a few questions regarding my son (Aspergers)

[smadams11]

hi,

i'm looking for a little advice regarding my 8 year old son.

 

firstly, he lies often (which i have been led to believe is not something aspergers children do). he isn't a good liar and i can figure out the truth pretty quickly as his lies often don't make sense, but still, he lies-is this odd?

 

secondly, he has a great imagination and often makes up stories using objects as a replacement for other things...e.g: he will use a solid block and pretend it is a person (again, i have been told that autistic kids dont do this)

 

thirdly, when i did the Sally Anne test, he initially answered that Sally would look in Annes box for the ball as 'she was the only one there who could have taken it'. when i asked him 'where is the first place Sally would look for her ball when she came back?', he said 'ohhh, in her basket!' as though he had just cottoned on. is this a 'pass' of 'fail' of the test?

 

lastly, he takes everything i say as fact, even if he had other ideas/beliefs initially. so if he is totally convinced of something and i make an innocent comment or show him a different way of looking at a situation, he changes his mind immediately and agrees with me completely. once, when i told him something painful (i was forced into telling him that his dad is not his 'real' dad in preparation of my partner adopting him), my son began seeing ghosts in the walls, was suddenly afraid of the dark etc...i decided this was not worth it-my son was only 4 and i shouldnt have told him something so devastating. so i told my son that it had been a lie (that the nasty man (social worker) had lied to me and told me to tell my son that lie). i told my son it was a lie, that i was very angry at the nasty man and we would just forget that this had ever happened. my son did. my son, who can remember amazing things for years in perfect clarity, totally forgot about this experience.

when he hadnt mentioned it a few weeks later i became curious as he cant resist asking and retelling stories etc so i asked if he remembered the nasty man who told us the lie and he had no recollection of it whatsoever. he never mentioned it again. also, all the ghosts and fear disappeared the night i told him it was a lie.

 

???

any help appreciated. just trying to understand some things about him.

thank you

Edited October 14, 2014 by smadams11

[dotmarsdotcom]

ask sally44 mate?

 

she seems to consistently know ?

 

I'm try and think about your issue to see if there's anything i can say that can help you and your lad, but she's the oracle on here.

[dotmarsdotcom]

if sally44 don't put up a good one (which she will) i'll do my best to reply to this... cause my lad was in the same sort of place.. back when he was a kid

[smadams11]

if sally44 don't put up a good one (which she will) i'll do my best to reply to this... cause my lad was in the same sort of place.. back when he was a kid

thank you very much for your comments. i look forward to understanding my son and appreciate your help.

[Sally44]

I think it is misleading to say that those on the autistic spectrum do not or cannot lie. They can. But they might not be good at it for the same reason they are not good at the Sally Ann test. They find it hard to see it from the other persons point of view and so their lying is not very good.

 

My own son has lied. He has also stolen DVDs when he was much younger. It was a case of he saw a DVD about his favourite subject and he wanted it. He knew that if he asked me to buy it I would say no. He was so obsessed with the item that he had to have it. He gave a convincing lie about where he had got the DVD from when we found it. He had managed to secret it on his person in such a way that you could not tell he had taken it. It was a phase he went through, and now he does not do it.

 

However my son is also very keen on "rules". And that those rules must not be broken. So he needs those rules for things to make sense to him. And so he was quite distraught with himself that he had stolen something and had then lied. He got himself into quite a state about it, saying that when he grew up he would have to be a robber. So we explained about making bad choices, about making mistakes, about putting things right, about the right way to shop, about you cannot always get what you want immediately. These are all life skills that have to be taught to all children, but especially to our kids who may not automatically pick up some of these skills are part of their natural development.

 

All I can say is that we are all human. And that although a child/adult has to fit certain criteria to get a diagnosis, that does not mean that those on the the spectrum are totally without certain abilities or skills [and lying, or white lies, to a certain extent are an ability that allows us to be social animals. But we all know that you cannot all be 100% honest all the time with everyone.]

 

So as a "general" statement I would say that those with an ASD can lie, but often not very well. And that they are often too honest and say things without thinking of the consequences of what they have said. My son can be quite good at pointing out others faults ie. spots, big nose, bad smells etc. So too honest.

 

It is wrong to say that those on the spectrum do not have empathy. They do. But they may need the situation explaining to them for them to understand. It may not come automatically. For example, I am sure that my son would not automatically understand if his sister had an argument with her boyfriend and was then upset about it. He would have no idea why she was sad or angry or get annoyed or upset with him. He would think he had done something to upset her. But if I told him what had happened he would have empathy and he would probably say something kind and supportive to his sister. But I would also have to tell him that he had not done anything wrong, and that his sister was just in a bad/sad mood.

 

Again, the Sally Ann test is something that children are supposed to master at around age 4 I believe. And again those on the spectrum have a "spectrum" of ability in this area. BUT they would all fail to get some of the higher levels of this test, as it can be made more and more difficult. My son can get the Sally Ann test correct. He could at age 5. He can get alot of things from TV and DVDs. So if you ask about what he has watched he will get most of the details and storyline correct and in very precise detail. But put him in the real world and he would not get it because the real world is not relayed to you on a TV screen for you to see all the characters and all the things they are saying and doing. In real life you have to get the clues and draw your conclusions. On TV you just watch the story as it is fed to you. In real life alot of things happen "off screen" and you have to guess what has happened from the information available to you.

 

Him just believing everything you say is a kind of black and white thinking with no grey areas. To make decisions and come to conclusions and beliefs you have, and to be able to look at something from a number of different perspectives, you have to be able to "imagine" different outcomes and "predict" what certain outcomes will be from actions taken. That is very complex. Again those on the spectrum will have different abilities. At age 4 he may not be able to work this out himself.

 

So at his age he will have total trust and belief in you. What you say is right. So even if he has believed something before, if you give him an alternative he will most likely latch onto what you have said as being fact. Many things will not make sense to him, so if someone tells him the answer he will accept that rather than trying to work it out himself.

 

I think that most children go along with what their parents tell them until they are teenagers. Then they start to form their own opinions and beliefs from their own experiences, personality, understanding etc. So I think you may be expecting too much from a 4 year old.

 

Him not remembering the conversation you had with him could be down to the complexity of it. He may not have even understood what you had told him. He may have a speech and language disorder [typical of having an ASD]. He may also have short term memory and working memory difficulties. My son often cannot tell me things that happened on the same day. Yet at the same time he can also have very precise vivid memories for things that are important and of interest to him.

 

For example he often cannot tell me what he ate for dinner. Yet at age 4 he was able to correctly tell me that his nanna in Greece had two fans that were identical that she let him play with. We thought she only had one, but when we asked her she confirmed she had two identical ones. And he had remembered that from when he was 2 years old.

 

Language itself is not necessarily that important to many on the spectrum. They communicate in other ways. They can record some things verbatim and yet not remember very simple instructions. Being on the autistic spectrum means that there will be some things you are good at and some things you are poor at. And that can even be within the same skill ie. memory. Brilliant at some types of memory and poor at others.

 

What you said may have 'worried' or confused him and caused him to have those nightmares. Or it may have been totally unrelated to what you said.

 

TBH I don't understand why you told him the lie that you did, and tried to explain it as you being forced by the social worker to do that. What was the point of that? I think any child would have struggled to understand that. At 4 years old with an ASD he just would not have understood what you were saying.

 

And we have to be open and honest with our children if we are to gain their trust. If your son finds out that you have lied to him, he may find it very hard to trust or believe what you say again - due to black and white thinking again. Your child will not be able to tell the difference between truth and lies at his age, he will expect you to tell him the truth. And being on the spectrum will make this area a lifelong difficulty anyway.

 

So I would advise that you are always as open and honest as you can be. That does not mean you have to divulge things that are not appropriate for him to know or that he will not understand.

 

I hope that has answered some of your questions. Obviously I am just another mum, not a professional, so that is just my opinon based on my own experiences.

Edited October 15, 2014 by Sally44

[smadams11]

 

''TBH I don't understand why you told him the lie that you did, and tried to explain it as you being forced by the social worker to do that. What was the point of that? I think any child would have struggled to understand that. At 4 years old with an ASD he just would not have understood what you were saying.

 

 

So I would advise that you are always as open and honest as you can be. That does not mean you have to divulge things that are not appropriate for him to know or that he will not understand.

 

I hope that has answered some of your questions. Obviously I am just another mum, not a professional, so that is just my opinon based on my own experiences.''

 

****************

thank you so much for taking the time to explain everything to me. what you say makes a lot of sense and i feel that i understand my son a little better now.

 

regarding your comments above-my sons natural father raped and assaulted me and was sentenced to 5 years in jail for it. he never had an ounce of contact with my son although i sent him regular photos etc for a year (he simply never responded). my partner was there from the start and my son has always known him as his daddy. my partner desperately wanted to adopt my son and we began that journey when my child was 4 years old. however, the social worker told us that the adoption would simply not happen unless we told my son the truth about his natural father.

i had many misgivings about this as my son was only 4 years old, he would have questions that i would be unable to answer and the fact that i had to tell my child that his dad is not actually his dad in order for my partner to become his legal dad!-how confusing and ridiculous! but it was the only way according to the social worker so we went ahead and did it. we went over the truth repeatedly with my son and he recited it back to me. i absolutely do not believe the fear in my son during that time was a coincidence. my son fears nothing, jumps into everything head first without thinking and this was truly the only time he has expressed fear.

when i finally thought it had gone far enough due to my childs fear, i had to remedy the situation and i simply could not think of how to do this-how to undo what i had originally told him. the only thing i could think of was to tell my son it was all a lie and since it was the social worker who had given us this 'my way or the highway' choice (and he was in the wrong-a four year old can not understand adoption, let alone the circumstances surrounding his natural father) i put the blame onto him. 'he told me this, it turns out he was wrong, he is in alot of trouble for it, lets pretend it never happened.'

i regret the situation and i didn't deal with it in the best way, i know, but it was all i could think of. i hate myself to this day for telling my son the truth in the first place. (also, we didn't realise my son had autism at the time, he had many difficulties but i wasn't at the point of taking him to the doctor at that time. so we did not know he had aspergers)

other than this incident, we are always as honest and open with him as possible.

i realise you are not attacking me-i just wanted to make it all clear as i fear being hated for what i did.

again, thank you for your comments and you have been very helpful.

Edited October 16, 2014 by smadams11

[Mihaela]

Hello, Smadams.

 

I've just read your sad story. You shouldn't be blaming yourself over this. You were put in a difficult position by a thoughtless, officious social worker. Ethically, you shouldn't have been bullied into complying with their ridiculous conditions - so inappropriate for a 4-year old. Did you seek legal advice on this? They were acting unreasonably, and I doubt whether they had any legal powers to do this. (If they feel they can get away with it, they usually do).

[Sally44]

I'm sorry I misunderstood your original post. I thought you had made up the story about the social worker. How ridiculous for a SW to tell you that you had to tell your 4 year old child that kind of information.

 

I have had dealings with SWs myself and it is not easy. They tell you you don't have to do what they say, and then pass judgement on you if you don't do as they ask.

 

And i'm sorry to hear of the horrendous situation with your ex.

 

Children are resilient. For whatever reason your son has not remembered what he was told. Don't feel guilty or blame yourself. Look to the future with your partner.

 

Children are adopted all the time and are not told they are adopted until they are much older, or never told at all - unless there has been a change in the law about this that I don't know about?

 

Are Childrens Services still involved? And did you lodge a complaint about this SW and their advice?

[smadams11]

Hello, Smadams.

 

I've just read your sad story. You shouldn't be blaming yourself over this. You were put in a difficult position by a thoughtless, officious social worker. Ethically, you shouldn't have been bullied into complying with their ridiculous conditions - so inappropriate for a 4-year old. Did you seek legal advice on this? They were acting unreasonably, and I doubt whether they had any legal powers to do this. (If they feel they can get away with it, they usually do).

 

 

I'm sorry I misunderstood your original post. I thought you had made up the story about the social worker. How ridiculous for a SW to tell you that you had to tell your 4 year old child that kind of information.

 

I have had dealings with SWs myself and it is not easy. They tell you you don't have to do what they say, and then pass judgement on you if you don't do as they ask.

 

And i'm sorry to hear of the horrendous situation with your ex.

 

Children are resilient. For whatever reason your son has not remembered what he was told. Don't feel guilty or blame yourself. Look to the future with your partner.

 

Children are adopted all the time and are not told they are adopted until they are much older, or never told at all - unless there has been a change in the law about this that I don't know about?

 

Are Childrens Services still involved? And did you lodge a complaint about this SW and their advice?

thank you both so much for your kind words. i have reread my original post and i didn't explain very well, did i?! it sounded as though the social worker etc were all a lie, but i felt that my post was long enough and i didn't want to make it longer with any more words!

it was an extremely difficult situation. the social worker originally asked us when we were planning on telling our son the truth and i said when he was mature enough to deal with it-maybe a teenager? the social worker replied that wasn't soon enough and he was looking for around 7/8 years old, which i outright refused to do as i still didn't feel it was old enough. but it was the only way so i rang him and agreed---then he denied saying that in the first place and insisted that we tell my son immediately. i argued and tried to explain how that was an inappropriate age to learn of such a thing but he was adamant. after a few weeks thinking, i decided to go for it (again, it was the only way to get the adoption). so i told my son hoping that due to his young age he would forget the information soon enough.

after i had told my son, i was then informed that the truth had to be told repeatedly, my son had to recall all details of the situation and have an opinion on the matter. (i do think this is ludicrous as no one gets to choose their parents and if they are not being harmed then whats the problem? how can a 4 year old decide whether he wants his dad to be his dad?!)

anyway, this was the last straw. why couldn't the social worker have told me the truth right from the start so i could make an informed decision? now my head was all over the place, i had already told my son and he was fearful. i couldn't take any more.

i did not lodge a complain or get legal advice or anything. i just wanted to forget about the whole thing, i felt so confused, sick and ashamed. i told the social worker to f*** off (which he promptly did) and explained to my son that it had all been a lie.

that was the end of that.

do you think he could be adopted now without knowing the truth? i just gave up and tried to make peace with the fact that this would never happen. maybe i'm wrong? will my son having aspergers make a difference (understanding/ability to cope)? i will look into it!

again, really really thank you for your kind words and i'm sorry this post is so long! i have a bad habit of doing that!

thank you

Edited October 17, 2014 by smadams11

[Sally44]

I think you need to get legal advice on this. I have never heard that you have to tell a child they are adopted. So get some legal advice. There is a charity called The Legal Rights Group. Try them as they also work specifically with families who have Childrens Services involved. This is a link to the info on this forum http://www.asd-forum.org.uk/forum/index.php?/topic/30289-family-rights-group-charity-giving-advice-about-childrens-services/

 

Then if it is not a legal requirement I would lodge a complaint. You are the child's mother. Lots of families have step mums/dads that adopt their partners children. I simply don't believe that all of them have had to tell their children they are being adopted and that the adoptive parent is not their real mum or dad.

 

This has the potential for emotional trauma. Especially if they are saying they will not agree to an adoption without you telling your son. He was just 4 at the time. You now know he has an autistic spectrum disorder. And even if he were to be told at a young age, you should have been given advice on how to do that ie. using a social story or similar.

 

But first see what the Family Rights Group advice is.

[dotmarsdotcom]

I find sally44 advice valid smadams11.

 

she does a beautiful attention to detail when it comes to trying to help folks.

 

way better than I could ever do.

 

not wishing to distract from your trying to get the answers to help your lad,

 

... but my problem back then was that my (step) son, was and is clearly Asperger's,

 

but I didn't realise I was that way myself also!

 

so me and him used to keep having a calamity of errors (like faulty towers! but without the hotel :-)

 

the blind leading the blind so to speak. lol

[Mihaela]

I agree with Sally here. I've heard many stories of social workers making up the rules as they go along, breaking their promises, etc. In their efforts to protect children, they often end up doing more harm than good, and tend to assume that parents don't know their own children as well as they do! I've found that Britain isn't a very child-friendly country when compared to other European countries. .

[trekster]

Hello, Smadams.

 

I've just read your sad story. You shouldn't be blaming yourself over this. You were put in a difficult position by a thoughtless, officious social worker. Ethically, you shouldn't have been bullied into complying with their ridiculous conditions - so inappropriate for a 4-year old. Did you seek legal advice on this? They were acting unreasonably, and I doubt whether they had any legal powers to do this. (If they feel they can get away with it, they usually do).

disgusting of social services to say this to you. How do they expect you to explain and him to cope with who his 'dad' is. Considering the birth 'father" has no right to be called a parent. The law needs to change about the rights of rapists.

hugs I have cptsd as a result of what my so called father did to me something 18 years later im just getting treatment to deal with.