Canopus

Both. What an effective modern education isn't about is filling up brains with stuff that may or may not be useful on a just in case basis. Neither is it about teaching to the test with the primary objective of gaining pieces of paper. The NC does both very effectively. I'm of the opinion that free schools will be run according to the whims of parents, in a similar way that primary schools were run according to the whims of the head teachers and governors prior to the NC, without any regard to what the real world wants from school leavers. I'm also of the opinion that governments both in Britain and abroad are patently incapable of drawing up quality curricula beyond KS2. I have thought about that one but kids with AS have special requirements that are rarely applicable to NT kids. For a start, most NT kids are capable of learning certain social skills and etiquette as they go along but most kids with AS can only learn them if they are taught about them. Such lessons in social skills will be almost essential for kids with AS if they are to function successfully in life as an adult but are unnecessary for most NT kids. Factoring out the social skills specific to AS then what is left is something that approaches a better universal curriculum. Suggestions and ideas that have been submitted include: 1. To offer English language and maths GCSE / IGCSE. 2. Some computer qualifications but not necessarily the ICT GCSE. 3. A selection of other GCSEs or IGCSEs depending on the interests and abilities of the kids. Most of these will be optional subjects and may include those not offered by state schools. 4. A course about cars including legal matters, the highway code, and basic maintenance. 5. The job market. Methods of how to successfully find employment. CV writing and interview skills. The secrets of tapping into the hidden job market. 6. The legal system and prominent laws. How to fire a lawsuit against someone and what to do when someone fires a lawsuit against you. 7. The workings of the government and civil service departments. What they are responsible for. How the election system works. 8. Property. How to buy a house. Various legal aspects associated with buying and renting. 9. Film and video production. 10. Medical matters including alternative medicine. 11. Business. 12. DIY and building work. Measured by who exactly? The government measures the performance of state school and kids by the number of A*-C grade GCSEs. If school decides on alternative qualifications then it will score badly by Ofsted as a result of it being non-standard rather than it being poor. An extreme example of this is if kids moved directly into A Levels and every one of them got at least 3 A grades at 16 but nobody got any GCSEs then the school would score zero by Ofsted despite every man on the street knowing that the kids are amongst the highest academic ability. GCSEs are a very narrow measurement as they give virtually no indication of life skills, social ability, or whether one was respected at school or bullied badly. Employers use different yardsticks to the government and look beyond GCSE grades. There is a whole raft of qualifications out there and many of them are high quality and respected by employers and further education. Some kids with AS would achieve more under a coursework based system but others are very good at exams. The plan is that there will be considerable input from industry into the curriculum of the school. There are an increasing number of young teenagers who run their own businesses.

I was discussing future educational strategies with the parents of a HE 11 YO with AS who are interested in setting up their own school. Their ideal model is that it will offer a curriculum based around real world life skills rather than traditional academic subjects although it will offer a handful of GCSEs and other qualifications. The only problem is that they think there is no market for such a school because the majority of parents feel that an AS school based around the NC puts kids on an equal footing with those who attended a mainstream school even though it may not be an ideal curriculum, but a heavily non-standard education is taking a big gamble. What do you think?

My experience of strong rationalists is that they dislike venturing outside of the territory of the known into the unknown. . Creationism is one thing. The book of Genesis is another.

I have discussed this subject at AS support groups many times. Concerns were raised by parents that far too many primary school teachers now have academic qualifications far above or irrelevant to the subjects that they teach - like degrees in media studies or foreign languages - whilst at the same time they lack knowledge of SEN. It would be much better for them and the kids the teachers got their GCSEs then went to training college and the time they spent in higher education was spent learning about SEN instead. My reply was that there is a lack of good courses about ASD and it can only be properly understood in a hands on setting. This is why the situation regarding knowledge is very ad hoc with many of the teachers who are more experienced and knowledgeable about ASD lacking formal qualifications whilst many teachers who have SEN qualifications lack knowledge of ASD. Unfortunately the state school system has a tickbox mentality and fails to effectively consider practical experience such as working in an AS support group at the time of applying for a job.

Atiitudes towards religion vary depending on which branch of science the scientist specialises in. Mathematicians and nuclear physicists have a higher proportion of religious people in their ranks than molecular biologists do. Some years ago I encountered a debate about religion between an atheist biologist and a Muslim electronic engineer. The biologist claimed that the electronic engineer is religious simply because nothing in the branch of science he specialises in conflicts with religion but if he understood molecular biology as well as he does then he would seriously be doubting his religious texts. The couple didn't abandon religion solely on having a child with autism. It was the science that persuaded them. The couple also has an ill feeling towards many secular organisations - particularly the British Humanist Association - for a variety of reasons.

I don't quite agree with this one because the majority of people who follow a religion - both in Britain and the rest of the world - either follow the religion of their parents or a religion that is prominent in the country (or more precisely the locality) that they live in. Only a tiny fraction change to following a very different religion as a result of their own investigative research. Another factor is whether the religion fits in with their own personal lifestyle. If somebody enjoys drinking wine then they are unlikely to become a Muslim even if certain aspects of Islam appeals to them. A secondary factor is how active are the people who claim to follow a particular religion. Certain religions such as large Protestant Christian churches and Hinduism have a high proportion of followers who are just notional and do not involve themselves in religious activities apart from say weddings or major (and more often than not fun rather than spiritual) celebrations. I have encountered numerous atheists to the core who are quite supportive of xenophobia, misogyny, homophobia and much more amoral stuff. Some even say that they support over 90% of Sharia Law!

I have encountered a couple who abandoned religion because of a severely autistic son. They used to be devout Christians, not only personally but as activists encouraging people who were not religious to enter the fold of Christianity. Originally they were C of E but later moved to a traditional and socially conservative independent church after the C of E changed its policy on gay rights in the 80s and then (in their words) lost its way and lost touch with its congregation in the name of political correctness. Having a severely autistic son which created no end of heartache for both himself and others made them question aspects of religion. They could understand physical disabilities but had difficulty coming to terms with why God could allow such mental disabilities to exist. Explanations like life is full of challenges or dealing with adversity were not good enough as they felt that the situation had gone too far. It was not just the endless stress and problems caused by their autistic son that made them lose faith in religion. They first turned to the study of medicine and later the study of science - particularly genetics and evolution. While the parents were Christians they considered Richard Dawkins to be an arrogant and loud mouthed propaganda merchant who should spend more time in the lab. After initial scepticism reading his books they increasingly concluded that he and his fellow molecular biologists are infact right. Continued study of genetics and molecular biology moved them away from religion. Not just Christianity but all forms of religion which they increasingly concluded were falsehood and disproved by science. Their next course of action was support for gene therapy and genetic modification of humans. They strongly believed that if the genes which caused medical and psychological problems could be identified and then corrected using gene therapy then it should be implemented in practice. It was simply the next stage in the development of medicine from organ transplants. In their opinion religious groups opposed to genetic modification were immoral and irresponsible when much human suffering could be eliminated by eliminating faulty genes.

Have any parents here abandoned religion as a result of having a child with ASD?

I have previously stated an increasing interest in IGCSEs from within the AS community but uptake has been hindered because the NAS does not recommend them. Discussions with the NAS has revealed the reason being that it does much of its work in the mainstream school system that will not (for the foreseeable future) offer IGCSEs because they don't fit in with the NC. Teaching unions share much of the blame for inhibiting child focused developments along with 'lefties' in the education system who promote the one size fits all model under the banner of equality. My findings are that the political left in England generally has a poor knowledge of SEN (despite claiming to champion disability) and more so for more recent developments like ASD and sensory issues than traditional physical disabilities.

You are right in what you say but the fault lay in CSEs more than O Levels. The change from CSE and O Level to GCSE has devalued the qualification in comparison to the O Level. An increasing number of independent schools are moving towards IGCSEs as they believe that employers and further education value them more than GCSEs. In my opinion a better (but not perfect solution) would have been to abolish CSEs and replace them by a combined diploma in English language, maths, and science similar to CSE standard for the lower academic ability students. IT would later be included in the mix. This would then be supplemented by a small number of O Levels in subjects where the students had strengths such as history or foreign languages. Adding maths or English or science O Levels could be achieved later at college. I am a critic of exams especially at university level as they are highly unrelated to real world careers. At GCSE level an all examination system is not perfect but in my opinion is fairer than most other alternatives. The coursework centric system makes life difficult for those who wish to take exams outside of the system such as home educated kids, distance learning course users, expelled kids, and high ability kids who wish to take them before Y11. An all examination system is much easier for them.

True, but how many parents are aware of the 1996 Education Act which states that they are responsible for their children's education? We now have a society where countless kids, mainly from lower class families in economically depressed areas, start school unable to carry out basic everyday tasks because their parents haven't bothered teaching them. That way schools are increasingly having to pick up the pieces of failed parenting. The SEN community fares little better at times with countless parents expecting the state to provide an A1 education for their kids then more often than not fighting losing battles against the establishment. This is why I previously stated about going back to first principles then compiling lists of the services the state is to provide and the services where it is the parents responsibility to provide. I disagree. The all examination nature and the style of the questions in O Level exam papers is often better for kids with AS than the coursework based GCSE is. My education psychologist mentioned that I would do worse under the new style GCSEs than under the O Levels. There have been quite a bit of interest in IGCSEs by parents of kids with AS and they have been comparing exam paper questions with those from the GCSE. GCSEs were designed to be a populist exam for the masses of NT kids. The value of a qualification is the level in which employers and higher educational institutions value it. Course content comes second. I have found out that an electronics A Level is not highly valued by industry or higher education despite its content being just as technical as a physics or chemistry A Level.

There is some anecdotal evidence that the current crop of public school toffs in Parliament sees the academic grammar school system as the future model of mainstream education and they are quietly reversing the reforms of the Thatcher decade such as replacing all examination O Levels with coursework based GCSEs, separate science subjects with double science etc. It remains to be seen. Something I'm worried about is dustbinning SEN kids by lumping those with very different types of SEN in schools which provide a poor education just to clear them out of mainstream so it can get on with teaching kids who don't have problems. There is sufficient popular opinion from the Daily Mail readers to support such polices under journalist's titles of troubled, maladjusted, or disruptive. These were all terms that were used to describe my residential school that was officially EBD. I absolutely agree with this but if attitudes are that academic standards are paramount then useful vocational courses become vulnerable. Those who can't handle O Level / A Level material will get shunted onto useless courses like the CPVE.

This has been discussed here before. SEN services for kids with AS are generally much cheaper than those for kids with physical disabilities so funding is less of an issue in theory. What is a more pressing concern is that academies and free schools will have a desire to protect their image and reputation so they will be reluctant to take kids deemed to be controversial, weirdos, or potential liabilities through their actions even if they are high calibre academically. The schools will tend to be run like families so kids will be expected to fit in and contribute to the spirit rather than being themselves with their own identities. This could actually work in our favour if we could get funding for free schools for kids with AS.

There may be truth to this but is it possible to be too clever in the real world? The problem with the mainstream school system is that it holds back high ability kids rather than lets them move ahead of the NC. I'm all for accelerated learning but many in the ASD community are not and the NAS doesn't advocate it. And does the state school system prepare children for life? One of the many reasons why parents home educate is to prepare them for the real world by educating them in the real world by mixing with people who work in the real world.

This is a subject that will be debated until the end of time... The reality is that wealth creation does not correlate with qualifications or NC knowledge. There are countless people out there who are well qualified and academically educated but earn lousy salaries. In contrast, a high proportion of 20 and 30 something entrepreneurs and self made millionaires do not have good qualifications and in some cases were school dropouts. It raises the question whether a traditional academic education is overrated and that in the 21st century it's the material outside of the NC that really leads to financial success, not GCSEs. I think what is more important is whether Britain can compete financially with low wage economies. If a certain job can be outsourced to India and done by workers with a comparable level of education and skills to a British worker for just a quarter of the price then what chance does a British worker have? All this talk about improving education and skills is a red herring. The price differential overshadows the intellectual differential. Some economists go as far as saying that the education system should be restructured around developing skills for the jobs which cannot be outsourced rather than trying to outsmart other countries. In other words, tell schools to abandon computers and return to woodwork classes because building work cannot be oursourced to India like IT work can. Gareth Lewis aptly summarises this in his article Youth Unemployment - No More Jobs for the Boys when he says "if there are no jobs for children when they leave school in five, ten, or fifteen years time, then there is absolutely no reason for sending them to school now". You are not the first person to say this. If this is true then it raises many questions about the entire nature of the state education system - or whether it should even be dismantled apart from primary school teaching basic maths and English. Is there really any point in spending millions of pounds on something for which there is little return on the investment economically when the internet can do the same job much cheaper? Intellectuals vs wheeler dealers? You may be right but if you want this style of education then you have to go to Summerhill or home educate. State schools and most independent schools just function like meat grinders where exam grades are the be all and end all. They don't care about what kids know or learn that is outside of the curriculum.

Read my comment again. You misinterpreted it. There is always the big question of exactly what do parents want to get out of the school system. Can their demands be reasonably provided or not? As a general rule of thumb, the SEN services provided in mainstream schools are heavily biased towards whatever is required to learn the NC material because that is the official service that the school supplies. If large amounts of material outside of the NC, including real world life skills or vocational subjects, is required then this usually has to be provided in special schools or colleges. There are thousands of kids out there with educational needs that no existing school effectively supplies. I certainly fitted into this category and ended up attending an unsuitable SEN school that was probably worse than a mainstream school with no SEN services. This is getting back to the basics again. Clear definitions of the SEN services that schools and LA must provide by default and those that are (almost) guaranteed under a Statement of SEN need to be drawn up if we are to ensure that they will be delivered. At the moment the vagueness and lack of clear definitions surrounding SEN makes the provision of SEN services highly vulnerable to financial cutbacks. An example of a service that must be provided by default are teaching staff and LA SEN officials who are knowledgeable about ASD. It is of utmost importance that budgets for staff training and the provision of books about ASD to schools are ringfenced. Cutbacks in this area will result in a whole generation of staff who lack sufficient knowledge and understanding of ASD to be able to provide any meaningful services, and it will effectively turn the clock back to where we were 15 or so years ago.

Under the 1996 Education Act it is the parents who are responsible ensuring that children receive an education suitable to their age, ability and aptitude, and to any special educational needs they may have. State schools offer the NC and anything in addition to this apart from that obtained via a Statement of SEN is a bonus. A Statement of SEN is a tool to access a selection of services beyond that normally offered as part of the NC but it is not, and never has been, a magic wand to ensure that the very best education is provided to every student. As a consequence of this, it is the parent's responsibility to decide whether a state school education (including anything available under a Statement of SEN) is the best education or whether it is merely satisfactory in the government's opinion. This could be viewed as a get out of jail card for schools or the LA but is it actually possible to provide the very best education for every student under a monolithic system? This is why smart parents, including those of NT kids with no disabilities or SEN, know that the very best education can only be achieved with a certain degree of input outside of the school system. That is true and the entire situation needs looking at from today's perspective also taking into account various developments that have taken place since the 1980s. I have discussed cutbacks to services for SEN and disability with my (Conservative) MP who replied that they are ideological just as much as they are financial. It is the opinion of the Conservatives that under NuLab society became excessively dependent upon the state and has lost much of its self reliance and willingness to solve its own problems and provide for the needy. He then cited a certain LA that was not heavily dependent on public services and how its own people had a get up and go attitude when it came to repairing infrastructure or providing facilities for kids without the council or the taxpayer being involved. I also mentioned this with my MP and how cutbacks to benefits often end up translating as cutbacks to voluntary work. At least the John Major government had the decency and courtesy not to introduce JSA until after the worst of the last recession had cleared. This government is on the brink of bringing back the workhouse by forcing benefits claimants to have to work for no pay for wealthy multinational corporations like Poundland or Tesco whilst denying them the right to useful and beneficial voluntary work.

I'm probably going to come across as a miserable ogre here... What we need to do is look at this situation from first principles, then decide exactly what services for kids with ASD should be provided by schools and LAs, and which services are best provided outside of LAs - such as by ASD support groups, the internet etc. There is currently a lot of ambiguity and lack of precision when it comes to LAs and schools providing SEN services which makes it a much easier target for cutbacks than if the details were more precise. At the moment it is very difficult to determine what the medium term outcomes of these SEN changes are or whether kids with ASD will lose out badly from them. IMO there is a lack of self reliance in the ASD community with a considerable proportion of parents holding the view that it's a God given right that schools and the LA provide everything on a gold plate for their kids. Now the game has changed and if we are to expect guaranteed services from schools and the LA then it is of utmost importance that we come up with clearer definitions of what they are.

I could elaborate but do not feel that I have to.

Most of the EBD kids at my residential school were yobs and thugs from council estates who were clearly NT. More like is an impossible picture. I have first hand experience.

I soon as I read this the alarm bells sounded very loud. Emotional and Behavioural Difficulties (EBD) is NOT the same thing as ASD. They are completely different as EBD kids are NT. Correct. I attended an EBD residential school during the early 1990s and it was a very unpleasant experience. The school was unsuitable for my needs and did not provide the help and support I needed although the academic standards were quite high. Many problems resulting from ASD were put down as laziness or low standards. The philosophy of the school was not to teach social and life skills as they would develop naturally (they don't in ASD kids) with time in a disciplined environment. Read some of my old posts from 2005 to 2007 for more info about the school.

An alternative to a car is a drivable lawnmower or similar category K vehicle. These can legally be driven solo on a provisional licence providing L plates are attached. I'm not sure whether removing the blades from a lawnmower will move it into a category B1 vehicle.

I absolutely agree with this one as adults are often unaware of the achievements of teenagers in all sorts of areas. The problem stems from the negative image of teenagers painted by the mainstream media and the segregated society where it is difficult for adults to interact with teenagers to find out what they really do. This ability to change personality in order to fit in with ones associates at a particular time is an NT trait. I noticed it with one of my NT brothers how his personality and the way he behaved with his family was completely different from the way he behaved with his mates - and he was able to switch between the two personalities almost instantly. People with AS do not have this flexibility and therefore show similar personalities in all environments with all people. It can however be a disadvantage. My findings are that parents roughly fit into two camps. The first camp accepts the AS teenager as who they are; accepts that they cannot function like a conventional NT teenager for most of the time; offers them the support and advice to succeed with real world issues; and sees adult social skills as more important than teenage social skills. This camp also tends to believe that families and local AS groups should bear the bulk of the responsibility for providing services and support. The second camp just wants a 'low maintenance' teenager who makes friends easily at school and relates well with their peer group, but is often unwilling to offer support and advice on real world issues and is obsessed with trying to get the teenage social skills right. This camp also tends to believe that the government and the education system should bear the bulk of the responsibility for providing services and support.

Interesting that you mention this. Decades of mass education that separates teenagers from adults (other than their teachers) and the workings of the real world for much of their time have created an artificial parallel society and a youth subculture. In centuries gone by (and in tribal areas today) this youth subculture did not exist as children moved directly into adulthood without having to go through this 'teenage' period with its own culture and social norms. By the age of 12 most children were working alongside adults in the real world, so they had to understand the real world and take on board adult social skills. Youth subculture did not exist anywhere near the level that it exists today. Many teenagers (including my parents) enjoy this youth subculture and much prefer to be with their own mates doing things that other teenagers do rather than mixing with adults and learning about or participating in the real world. The situation is notably different for a high proportion of teenagers with AS who have difficulty relating to their peer groups at school; difficulty in understanding teenage social skills and communication; and little interest in teenage popular culture. They often prefer the company of adults as they find them more predictable and interesting people to be with than other teenagers. Their interests overwhelmingly lie in the real world rather than in what they often see as shallow and silly teenage popular culture. This situation often causes problems for teenagers with AS and their parents have a nasty desire to compare their children's lives with the lives of NT classmates who fit in well with their peers, or even their own lives as teenagers. They overwhelmingly high proportion of them want their children to fit into youth subculture without any problems rather than question how recent and artificial such an environment is and that some simply can't fit into it so it would be better to focus on living in the real world instead. This is called the blind leading the blind. It is well known within the HE community which holds a distrust of youth subculture and believes that youngsters should be more integrated into the real world rather than caged up in artificial environments with people of their own age group. I happen to know of quite a few teenagers who are aware of this and how it's difficult to get good advice on real world matters from their peer group so instead have to turn to adults. The best teachers are those who have walked the path in which you wish to travel on. Like the NAS. Run by NT parents for AS kids who go to mainstream schools whilst making it difficult for adults with AS to share their real life experiences and offer advice. The biggest problem with the NAS is not that it doesn't provide enough support for adults with AS, it is that it doesn't effectively let adults contribute to the organisation. My experience as a long term user of this forum is that the moderators have acted in a heavy handed and reactionary manner too often. Several active users have left this forum over the years and I'm in contact with some of them.

I don't have specific details of where the houses are, how much they cost, and how many people bought them. I do know for sure of two self employed people in their 20s who own houses valued at £60-70k outright. One is NT and was HE from the outset. The other has AS and was HE since Y7 but attended college for 2 years between 16 and 18.