lisa35 Report post Posted June 3, 2006 Im sure someone here may be able to help! My son isnt very good with eye contact- he also has aud processing problems and we ve been told to get him to look at our face when we want to tell him something (ie nose or mouth, not eyes) Now, tonight a little light bulb appeared for me- when we do this he often responds angrily- maybe its because we are forcing eye contact , even when we say look at my nose?? However, it does help when he looks at us cos more than not he ll do what he s been asked! This isa difficult one! Any clues? Ta Lisa Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
elainem Report post Posted June 3, 2006 Hi, I am no expert but if he has auditory processing problems it might make understanding language more difficult if you insist he looks at you as he has to then concentrate on 2 things?? I know when my ds is thinking he looks away out of the corner of his eye and doesn't focus on us. Maybe give it a try and see what happens. Elaine Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lisann Report post Posted June 3, 2006 Probably going to get a few people's backs up but we took hold of Char's face and said look at mummy,daddy etc when we where talking to him.Looking back it wasn't the best thing to do we had no idea at the time he was ASD.he has now learned to look in between our eyes for a few seconds when you talk to him.I don't think we should make them look at us because I have heard of older ASD people saying how it makes their eyes burn and it is very hard for them to do.As long as he is listening does it matter that he isn't looking at you???? Lisa x Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bagpuss Report post Posted June 3, 2006 (edited) Maybe he's finding it difficult to focus specifically on any part of your face?? What about asking him if he could try looking just above your head?? We were told recently by a lady with autism that it worked for her (but think that could of been as an adult, rather than a child). Think Elaine raised a valid point too, in that he could be finding it tricky to focus on two things at once. Sorry i couldn't be more helpful. Edited June 3, 2006 by Bagpuss Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Flora Report post Posted June 3, 2006 Personally I don't agree with forcing eye contact. Neither of my boys are comfortable with eye contact, and they hardly every look at the person talking to them. Like your son both of mine have visual and auditory processing problems. William's teacher used to force demand he looked at her when she was talking to him and he told me that when she did that he didn't understand a word she said, her words just sounded like random noise. Who has told you to make him look at you when you are talking to him? Do they have experience with ASD? Lauren Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bid Report post Posted June 3, 2006 Ooooh, this is one of my 'soap boxes'!! It drives me mad when I see 'to make eye contact' as a target in the paperwork of some of the young adults I work with!! Why don't these people actually ask autistic people how it feels to make eye contact?? Maybe if they did, they wouldn't be so quick to force the issue! I find it hugely difficult to make eye contact, but as an adult I think I have perfected various quick glances in the vague direction of the other person's face, etc...but prolonged eye contact (apart from with people I'm very, very close to) is an absolute nightmare I also find it hugely difficult to concentrate on what is being said to me if I have to make eye contact, because I'm busy worrying about it and feeling awful Plus, if I look at someone's face, I get side-tracked from the conversation by tiny details, such as how their eye brows grow, etc. Aaarrgghhh...it's making me feel all tizzley just thinking about it!! Bid Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
baddad Report post Posted June 3, 2006 Hopefully soon there'll be just enough understanding about that people will just be able to laugh at the 'conventions' and just explain that the whole issue of eye contact detracts from the conversation from their point of view. I think people are less bothered by it when they know WHY it isn't happening because without that openness they assume it's the other person not wanting to engage with THEM rather than not wanting to engage in EC... Apart from which, it's a good excuse for looking down a pretty girls cleavage all night L&P BD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lisa35 Report post Posted June 4, 2006 Thanks all- we were told not to make him look actually at our eyes- but to focus on part of our face- I must admit it does work in getting his attention Somoene suggested tapping our own mouth or chin to get hi m to focus ion it? The person that said to do it did say about eye contact being a problem and thats why to make him look at tlips Thanks all lIsa Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stressedmumto2 Report post Posted June 4, 2006 My son is either a lookaway or a complete glare. When he was very little (toddler) it was mostly look away I used to kneel down to him so I was his height and just gently cup his chin in my hand when I wnated to talk to him and get his attention and it works now and he is comofrtable with looking at eveyone after a couple of minutes. <'> Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ian Jordan Report post Posted June 4, 2006 Eye contact problems often indicate a visual processing problem that can be resolved / made easier in seconds. It can be cruel to force it if the child cannot process the facial information adequately, but it is possible to change processing in most cases without discomfort. All children who exhibit eye contact, emotion or facial recognition difficulties will have a visual processing deficit. I will be giving a small number of lectures suitable for parents demos this year which will address the problem - and others that parents of children with ASD should be aware of.(similar to those seen on My family and Autism - only many more effects) dates planned July 8th Wokingham (2 hr presentation - a basic intro) Sept 20th lincoln (daytime course includes full demo and many other areas of interest to parents 4-5 hrs - charge) evening 2hrs small charge Sept 25th Norwich - only short talk (preparation for World Autism Congress) Sept 26th Gloucester - similar to Lincoln These presentations are suitable for parents / teachers (but not children) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lynden Report post Posted June 4, 2006 We dont force Logan to make eye contact but if we did hold his face etc it wouldn't matter as instead of turning away he just closes his eyes LOL Lynne Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lynden Report post Posted June 4, 2006 Eye contact problems often indicate a visual processing problem that can be resolved / made easier in seconds. It can be cruel to force it if the child cannot process the facial information adequately, but it is possible to change processing in most cases without discomfort. All children who exhibit eye contact, emotion or facial recognition difficulties will have a visual processing deficit. I will be giving a small number of lectures suitable for parents demos this year which will address the problem - and others that parents of children with ASD should be aware of.(similar to those seen on My family and Autism - only many more effects) dates planned July 8th Wokingham (2 hr presentation - a basic intro) Sept 20th lincoln (daytime course includes full demo and many other areas of interest to parents 4-5 hrs - charge) evening 2hrs small charge Sept 25th Norwich - only short talk (preparation for World Autism Congress) Sept 26th Gloucester - similar to Lincoln These presentations are suitable for parents / teachers (but not children) Ian - do you every do talks/workshops in Scotland? Thanks Lynne Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ian Jordan Report post Posted June 4, 2006 I am working on a project in Scotland with a LEA / university so I am up on a regular basis. (not directly connected with ASD). I await an invitation(s). The ideal is a professionals meeting (4-5 hrs) + parents / carers meeting (2hrs) in 2 days but I don't have time to organise anything myself. I have only done a few talks North of the border in the last few years that weren't private, one the International Special Educational Needs Congress, the other one for the Psychologists conference. I lived in NE Scotland until around 7 years ago (on Moray Firth) and miss it a lot, so it does not take a lot of persuading to get me up again. I will be in Scotland again in 2 weeks - I am helping with a presentation at the occupational therapists national conference in Cardiff on 22 Jun / giving lecture in York at conference 24 / 25 and meeting in Aberdeen on 28th. Travelling back to be at medical school in midlands for research on 30th! Things are generally hectic for me - but i don't think I work half as hard as the parents of children with ASD, I usually get some respite! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
oracle Report post Posted June 4, 2006 In my opnion the professionals advise parents to get their child to look at any part of the face because it makes the adults that is talking to them feel better. I have actually been told this. Some Outreach Teams tell children to try and look at the teacher so that the teacher 'thinks' that they are listening to them Which means we are meeting the needs of the 'NT' adults and ignoring the fact that for the ASD child it can be traumatic. Neither of my two sons with ASD can multi task so it's either looking or listening and I go for listening everytime. If you could hear what my 19 year old tells me looking at faces does to him then you would not even go there B Oracle Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gladysmay Report post Posted June 4, 2006 Eye contact problems often indicate a visual processing problem that can be resolved / made easier in seconds. It can be cruel to force it if the child cannot process the facial information adequately, but it is possible to change processing in most cases without discomfort. All children who exhibit eye contact, emotion or facial recognition difficulties will have a visual processing deficit. I will be giving a small number of lectures suitable for parents demos this year which will address the problem - and others that parents of children with ASD should be aware of.(similar to those seen on My family and Autism - only many more effects) dates planned July 8th Wokingham (2 hr presentation - a basic intro) Sept 20th lincoln (daytime course includes full demo and many other areas of interest to parents 4-5 hrs - charge) evening 2hrs small charge Sept 25th Norwich - only short talk (preparation for World Autism Congress) Sept 26th Gloucester - similar to Lincoln These presentations are suitable for parents / teachers (but not children) does this affect eye sight or am i completely off track?? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gladysmay Report post Posted June 4, 2006 Ooooh, this is one of my 'soap boxes'!! It drives me mad when I see 'to make eye contact' as a target in the paperwork of some of the young adults I work with!! Why don't these people actually ask autistic people how it feels to make eye contact?? Maybe if they did, they wouldn't be so quick to force the issue! I find it hugely difficult to make eye contact, but as an adult I think I have perfected various quick glances in the vague direction of the other person's face, etc...but prolonged eye contact (apart from with people I'm very, very close to) is an absolute nightmare I also find it hugely difficult to concentrate on what is being said to me if I have to make eye contact, because I'm busy worrying about it and feeling awful Plus, if I look at someone's face, I get side-tracked from the conversation by tiny details, such as how their eye brows grow, etc. Aaarrgghhh...it's making me feel all tizzley just thinking about it!! Bid Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gladysmay Report post Posted June 4, 2006 my sons ieps always said 'improve eye contact'. he has always found it hugely difficult to make eye contact and sometimes isnt even facing me with his body either, he has struggled with this, sometimes makes eye contact but is then staring and people find this just as upsetting. we have got used to it but i am interested to know how his visual/or other processing is affected? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
annie Report post Posted June 4, 2006 I agree with Oracle. It's a matter of who's need are we trying to meet . When my son was at school, it used to cause him so much stress if the teacher insisted on him looking at them. It normally resulted in a meltown. Slighty off topic, but Alex always takes his MP3 player everywhere with him, even in lessons. He gets stressed and can't work when others talk or there are outside noises, but works without any problems if he has his MP3 on. Annie xx Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ian Jordan Report post Posted June 4, 2006 (edited) To force someone into eye contact when it can be distressing, painful or disturbing needs a significant benefit to justify it. It can be compared to forcing someone to walk on a broken leg! However, if it is possible to see a face comfortably easily and without distress then it is appropriate to let the person CHOOSE whether they want to, this is often posssible. The important thing is that there is a choice. This effect is related to prosopagnosia - see earlier posts As for other visual processing effects - they are numerous in these cases. Edited June 4, 2006 by Ian Jordan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
oracle Report post Posted June 4, 2006 Annie David carries his MP3 player EVERYWHERE and Matthew takes his DS. Now while other parents may consider this to be somewhat anti-social I know that they both use these pieces of technology as a coping strategy. That means that they understand that they need help in coping and surely that is good news Well that's my take on this and it does make me feel so proud of both of em Sometimes for David just having his MP3 player with him is enough these days. Oracle Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
oracle Report post Posted June 4, 2006 Ian I am a tad concerned that Matthew is insisting that I am the double of Dawn who was ejected from the BB house given that she and I do not even share the same colour She is better looking than me and younger Any news about happenings in the North East yet. Oracle Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gladysmay Report post Posted June 4, 2006 (edited) To force someone into eye contact when it can be distressing, painful or disturbing needs a significant benefit to justify it. It can be compared to forcing someone to walk on a broken leg! However, if it is possible to see a face comfortably easily and without distress then it is appropriate to let the person CHOOSE whether they want to, this is often posssible. The important thing is that there is a choice. This effect is related to prosopagnosia - see earlier posts As for other visual processing effects - they are numerous in these cases. I think the word CHOICE is right but would a child do something when the parent asks them to try to just as all children do, to please them. however, i also feel that as my son is 19 i have to ask the question about the whether the benefits outweigh the cost i.e. would he achieve greater happiness in the longer term from this intervention. at 19 he is i feel old enough to make a choice but still the AS does also impede his choosing ability, its a really tricky question. i do want him to have good life chances, they way people interact with him is part of how he feels about himself, he is very aware when people do treat him 'funny', i know it is the other people who are at fault, playing into convention and all that, i will think on this. quick edit - obviously being aware of being treated in a certain way sounds like its contradicting AS, I mean in the way that he is not invited to stuff by 'so called' friends, unsuccessful interaction. Edited June 4, 2006 by gladysmay Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
annie Report post Posted June 4, 2006 You've summed up exactly how I feel Oracle Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ian Jordan Report post Posted June 4, 2006 Ian I am a tad concerned that Matthew is insisting that I am the double of Dawn who was ejected from the BB house given that she and I do not even share the same colour She is better looking than me and younger Any news about happenings in the North East yet. Oracle Start a list - a practice is on the cards in the NE in the near future. Can't say when or where but it won't be long Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
oracle Report post Posted June 4, 2006 Start a list - a practice is on the cards in the NE in the near future. Can't say when or where but it won't be long I already have the list - just wanted a few words from the wise for my next newsletter, which I am sorting out next week thanks Oracle Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LizK Report post Posted June 4, 2006 We've been advised not to force eye contact either but suggested we get DS to look at foreheads or ears fleetingly instead if he finds that more comfortable which seems to be ok for him. I too am of the opinion that he shouldn't be forced to do something he finds unpleasant simply to make others feel better or to be 'normal' though do accept there may be times in his life when making better eye contact might be beneficial for him. He does make eye contact sometimes and if he does he tends to listen and take things in better but it's chicken and egg isn't it? If he's more settled or relaxed he's more likely to respond better so maybe finds eye contact easier. Tbh the quality of his eye contact is more a barometer of the inner turmoil he is feelings at times I think. Lx Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jayjay Report post Posted June 4, 2006 Our son tends to look at us for about 3 seconds then looks anywhere but at you, we havent forced the issue and the school dont seem to have a problem with this so we have let him be, also going off thread Oracle what you said about your sons with the MP3 player and the DS our son is exactly the same he carries his gameboy everywhere with him and if we go to relatives houses he is allowed to take his playstation which i have to say he is also taking too Portugal in 4 weeks when we go it calms him down just knowing that he has them with him and if he wants to play with them and chill out we let him. jayne xx Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
asereht Report post Posted June 4, 2006 (edited) MY youngest son K ( AS) has difficulty making eye contact ,in primary school before dx this was seen as bad manners an constantly brought up with him, and us. My older son( NT) told K that he also didn't like to look directly at someones eyes when talking to them and learned to look at some place between their eyes ( or elsewhere on their face)and make it look like he was making eye contact , K said he tried this but found it just as difficult. K then grew his hair long and hid behind it,he was out of school for several months and attended an adolescent unit,where every week his written task was ' take hair out of your face so we can make eye contact when we talk to you' ??!!! Used to make my blood boil. Edited June 4, 2006 by asereht Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Richt Report post Posted June 4, 2006 I hate making eye contact unless I know the the person very well, have lots of coping mechanisms to make it look as if I am looking at them directly when I'm not. Eye contact makes me feel very uncomfortable. The guy who dx'd me asked if I could look at myself in the eyes in the mirror (which I can and do) - he seemed to think that was unusual. My peripheral vision is pretty good, but I'm very bad at recognising people I don't know well (I have an idea that they are familiar, but I can't place them) My opinion R Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheNeil Report post Posted June 5, 2006 I don't want to sound like some sotrt of NT-basher but why the <insert rude word here> should NDs be encouraged to make eye contact just to make other people more 'comfortable'? Eye contact has always been a massive problem for me and I simply don't do it as it makes me feel very, very uncomfortable (admittedly it's made me a world expert on shoes but... ) I'm dreadfully sorry if someone feels uncomfortable if I'm not looking at them all of the time while they're talking at me (and I can understand why they think I'm being rude and inattentive - I can't help it though) but I prefer to listen to what they're saying rather than have to ignore what they're saying and concentrate on making them feel 'comfortable' Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
