)

 

Sigh, best keep em crossed I suppose!

[pookie170]

Have you had any advice on alternative communication techniques like Makaton, Carol? I believe this is quite successful.....

 

Maybe you could try showing him a card with a simple, 'crying' smilie on it every time he lashes out? Or a pic of himself crying?

 

Have a hug, <'> (better disentangle your limbs first!!)

 

Esther x

[baddad]

Hi Carol -

I think the general breakdown in social "empathy" (for want of a better phrase... "societal autism") has more to do with the "nuclear family" political agenda that has been followed since the 50's and 60's (of course, reaching it's peak with good ol' Thatch and now more furtively followed by New Labour). The whole ideology behind this was (is) "I'm all right jack", which provides ideal conditions for the creation of an exploitable underclass (gap between highest earners and poverty liners continues to widen, even after Thatch managed to create the biggest discrepency for some 100+ years!), and widespread acceptance of these huge inequalities. In many ways, we're reaping what we allowed to be sown... How can young people have any real insight into the lives of those less fortunate than themselves, when they've been taught to regard them as "non-people" who they don't need to think about?

I'm not a "raving lefty", but I have seen all political parties make targets of lot's of minorities; Mental health/Elderly/Single mum's/Refuges etc etc etc, and I've seen the development of a culture that has to have human suffering rammed down it's throat (live aid, red nose...) before it even registers that something, somewhere is wrong

I know this isn't the place for political debate, but I do think politics is far more damaging generally, than the things you mentioned are specifically, if that makes any sense!

[fifeman23]

Deblegs please get in touch!

 

I was born with the exact same situation, with the umbilical chord around my neck, although no-one knows whether I was blue or not but I had difficulty breathing my mum told me. It was ages before they brought me to see my mum.

 

I am visiting the doctors tommorrow to get answers from the doctor but, not surprisingly, I can't sleep. That's why I'm up at 2:28AM!

[CarolJ]

Fifeman, how did you get on at doctors.

 

It must be very difficult for you - I can totally identify with the need for answers. I pushed for an MRI scan for mylittle boy because I need answers as to why he is not making progress. I need to know if he has any damage. I am still waiting for answers, takes 6 to 8 weeks! Although I need to know I am also scared of what they might find, if anything!

 

I hope you managed to get some sleep!

 

Take care

[pookie170]

Just as long as you let us know how Scott gets on, hon!!

 

Our resident super-campaigner deserves some good news!!

Fingers crossed for the wee man, Carol!

<'>

 

Esther x

[Kazzen161]

I think my two son's AS has a genetic origin (their Dad has mild AS traits).

 

Maybe something to do with the immune system too - their Dad has diabetes and alopaecia - both auto-immune diseases.

 

After the MMR, T got a little patch of excsma (sp?), which he'd never had before.

 

Karen

[supersec]

Hi all

 

a question for all of you.

 

My son was diagnosed as autistic in June this year. He will be 3 in September.

 

My hubby is convinced that before he had his MMR he was "normal" (and I use the term loosely) and that since he had the MMR he developed Austism. My questions is: when he is due to have his next lot of MMR is this going to make matters worse or will he stay the same. Has anyone else had this type of experience/query? I am in two minds to have him innoculated if he is going to be worse off having it, but then again i think he should be immunised to stop him getting a disease that could lead to brain damage/blindness/infertility etc etc.

 

Any advise would be greatly received although i know that there is no real answer but your thoughts would be great <'>

[CarolJ]

supersec I know the MMR caused my son's autism. The change in him was dramatic and I have video tape and photographs of him before MMR and video tape afterwards. He had a developmental test 2 weeks before MMR and no concerns were raised, in fact he was thought to be ahead of his milestones and was socialble happy smiling chatty little so and so - he was given another one at 18 months because I was so worried about him. My HV thought he had gone deaf because he would not look at her or respond. In short she was shocked at the change in him. I accused MMR and told her it was the JAB. She just said there was no proof and I said my son is sitting here in front of me, he is the proof!

 

For me there is no question that he will have the MMR booster. My exact words to the doctor was I would rather throw him off a cliff than give him the MMR booster. He would stand a better chance of surviving the injuries he would sustain. I told my HV to remove my son from the reminders vaccination programme all together.

 

The reason I know he would react is because my daughter at 4.5 had MMR booster. She deveoped problems with her balance, her speech deterioriated, she had problems with toileting ie she would not ask to go to the toilet and was very withdrawn and just screamed (she was in her own little world) and would just wet and mess herself. In fact she fell and hit a head a few times and I had to take her to A&E. I had a visit from HV saying their had been reports about me from the playgroup she attended and because of the hospital visits (the above signs also point to abuse!). She had had original MMR at 12 months and was just starting to walk and was chatty. She stopped walking and developed a bum shuffle and did not walk again till she was 18 months. I had a sneaking suspicision but dismissed it beacuse I had had along labour with her so thought perhaps it had something to do with that. That is what I was told by doctors and like a fool I believed them.

 

Even at 4.5 I was not sure and thought perhaps it was just a phase, one of those difficult stages kind of things. It took the vaccination of my son and the dramatic change in him to realise that the real reason that my kids have now got problems.

 

In short the decision is yours, scott has had mumps and had atypical measles directly following his MMR. He may have had rubella but since he always getting rashes, non specific illnesses I may have missed it. Both my kids seemed to suffer from ear infection, throat infection, tonsilitus etc etc and were given antibiotics (big mistake on my part) which further compromised their own natural immunity in short they were "sickly" for want of a better word. As time has gone by their health seems to have improved apart from the bowel problems they both suffer with.

 

Measles in a healthy child is not the killer disease that the DoH would have you believe. It is more dangerious to adults and people or children who have underlying illnesses ie leukemia. I would take my chances with the natural diseases any day of the week.

 

At the moment my son has chicken pox and I am glad because he will develop his own immunity (and he is doing okay apart from the scratching) - my daughter also had chicken pox and experienced a developmental growth spurt afterwards. I am hoping my scottie will do the same.

 

As you can see I have very strong views on this subject and have researched the subject indepth,. If you want any info. I have some good literature, just PM me with your email address and I will send it to you.

 

Your husband is probably right about his observations - many people have this niggly doubt about the changes in their child post-MMR. They were fobbed off with autism does not show itself until 18 months but that doubt just does not go away. Autism can take months years to manifest itself after an event. Trust your instincts, you knew and know your child better than any doctor.

 

Sorry, I bet you did nto want to know the life history but I wanted to explain why I have the views I have.

Edited August 25, 2004 by CarolJ

[Elanor]

Hi Supersec

 

I think that your dilemma is shared by many here. From the sounds of it you have plenty to deal with at present ? just adjusting to the diagnosis, let alone the due date getting closer.

 

I think that its probably very unlikely that your son would suffer any substantial risk of serious illness if he misses the booster ? or even if you delay it for a while until you?ve got your thoughts sorted out. Just don?t fret about it ? it probably doesn?t matter enough in the scheme of things for you right now.

 

As for the causes of your son?s autism, I think that you said elsewhere that your husband is in denial ? it?s probably hard for you to make much sense of it. Lots of people here have recognised autistic traits in other family members (me, my dad, brother, cousin, grandad) ? which probably points to a genetic connection in my family. What about your family ? any clues there?

 

I think that if you were to ask the world?s leading experts in autism why your child is affected, they wouldn?t be able to say. Personally, I?m sceptical about the MMR link, because I?m not convinced that the scientific evidence is anything more than circumstantial and scanty ? but that is not to deny the changes that parents like Carol have observed in their children.

 

Of course it?s your decision in the end, I just think that if you decide against the booster, it wouldn?t be the end of the world.

 

Elanor

[CarolJ]

Supersec Elanaor is right in that aspergers in particular seems to have a strong genetic link.

 

Did you son have late onset regressive autism, in that he appeared to undergo a period of regression after MMR after sustained "normal" development? This is what happened to my kids.

 

Generally these kids are low functioning (my son certainly is), my daughter does not appear to have been as severey ffected thank god but she is still delayed and has developmental delay and a cognitive abiity of half her chronological age.

 

Elanor hun I have a question, do children with aspergers appear to undergo a regression. This is one thing I hve been curious about. Do they at any stage seem to lose prior skills and regress noticably with onset of physical symptoms like dirroeah.

[nellie]

My son was diagnosed with ASD by Pat Howlin, I am happy with this diagnoses, he does not have classis autism or asperger and I?m not sure I would class him as high functioning, in fact I?m not sure what high functioning means. High functioning compared to what? Learning difficulties? Doesn?t everyone on the spectrum have a learning difficulty in some area. Someone could be a professor in maths but could have severe difficulties in other areas. Some people on the spectrum need to be taught a certain way, and may fail if that need is not identified.

 

I can only guess the cause of my son?s difficulties. He had problems at birth and had to have an emergency exchange transfusion. I think this was the cause of his minimal brain damage, but I still believe he would have been on the spectrum even if this hadn?t happened, as I am sure he has inherited his ASD. There is another reason for my son?s difficulties and that is the damage done to his well being and mental health, caused by lack of understanding, lack of appropriate education and lack of appropriate health care. This damage is as severe as the damage done at birth and I?m not sure he will ever recover from it.

 

If you took away the damage at birth and the damage done to his mental health I think my son would be just like his father, who is diagnosed with Asperger syndrome.

 

Nellie.

[mossgrove]

Our eldest (6)has been doagnosed with Aspergers. His behaviour/development was a cause for concern from quite an early age but I couldn't say that there was a regression. Most of the males in my family (Including myself) have aspie-ish tendencies so I am pretty sure the root cause is genetic.

 

Anecdotally, there doesn't seem to be a clear link established between MMR and Aspergers and related (so-called) 'Higher Functioning' Autistic Spectrum Disorders. I don't really know of many cases where a child with Asperegers has 'regressed' at all,whether or not the child has had MMR. It seems that the issues are there from the outset. There is overwhelming evidence that MMR can trigger a severe regression in some children. What we don't know for certain is whether the regression was 'caused' or 'triggered', which is where more research is certainly needed.

 

Simon