Abstract thought and Asp?

[Nora]

Hello,

 

I was wondering if it is possible to be good with abstract thought and yet still have aspergers? My 10 year old son certainly ticks many boxes and we are at the point of starting the road to diagnosis. However, he readily gets tricky questions right. Amongst others, I asked him the questions in Tony Attwood's book about the double bluff and the white lie and he got them right without hesitating. Is this area of misconception part of the actual diagnosis or it is just a possible area of strength for my son but wouldn't mean that he couldn't have aspergers because he ticks so many of the other boxes?

 

Many thanks, Nora

Edited November 24, 2009 by Nora

[baddad]

Hi Nora -

Generally, IMO, no. Having said that, though, there's a problem inherent in recognising what equates to 'abstract thought', because so many variables (age, experience, education, previous exposure to similar 'types' of problems...) will mean that individual performance varies greatly.

If you take, for example, a 'theory of mind' test like the dolly being put in the basket or the one where the 'policeman can't see the robber because of the hill', these are quite age specific skills, and are more used as a gauge to indicate that a child hasn't developed theory of mind yet rather than that they do not have the ability to develop theory of mind or that when they do it will continue to be compromised. Also, once someone has learned the answer to one of these questions (and developed, if rote learning is a factor that needs to be taken into account, the ability to generalise that concept) then they have a model for solving other similar problems...

 

Once you get past a certain level of competency/understanding any compromise in abstract thinking will be evident more in ineractional/personal/social skills, which demand 'thinking on your feet' and social abstract thinking like gauging context, situation, timing etc in combination, than in relatively simple 'problem solving' where those combinations are largely absent, or do not have to be gauged in 'real time'.

 

Hope that makes sense (?), but in a nutshell no - if these kinds of problems aren't a factor or are only very minor then a full diagnisis would (IMO) seem unlikely. Though the 'triad of impairment' is considered to be something of an oversimplification it does form the basis of most subsequent diagnostic models and it does highlight precisely these kind of thinking problems as part of the diagnostic criteria.

 

L&P

 

BD

 

[Sally44]

Hello,

 

I was wondering if it is possible to be good with abstract thought and yet still have aspergers? My 10 year old son certainly ticks many boxes and we are at the point of starting the road to diagnosis. However, he readily gets tricky questions right. Amongst others, I asked him the questions in Tony Attwood's book about the double bluff and the white lie and he got them right without hesitating. Is this area of misconception part of the actual diagnosis or it is just a possible area of strength for my son but wouldn't mean that he couldn't have aspergers because he ticks so many of the other boxes?

 

Many thanks, Nora

 

Can you be a bit more specific in what he can do, and what you think ticks the boxes?

[Nora]

Dear BD,

 

Many thanks for taking the time to give me such an interesting and knowledgeable answer. Yes, it does all make sense to me and I can see how complicated it can all get. I am going to do some more research into this. My son certainly ticks a lot of the other boxes - perhaps he's "just" slightly eccentric... well he definitely is slightly eccentric which is not necessary a bad thing of course.

 

Thanks again for your fascinating reply.

 

Nora

 

 

 

 

 

[Nora]

Dear Sally

 

Thanks for trying to help.

 

Here is a copy of my original post a few days ago:

 

 

Hi,

 

I would be really really grateful for your help and advice… I am feeling pretty confused and unhappy.

 

My son is 10 and Aspergers was first mentioned when he was back in Year 1. I have been worried about it ever since but teachers/SENCOs/Heads have said that he doesn’t have it – “he’s very engaging” is what his last SENCO told me.

 

At first, he seemed very very bright, he learnt his numbers and alphabet quickly and was a very precocious talker. He could recite passages from books at a very early age and used to call out the isle numbers in supermarkets. It came as a great shock to see in his Yr 2 SATS results that he was behind in everything – a whole year behind in his writing. His spelling is terrible and yet he can write the most creative, imaginative stuff. He has invented several games.

 

He’s recently moved to a new school and has been looked at by an Ed Pysche for the second time. The first one didn’t think he had Aspergers. The new one obviously couldn’t diagnose but said that he certainly showed many of the characteristics of Aspergers. He is registered as having SEN and is getting help with spellings, handwriting and organising his work. The Ed Pysche said that school are doing all they can and that getting a diagnosis wouldn’t really change much other than perhaps getting advice from an Autistic specialist.

 

I am now torn between going down the route of diagnosis or just waiting to see how things develop. I kind of feel happier thinking of his as being a bit eccentric and creative and am scared of him being labelled. But then I read that children who had had an earlier diagnosis did better in the long run. I can see that it could help us train him to be more socially aware if necessary, to understand more and of course he has secondary school looming.

 

He doesn’t have any extreme or problem behaviours that are not being managed. He is ok with abstract thought, has good eye contact, is ok with routine changes and understands other people’s emotions, he doesn’t have tantrums BUT, he can talk incessantly, other kids have called him weird, he can make a lot of silly, loud noises and makes strange physical movements and facial expressions, he can sometimes take things literally, has problems with loud noises, has a limited diet and has found appropriate friendships difficult. I fear that there is low level bullying going on at school – he came home yesterday with marks on his face that had been made by the board rubber. His first obsession was trains but he never ever lined them up but he did make train noises all the time. He is incredibly smiley and friendly and will talk to anyone.

 

I am spending hours trawling through websites, answering questionnaires and coming up with Yes, No, Yes, No, Yes, No. Perhaps he is borderline if that’s possible? I keep asking him test questions to try and find an answer. I am worrying 24 hours a day. I think I need to prepare myself for them actually saying that he does have it if I go down the diagnosis route.

 

Please can anyone give me some wisdom and advice.

 

Thank you,

 

Nora X

 

 

[Karen A]

Dear BD,

 

Many thanks for taking the time to give me such an interesting and knowledgeable answer. Yes, it does all make sense to me and I can see how complicated it can all get. I am going to do some more research into this. My son certainly ticks a lot of the other boxes - perhaps he's "just" slightly eccentric... well he definitely is slightly eccentric which is not necessary a bad thing of course.

 

Thanks again for your fascinating reply.

 

Nora

 

Hi Nora.I thought I would say that if you think your son does tick other boxes please do not be put off requesting an assessment on the basis of abstract thinking.

Ben was diagnosed with AS last year.It took three years for professionals to make a diagnosis.Ben is very bright.He is able to think about concepts in ways that I would consider abstract.More able than me.

For example Ben has a complex knowledge regarding the development of world war two and the various factors involved.He is currently at level 7 in history at age 11.When it comes to history,art or music Ben can think in very creative ways.He also knows an awful lot about many things.

However if Ben is given a simple text to read and is asked to make an assessment of what a person might be thinking or if he is asked to judge what an individual might do next he will reply that he has no idea because the text does not say.

Ben would certainly be considered unusual but he did have AS even when some excellent professionals thought he was much too able.

 

[Karen A]

Hi.

I have just read your last post and could have been reading about Ben three years ago.

Ben was not picked up until he was in year 2 as having SEN.

However during primary school his behaviour did become more challenging as he became more anxious due to lack of provision and lack of awareness of his needs.

As your son is 10 it might be worth considering whether having a diagnosis might help with provision in secondary school.Even for children with AS who do well at primary school secondary school can be a challenge.

It took three years of debate amongst various professionals before Ben obtained a diagnosis because they could not agree.

If your son does not fulfill the criteria he is very unlikely to recieve a false positive diagnosis.It is far more often the case that professionals feel that a child is borderline but does not meet all of the criteria.

If your son does recieve a diagnosis he may still not need and you may not want any other support or input.Provision for SEN is only put in place anyway where there is evidence of SEN.

Advice from an ASD specialist teacher may be very useful for staff at secondary school.SALT input might also be useful.Both of these may only be available to pupils who have a confirmed AS diagnosis.Also if your son has AS he may well find the Social aspects of secondary school life and the organisation needed are more difficult than the educational aspects such as numeracy and literacy.A diagnisis of AS is often needed for support with these areas of school life because these difficulties are what makes ASD different to other forms of SEN.

I have been considering the issue of diagnosis myself.Although we recieved verbal confirmation we have never recieved a formal written diagnosis of AS from CAMHS.

As Ben finishes with CAMHS in three weeks we are in the process of deciding whether to request confirmation re the diagnosis in writing.

Unless anyone here tells me otherwise the only difficulties with having an AS diagnosis I have come across are that an individual cannot join the armed forces and that it might have to be declared on a driving liscence application.

We have found that at secondary school because staff understand that Ben has AS and usually are supportive he is needing less support than we could ever have expected.Although Ben's peers have not always been supportive I think that some of them would have regarded Ben as odd anyway.At least in having a diagnosis Ben has more rights as regards bullying and we can be firm in requesting that school deal with the issue.

Karen.

Edited November 24, 2009 by Karen A

[got the tshirt]

I too am in a similar situation with Dd3, who is very bright, learnt numbers and letters very early and could read before school, But she ticks loads of boxes for AS such as Fixed routines, anxiety, problems with noise and smells too, difficulty relating to other children. We have seen a pead who says she is Quirky and definatly borderline. The issue for us is do we push for a dx. I feel that her quirkiness is becoming more obvious as she gets older.

Sorry haven't been much help I must read up on abstract thought, I don't even know what it is, then again I think I am probably AS too, maybe thats why I don't know what it is !!!

[Nora]

Thanks again for your help.

 

If you look up "theory of mind" you will find some interesting ideas.

 

I have woken up today with the usual Yes, No, Yes, No, Yes, No.....

 

I also forgot to mention that his reading has always been ok. I am going to speak with the Head who has told me she will speak to the Ed Pycho again.

 

Thanks Nora

[Karen A]

Thanks again for your help.

 

If you look up "theory of mind" you will find some interesting ideas.

 

I have woken up today with the usual Yes, No, Yes, No, Yes, No.....

 

I also forgot to mention that his reading has always been ok. I am going to speak with the Head who has told me she will speak to the Ed Pycho again.

 

Thanks Nora

 

Hi again.Ben has an ability to read text that is very advanced.He has been able to read books with adult text for some time.However there is a difference between his ability to read text and his comprehension.

There is a specific label for children who have a greatly advanced reading ability and some other characteristics on the ASD spectrum.It is hyperlaxia.However if a child has AS then an AS diagnosis may well be more helpful than a label of hyperlexia which may not lead to appropriate support.However you might find it interesting to google the topic.Karen.

Edited November 25, 2009 by Karen A