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Gardenia

Hand flapping

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Tom flicks his fingers in front of his eyes, and spins like a top. It helps keep him on an even keel. If 'society' has a problem with this innocuous behaviour - nae luck!

 

Tom doesn't do much hand flapping, not that I would discourage it anyway.

 

The only foible that is causing a bit of discussion in the Martian household is his habit of shedding clothes at the drop of a hat. Mainly, he enjoys wrapping himself in blankets and duvets, giggling like a banshee in the process. My feeling is that as long as it's in the house and not in the frozen food aisle in Asda there is no harm.

Edited by Martian Martian

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Kyle likes to spin round. I am amazed how long he can do it for without getting dizzy or being sick!! If I spin him round I have to stop after 30 seconds!

 

He also flaps and jumps up and down at the same down if he's very excited (usually about doors and hinges!!)

 

I don't try and stop him, it's never occurred to me to stop him.

 

He also runs up and down the room screaming and yelling really loudly (happily) I do sometimes try and stop him doing that, only because he's very loud and it's a pain if you're having a conversation or trying to listen to the tv!!

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Watching Pete in the Big Brother House has been a revelation to me. This show may well be full of geeks and freaks but they 'ALL' appear to have accepted Pete warts and all because the way Pete is is part of the person he is. He may not have AS but he can verbally stim for England guys.

 

Unless a stim is the beginning of an outburst of aggression then where is the harm in it? Especially in their own homes. My eldest with AS did not stim at all until he had his breakdown and then he flapped for England and not just his hands. He looked as if he was about to take off. However he eventually decided himself that it was not cool to flap and found something else to do like firmly placing his hands in his pockets :( He wanted to do this and it worked for him. Now he justs steps from foot to foot when stressed. If he did not then that would only increase his already high levels of anxiety. Matthew blows on his fingers when he is nervous. Would it make him less nervous if I stopped him from blowing on his fingers. Sorry folk but to me doing that would be downright cruel.

 

Question - Would we take a wheel chair away from a child in Centre Park so that they looked normal and fit in? What is it with wanting people with autism to look normal and fit in. An inability to accept the disability perhaps :(

 

Oracle

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My point exactly carole, just because Autism is a different disability doesn't mean it shouldn't be accepted, I know my friends and family when I am out with them will point out (verbally usually) if another child is stimming, but I seem to have become immune to it. Like someone said to me last week that a friend of mine who was born extremely early walks differently, TBH I had forgot, and couldn't remember how he walked, he's the same person inside regardless to how he walks.

 

Thing is in the society we live in 'acceptance for all' will never happen. If you are small, tall, thin, fat, disabled, a different colour, religious, whatever it may be there will be some who don't accept you. Then there comes a choice, do you spend the rest of your life worrying and trying to change it, or focus your energy on spending time with people who do accept you.

Edited by lil_me

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Then there comes a choice, do you spend the rest of your life worrying and trying to change it, or focus your energy on spending time with people who do accept you.

 

I agree that we shouldn't worry about it, but I completely disagree that we stop trying. Shouldn't we always be trying to change the attitudes of people we come into contact with? If we all do it, it will make a difference - eventually!

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I have never stopped my boys stimming.

 

My youngest, L does the job lot! hand flapping, jumping up and down,rubbing his hands together, facial grimices and now chews everything in sight! It does'nt bother me, i even join in with him sometimes!

 

The eldest humms, finger flicks and does other "different" things with his hands, we do say " T" (his name) to him now as he's 15 now just to let him know, but he did'nt start to do it until he was around 13.

 

I personally dont think we should stop are children stimming, but thats my opinon. x

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Excellent posts Lucas and Lil me....

 

an asd adult told me that they were 'trained' not to stim and so they stopped, but all they did was switch their stims to internal ones that no one could see - which sorta makes me feel they had to find a coping strategy to cope with how their loved ones coped with their coping strategy :blink:

 

by the same token, how YOU feel is how you feel, and if you are uncomfortable your child/other children/viewing public will know that, so there has to be a balance somewhere - I'd imagine you are too tired to put the whole world right every day in every way, so

 

maybe a nice balance is to support your child with reducing stimming in situations you feel might limit their social interaction but always make it clear they can stim as much as they want at home/in the car? But you'd definitely need to understand what they were 'getting' from the stimming so you could help provide subtle alternatives to help them self-regulate their stress levels while out and about or in exciting situations - because thats probably when they'd need them most?

 

Have we got any sensory dudes out there who know how stimming 'feels' and can suggest ways to replicate the jumpy up and down flapping stim (my son does this constantly when he watches TV or when he gets excited - he also does joint compressions on himself so I dont know if that does the same thing?)

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Question - Would we take a wheel chair away from a child in Centre Park so that they looked normal and fit in? What is it with wanting people with autism to look normal and fit in. An inability to accept the disability perhaps :(

 

Oracle

 

Spot on Oracle.

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I forgot to say - I dont stop my ASD son stimming, but interestingly I do stop my NT daughter sucking her thumb (as do her school). Zoikes! Now I've got double standards to feel guilty about on top of everything else!

Edited by MumTee

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Sucking thumbs can cause damage which is why I would stop mine if they did that, but they don't. My friend is now 30, she has one thumb much smaller than the other and false front teeth, all because of thumb sucking. I think we as parents know where to draw the line. But for the record my sisters 26 and I still catch her sucking her finger (she sucked her little finger when she was told not to suck her thumb)

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The only foible that is causing a bit of discussion in the Martian household is his habit of shedding clothes at the drop of a hat. Mainly, he enjoys wrapping himself in blankets and duvets, giggling like a banshee in the process. My feeling is that as long as it's in the house and not in the frozen food aisle in Asda there is no harm.

H loves stripping and wrapping himself up in blankets like sausage rolls, when he's sausage rolling he's not ripping my living room to bits so i prefer the sausage roll.

 

Clare

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Sucking thumbs can cause damage which is why I would stop mine if they did that, but they don't. My friend is now 30, she has one thumb much smaller than the other and false front teeth, all because of thumb sucking. I think we as parents know where to draw the line. But for the record my sisters 26 and I still catch her sucking her finger (she sucked her little finger when she was told not to suck her thumb)

 

 

I've been sucking my thumb for near on 38 years :whistle: Thumbs have survived and teeth intact thankfully :lol::lol::lol: Mum bless her tried everything to stop me.....never worked :rolleyes: Think she's given up now :lol::lol::lol: I found it easier to give up smoking than my thumb :lol::lol:

 

Hmmm, maybe not a good idea admitting my thumb sucking on a public forum :ph34r:

Edited by Bagpuss

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I was once told that stopping my daughter sucking her thumb was tantamount to child abuse (by someone on the NHS Direct line I might add) - very emotive language to use I thought....

 

(...I'll just add I was a first time mum and she had chickenpox and one of the scabs on her thumb was infected, which was why I phoned them - not just to ask a random thumb-sucking question! :D )

 

The dentist said it wouldnt harm her baby teeth so I let it continue thinking it would reduce as she got older - it was only when school said she couldnt that I (feeling like the worst mother in the world as usual) thought I'd better help her cut down! Honestly - just cant get anything right :huh:

 

We've gone right off track, sorry Gardenia!!!

 

p.s. Good on 'yer Bagpuss!!

Edited by MumTee

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As far as teeth go my dentist has told me that sucking your thumb can not damage your teeth even if you did it all day. It would require other circumstances which would make it seem like thumb sucking was a co-incidence in line with the loss of teeth. It is the same mentality that makes people believe cracking your knuckles causes arthritus(it isn't even cracking).

 

You would have to have awful oral health to lose teeth from sucking a thumb.

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I had no idea that thumb sucking was bad. As a child I chewed everything in sight, my clothes were a mess and I sucked my thumb until I was married. My mother did all she could to stop both to no avail. My dd is our middle child and even before she was born I knew she was sucking her thumb. When she emerged we found that not only was it her thumb but her forefinger also all very neatly arranged in the roof of her mouth. She is almost 21 and she still does it. I never stopped her, and when others expressed disapproval I always told her Mummy loved her and to suck her thumb all she wanted to. The dentist describes my dd and my teeth (we are very alike physically) as the most perfect he has seen . Neither of us has been a candidate for orthodentistry. Sorry to go somewhat off-topic.

 

Yoyo

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Lucas says:

 

'I for one know that hand-flapping raises core body temperature and makes my skin feel tighter, like having a hug without unwanted touches and pressure in the wrong places. People know that sometimes they need hugs and a person that never gets hugged can develop all kinds of problems, there isn't any reason to believe that the case is different with something like Autistic people and hand-flapping.'

 

Thanks for that Lucas, it always puzzled me why one of our pupils rocks and flaps so much. He is very sensitive to touch and doesnt accepts hugs or kisses even from his mum. Now I know he's probably giving himself a 'safe hug.' >:D<<'> No wonder he looks so happy and I'm glad we've never stopped him.

 

Oh dear, I still havent got the hang of quotes, why haven't I got I nice quote box like other people? and I had to put in my own quotation marks on. It must be because I've got one of these :robbie: hopping inside my head instead of a brain :blink:

 

SV

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My daughter has braces and the orthodontist told me her problems were caused by an orthodontal dummy she had until she was 3!!!! She told me that it is much better for a child who wants to suck to use their thumb rather than a dummy, and particularly the orthodontal dummies are the worst.

 

Lauren

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I taught a dance workshop last winter at a community centre to a special needs group and one very tactile sensitive boy demands to smell everybodys head. I thought of it as a handshake and decided to smell his head back which seemed to suprise him, I don't think people think to sniff him back.

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Stephanie, I don't think anyone has 'caned' you??

 

Other people have just expressed their opinions, which perhaps differ from your opinion.

 

Bid :(

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Stephanie, can only speak for myself but I wasn't offended, I just happened to disagree with what you said which is different from being offended.

 

Lauren

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I felt the replies were getting a little weighted' in one direction too - it's like taking your life into your hands sometimes making a post - especially if you're new and/or feeling tender (speaking for myself anyways)!!

 

Keep on posting - I hope this forum is primarily for supporting each other, regardless of the different methods we are all using or not using to get from one day to another.

 

Everyone is entitled to our opinion!!

 

:dance:

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:blink: Oh gawd - when I say 'our opinion' I mean all of our opinions, not just mine and anyone who agrees with me!

 

just being a bit para now........

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No one meant to upset you Stephanie, it's just that there is massive evidence of harm when it comes to eliminating stims and many of us belong to that group waiting for someone to give one good reason why stimming is wrong.

 

I won't berate you for what you believe, but I'd like to know why you believe it.

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OK, I don't feel like I need to justify it, but as you asked ..

 

Firstly, he has HFA and I understand that everyone on this forum is different and are at different places on the spectrum. I also know that the severity of the stims differ person to person.

 

My son stopped flapping at home and school because we asked him, and now he has stopped completely and no longer even attempts to. He only did it when he was excited by something - now he just laughs without jumping or flapping. He doesn't have any current stims apart from pacing about a bit when he is trying to recite something. He has had a few other stims here and there, all shortlived and now departed. I know that they may come back in one form or another.

 

I'm glad he stopped flapping because it was the one thing that made him look physically different to others, and he was getting mocked for it. It was cute at first, then when he got to 5 it made him stand out.

 

Yes I know it's terrible that people make fun of it, that is life - whether you are fat, thin, red haired, spotty, black - whatever, people single you out for your differences. Ie, we all remember kids at school mocking others doing the old "Joey Deacon" spastic thing - yes it's awful, horrid and vulgar, but people (especially kids) can be cruel. I would say most of us are still guilty of it although due to our own circumstances, we may have modified our thought processes.

 

He is going to grow up into a world where he isn't socially accepted, he is likely to be bullied, picked on and made fun of, he is only 5 and at an age where changes can be implemented easily. I just want to do everything I can to make his life as "normal" as possible, to reduce the bullying, to educate him and to encourage him to express himself appropriately. At the same time, I do embrace his differences, and

wouldn't want to change a lot of them, and know that I would never be able to anyway.

 

I honestly don't think he misses flapping at all now or was bothered by stopping.

 

I was just responding to the question asked, and my reply was that I was in favour of stopping of the flapping. It's my opinion, I stand by it. What's the point of expressing a lie or keeping quiet as to not rock the boat??

 

I can relate to the fact that it is not harming anyone and that I shouldn't care about what people think blah blah ... but I do, I can't help that - human emotional response. As far as me not accepting the fact he is ASD, well maybe I haven't yet, and I'm still learning. I'm not a person who just accepts "that's the way it is and you can't change it" without at least trying.

 

I think we are all trying to educate and moderate the behaviour of our children in some way, where possible, ASD or not.

 

Like I said, he is 5, we have a hell of a journey ahead of us, he might start flapping again tomorrow, or worse, who knows.

 

Just give me a break, I'm trying! :tearful:

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I agree with Stephanie and maybe right or wrong I will tell ds to stop flapping as he understands what I am saying. If I thought he was extremely anxious/upset without his stimming I may well be thinking otherwise.

 

I too would like to live in an ideal tolerant world but what is ideal to one may not be to another.

 

I think children do like to fit in and that is whysome opt to get our children to wear braces because there teeth are crooked or ears pinned back etc.

 

I appreciate all who posted very thought provoking

 

Gardenia

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My DD flaps almost constantly and some times I do have to intervene as she seems unable to do what she needs to do and stop them herself, ie gets so excited on the computer she can't click the mouse for the flappy hands :blink:

Anna x

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Stephanie, you are totally entitled to your opinion. Please don't think anyone was getting at you, I think people were just expressing their own views and I know that during any discussion if yours is the one that stands out as being different it can make you feel like you're being 'got at'...(not 'you' personally, I mean 'one')

 

It just so happens that this particular subject is an emotive one; people have strong views on being allowed to express themselves and allowing their children to express themselves, whether negatively or postively.

 

You certainly do have a journey ahead of you, as all parents on this forum do and we're all at different stages of it.

 

When my boys were younger and newly dx I probably had similar desires for them to be normal and appear normal. Now I don't, I am very defensive of their right to be who they are. I think that there is a very very fine line dividing two objectives which are; controlling challenging and/or antisocial behaviour, and allowing a person to 'be who they are'... It is very easy to cross that line and everyone has a different opinion of where that line is. To me, it's a question of acceptance; if you accept someone for who they are you soon figure out the important areas in which to intervene, and the ones that don't matter, but again, that is down to personal perspectives.

 

Lauren

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As an adult, I stim everywhere and my supposed level of functioning or place on the spectrum is irrelevent. As an adult, the only people who try to bully me for it are those who are far more socially repugnant than I. It's they who get slated publicly when they choose a soft target to make them feel better about themselves. Which is why a defeatist attitude towards intolerance and public bullying gains little but gives up much.

 

I do not see why I should stop stimming because immature children or utter losers think they can score points with it. I do not see how the important function played by stims somehow becomes unimportant because such willfully ignorant people say so.

 

A stim is not even a behaviour, what you see when you look at a stim isn't even a small fraction of what is really happening. No one can say that they or someone else doesn't stim: everybody stimulates themself, but Autistics do it differently. When made to stop, they do it in private and often don't know they're doing it. In institutions, staff persist in making it stop for good and as Kanner was first to notice- it made Autistics disintergrate. Their age was irrelevent and their assumed level of functioning was irrelevent(though it certainly became worse).

 

I won't say any more, but I think you should try going a while without your Neurotypical stims and see what it does to you.

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hmmm, I think I'm also guilty of parental double standards. Like MumTee, I don't generally stop ds (AS, aged 10) rocking or flapping (well, unless maybe he's holding a drink at the time). But I'm currently trying to stop dd (aged 4, presumed NT) from constantly chewing and biting her tongue -- it's as if she's got a wodge of gum endlessly on the go, it makes her speech hard to understand, and it drives me mad.

 

The thing is, when ds was 4, we didn't know he had AS, so we came down on him too hard for all sorts of things that he in fact needed to do. Maybe, just maybe, the littl'un needs to chew up her own face?

 

Aarghh!

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What is important is the reason why she us doing it. Is she deliberately trying to cut her tongue? Is she actually chewing her tongue or just holding it between her teeth or running it along her teeth?

 

Even when it comes to self-harm its important to know why they're doing it first.

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It is the adults with ASD that have helped me to understand that stimming is not something to be stopped just because it looks odd. There is usually a reason behind a stim and I know with my youngest that certain stims actually help him to concentrate.

 

My own journey has been to develop shared meanings and understandings with my sons. I want to understand my sons and I want them to understand me. It's a two way street in my opnion and that is what I strive for. They are going to live in a mainstream world and I would like them to understand why people will think they are odd if they walk around flapping.

 

I do get very heated and apologpise but there are some disabilities that it is impossible to hide like Downs for example. If you ave a child with Downs then everyone knows it. I spend my life campaigning for more awareness and understanding so that professionals like teachers actually believe that they do have a bona fide disability and are not made to fit in just because they look like every other kid in the class. Not all kids with ASD are fortunate enough to be schooled within a specialist school or placement.

 

Oracle

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I won't say any more, but I think you should try going a while without your Neurotypical stims and see what it does to you.

 

Lucas who were you saying that to? I hope it wasn't me because I was defending the right to stim and to epxress yourself in any way you like. (you didn't name who you were directing the post at)

 

I was trying to mellow the tone of my post because I didn't want to upset anyone but if it meant that my post was misunderstood then I'll be more clear.

 

I actually think it's cruel and counterproductive to stop someone from stimming. I think it hugely crosses the line between reasonable intervention and forcing someone to conform and be 'normal'. But that's just my opinion. I stim when I'm nervous, excited or happy and can totally understand why my son stims and even recognised the reasons for it before he was dx and before I knew anything about autism.

 

Lauren

Edited by Lauren

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my son stims.......he hums ,taps ......and does a flappy type prance.I have a few quirks to........dare I admit.I twitch my toes........twitch my muscles in my legs...........tap my back teeth in a ryhthm or tune.But I really like his quirks .........kids take the pi** out of him.........call him spacko and weird .....but they are the sheep........me and my boy have a right laugh.......we even dance/stim together......and he says I,m weird.

Edited by Suze

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Hi Lucas,

Well, today I tried asking my 4-yr-old why she chews her tongue, and she said, 'I don't want to, but it's all squodgy and it squodges between my teeth and then I chew it.' Then she suggested she could just keep it sticking out instead (I can see that idea going down well at Playgroup!).

 

Not sure how much more explanation I can expect from a 4-yr-old, so I think I'll just back off for a while unless she's really hurting herself. Thanks, anyhow,

L

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I had the pleasure of hearing Roz Blackburn speak and she told us a true story about something which happened to her, which is either really sad or really inspiring - depending which way you look at it? I was inspired.

 

She has been sitting flapping away with the ducks in a park - remember Roz is an adult but ducks are her thing - and a group of kids decided to take the p**s. They shouted over to her 'Hey Spaca' to which she responded 'Wrong Diagnosis try again!!!!!!!' We all laughed ( about 150 people in all ) and maybe we should have been shocked because it is shocking. BUT the morale behind the true account was that Roz is happy in her own skin and with who she is. If other people have a problem with her flapping then she sees that as 'their' problem and not hers. I want my two to be happy in their skin and with who they are. I am not ashamed of them and love them both stims, loud gobs and all. I will however help them to understand that people can be darn cruel.

 

We laugh at autism in our house and we laugh at those of us who are 'NT' we are totally un-pc when it comes to autism making statements to each other like 'A bit autistic that is mind' but it's enabling my sons to cope with anything that others may just throw at them. I don't want to suppress them I want to empower them and I am truly sorry if that offends anyone but it's my opinion and I too am entitled to it.

 

Oracle

Edited by oracle

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That might be a good idea as she is not intending to harm herself. This is a tactile stim and she will stop it if she does hurt herself for sure.

 

Lauren, I wasn't even directing that comment at anyone in particular and reading it now it may be better if I clarify. I would ask that anyone who thinks stims are not important, or not so important that they outweigh social concerns try identifying their own stims and see how long they can go without doing them.

 

Most modern torture methods don't involve hot pokers but sensory deprivation and ceasation of stimulation. Stims can include any simple thing which feels natural to make yourself comfortable like crossing your legs when sat, folding your arms, hands in pockets, scratching an itch, blinking, humming, stretching, the way you eat your food, reminiscience, reading, contemplating, etc.

 

The only way you can not stim is to reduce everything you think and do to mechanism, models and plans. No one is a machine and no one should be made to act like one.

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Can I ask a completely genuine question?? I'm really worried that it will be taken as a 'dig' at some parents, which it truly isn't...just something that I would genuinely like to understand more...

 

Can I ask Stephanie, Gardenia and other parents who stop their children stimming their opinion of what people who are actually on the spectrum say about the importance of stimming?

 

Please, please don't see this as having a go, I am genuinely interested in understanding more.

 

Bid :bat:

Edited by bid

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