Looking for autistic traits

[mum22boys]

Hi,

 

I have been thinking for some time about posting this but keep trying to take my mind off it. However as someone has just started up a tread on second child lining toys up I have decided to ask you all some questions.

 

My eldest is 6 and being assessed for an ASD. My youngest is nearly 3 and starting to worry me. He has always had odd routines to follow and is now getting worse. He gets very angry if I touch him particually when we are out. If I do as I worry when we cross a road he screams and has to go back and do the steps again before I touched him, then he is ok. If I refuse to let him do the steps (when we are crossing busy roads) he will cry and repeat over and over ' I want to cross the road again'. I try to tell myself life is hardly normal for him growing up with M but these are things M doesn't do. He also out of the blue will insist we don't look or speak to him. i don't know if it is normal for a 3 year old to be like this or not.

 

Today I took him to a garden centre and he noticed the hut father christmas sits in. He repeated over and over he wanted to see father christmas. i took him back to the hut to show him he wasn't their but still he screamed. When a lady spoke to him he shouted 'shut up lady' and screamed over and over 'shut up mummy'. Whenwe queued he shouted at the man in front to stop looking at him (he wasn't). Once this was over he started his other thing of requesting fresh water. I have to re-fill his beaker over and over all day to get him fresh water otherwise he screams.

 

Am I looking too deeply. It is so hard not to when you have one possibly on the spectrum. The other thing i must point out is that M does not insist on re doing things and although my youngest could have picked up the anti-social signals from m he certainly hasn't picked the other things up from him.

 

Any one been here and done it? Can anyone share with me their experiences of their subsequent children. R is having a 3 year development check done later this year which i will mention these things if he is still doing them.

 

mum22boys

[Mummy21]

((((((hugs m22b))))))

 

I haven't any experience of this as J is an only child, but I didn't want to read and lurk......... I am sure a more knowledgeable person will be here to give loads of advice........

 

I can only empathise how difficult it must be for you, and I know how hard it is not to question every movement and quirk.

 

Good Luck M22B

 

Joanne xxxx

[Suze]

hi mum22..........it,s so so hard to say yes that sounds like autism, but they did ring a bell with me and my boy at that age.Hope it,s o.k. to say that, but please remember if your worried please talk to you dr or health visitor get things checked out.suzex <'>

[Bullet]

With Tom it's not the odd traits he has, because NT children can have those, it's the things he doesn't do that made me notice something was different. He won't look at you for a reaction if he sees something unusual. He won't draw your attention to something. He doesn't understand the way talking works, that if someone asks a question they want a response. He will never talk TO anyone. He doesn't respond to any attempts to praise what he's doing, or feel the need to involve others in what he's doing, other than to use their hand as a tool. He doesn't call out for attention, he's happy to be left alone and unless he decides he wants a hug or some food or drink others have to initiate contact. He has no fear of strangers. He can recognise numbers 1-20, shapes, some letters and do large peg puzzles and simple jigsaws but is unable to follow even one step instructions unless accompanied by gestures and often pictures or the object. He shows no empathy and everything is clearly for his own agenda.

[jb1964]

Hi Mum22boys,

 

Bullet has put it in a nutshell - my 12yr old daughter has only recently been diagnosed and although I've always thought she was different and did lots of 'odd' things - it was only when she was going through assessments that I realised all the things she didn't do and the things she didn't understand - we'd grown to accept her differences as just being her - but as she's got older the differences have become so much more apparent.

 

I am constantly worrying about my 3yr old as she is so similar to my AS (12yr) daughter in many many ways, routine, questioning, fussy eater, and loads of other things - but she is also so different in the things that she does do (if that makes sense).

 

Take care,

Jb

[LizK]

Conversely with my second ?NT son it is the NT things he does do that my older son never did that make me think he is more or less NT. So he might like playing with doors and his speech might be slow but he has great joint attention and can communicate well nonverbally. His first words were 'useful' words like 'more' 'all gone' rather than categorical nouns. He is slightly obsessed with doors but will often play peekaboo with them rather than simply opening adn closing them repetititively. I may be wrong and DS2 may end up on the spectrum, he's still very young but at the moment there is a different feel about him

 

Lx

[joshanddanfans]

i have posted to explain my brood in other thread. when we took m to pead she said asd or not she is genetically alike to her brothers and will therefore have some traits wether enough to diagnose no one knows yet. it does my head in when people say to me they are immitating all three of my children have diff symptoms, the diagnosed asd boy does not line things up, the middle child hand and finger flaps the other doesnt so these are not copied behaviours.all i can suggest is take notes and explain your concerns to health visitor. i have also been told by a gp friend they are taught that if a parent has a concern they should listen as we know them best.

[KATHY BLAIR]

My oldest daughter Rachael- aged 7 has Aspergers and was diagnosed aged 4. When my little one was 3 I used to really worry about her - the playgroup had some concerns also. I spoke to Rachael's paed and she agreed that there were some unusual behaviours. She saw her for a Griffiths test and everything turned out okay. She said she could understand my concerns and it was impossible to know whether she had picked up some of the behaviours or whether she would have had them anyway. She was able though to show me areas where she was definitely not exhibitng signs of ASD - communicating and socialising. The concerns I had were mainly routines, accepting change and so on, which as part of normal development 3 year olds have problems with.

 

She had sensory problems and to be honest still does - so do I! There are times too when I would still swear there was something even know I know there is not. The other day, at a friends house, she got some strawberries, she sniffed them and pointed to the one she wanted, but would not touch them and was talking in a very strange voice. I have to accept that this is the way she is - either because of her sister or not.

 

She is 4 now. I know she has not got ASD - but she may have sensory processing difficulties. Time will tell!

 

If you are worried get some help - either way you will know then.

[Lucas]

It doesn't sound at all like Autism to me. Autism does not = bad behaviour and they should never be equated with each other.

 

I can't tell you anything really because you've told me what your son does but nothing to indicate why he does it. Autism is not what I do but the reason I do it, which is why there is no such thing as 'Autistic behaviour'.

[Bullet]

Ds1 is mostly very well behaved, his tantrums aren't that common. Consequently because he is so happy and content most of the time it is hard to remember sometimes that he does have intense problems understanding and communicating. Or maybe I'm the one that has the problems, he's probably thinking "for crying out loud, just use xx or xx"

[mum22boys]

Lucas,

 

No where in my post did I indicate my child has bad behaviour. His behaviour i was pointing out is unusual. I and most people i know do not insist on re-tracing their foot steps if they are touched, to me this is unusual behaviour NOT bad behaviour.

 

I also DID NOT say that because I have to re-fill his beaker over and over that he is bad. I understand with my eldest child that the things he needs to do are for a reason, although I do not always understand why.

 

Because I mentioned his behaviour in the garden centre this also was not me indicating he was bad. Most children will accept something after a while. My youngest son has trouble with this, that is what I was trying to get through. In this incidence I saw some of my elder childs behaviours.

 

I resent you saying that I indicated my child has bad behaviour. I am a parent who is constantly up the school trying to get the staff to realise that my child is not bad but has different ways of seeing things. I believe I am a very good parent who is trying my hardest to get others to see that M's behaviour is not bad, so please don't judge.

 

Whether you believe it or not, I do believe there is autistic behaviour but I don't think it's bad behaviour.

 

This time Lucas you have really upset me.

 

mum22boys

 

p.s how on earth do I know why he does the things he does. He's 3 years old and some times I can't even understand what he's saying to me! I still can't always understand why my 6 year old does the things he does.

[Bullet]

I don't think your ds is badly behaved Mum22boys. But from what I could understand of what Lucas is saying is that unusual behaviours are not the whole aspect of autism or autistic spectrum disorders. Does your three year old have problems with communication or interaction? What is his imagination like? Is it absent or present but seems unusual?

I hope you get some answers about your lad, I remember how worrying it was not knowing what to think.

[darky]

hello there :-) i agree its very hard NOT to look at ASD in other syblings. i have 2 kids dx with an ASD and i have an older boy who is "nt" however as time has gone on i have definately noticed AS traits in him, especially obssessions and "different" social interaction.

what you have written out there, to me COULD indicate some OCD with having to re trace his steps etc. what i did notice, which is just my opinion only and i wouldnt want to offend at all, that some of it seems that he may be trying to control a situation, almost with his screams. i got the feeling in the post that his screams seem to hold a little bit of power over you, and im not saying that is wrong, we all like to try and avoid tantrums!

its difficult to say whether or not he may have traits of ASD, but to a certain extent all kids do until they reach the age of about 5 and the theory of mind kicks in.

like others said, keep an eye on him and mention everything to your health visitor at least your concerns are logged.

[Daisydot]

Dear Mum22boys

 

I've been up the school so many times too, trying to get them to understand that my child, who has a diagnosis of ASD, is not behaving badly, but is autistic. The number of times I have heard from the school and some other parents that you cant use autism as an excuse for bad behaviour. Our school regularly threatens autistic spectrum children with exclusion without having put in any support for the autism, simply labelling it bad behaviour.

 

My two kids are both diagnosed with ASD yet they are as different as chalk and cheese. I think you should discuss your 3 year old with your health visitor and GP, and ask to be referred to a paediatrician if you are still unsure. I didnt have a clue either of mine were on the autistic spectrum until much later, and I think a much earlier diagnosis would have helped us cope and support the ASD much better than we did.

 

Good luck

Daisydot

[mum22boys]

Bullet,

 

Thanks for responding.

 

I think we will have to agree to disagree on Lucus' comment as I feel he is clealy stating I said autistic behaviour = bad behaviour.

 

R's communication is not brilliant. I mean that socially. He will say to people that talk to him either 'don't talk to me' or 'shut up'. I do see differences between both the boys, as when R comes out of pre-school he will say goodbye to the teacher. M never did. Yes, he could have picked up these poor social skills from m but as anyone with more than one child will know it is hard to say what is learned behaviour.

 

R is also VERY sensitive to noise. Lately he walks around with his hands over his ears saying it's too noisy. With M he is sensitive to smell.

 

R is also very attached to me. Hubby said yesterday he feels R is obsessed with me. He won't have anyone do anything for him except me. Although if I can't do it he has to accept it is being done by someone else, although he screams about it. He has taken to following me everywhere and holding my hand every opportunity he gets. I know he could be going through a phase and I will just have to see.

 

He plays better than M and that is one thing i am grateful for as M never really plays. So perhaps his imaginitive play will be ok. Very hard when you have nothing 'normal' to compare to. R has his parents evening this week at school. He still screams when i take him and it will be interesting to see what they say about his character.

 

I try to tell myself I am blowing everything out of proportion but deep down I know some of the things he does aren't right for normal development. Although that I know does not necessarily mean he will be on the spectrum.

 

Thanks all so far for your replies

 

mum22boys

[Lucas]

Ok, next time you say something I'll just pretend you didn't.

[mum22boys]

Lucas,

 

Please tell me where in my post i said autistic behaviour = bad behaviour.

 

Now I know from m that he has trouble reading the bigger picture and he is unable to extend his imagination further than what is in front of him so I feel for someone who is autistic you are very lucky in having the ability to do that.

 

I am not getting into an arguement with you Lucas as I know what I said and I do not think autistic behaviour is bad. You, it appears seem to be upsetting quite a lot of people with your mis interpretations of their posts. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but I will not have you tell me that I said something i didn't.

 

We as parents of children that are on the spectrum are doing our best at understanding our kids and trying to help them in what ever way we can. Please don't make it look like we don't care a less.

 

mum22boys

[Jill]

Mum22boys. First of all ((((big hug)))). It must be so hard to not see autistic traits in a second child & I know you just want some advice cos the earlier dx the better for the little uns.

 

I think someone on this thread has suggested you keep a diary. I think that's a really good idea. Every time something occurs that gets your "antennae" up, you could write it down. After a week or so you may then have a better idea of whether you think you are worrying unecessarily or not (seeing it all together in black and white). At that point you can decide whether you want to go for assessment.

 

Sometimes I think you get that you cannot see the wood for the trees & we all want what is best for our kids, so we want to know as early as poss so we can start and help them appropriately.

 

The trouble is that a lot of "autistic" behaviour really could apply to the vast majority of 2, 3 and 4 year olds - which is why I agree with Bullet - I think it is the things our children do not do, rather than the things they do do that give us the idea about whether they are on the spectrum or not.

 

Hope you get this sorted mate. Take Care.

[lancelot]

Getting back to the original quetion-- are they copying older siblings' behaviour -- I had this conversation with littl'un's preschool leader this week. We were discussing E's refusal to do things, shouting 'NO!!' as a first repsonse, avoiding the other children, doing it all 'her' way...

 

Her verdict was 'E does what C used to do, but she doesn't do it for the same reasons. C couldn't join in because he was overwhelmed, and his behaviour was telling us that. E can join in, and does when we insist, but chooses not to. Just bl##dy-minded, I'm afraid.' (I should mention that I've known this playleader well for many years -- I don't think she generally describes kids that way!)

 

Frankly, the difference between mine seems to be that no bribe in the world could make C conform to things he CANNOT cope with.

 

HTH

L

Edited June 26, 2006 by lancelot

[Lucas]

Please tell me where in my post i said autistic behaviour = bad behaviour.

 

Please tell me where I said that you said that.

[Stephanie]

Yeah it was me that posted about the lining up toys thing.

 

You see, the things you have said are totally different from the things either of my sons have done.

 

I am totally paranoid, always looking for traits ... I have found 3, lining up toys, walking on toes. fussy eater ... but he's only 18 months so I have to wait. Other than that, he is the most sociable, lovely, cutest baby ... points, shows me things ... does all kinds of things my other son never did like say "mine", call me "Mummy", copy body movements, sings etc - I can really see the difference in the two of them. I didn't see anything different about my first son because at that time I had no comparisons to make, now I have another child, I can see the differences.

 

I think we look too deeply sometimes. Don't forget that some behaviours may be copied too.

[KATHY BLAIR]

Mum22boys,

 

I have posted earlier but what you are writing about your son could have been my younger daughter at that age, and with her it was not omly me who could see it.

 

It could be his age, it could be autism - the only definite way to tell is to have someone see him.

 

What I do know is, having recently attended a self esteem course, that these ritualistic and repetitve behaviours can also be as a result of anxiety. I am not saying that he is anxious, but I think we underestimate how difficult living with a sibling with an ASD can be. Especially for younger children in a family - as you cannot explain their siblings behaviours yet. They don't have the same role model that children of a similar position in another family often have.

 

I know that my little one has had to listen to loads of tantrums, be bossed aorund a lot - even down to being told what to say. I find myself having to monitor the situation closely and make allowances in her behaviour for the pressure she is sometimes put under by her sister with Aspergers.

 

All of us have autistic traits - or at least I hope I am not the only mother who has them . You know even if he does have asd, he will still be your little boy and nothing will change that. I know it is very hard not to worry, but only time will tell. Try focusing hard on his positive behaviours - see where the balance lies. Could he be anxious, without even realising it? There are many reasons why children behave in certain ways and sometimes it is just because they do!

[mum22boys]

Thanks for your response Kathy.

 

I don't know if it's an anxiety thing, i suppose as time goes on and if it continues there may be some pattern. I was interested in what you said about the sibling being affected by the ASD behaviour though.

 

Poor R has witnessed so many tantrums that he thinks it is normal. And for M it is. R is as good as gold and seems to understand when this happens and he knows all my attention needs to be directed to M and he stands still and doesn't move, quite an achievement for a child who isn't 3 yet. He too is constantly told what to do and not do - this is to the exteme not like any 'normal' child telling a sibling what to do. R is told to conform to M's rules. you have made me realise how this must be for him. Yes it is part of life but it must be difficult for the poor little man.

 

Oh and yes I too have at least one autistic trait. So you are not the only one!

 

Thanks again

 

mum22boys

[cb1303]

Thanks for your response Kathy.

 

I don't know if it's an anxiety thing, i suppose as time goes on and if it continues there may be some pattern. I was interested in what you said about the sibling being affected by the ASD behaviour though.

 

Poor R has witnessed so many tantrums that he thinks it is normal. And for M it is. R is as good as gold and seems to understand when this happens and he knows all my attention needs to be directed to M and he stands still and doesn't move, quite an achievement for a child who isn't 3 yet. He too is constantly told what to do and not do - this is to the exteme not like any 'normal' child telling a sibling what to do. R is told to conform to M's rules. you have made me realise how this must be for him. Yes it is part of life but it must be difficult for the poor little man.

 

Oh and yes I too have at least one autistic trait. So you are not the only one!

 

Thanks again

 

mum22boys

[cb1303]

Sorry I've not quite worked out how to reply to a topic yet please ignore my last post. I'm fairly new here but felt I had to reply as everytihng you wrote about your son reminds me of R at that age. My son was diagnosed AS at 3yrs 3 months and your description of unusual behaviours sounds so familiar. Looking back I think the insisting people didn't look at him came later at about 4years. I think you would be wise to get it checked out. I don't know how it works in your part of the country but in scotland it was a referral to the local childdevelopment centre by the nursery - which my health visitor agreed with. R is an only child so I'm unsure of the effect "copycat" behaviour may have but I would get it checked out just to put your mind at rest.

 

CeeBee