Ian Jordan
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Posts posted by Ian Jordan
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A simple guide to vision therapy / colour
Vision therapy is based on the premise that milestones have not been achieved and that by using exercises and prisms it is possible to retune the system. It does work in many cases - BUT - it is not suitable in many cases of ASD. It requires daily exercises and may be unpleasant. It also can prove to be very expensive as many professional appointments are necessary - bank on £1000 - £2000
There are three types of tinting assessments available - trial and error eg Irlen, subtractive colour eg the intuitive colorimeter, additive colour eg the Orthoscopics system
There is a big difference between these methods - and to give you an idea what government review considers the difference - we were given two awards for improvement of technoque - citing the previous methods as essentially obsolete.
The range (gamut) of the colorimeter is small - less than half that of the Orthoscopics instrument - and trial and error is very unlikely to get the right answer - the mathematics of when ambient lighting is changed is extremely complex.
In addition the Orthoscopics system can achieve many effects which would be impossible using the other systems - so, caveat emptor.
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it is much better to get problem treated than play games
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I've always thought that sensory processing disorders were lifelong conditions. Why would it suddenly become evident at a time there are other mental health symptoms?Sensory processsing problems often are causative (at least in part) of anxiety and many of the mental health problems difficulties experienced in ASD. For example - if the trigger threshold for visual processing problems is exceeeded symptoms can be extreme - and extremely difficult to cope with. A reasonable response is to panic / take whatever action is necessary to escape - and this can be misconstrued as a mental health disorder / meltdown. I would compare it to being in a very noisy / strobing / dizzy and touch / temperature disturbed environment - it is no wonder that children respond in the way that they do.
When faces morph and disappear, when the visual field breaks up, when illusions occur, when time and space become distorted - it is vital for some to have their problems addressed.
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Sounds as though he has a visual processing disorder - if he has - his actions are understandable - and it is essential that they are addressed if you want to sort out his anxiety / behaviour.
Please get it checked
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There are a number of opticians using advanced assessment techniques - Jo ONeill at Norvilles opticians in Gloucester is excellent and I would recommend her without reservation.
I think she may spend some time at Cirencester too.
I do appreciate that parents can have some difficulty who to go to. The differnce between knowledgeable people varies and it virtually impossible for parents to tell the differences.
So,
here are what you need to ask and what you need to get as answers - you don't need to know what the questions mean -but they are all vital in ASD visual assessments and all should be answered
How much colour space is covered - they have to know the answer (anything else is unacceptable) - 0ver 60% is OK (we address about 75%) - some systems address less than 25%! - and the effects are relatively poor in comparison - and children with ASD often need more complex assessments
Can they address prosopagnosia and metamorphopsia (essentail in ASD) - yes
facial recognition problems are critical in ASD
Do they address synesthesia - yes
Visual systems affect every sensory system - and are affected by every system too. Cross sensory tests are essential
Do they address the Pulfrich effect - yes
major effects in shop / school meltdowns due to mid line effects
Do they address the McGurk effect - yes
causes massive communication problems in ASD
Do they address dorsal stream problems - yes
Dyspraxia / hand eye coordination / movement / gait are affected
Do you see the effects during the test - yes
Can the practice test non verbal / non cooperative sensory processing by objective methods - yes
If a practice can answer these questions - then go to them. If they don't.... caveat emptor
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The system we use has been peer reviewed (and the methods we use were considered to be a significant improvement on all other systems - by government scientists)- and is accepted (but relatively few have the equipment - many more want it) - to quote UK professor of optometry appearing on television "it is the best method currently available"
Unfortunately it is also much more expensive and requires a much higher knowledge level - we don't just look at reading speed (an awful assessment method) - and it can do everything that other methods can achieve - and then a lot more. So, if you are prepared to accept poor assessment methods then that is your choice. I would not however accept being associated with them and therefore I have disassociated myself in my post.
The system we use is being used in clinical areas (asd is just a side effect) - and opinion exists only where mathematics doesn't. The mathematics is clear - so suggesting that it is my opinion instead of fact is incorrect.
Your opinion is uninformed - and potentially damaging to those that presume all systems are the same. They are not - and the difference is often massive.
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No its not opinion - it is verifiable mathematically - very simply look at the colour gamut of the Chromagen system in comparison with the Orthoscopics system. There is a massive difference and it worries me if people think that all methods are the same.
The Chromagen system is very simplistic - and when we got UK government funding for testing development we cited it as essentially obsolete (and that was 10 years ago!).
The methods we use are the ONLY accurate methods available in the UK at present, have over double the range of the next best system and can achieve so much more eg we can treat prosopagnosia / metamorphopsia - so important in ASD - every child on the spectrum should be assessed - sadly they continue to suffer.
I want to make it clear that I would not use the methods advocated, and that I would not wish to be associated with them - and as someone had put a on a thread with my name on - I think I have a right to distance myself from a technique which I would not under any circumstances use.
As for what is being done in research - I am VERY excited at what we are achieving - but we will not be publishing for a while - for commercial reasons.
Some of it will be world news - but not in ASD!
Hi Ian -Not wishing to be confrontational, but just for the sake of balance perhaps you could add an 'In my opinion as an interested professional' or something there? I know how strongly you feel that your own research is 'right', but it is your research, and - unless there have been some major changes in the past year or so they have not been widely replicated elsewhere or generally accepted professionally(?).
As I say, not confrontational, just highlighting that you are a professional with a vested interest in promoting your own work/research.
L&P
BD
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I would like to make it clear that we do NOT use the Chromagen system (as used by optician in previous post) and do not intend to use it in the future.
There are BIG differnces in what can be achieved with optimum instruments and lenses - particularly in ASD.
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You need to see a specialist - there are a few that can deal with this problem easily
PM me and I'll sugggest someone - or you could come to scotland if you wish
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There are a number of techniques for improving eye movement - it's complex and may be expensive as it may not be covered by the NHS. It should be covered - but often isn't!
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still awful diagnostic criteria - and open up to massive levels of misdiagnosis
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Hi Ian,I sent you a PM quite a while ago but it says you haven't read it. Did you recieve it?
Kerry
Have just found it - sorry not replied
The condition is related to a reflex response - and treatable by a knowledgeable person. It is not related to drainage, but control of tear production.
send me another pm and i will suggest someone that can help in your area
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I do a number of free presentations to charities every year (6). Expenses only - and I don't charge these if I do not have to spend a night away! I have 2 left for this year.
Saturdays are usually not available (except as keynote lectures), but Sundays possible.
I normally want at least 50 people guaranteed (and preferably a lot more), a room that can go to blackout and the room must be quiet.
I can bring PA, radio mics, projector etc for a small cost (to cover costs).
Minimum lecture time 1hr 30 - if you have seen me you'll understand
For keynote lectures etc - PM me
For commercial presentations my costs have to cover loss of business at my practice etc - so costs are substantial - and probably not affordable for a small group. I also work as a consultant for a number of multinationals, expert witness etc
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I've finally taken the plunge and have made an appointment to come and see you.The journey is going to be nearly 6 hours long and involves two changes of train!!
Do I need to send you details of things that maybe related to sensory/visual issues?
bring everything - but we don't want to see till end - it could influence us unduly. comparisons are then ok
When we assess you should see the effects immediately - there should be no doubt as to the efficacy of intervention - it should be obvious
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very simply put - assessment as early as possible -interventions time may be critical
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Hi IanAre you likely to be coming down south at all to do any presentations?
I think my youngest may have more sensory probs than we have realised, and I am very interested in the subject.
I have nothing planned in ASD parents / professionals in the south this year as I get very few / no invitations from autism societies / professionals in the South. I must admit I am a little surprised - considering how many people seem to want to see me, and considering how spectacular some of my presentations are for parents / profesionals. It was like when I did the TV programme " My family and autism", thousands tried to contact me - yet I did not get a single invite to present at conferences! (I have only spoken in total at about 10 autsim conferences in 10 years - including world level ones- it should have been at least a hundred - and so much good could have been done to hundreds of thousands of children). We actually improve childrens lives in seconds.
Publicising the kind of thing I do is so important for autsim - yet.......
I have to conclude that parents / professionals either aren't interested or don't believe that sensory interventions can have an effect. I sometimes wonder whether I am wasting my time. Sorry to be cynical - but things need to change - and nothing has in this area in 10 years.
There is a limit to how much I can help - but I look at conferences - the presentations have NOT moved on significantly in ten years. If there is not a paradigm shift then they will not for another 50 - with all the problems in ASD that could be addressed ignored. My contribution is small, but when there is a jigsaw - you need to have all the pieces. And at the moment half of them in the ASD jigsaw are ignored
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If any help to parents with children with sensory problems, I am giving a presentation in Durham County Hall on Saturday 9.30 - 2.30 on visual processing problems in autism (be there at 9.00) for the County Durham Autism support group.
I restrict my appearances now - but if youy want to get an introduction to this complex subject - this would be a good start.
If you haven't seen me or heard me speak - ask people on the site
hope this helps
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needs to be assessed by capable person - PM me and I will suggest someone in your are that we be OK
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Two things - the cerebellum is only part of the problem in most cases - and sometimes addressing cerebellum procesing difficulties without addressing other difficulties can make the problems worse.
To achieve optimum effects you must understand what can be problematical - and get professional advice.
In cases of dyspraxia (simply put - motor control problems) there are numerous factors that MUST be addressed before looking at automaticity - vision and visual processing is critical (I have seen many cases when cerebellar exercises have reinforced visual processing deficits), you must address vestibular and proprioceptive difficulties, sensory integration, auditory processing, mid line and body mapping, temporal processing (this will often stop dyspraxia in seconds - yet is virtually never managed).
There are a number of questions you should ask about the Dore system
1 How does it differ from inexpensive methods eg the exercises in Madeleine Portwoods books - do you really need to spend £2000+ (I see little difference)
2 What qualifications and training have the trainers - is there a professional body that you can complain to if the system fails (who can you sue)
3 Why should cerebellar processing always be paramount - I would dispute this from a position of knowledge
4 What happens if the problem is visual processing for example - do they have the knowledge to recognise the difference (and instrumentation etc - I already know the answer to this one)
In general what a parent should do
1 make sure that body chemistry is optimised
2 make sure sensory inputs are processed correctly (more complex than you imagine - and difficult to access)
3 develop maps using exercises (Dore will do this - but so will virtually free systems)
4 feed back techniques may be used
Paying a lot of money - be VERY careful - it may be wasted (even if it works - you should consider inexpensive methods - there is little to suggest that high cost makes better results)
remember - addressing cerebellar "dysfunction" may cause problems as well as solve them.
Caveat emptor - let the buyer beware!
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don't forget vestibular, visual and proprioceptive procesing assessments - all may have a significant effct on handwriting
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If you are only getting watery eyes in these situations it seems unlikely that it is a difficulty with tear ducts as this would cause problems in other situations. Think VERY carefully before having any op to increase tear drainage.
It appears to be an abnormal response / reflex that you describe - which may be treatable - you need specialist advice
PM me.
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shes's very good - recommended
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You need specialist advice on this one as there a lot of things that could be going on - visual or visual processing.
As some of them may be of clinical importance it is ESSENTIAL that you get these checked in the near future.
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Research in ASD is very difficult due to the hetergenous grouping within ASD. Extrapolation of research findings may often be inappropriate and this is perhaps the greatest problem in evidential based practice. In complex systems reseach is often at best difficult, at worst - impossible.
Is there any area of research that you are interested in in particular?
Eye problems
in General Discussion
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