CURRENT SCHOOL PLAYING THINGS DOWN IN LIGHT OF PLACING REQUEST

[cmuir]

Hi

 

Recently made a placing request for my son R (aged 7.5/has AS) to go to a special school, specifically for Autistic and Aspergic kids. R currently attends a mainstream school whereby he's allocated 1-2-1 full-time support. Five out of 22 kids in the class have special needs (R included) and I discovered that Rs learning assistant is being used to support R as well as other 4 kids. I've raised this with the school and they're fully aware how I feel abut this. I believe he's actually only receiving 5 hours per week, given his support is being shared. R has been seen by CAMHS who have said he's suffering from anxiety and possibly depression (hallelujah, they got there in the end!). School admit that R is unpredictable and I have reports as recent as November stating how challenging he is and how they struggle to keep him and others safe. Yet, call me paranoid, but at a recent school review meeting I thought everyone was talking about another child. Also received a copy of Rs IEP today via email and I'm fuming - I've managed to respond in a rational but no-nonsense manner requesting that some of the points be removed or amended (especially the part where it says 'abusive language is now a very rare occurrence in school'). Basically, everything seems to being played down. In addition, because I written to the head of the Education Dept/placing request, I've raised issue of number of kids in Rs class with special needs (1/4 of the class basically). Suddenly, one of the kids has left and went to a special school and school are trying to get rid of another one. I could be being very cynical, but it seems like there's a bit of collusion going on in order to keep R at the school and 'his' funding (the other mums are more than happy to stand around gossiping, but nothing that's proactive in helping their kids eg get support). Surely, I'm losing my marbles ...... or could I have hit the nail on the head?

 

Caroline.

[Karen A]

Hi cmuir.

If you believe that school are not providing the level of support documented in the Statement then you could write to the LA.Write stating that you have reason to believe that your child is not recieving the provision documented in the Statement.As your child has a Statement the LA have a responsibilty to provide the support documented.The school may take more notice of the LA than they may take if you are raising the issue.

I have taken that course of action when school have not provided support as documented in the Statement.

There is a draft letter on the IPSEA web site.I will see if I can find the link.Karen.

[Karen A]

http://www.ipsea.org.uk/sevenfixes.htm#NonImplementation

This is the link.Karen.

[Sally44]

It might be partly as you say. The other children with SEN needs in the class may have been assessed and if any of them are considered to have such significant needs that a special placement is required then that might be found. That could happen because the child's own parent is pushing for that support or is in the statementing or tribunal process, or it could just as easily be because you are making waves about the support your own child receives and that has repercussions on other children.

I just wanted to comment on the 1-2-1 support. Schools and LEA don't like 1-2-1 support and they do have a right to support children in groups as well as 1-2-1. However if it states that (1-2-1 or small group work) in your child's Statement then that is what he should receive. Does your child's statement also refer to small group work, and if so what size of groups are they?

What I found from moving my son to a mixed enhanced resource environment is that he actually receives less 1-2-1 than previously because there is the routine and structure and visual aids to ensure he understands what he should be doing and is more independent in his work. At his previous school he just used to sit and wait for someone to come over and work with him. And as this is how special needs placements usually are (but do check that at the placement you are wanting for your child), you might actually need to be arguing that the school is not presenting the work in an autism friendly way and that your child is not learning the skills needed to become independent. So when they identify a target area they are working on it usually involves intense one to one on a daily basis to learn the skill, then it is generalised out to other environments and staff, then the adult support of prompting him to use the skill is gradually reduced until he is doing it by himself. Then they will re-assess at a later date that he is still using that skill. If not they up the support and prompting again until he uses it independently again. And this can happen over and over because it is common for learnt skills to be lost or not used again.

Regarding MEPs (a child with a diagnosis of an ASD should really have MEPs and not IEPs as targets should not be just educational), get the Parent Partnership involved to come along to the MEP meetings to make sure that the targets are SMART. By using the PP we were able to demonstrate that my son was not achieving targets and was infact losing skills. It is hard to argue the point on something like a decline in using abusive language in school if you are not there. You can say that there has not been a reduction in that at home and ask them to show you what they do in school so that you can do the same thing at home to see if you achieve the same results. You could speak with the autism outreach/advisory teacher that is in contact with your son/or school and get their opinion on how to broach this at home.

Getting the targets very specific is important. For example my son had a target of initiating play/conversation with other classmates in the playground. At the IEP they said he was 'playing more with other children', and wanted to say that the target had been achieved. I said that there was no evidence that he was 'initiating' it and that was the target. He might be playing more because other children were approaching and initiating play with him. So they drew up a monitoring card which a TA and other adult supervisors had to learn how to complete and everything they saw him initiating conversation or play they had to tick the box. We did this over a period of 2 weeks to gather evidence that he was initiating play. They could demonstrate that and I was happy for say the target was achieved as they had monitored it correctly. But it is also recognised that if he is seen to be spending the majority of the breaktimes on his own and is not seen initiating interaction, that his dedicated TA is to be informed so that they can up the level of support and prompt him to join in with his class mates.

If you are seeking a special placement you need evidence that that is the nearest suitable school that can meet your child's needs. The LEA may well argue that all his needs can be met at his current school. His current school cannot refuse to meet his needs or say they cannot meet his needs. But the school should be encouraged by you as much as possible to accurately record his difficulties and needs so that you as his advocate can present that (along with other reports) as evidence of the level of support he needs. It is only when it becomes a more efficient use of resources that a child usually then moves from mainstream to special needs. And usually it goes to tribunal because there are no SEN places available. Does the placement you want have any places available? Does your son fit the entry criteria with the other pupils?

You can also argue that you want him in a suitable peer group to address his depression, anxiety and self esteem as he is a vulnerable child. If he is self aware say so, and that he knows he is different and cannot do the things that the other children can.

How is he doing academically?

How is he doing socially?

You have to demonstrate how every single need your son has has to be addressed. This should already be in the Statement. Do you think the statement is specific enough in terms of hours of support and staffing provision and therapy input and monitoring of progress etc to make it clear the kind of educational environment and placement he needs. If there is any area of ambiguity, then that needs working on to show that the placement you want is the only nearest suitable school, otherwise the LEA may just say that the current school can do it.

[Sally44]

A further thought about the "reduction in using abusive language" is that if that was a target on his IEP it should state what the current level of usage was eg. 3-5 instances a day. And it should be said 'how' they are going to get that reduction in abusive language - which may actually be down to his frustration of not understanding what he is doing or the point to it. And the outcome should be monitored ie. now he has 1-2 instances a day. And also what are you aiming for? Surely it is for more appropriate behaviour to demonstrate his emotions rather than abuse. This is a common theme with children with ASDs. In our area the EP and school put together an emotional recognition programme to teach the child to recognise their own emotional state and the emotions in others. They might also need to look at how your child asks for help with work. If he hasn't been taught 'how' to do that, then using the abusive language maybe his way of getting the TA or teachers attention, or it is a learnt behaviour that gets him out of having to do the work - especially if he is punished for that abusive language by being sent to the head or another room. And even if the abusive language does reduce, they need to ensure it does not return. Just telling him to 'stop it', maybe not be enough because he is using that language because it is achieving something for him. It might just be achieving demonstrating how upset and angry he is, and although he does need to learn that it is not appropriate or acceptable, they need to make sure they have made it possible for him (by teaching him) to use other appropriate and acceptable ways of communicating. And when you are talking about emotional recognition etc these are things that take time to be learnt.

[Karen A]

Hi

 

Recently made a placing request for my son R (aged 7.5/has AS) to go to a special school, specifically for Autistic and Aspergic kids. R currently attends a mainstream school whereby he's allocated 1-2-1 full-time support. Five out of 22 kids in the class have special needs (R included) and I discovered that Rs learning assistant is being used to support R as well as other 4 kids. I've raised this with the school and they're fully aware how I feel abut this. I believe he's actually only receiving 5 hours per week, given his support is being shared. R has been seen by CAMHS who have said he's suffering from anxiety and possibly depression (hallelujah, they got there in the end!). School admit that R is unpredictable and I have reports as recent as November stating how challenging he is and how they struggle to keep him and others safe. Yet, call me paranoid, but at a recent school review meeting I thought everyone was talking about another child. Also received a copy of Rs IEP today via email and I'm fuming - I've managed to respond in a rational but no-nonsense manner requesting that some of the points be removed or amended (especially the part where it says 'abusive language is now a very rare occurrence in school'). Basically, everything seems to being played down. In addition, because I written to the head of the Education Dept/placing request, I've raised issue of number of kids in Rs class with special needs (1/4 of the class basically). Suddenly, one of the kids has left and went to a special school and school are trying to get rid of another one. I could be being very cynical, but it seems like there's a bit of collusion going on in order to keep R at the school and 'his' funding (the other mums are more than happy to stand around gossiping, but nothing that's proactive in helping their kids eg get support). Surely, I'm losing my marbles ...... or could I have hit the nail on the head?

 

Caroline.

 

Are there any other LSAs or TAs in the class ?

Do you know if any of the other children have Statements ?

We had a similar problem last year.The difficulty I found was that there are no requirements for TAs to be provided in class at all unless a child has a Statement with specific TA support documented.I checked this with the LA and ACE at the time.So if the other children do not have Statements with TA support clearly documented then parents may complain but there is not a lot they can do about it other than perhaps pushing for an accurate IEP. .Ben's TA was the only TA in his class for the whole of last year.It was a very frustrating situation as there were other children in the class who also needed support.However the only way I managed to raise the issue was by having evidence that the TA was not supporting Ben as documented in the Statement.It reached the stage where the staff in other classes,the parent of another child and most of the other parents knew who the TA worked with.....and it was not Ben. Karen.

Edited May 13, 2009 by Karen A

[Sally44]

Hi

 

Recently made a placing request for my son R (aged 7.5/has AS) to go to a special school, specifically for Autistic and Aspergic kids. R currently attends a mainstream school whereby he's allocated 1-2-1 full-time support. Five out of 22 kids in the class have special needs (R included) and I discovered that Rs learning assistant is being used to support R as well as other 4 kids. I've raised this with the school and they're fully aware how I feel abut this. I believe he's actually only receiving 5 hours per week, given his support is being shared. R has been seen by CAMHS who have said he's suffering from anxiety and possibly depression (hallelujah, they got there in the end!). School admit that R is unpredictable and I have reports as recent as November stating how challenging he is and how they struggle to keep him and others safe. Yet, call me paranoid, but at a recent school review meeting I thought everyone was talking about another child. Also received a copy of Rs IEP today via email and I'm fuming - I've managed to respond in a rational but no-nonsense manner requesting that some of the points be removed or amended (especially the part where it says 'abusive language is now a very rare occurrence in school'). Basically, everything seems to being played down. In addition, because I written to the head of the Education Dept/placing request, I've raised issue of number of kids in Rs class with special needs (1/4 of the class basically). Suddenly, one of the kids has left and went to a special school and school are trying to get rid of another one. I could be being very cynical, but it seems like there's a bit of collusion going on in order to keep R at the school and 'his' funding (the other mums are more than happy to stand around gossiping, but nothing that's proactive in helping their kids eg get support). Surely, I'm losing my marbles ...... or could I have hit the nail on the head?

 

Caroline.

 

Are you suggesting that the current mainstream school is trying to keep hold of your son because of the funding you have obtained via the statement and that they are using that support to support other children?

That could be true as I have heard this from both sides ie. a parent feeling their child is not receiving the level of support they need because the school are putting him with another child. Or a mother afraid that a certain child is going the leave the school because her child only receives support via another statemented child. Afterall the LEA has to fund anything extra that the school has to provide in terms of staffing provision for hours of support. But the child that moved to the SEN school must have had a Statement to get a place there and you would hope that they moved that child because their needs were such that an SEN school was the only suitable placement. And as Karen says, you can request that the Statement is fulfilled as it is written, which is why I also queries whether it mentions anything about small group work.

And remember that a relevent placement it isn't all down to academic ability. A child with little academic ability can remain mainstream. It is the learning difficulties consistent with his diagnosis, and the social and communication difficulties consistent with his diagnosis - and the severity of them - that make an SEN placement the better use of resources option for any LEA.

 

[Karen A]

Are you suggesting that the current mainstream school is trying to keep hold of your son because of the funding you have obtained via the statement and that they are using that support to support other children?

That could be true as I have heard this from both sides ie. a parent feeling their child is not receiving the level of support they need because the school are putting him with another child. Or a mother afraid that a certain child is going the leave the school because her child only receives support via another statemented child. Afterall the LEA has to fund anything extra that the school has to provide in terms of staffing provision for hours of support. But the child that moved to the SEN school must have had a Statement to get a place there and you would hope that they moved that child because their needs were such that an SEN school was the only suitable placement. And as Karen says, you can request that the Statement is fulfilled as it is written, which is why I also queries whether it mentions anything about small group work.

And remember that a relevent placement it isn't all down to academic ability. A child with little academic ability can remain mainstream. It is the learning difficulties consistent with his diagnosis, and the social and communication difficulties consistent with his diagnosis - and the severity of them - that make an SEN placement the better use of resources option for any LEA.

 

 

Hi Sally.The level of support does I agree need to be as clear as it can be and the Statement should ideally reflect exactly what the TA should be doing in terms of group work and individual work and how big the groups should be.However it can be possible to demonstrate that the provision within the Statement is not being met even where the Statement is not as tight as it might be.In our case in the broadest sense of the term support should involve the TA being present in the group a child is working in or at least in the same class.

In our case Ben was in the top group and the TA was spending her time with the lower ability groups so was not working with Ben at all.On occasions she was not even present in the class.

The school are now aware that I will take prompt action if I feel Ben is not being appropriately supported.Unfortunately last time I needed to question the use of TA provision the TA was working individually with Ben.He was helping the TA to collate and staple maths papers together. Which he enjoyed.Karen.

Edited May 13, 2009 by Karen A

[cmuir]

Hi

 

Thanks for your replies.

 

Should have added that:

 

In Scotland the equivalent of a satement is a coordinated support plan (CSP). I applied for one two years ago but this was turned down on the grounds that my son's needs weren't great enough, despite the fact multiagencies were involved. I appealed and lost.

 

My biggest grip is that I'm trying to get my son out of mainstream into a special school, but it seems to me that the school are playing things down. I believe this could jeopardise my son's chances of getting a place. I'm still awaiting a decision, so it's going to be an anxious wait - I'm tearing my hair out now!

 

Caroline.

[Karen A]

Hi

 

Thanks for your replies.

 

Should have added that:

 

In Scotland the equivalent of a satement is a coordinated support plan (CSP). I applied for one two years ago but this was turned down on the grounds that my son's needs weren't great enough, despite the fact multiagencies were involved. I appealed and lost.

 

My biggest grip is that I'm trying to get my son out of mainstream into a special school, but it seems to me that the school are playing things down. I believe this could jeopardise my son's chances of getting a place. I'm still awaiting a decision, so it's going to be an anxious wait - I'm tearing my hair out now!

 

Caroline.

 

 

I always do that.Do not notice ''Edinburgh'' and forgett that anyone might live North of about York.

 

[Sally44]

Sorry, me too, I keep not recognising 'north of the border'!

And yes you are right. It can be hard sometimes to get a clear picture of the SEN needs of your child through the LEAs own professionals and that includes the current school. Schools don't like to admit 'failure', or the fact that they 'cannot cope'. Infact in England I don't think a school can admit that!

I have also heard from other parents recently gone through tribunal, that private reports they obtained were deemed 'bought'. I don't understand the legal issues of that, as all professionals have a code of practice and ethics and you simply cannot 'buy' the evidence. Infact the private reports I obtained specified that in their opinion my son could remain mainstream in an Enhanced Resource setting, when I was actually seeking a SEN only placement. But their reports did make my son's statement as tight as a SEN only placement.

It has also been muted around the seminars that this attitude to 'private reports' by some panels might be addressed by getting reports through agencies that do not have a vested interest. I haven't really looked into this yet, but might be worth considering. For example Dyslexia Action can assess and produce a report and they don't have a vested interest in any school. So can an organisation called Bibic (or Bibec, I'll have to google it again to check the spelling). They aren't tied to any type of school either.

So you can get further evidence through those routes, and you can get a private report if you think it would be useful. Other than that you can write specific letters to each professional about the difficulties you feel your son has and ask them how those needs should be met in the school environment. But it is a hard line to tread to be constantly pushing for more specific information whilst not getting confrontational.

I tried to approach my son's last school on the grounds that I wanted him to be in the correct educational environment in junior school because otherwise he would have to go mainstream at secondary age and even his previous school admitted that that was very unlikely. So I told them I needed their support to get information to demonstrate that and therefore I would be sending in letters to school asking for certain information, and that this was not because I was not happy with the effort the school was making, but that I needed this information in writing.

And it wasn't all the school's fault. I found out that none of the professionals who had gone into school to assess my son had ever given the school written advice. So for 3 years the school was acting on verbal information that was often given to a TA and not the teacher, and the thinking behind it was never explained to them. The only reports done were at school action plus level by the SALT and EP and then again 3 years later towards the Statutory Assessment.

I was today phoned by a company following up my tribunal case and asking for my comments on the 'experience'. And I made the comment then that the professionals that observe and assess any child towards a Statement should not be the employees of the LEA. There is, in my mind at least, a conflict of interest.

[Karen A]

I was today phoned by a company following up my tribunal case and asking for my comments on the 'experience'. And I made the comment then that the professionals that observe and assess any child towards a Statement should not be the employees of the LEA. There is, in my mind at least, a conflict of interest.

 

Hi.Numerous reports have supported your view that there must be a conflict of interests inherent in a system where those who are assessing for provision through a Statement are employed by the same people providing it.Karen.

[julieann]

Are you suggesting that the current mainstream school is trying to keep hold of your son because of the funding you have obtained via the statement and that they are using that support to support other children?

Hi Sally 44,

 

Just read this post and it rung a bell.

 

I support a statemented yr10 pupil who is supposed to have 10hrs per week.

Using this 10hr statement I have 6hrs with my yr10 pupil and 4hrs giving whole class support in yrs 7+8

 

The parent isn't aware of this and if I tell her what is happening due to "lack of professionalism" I would be out of a job.

I'm stuck between the devil and the deep blue sea :

 

Julieann

[Sally44]

I think every parent of an SEN child should ask the school on a regular basis (I don't know, maybe once a year), to put in writing exactly how they are supporting the child.

If the child has a Statement the school should be able to specifically state hours and staffing provision. Unless, of course, the Statement does not contain that either.

It is hard for parents to do this because you feel like you are 'not trusting' the school and it can become a bit confrontational. But I think parents just need to try to stay calm and unemotional and just put in writing that as their child has a Statement they would like the school to write back saying exactly how they fulfill the requirements of the Statement.

And it usually does boil down to parents having to ensure their child is being supported as the Statement says. And, as many parents of ASD children will tell you, you cannot ask the child themselves because they all have language and communication difficulties that make it hard to get anything out of them at times.

And, as you say, it does put you in an awkward position. You know the Statement is not being fulfilled, but your loyalties are down to your employer and to protecting your own position as employee.

[cmuir]

Hi

 

In Scotland the equivalent of a Statement is a Coordinated Support Plan. I applied for one 2 years ago and it was turned down. I've applied again recently and know it'll be turned down. Basically, a child has to have multiagencies involved for over a year. Agencies involved with my son have had 'patchy' input. Apparently, his needs aren't great enough. Sounds like I'm being defeeatist, but because my son can walk and talk and appear 'normal' mostly, he simply won't get a statement. So, support, etc cannot be written into a statement or CSP. However, I've already got in writing what support my son's is supposed to get, however, what he's supposed to get and actually gets are two different things.

 

C.

[Karen A]

Hi

 

In Scotland the equivalent of a Statement is a Coordinated Support Plan. I applied for one 2 years ago and it was turned down. I've applied again recently and know it'll be turned down. Basically, a child has to have multiagencies involved for over a year. Agencies involved with my son have had 'patchy' input. Apparently, his needs aren't great enough. Sounds like I'm being defeeatist, but because my son can walk and talk and appear 'normal' mostly, he simply won't get a statement. So, support, etc cannot be written into a statement or CSP. However, I've already got in writing what support my son's is supposed to get, however, what he's supposed to get and actually gets are two different things.

 

C.

 

Hi.I agree.

Ben has a Statement of SEN which is quantified and Qualified.It is reviewd at the Annual Review each year .School are perfectly aware of what they are expected to say and document.What they actually do in practice can be a completely different matter.

At the end of the day even if the TA is present with a child short of being there observing all the time it is almost impossible to show that they are actually working with a child engaged in something related to the child's learning.Karen.

Edited May 17, 2009 by Karen A