Verbal processing and communication skills

[szxmum]

As you know ds was dx with AS at 17yrs. He achieved 10GCSEs - all traditional written paper type of exams. He failed any exam with a verbal or practical element eg his German, Design Technology and Speaking & Listening element of English

 

His reading, writing, spelling and vocabulary skills are all excellent - hand-writing is poor due to poor fine motor skills. He can

talk at length to us (me, dh and dd) about any of his special interests using highly skilled and technical vocabulary.

 

When in company eg at doctors or recent appointment with social worker he exhibits polite listening skills - he will look at the person speaking, he can make eye contact, he nods his head and goes mmmmnnnn a lot ( has learnt this from me ). He does not join in a conversation unless asked a direct question.

 

I am so used to ds being ds that I have never questioned his verbal processing and communication skills - well for years I have been told by professionals he is very clever but just quiet and shy, why should I have?

 

What I have observed is this:

 

1. He never initiates a conversation with anyone outside of me, dh and dd.

2. In a conversation he doesn't pick up on the appropriate time to speak. He has to be asked a direct question.

3. If he can get away with not speaking at all (eg in a shop), he will - even with the family

4. He exhibits very good listening skills and "fools" a lot of people that he understands what they are saying.

5. His understanding of what he has been told in a face-to-face meeting or on the telephone seems to have a limit or a "ceiling" eg during a telephone call with his social worker he had three pieces of information to remember - he managed to relay one to me which he got partially correct but he completely forgot the other two. Now if this information had been written down, he could have read, remembered and relayed the information.

 

I always assumed that his anxiety was in operation here and that was what interfered with his ability to participate in or recount conversations. However, I asked him today and he said that although it can make things worse he wasn't at all anxious during his phone call with the social worker so there seem to be other factors at work here.

 

Does this sound familiar at all to anyone? Any thoughts?

 

Thanks as ever, Szxmumxxx

 

 

 

 

[Tally]

I think all the things in your numbered list are more likely to be to do with avoiding social contact, rather than sensory processing difficulties. The apparent listening skills are probably where he has learned that this behaviour means he gets left in peace. He is just doing what he knows people want him to do for a quiet life. I think a lot of autistic people will do this, and some will even admit to doing things they have not done, just to go along with what other people are saying.

 

There is a time for this, but sometimes it's important that he makes sure he does understand, and speaks up when he does not. This is not so simple, because it's difficult to explain the "rules" about when he needs to act which way.

 

From what you've said about the exams, it does sound like he may well have auditory processing difficulties as well.

[szxmum]

Thanks for your response Tally.

 

I understand the avoidance of social contact - I see that every day in him.

I understand the learnt listening behaviours - doing what people want him to do, anything for a quiet life and to be left alone to do it - I also see that all the time in him.

 

It is the possible auditory processing difficulties that I'm interested in. When I look at how I interact with him, I keep things simple and clear. I also check, double-check and triple-check that he understands me (fwiw we interacted like this long before anyone raised the possibility of AS - I never queried it, it was just the way we learnt to communicate and I had nothing to compare it to).

 

Teaching him to speak up when / if he doesn't understand is going to be mammoth - we've got 17 years of learnt coping strategies to deal with / unlearn, not least of which is ds expertly keeping himself out of potential situations where misunderstanding and subsequent stress / anxiety can arise or ds going into shutdown mode - I don't understand, it'll go away if I pretend it's not there.

 

This is what makes me frustrated - ds is intelligent, achieved exam success - great for the schools league tables but... if he has verbal communication / auditory processing difficulties, they haven't been important enough / obvious enough to address and now we are in a position where his learnt coping strategies are insufficient to allow him to progress any further.

[Sally44]

Alot of the difficulties you describe were part of a questionnaire given to me by my son's SALT to complete.

I think that some people with an ASD do try to avoid social interaction in some situations because of difficulties they have. And these are going to be on a sliding scale. But there is also the point that if your social communication skills are very poor you are almost bound to avoid social interaction because it makes little sense to you.

As you say, if it were all written down to be looked at at leisure and read and re-read as required, then things would be totally different. Or if it were on the computer where the other person sends an email and the other 'knows' it is now their turn to reply - it would all be very different.

But the thing is what can/are you going to do about it?

I don't know if you can still get access to a SALT for them to do this assessment. Or even speak to a SALT for them to send you the same questionnaire as was sent to me. I can't remember the name of it, but it had all kinds questions about actual speech and also about gestures etc.

It asked things like how does your child get your attention or the attention of others. Well my son would say 'mum' to me or 'excuse me', or 'I want to tell you something'. These are a set phrase that he almost has to say to get him started to say what he wants to say. My sister is the same, but she always starts her conversation with 'let me think', then she says what she wants to say. From a gesture point of view he might tug on my clothes or poke me etc. And this questionnaire looks at each skill in this way. It also asks about starting a conversation, taking turns in a conversation, and finishing a conversation.

 

I'm sure you would be able to find a suitably qualified SALT that could also assess and maybe put together a programme to be worked through.

 

Our childrens hospital also has a 'social skills group' for teenagers and I believe they also do work on these types of things.

 

For remembering information, your son might need to be taught to ask 'do I need to write this down?'. And having a small notebook and pen/pencil on him might help. My son is the same. You can give him a 3 part list and he cannot remember it all. Or when assessed by the SALT he was asked to do things like "point to the blue car before the red truck", and he would point immediately at the red truck. Or 'put the bucket infront of the truck before you put the box behind it'. Again he put the bucket infront of the truck. Now it is not that he does not understand the words because he does. if he was given the instructions slower and given time to process them, then he might get it right. Or if he were taught that there were 2 instructions he had to listen for etc. But if there is alot of auditory information we ALL remember the first or the last thing said to us. If we find processing harder, then we are going to frequently find that we have remembered only part of what was said. So your son may need to be taught ways of coping with this type of information.

 

As is very typical, it sounds like his expressive language is much more advanced than his receptive language. And frequently children like this and over looked because they appear to be perfectly capable. But having poor receptive language affects every aspect of learning and social interaction.

 

He has learnt how to 'appear' interested and nod at the right times. That is very good. But again it is masking the fact that he probably is either not understand all of what is being said to him, or if he is getting it he still does not have the conversational skills to be able to hold a conversation.

 

 

[trekster]

As you know ds was dx with AS at 17yrs. He achieved 10GCSEs - all traditional written paper type of exams. He failed any exam with a verbal or practical element eg his German, Design Technology and Speaking & Listening element of English

 

i was diagnosed as AS at age 16 following my GCSEs. i didnt get as many as your son, i also had problems with verbal elements of exams. However i only struggled with English element due to my fear of my teacher (diagnosis was post results).

His reading, writing, spelling and vocabulary skills are all excellent - hand-writing is poor due to poor fine motor skills. He can

talk at length to us (me, dh and dd) about any of his special interests using highly skilled and technical vocabulary.

 

Im the same, i can do it with familiar people but not really very well "on the spot". Something to do with interpreting the intentions of the open questions. Which would explain why i could manage my French and Spanish speaking (didnt have to speak during pottery).

When in company eg at doctors or recent appointment with social worker he exhibits polite listening skills - he will look at the person speaking, he can make eye contact, he nods his head and goes mmmmnnnn a lot ( has learnt this from me ). He does not join in a conversation unless asked a direct question.

 

i don't think he is aware when his comments could be useful, he might be appearing to listen to the conversation. If you have asked direct questions about the appointment afterwards then hes listening. We aspies can find ways of appearing to listen so we're not picked up about "not listening".

I am so used to ds being ds that I have never questioned his verbal processing and communication skills - well for years I have been told by professionals he is very clever but just quiet and shy, why should I have?

 

i can see what you mean as unless you compare his AS to another quieter AS lad of similar age you aren't to know. That isn't a failing in you as a parent, you have noticed this problem in your son communicating and that makes you a good parent as you wish to find out more to help him.

What I have observed is this:

 

1. He never initiates a conversation with anyone outside of me, dh and dd.

 

Does that include if they visit the house?

2. In a conversation he doesn't pick up on the appropriate time to speak. He has to be asked a direct question.

 

Most asperger teens can be like this, however you would expect him to interrupt conversations or accidentally talk over you sometimes.

3. If he can get away with not speaking at all (eg in a shop), he will - even with the family

 

This sounds like something called "selective silence" (selective mutism). It's an extreme form of social anxiety which causes problems with being able to speak when he feels under stress. That doesn't mean anyone else is putting him under stress just that he has a lower tolerance to stress than non selective silent folk. Im not sure but i think it's related to social phobia. Your son literally cannot speak under certain situations due to his overpowering anxiety and poor self confidence. Most autistics have poor self confidence. You haven't caused this to happen to your son but you can help him overcome it, Tony Atwood briefly mentions "selective mutism" (old name for "selective silence" as this condition isnt a choice to refuse to speak) in his "complete guide to asperger syndrome".

4. He exhibits very good listening skills and "fools" a lot of people that he understands what they are saying.

 

Hard to tell exactly what we do and dont understand due to our inability to predict what information and how detailed that information is to be fed back to the listener.

5. His understanding of what he has been told in a face-to-face meeting or on the telephone seems to have a limit or a "ceiling" eg during a telephone call with his social worker he had three pieces of information to remember - he managed to relay one to me which he got partially correct but he completely forgot the other two. Now if this information had been written down, he could have read, remembered and relayed the information.

 

i have the same problem, accessing my autisitc memory is very frustrating. For me i think its connected with my dyslexia (so i misremember stuff). Nowadays i write down anything someone wants me to pass on (better still ask them to tell the person themselves so they know that person has the information). im not always the best relay station for people which is why i prefer written and typed communication.

I always assumed that his anxiety was in operation here and that was what interfered with his ability to participate in or recount conversations. However, I asked him today and he said that although it can make things worse he wasn't at all anxious during his phone call with the social worker so there seem to be other factors at work here.

 

Does this sound familiar at all to anyone? Any thoughts?

 

Thanks as ever, Szxmumxxx

 

He would be anxious with public places like school, college, the local pub, shops etc. He might not recognise anxiety in himself.

 

Alexis

 

[trekster]

I think all the things in your numbered list are more likely to be to do with avoiding social contact, rather than sensory processing difficulties. The apparent listening skills are probably where he has learned that this behaviour means he gets left in peace. He is just doing what he knows people want him to do for a quiet life. I think a lot of autistic people will do this, and some will even admit to doing things they have not done, just to go along with what other people are saying.

 

Ah yes over-compliance "agreeing to everything even if untrue" (NAS autism alert card)

There is a time for this, but sometimes it's important that he makes sure he does understand, and speaks up when he does not. This is not so simple, because it's difficult to explain the "rules" about when he needs to act which way.

 

From what you've said about the exams, it does sound like he may well have auditory processing difficulties as well.

 

Would dyslexia count as an auditory processing difficulty? im having problems getting members of our social group to speak up and let social secretaries (myself and another asperger) know what they want organising. i would be really annoyed if i was told "you never organise anything".

 

Alexis

 

[trekster]

Thanks for your response Tally.

 

I understand the avoidance of social contact - I see that every day in him.

I understand the learnt listening behaviours - doing what people want him to do, anything for a quiet life and to be left alone to do it - I also see that all the time in him.

 

It is the possible auditory processing difficulties that I'm interested in. When I look at how I interact with him, I keep things simple and clear. I also check, double-check and triple-check that he understands me (fwiw we interacted like this long before anyone raised the possibility of AS - I never queried it, it was just the way we learnt to communicate and I had nothing to compare it to).

 

Its good you have found an efficient way to communicate with him. My mum just tends to be unapproachable as her reaction puts you off asking in the 1st place. Then you get stuck as she complains that people keep things from her.

Teaching him to speak up when / if he doesn't understand is going to be mammoth - we've got 17 years of learnt coping strategies to deal with / unlearn, not least of which is ds expertly keeping himself out of potential situations where misunderstanding and subsequent stress / anxiety can arise or ds going into shutdown mode - I don't understand, it'll go away if I pretend it's not there.

 

No it wont go away if you pretend it's not there. it is a part of asperger syndrome to be vulnerable to internal anxiety at higher levels than NTs.

This is what makes me frustrated - ds is intelligent, achieved exam success - great for the schools league tables but... if he has verbal communication / auditory processing difficulties, they haven't been important enough / obvious enough to address and now we are in a position where his learnt coping strategies are insufficient to allow him to progress any further.

 

i have a similar frustration with myself. ive got 16 qualifications (brother counted them the other day) including a higher education diploma. But im unable to put across a convincing application due to the negativity about autism. It can get better ive found ways to deal with my anxieties and i blow up less and under more stress than before.

 

Alexis

 

[Tally]

People with ASd often do have difficulty remembering a series of information conveyed verbally. With auditory prosessing difficulties, speach may be unintelligible and he may not know what is being said. In this type of difficulty, a person may hear and understand the words perfectly well, but have difficulty processing the information in such a way that they actually remember what to do about what has been said.

 

In some situations, people can be persuaded to give written instructions. In other situations, your son might find it helpful to write his own list. That way, he can read it back and check he's got it down correctly, in the same way that people often read back a phone number.

 

I would suggest his difficulties have been ignored because he has been so good at disguising them.

[Sally44]

The questionnaire I was asked to complete is called "Talkability". I had to complete one and so did his TA in school.

It is pages and pages long and asks such things as:-

 

"Does your child ask the following questions:-

 

Hi, how are you? never sometimes often

Hi, what's your name? never sometimes often

What are you doing? never sometimes often

 

 

give examples:"

 

 

The questionnaire also asks:-

 

When greeted does the child respond verbally.

Do they make eye contact with the person who has spoken to them.

Do they make any other gesture to them eg. wave.

 

 

I found this a very good questionnaire as it highlights alot of things that the child can or cannot do.

There is also another way of on-going monitoring and assessment called SCERTS. Both SCERTS and Talkability are something a SALT would use.

[szxmum]

Alexis and Sally - thank you so much for your input. I'm full of 'flu at the moment so I'm not processing myself to well at the moment I'm definitely going to come back to this when my head is clearer.

 

 

 

... a person may hear and understand the words perfectly well, but have difficulty processing the information in such a way that they actually remember what to do about what has been said.

 

This jumped out at me (even through my thick head ). Ds hears and understands spoken language perfectly well - it is the processing of the information in order to respond or enact an outcome where he struggles. If he is in a loud, noisy, busy, bright environment where his senses are overloaded he cannot communicate (listen and respond); if he is highly anxious he cannot communicate (listen and respond) - he shuts down.

 

I've known this and we have adapted his environment accordingly. However, I have never thought about him having difficulties processing large volumes of spoken information until this last week when I observed it clearly on two seperate occasions.

 

I would suggest his difficulties have been ignored because he has been so good at disguising them.

 

Yes he has been expert at disguising and mimicking. I've also learnt that this is called "compensating" and that people compensate until they run out of coping and compensating skills.

 

Thx again guys - sorry but I'm heading back to bed but I do want to get my head around this more when I'm feeling better.

Love Szxmumxxx

Edited November 10, 2009 by szxmum