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Gardenia

Hand flapping

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I would still like to understand what is so unacceptable about hand flapping?? :unsure:

 

I flap when I'm excited or stressy, and I've managed to totter through life thus far without anyone saying anything! :lol:

 

Bid :bat:

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I would still like to understand what is so unacceptable about hand flapping?? :unsure:

 

Bid :bat:

 

Me three :ph34r:

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Well I,ve compensated for any type of odd or strange type behaviour that my boy :wub: may display , by being even more strange , odd and weird than he is .(apologise,s for the words strange , odd, weird , I personally don,t believe they are this......I,m referring to the majority of the nt populations perception of them ). So I,ve found that if I am more noisy, :rolleyes: , odd, weird and strange no one bats an eye lid at my boy, they,re too busy clocking the weird mother/adult (???).....beside him, my top tips for grabbing the limelight ..........and steering away the stares from my boy are,

1. singing "you are my sunshine , my only sunshine, you make me happy!.......why skies are grey .....you,ll never know dear how much I love you (sung louder )......please don,t take my sunshine away ..

2.skipping

3.shouting.. what you looking at? .... have I got a chicken on my head???(good for busy supermarkets well it works for me ?)

4.When my boy gets a bit flappy I do too.....we do it together

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I would never stop both my boys stimming, to be honest we never really notice them doing it now as they

do it so much. Other people obviously notice and friends always comment "there at it again" to which I just laugh and ignore it. As a lot of other members have said how else can these children release there anxieties and excitement, surely its better flapping than screaming!!!! As my eldest has got older (now 11) he obviously notices that he does flap and spin around and he gets quite embarressed when he is with his friends at school about this, he has learnt to control it by putting his hands in his pockets to stop the flapping and this has also helped with the spinning, but when he gets home he can jump, spin, flap to his hearts content.

 

Anyway as Suze says as parents if we do it as well (especially when a helicopter arrives!!!!! - our joke) then people focus on the adult and not the child then it just looks as though we are having a good time with our kids.

 

lets all stim together I say and don't worry about what other people think, there the ones loosing out.

:fight:

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As my eldest has got older (now 11) he obviously notices that he does flap and spin around and he gets quite embarressed when he is with his friends at school about this, he has learnt to control it by putting his hands in his pockets to stop the flapping and this has also helped with the spinning,

 

This is what happened with my eldest AS son. He eventually decided to try and stop flapping and spinning in public himself. That meant he 'understood' that what he was doing looked odd to others. Once he understood he did something about it himself. At the moment the youngest blows furiously on his hands most of the day. He looks like he's squaring up to go 10 rounds with someone but it's just something he does when he is hyper. Playing out makes him hyper.

 

Did anyone hear what Pete on BB had to say to Nikki (who throws a better strop than my two any day of the week) last night? After she had behaved appallingly after someone had 'stolen' (her perception) her cake and a bottle of beer, she asked him why he had stood up for her and was trying to comfort her? He replied that he understands that she can not help her tantrums. He told her that it would be the same for him if someone told him to stop tic-ing or shouting out or grunting, he just could not stop it because it's a part of who he is. Profound words, in my opinion, from someone who is taking part is a show which is likened to car crash TV. So that means lots of people will have been watching. Hope they were listening to Pete ;)

 

Oracle

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I would never stop both my boys stimming, to be honest we never really notice them doing it now as they

do it so much. Other people obviously notice and friends always comment "there at it again" to which I just laugh and ignore it. As a lot of other members have said how else can these children release there anxieties and excitement, surely its better flapping than screaming!!!!

lets all stim together I say and don't worry about what other people think, there the ones loosing out.

:fight:

 

Talk about screaming instead of stimming my son had to go to the drs this week, we were there an hour or so and after we had to go to the chemist to get his medicine so all in all we waited about 1.5hrs. He was so frustrated with all the hanging about when he came out of the chemist he let out an all mighty "FINALLY" which did not go down too well with the person standing next to him who nearly drop his shopping, and something else in his rods. I was laughing so much i could not apologise for Keegan scaring the man, i just said he is letting off some steam been waiting a while.... :lol:

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Guest flutter

me 4 :bat:

i think the only stim i would divert would be a hands doon trews job?

i do the divert too , but dont think i choose to just me lol

C x

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The person in my family who stims the most is my 9 year old son, and he isn't even autistic!

 

He runs up and down jumps, makes facial grimaces, wiggles his fingers, jams his fist into the side of his mouth and hums (not all of them at the same time!). Usually he does these when he's very excited.

 

Last year I was called into school because the teacher "had concerns about his behaviour". I thought there was something really terrible going on and was so relieved when I found out it was only his stimming. I told her that it was a good sign that her lessons were stimulating, as he only did it when he was excited. However, she decided to call in the EP to observe him because "I've never seen a child do these things before and he shouldn't be doing it." There were no concerns about his work, social behaviour or anything else, school has always been a smooth ride for him and this was the first time any teacher had said there was a problem.

 

The EP took the view that it was just him and he should be let well alone, and his teacher this year has been lovely and has just accepted him, stims and all. I gather he's grown out of some of the more disruptive ones anyway (like "machine gun" noises during carpet time!)

 

It's extremely ironic that my son still has an IEP because of this (and the extra attention that goes with it), whilst my autistic daughter who really struggled all the way through school never even got this level of help because she hid her stims and was quiet and did not draw attention to herself. :wacko:

 

People who know my son well barely notice his stims, when I describe them they say "Oh, that's just him!" I'm fairly sure that he'll learn to regulate some of them by choice as he grows older. His dad also stims - he hums and flaps his hands rapidly when he's excited (he literally buzzes!) He only does this in private though. Sometimes he has caught people looking at him strangely, and realised he's humming quietly.

 

I've lived with my family's stims for so long that I can't imagine them being any different! :wub::)

 

K x

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Made my mind up today watching my son in the school grounds, luckily I can see from my window.

 

They had a climbing wall there today, he didn't want to go on but got very excited jumping up and down like Tigger and flapping his arms and spinning. My first thought 'Oh he stands out so much' Then one by one I seen over half of his class join him. Was so lovely to see, they didn't do it as much as him but were all bouncing. They don't seem to think anything different of it and seemed to enjoy copying. I even spoke to his LSA and she said they do it quite regular, they are very supportive of him and just see it as thats who he is.

 

So my answer is, wouldn't stop my Tigger having his bounce as thats what Tigger does best. :wub:

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How interesting,

 

I never realised that M was stimming. Didn't realise that was what it was called!!! Am I totally stupid!

 

M is 6 and we are still awaiting assessment. He when he gets excited will flap his arms whilst jumping up and down and panting. i have never stopped him and after reading this thread never will. Yes he gets some strange looks at school when he does it but it's just part of him and I wouldn't want him any other way.

 

mum22boys

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How interesting,

 

I never realised that M was stimming. Didn't realise that was what it was called!!! Am I totally stupid!

 

 

mum22boys

 

Not totally stupid at all!!!I'd never heard of the word 'stimming' until I saw it on this forum either :D

 

I don't particularly like the word but it serves a purpose when there is more than hand flapping going on.

 

 

Lauren

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Well said Lucas. My son stims when tense. He rocks. He is aware as people had commented. He now sits on his hand or taps his foot . At home we just let him get on with it. I used to work in an open plan office with a colleague who was undx but clearly on the spectrum ( his son also had suspected AS). To let off steam he would pretend to be an airplane and "fly around the room" noises and all - we just let him get on with it. He also did lots of "noises" which he didnt seem to realise he was making - possible Tourettes and had quite marked facial twithes. It was be a boring world if such people were not allowed to do this. As someone said what is "normal" . I think if you watch a football match some of the beahvious by the players after scoring a goal are weird - but who would dare suggest that they are "abnormal" Vive la difference.

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Gardenia, who thought such an innocent question could have brought such a large response??

 

It has been interesting to see everyones comments, thoughts and preferences.

 

I'd be interested to know how you get on.

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Well Stephanie I know we are in the minority here but here goes.

 

I will stop my son from doing any stim which I find inappropriate for his age or location. I would also stop my older son doing any of his NT stims which I thought to be unacceptable also. I was asked by a member to stop my stims for 24 hours befor inflicting my decision on to others. But as a parent of two young boys my decisions are put on to them as I am the parent with responsibilty for them.

 

Openyoureyes has said her 11 year old is now feeling embarrassed about his hand flapping and puts them in his pockets, so we know its not all people with ASD comfortable with their stimming. I might be wrong here but if my son has stopped his hand flapping from an earlier age will it not be easier than trying to get him to stop when he is older and is more aware of others.

 

If I think its needed I will offer my son another 'stim' or let him know there are some things he can do in the privacy of his own home.

 

Then again a parent knows their child better than anyone and would know whether or not stopping their child from doing any 'stim' is a good thing or not.

 

I was going to try and rise above this but I also think that Lucas' comment to Baddad was downright rude and showed no respect for others opinions. I honestly think that if a non- autistic person had said the self same thing there would have been a furore.

 

Gardenia

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I think we all have to do whats we feel is right for our own kids.My concern for my boy was if I stopped his stims he would feel that he had been doing something that is wrong.His general demeanor is quite delicate so he would have felt bad about himself and felt his autism was to blame yet again :blink: .I have a friend whose son licks his lips and chin making them sore.........a nervous type stim........she of course has tried to divert his anxiety into another stim that isn,t going to make his chin raw and sore.We must all do what we feel is right and best for our kids, we all want the best for them,suzex.

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Yeah but remember, just because we are in the minority doesn't mean we are wrong. Show me someone who thinks they are a perfect parent, and I will show you a fool!

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Sorry :( I did,nt say you were in the wrong, in fact my point was similar to yours in that we must do what we feel is right for our kids, they are all so very different after all , and I,m certainly no perfect parent far from it :rolleyes: .Hope me earlier post did,nt upset you in some way , suzex

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You may be a parent Gardenia, but that wouldn't give you the right to hold either of your boys heads underwater and that is comparable with the stopping stims. Which is why I would suggest you see how long you can go underwater before you make that decision for anyone else.

 

People make rude comments to me all the time, usually without knowing. If I've made any such comments myself, I don't know of them.

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You may be a parent Gardenia, but that wouldn't give you the right to hold either of your boys heads underwater and that is comparable with the stopping stims. Which is why I would suggest you see how long you can go underwater before you make that decision for anyone else.

 

People make rude comments to me all the time, usually without knowing. If I've made any such comments myself, I don't know of them.

 

A parent drowning or pretending to drown a child compared to stopping or redirecting a stim, rightly or even wrongly, with good intentions? :huh: I don't understand, I can't see that example as comparible at all. Could you clarify Lucas?

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A parent drowning or pretending to drown a child compared to stopping or redirecting a stim, rightly or even wrongly, with good intentions? I don't understand, I can't see that example as comparible at all. Could you clarify Lucas?

 

I will when your version of what I said reflects more what I actually did say.

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Guest flutter

i think lucas may be trying to say that our kids "need" stims as much as they need air?

and this is coming from personal prespective, i assume ?

i have an adult asd friend who often explain why, to suppost me and mine and when they do it all makes sense?

soz if i got wrong tho lucas

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You may be a parent Gardenia, but that wouldn't give you the right to hold either of your boys heads underwater and that is comparable with the stopping stims. Which is why I would suggest you see how long you can go underwater before you make that decision for anyone else.

 

People make rude comments to me all the time, usually without knowing. If I've made any such comments myself, I don't know of them.

 

I'll rephrase it Lucas. As a parent, I would like to know how does my not having the right to hold my child's head underwater (which prevents breathing) compare with stopping stims (that doesn't stop them breathing )? Do you have another less inflamatory example that can reflect what you mean, to me as a parent?

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Flutter got it. You need air to function which you can't find underwater. You also need self-stimulation and the stims that Autistics do are done for specific and important reasons. When you try to stop them you are dismissing those reasons when you know little about them.

 

Leo Kanner realised very early on that institutions made Autistic residents disintergrate on the inside and it all comes down to how staff handle stims which they deemed unacceptable. But an Autistic doesn't have to be in an institution for this to happen, it can now happen and does happen at home when they are young.

 

Once upon a time prisons were extremely horrible places and the amount of control exerted over the behaviour of inmates by the system was extreme enough to replicate mental-institution standards and prisoners often became insane. Life sentences didn't start out as life means life, they were only supposed to be a few decades should a stay of execution be granted but once a prisoner had gone mad they could never be let out. The death penalty was far more humane in those times.

 

Bruno Bettelhiem based his refridgerator mother theory on the fact that he had witnessed the same behaviour he saw in Autistic patients that were found in prisoners in Nazi extermination camps.

 

I'm sorry that I have to use inflammatory examples, but I only have to because the idea of controlling another person's self-stimulation even if they are a child and you are their parent is sickening and inflammatory. Try going without any self-stimulation yourself for a while.

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Flutter got it. You need air to function which you can't find underwater. You also need self-stimulation and the stims that Autistics do are done for specific and important reasons. When you try to stop them you are dismissing those reasons when you know little about them.

 

Leo Kanner realised very early on that institutions made Autistic residents disintergrate on the inside and it all comes down to how staff handle stims which they deemed unacceptable. But an Autistic doesn't have to be in an institution for this to happen, it can now happen and does happen at home when they are young.

 

Once upon a time prisons were extremely horrible places and the amount of control exerted over the behaviour of inmates by the system was extreme enough to replicate mental-institution standards and prisoners often became insane. Life sentences didn't start out as life means life, they were only supposed to be a few decades should a stay of execution be granted but once a prisoner had gone mad they could never be let out. The death penalty was far more humane in those times.

 

Bruno Bettelhiem based his refridgerator mother theory on the fact that he had witnessed the same behaviour he saw in Autistic patients that were found in prisoners in Nazi extermination camps.

 

I'm sorry that I have to use inflammatory examples, but I only have to because the idea of controlling another person's self-stimulation even if they are a child and you are their parent is sickening and

inflammatory. Try going without any self-stimulation yourself for a while.

 

 

 

I might not like it Lucas, but I could go quite some time without self-stimulation if I really had to, but I will only last a few minutes without air. I don't agree its comparable.

 

I really don?t understand your postings. Are you suggesting that parents who choose, for whatever reason, to stop or redirect specific stims are comparable to those who hold their children?s heads underwater, to staff who behave badly in institutions in order to control inmates, or that our choices have relevance to Bettelheim?s discredited theory based on what he had witnessed in the Nazi extermination camps? :blink: The Leo Kanner opinions you quote related to staff handling stims in institutions, not to a parent trying to handle them, for whatever reason, in the context of a loving home environment.

 

I agree with you that stims are for a reason, and should be accommodated as much as possible to reduce stress. But as a parent, my first choice is to try and reduce stress so that some stims might be dropped voluntarily. Then I?d accommodate those stims that don?t make a child?s life more difficult in other areas. But I?d redirect any that do, if I thought they would ultimately lead to more stress to my child. That?s parenting.

 

Have you any helpful or relevant examples, or at least less inflammatory ones than holding heads underwater, institutions and death camps?

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My son used to flap his hands a lot until his classmates began to imitate it and laugh at him. They called him a freak and other names. I never told him to stop his hand flapping but he doesn't do it anymore, now he wrings his hands and bites them, and what is worse, his constantly rubs his eyes. This is no longer stimming but self harm in my view because he is blind in one eye. This weekend it got so bad that he got a bad infection in his good eye and he could hardly see anything. :( I'm not sure, but I have the feeling that his self-harm is related to not stimming anymore. In our case it was not the parent who stopped the stimming but peer pressure, with very bad results for him. I agree with Lucas that the " stims that Autistics do are done for specific and important reasons. When you try to stop them you are dismissing those reasons when you know little about them."

 

 

Curra

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Can't believe this one is still going!

 

I think kids go from one stim to another, my sons are usually short lived. He hasn't suffered as a consequence to stopping his flapping in fact he has just moved on from it without looking back.

 

His present one is messing around with the Sky remote control, forever going up and down, putting things into personal planner etc etc - drives me totally nuts!!! I'd take that over flapping anyday though.

 

Now when he gets excited, he just laughs, without any other type of non verbal communication.

 

As for peer pressure to stop, well I discouraged my son from flapping just as other kids at school began to notice, he is only 5. I think it is not really seen as so much of a problem in younger kids as they kind of look cute when they are jumping up and down, flapping and getting all excitable but as they get older, they start to look more noticeable and the behaviour seems inappropriate for their age. I noticed at the playschool nativity play when all the kids were sitting there nicely and laughing and my boy was up giggling, flapping, dancing around etc etc, totally going for it.

 

I also thought Lucas going on about the holding head under water thing - being able to flap, being able to breathe etc etc was a bit much too.

 

Suze - you didn't offend me at all (as per my PM).

 

I think we modify all of our childrens behaviours in some way, "don't eat with your mouth open", "don't pick your nose", "tidy your room", "say thank you". "don't bang the door shut", "tuck your shirt in" ....

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You may be a parent Gardenia, but that wouldn't give you the right to hold either of your boys heads underwater and that is comparable with the stopping stims. Which is why I would suggest you see how long you can go underwater before you make that decision for anyone else.

 

People make rude comments to me all the time, usually without knowing. If I've made any such comments myself, I don't know of them.

 

 

Irrelevent and ridiculous comparison Lucas.

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It isn't irrelevent and ridiculous until you yourself have been deprived of self-stimulation.

 

If you want to claim it's irrelevent or ridiculous, do me the service of saying why it is.

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Without the lack of air my son would die. I don't think the same outcome will happen if I stop my by from hand flapping and giving him a more acceptable stim.

 

I don't want my boy to get in a state of self-harming himself as he has decided to control his stimming because of his peers taking the mickey out of him. I'd rather give him an alternative while he is still young and give him the option to stim in private.

 

Gardenia

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Lucas, do you not think a more accessible comparison might be 'giving up smoking'?

 

I too would agree that your comparison with drowning is OTT - you can 'redirect' the act of stimming into something else - If there's anything else you can redirect the act of breathing into (other than 'dying') I've yet to learn what that is...

 

The former might be hugely unpleasant (as is giving up smoking, or any of the 'stims' - nail biting, hair twiddling, etc - that NT people indulge in), but it is not life threatening, No matter how much more intense the experience might be for people with AS.

 

 

L&P

 

BD

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I would never hold my childrens heads underwater, however, in certain circumstances I would try to stop or distract my ds from stimming when it is inappropriate. Some of it provokes comments from other people, leading to more stress on him, through bullying ect. I don't get the comparison to drowning someone.

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Are we going to have a go at Lucas now? I can see his point even if it is a tad OTT. This is a no win argument because there are those of us who believe that to stop a child with ASD from stimming until they themselves have the ability to understand is cruel. There are those of us who believe that as the parent it's their choice for their child.

 

One day all of our children will be adults with ASD and we may not like the way they express their opinions. That does not mean that what they are trying to say is not valid. I do not always agree with Lucas myself, although on this ocassion I do. However I hope that whenever I have a disagreement with him I never state that what he has to say is irrelevant because it's not. It's his way of expressing himself and sometimes you may have to re between the lines. I would have hoped that parents who have children with ADF themselves would understand this. I know that my two are often far from clear when trying to make me understand something.

 

Oracle

 

 

Oracle - sorry, I may have misunderstood, but i don't think anyone here is 'having a go' at Lucas... I'M certainly not, anyway, so if I was included I'd ask you to re-read my post again.

I'll PM you on my other concern over your post.

 

L&P

 

BD :D

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Oracle I said Lucas' comparison was irrelevent not what he has said, although Lucas is the one who has said that he challenges people. The way I have read the posts it is Lucas who is having a go at other members because he does not agree with their opinion.

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gosh.........this discussion, is definitely getting me thinking.These are just my thoughts........the hand flapping etc is a very visual way of realising that a person or child is different .But this isn,t the only visual behaviour that set,s my son aside from his peers.What got me thinking about this was someone mentioned in a post about the nativity play and their child flapping.My son stuck out like a sore thumb at this years nativity and not from flapping.He stood dressed as a king frowning big time and scowling the whole way through. :( I felt terribly sad , because there was a church full of people thinking "whats his problem"????.I think my point is .......that as much as we would,nt want our kids to be mocked, teased etc for their behaviours,were just not going to be able to stop that.The way forward should an acceptance from society of everyone who is different.Sadly this ain,t gona happen any time soon.The kids in my sons class imitate him......his walk etc...............it really gets to me but if he did,nt do that it would be something else..........

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:crying::crying:>:D<<'> Sorry Suze, I understand what you are saying! I just didn't like the comparison with drowning. My DS is a nose picker, which is why I try to distract him, he cannot stand blood and one thing tends to lead to another and we have a major melt down.

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this thread is very thought provoking, haven't posted until now. I just wish I understood MORE. Why my son does the things he does. I most of the time try not to stop his stims. Sometimes if his noises have gone on too long/become too loud when he is on the trampoline I ask him to keep it down a bit for the neighbour's sake and he is happy as long as he can still jump. Mostly I just leave him to it.

 

Elaine

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You would have to be applying a gross double-standard to say that I am having ago at others but they are not doing the like.

 

Air is neccessary to function, stims are neccessary to function though deprivation of either will cease different functions. You cannot 'give' a person another stim, Bettelhiem and Lovaas tried and failed miserably to do so.

 

I tolerate different opinions, but I do not tolerate certain actions. To challenge an abhorrant action though a person must challenge the premises and justifications of it which is more often than not opinions rather than evidence.

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Thumb sucking is a stim ...

 

We stop kids from sucking their thumbs why? teeth? germs? No - we stop older kids from sucking their thumbs because they look ridiculous, it is seen as embarrassing and not socially acceptable. We let them do it at home though!!! Loads of people suck their thumbs to comfort themselves, when they are tired, worried etc ... but not in public!

 

I feel the same about flapping.

 

Don't get me wrong, I am not at all against thumb sucking by anyone, I am just trying to draw more of a comparison than the drowning your own kids thing. :lol:

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