Sudden anger in Aspies

[tails1989]

Just wondered if anyone has any thoughts/advice on anger. I personally am calm the vast majority of the time, but find that I have very sudden bursts of anger where I become very agressive. Just to recount one story, a short time ago I had been persuaded to go to a social event that I had no desire to go to. I wasn't in the best of moods, and when I was there I got trapped by an annoying person who picked at my lack of social niceties, criticising my posture/lack of eye contact etc etc. These jabs kept winding me up but I made no comment until he claimed that I had got something wrong that I knew was in fact right, at which point I flared up, screaming across the fairly crowded room that he was a 'pretentious c**t' - apparently my brother also had to restrain me from hitting him although I was oblivious to this at the time. Thirty seconds later (probably less) I was completely back to normal, and wished I hadn't created such a stir...

 

Anway, this sort of behaviour is obviously undesirable for several reasons:

 

- I always end up looking like the trouble-maker...no one noticed the other guy's wounding comments, only me screaming insults at him.

 

- I am out of control during this brief period of anger, and am worried about causing physical harm that I do not in any way intend.

 

So, is this sort of behaviour typical in people with autism, or am I just a rude b*****d? What can I do to get my temper under control?

[trekster]

i have also struggled with anger and rages. It happens in autistics due to a variety of triggers,

in this case it was someone pulling your self confidence to pieces after you had been convinced

to go to an event. Maybe you were angry at yourself for not persuading them to back off when they

convinced you a social event would be a good idea?

 

What you are describing is an autistic meltdown or rage attack. ive found a few books have helped me

understand what triggers me off and what can keep me calm. Going gluten and dairy free completely

helped reduce the meltdowns, also having b6 and mag and calcium supplements.

 

"the little book of no" could help with telling people that "no means no".

 

i hope you can find social events in future that you will feel more accepted at.

 

http://www.autism.org.uk/directory/search-results/pg=1.aspx for social groups aimed at those on

the spectrum like yourself and me. i happen to volunteer at Bristol and Baths social groups and

if you live nearby would welcome you there sometime.

 

People dont realise how those on the spectrum's self confidence can be shattered in a couple of seconds.

It can be typical of some autistics, if it is happening a lot it could indicate secondary depression.

When i get angry on a number of occasions i find taking 400mg of b6 helps me.

[coolblue]

Your temper isn't out of control. You just allowed yourself to get into a situation that other people would walk away from. You didn't want to go to the party, you didn't want the annoying person to talk to you. Trekster is right, learning to say no and meaning it is key.

 

cb

[Mumble]

I would just like to make it clear and bring some balance here in noting that anger and violence are not symptoms of or part of the diagnostic criteria for ASD.

 

I do not wish to reawaken a previous similar discussion, I am just concerned with ensuring that anyone, particularly guests coming to the forum who may have a more limited understanding of ASD and be looking to learn more, are given a balanced picture.

 

Anyone can be angry/violent for a variety of reasons. ASD, in and of itself, does not make you more or less angry or violent.

[Tally]

It's a bit of an odd thing to do, to criticise someone's posture and eye contact. It does sound like this person was more than annoying and was actually very rude. Perhaps if you'd felt able you would have walked away from the conversation earlier before you completely lost control. Even saying something that would normally be considered rude might have been an appropriate way to leave this particular conversation. I think if you'd quietly said what you shouted and then walked off, that might have been an entirely appropriate way of handling this situation.

 

Perhaps learning to walk away before you lose control could be something you could try. This can be difficult if you have difficulty recognising your emotions, but it can be a bit easier if you look for physical symptoms.

 

I've never heard of such sudden loss of control or memory loss being associated with autism though.

[call me jaded]

I'm sorry if this is going to sound confrontational but speedy and extreme anger in an autistic person to something that may seem trivial to someone else is a known phenomenon. There is plenty of research out there. Tony Attwood does a fair job of describing the kind of difficulties experienced in not being able to recognise emotions (and therefore gain control of them) in 'A Complete Guide to Asperger's Syndrome'. It's one of the things that Cognitive Behavioural Therapy can address.

[baddad]

I'm sorry if this is going to sound confrontational but speedy and extreme anger in an autistic person to something that may seem trivial to someone else is a known phenomenon. There is plenty of research out there. Tony Attwood does a fair job of describing the kind of difficulties experienced in not being able to recognise emotions (and therefore gain control of them) in 'A Complete Guide to Asperger's Syndrome'. It's one of the things that Cognitive Behavioural Therapy can address.

 

 

I also don't have any wish to sound confrontational, but feel it's only fair to qualify the above with the observation that speedy and extreme anger in NT people to something that may seem trivial to someone else is also a known phenomena, and can be found in any text book on human psychology. Though the causes can be many and varied, the most simplistic definitions arise around the terminology of 'overcontrolled' and 'undercontrolled' types. Human psychology goes far deeper than labels like autism, and that's something that even professionals often seem inclined to overlook.

The key to overcoming anger issues, whether autistic or NT, is in identifying triggers, taking responsibility for the responses and consequences, and finding strategies that can help with all of those. Whichever routes you take to find/develop such coping strategies I hope you can find some answers. I don't know a great deal about CBT, but think it sometimes involves 'visualisation' techniques. I think some autistic people are 'visual thinkers' (Temple Grandin identifies herself in this way), and I guess that for those who are visualisation can be a very useful coping mechanism. Other autistic people may find language based techniques more appropriate (counselling techniques, variations on the theme of 'social stories' etc) but basically, there any interventions do, as always, have to be tailored to the individual.

And, no, in my experience the levels of aggression you write of are no way 'typical' in autism, but are typical in the 'overcontrolled' personality type whether autistic or NT. That may sound contradictory, but you say that you are calm for the vast majority of the time and have an occassionally explosive and uncontrollable temper. Overcontrolled types are mostly extremely passive (hence 'overcontrolled') but because they lack experience of anger tend to not recognise boundaries when they do lose it. Undercontrolled personality types, on the other hand, are generally aggressive ('undercontrolled') and for this reason are unlikely to 'lose it', though the levels of violence they enact casually may well be equally extreme, just carried out with full awareness. Of course, these are the polar ends of a 'continuum' and many other factors also come into the equation.

Sorry I didn't get time to add that earlier but i had a son to get to golf!

 

L&P

 

BD

Edited October 17, 2010 by baddad

[tails1989]

Dear all,

 

I am anxious to avoid any misunderstanding on this issue and feel that I may have formulated my initial post a little badly - I am not claiming that anger is a symptom of autism (which, as rightly pointed out, forms no part of the diagnostic criteria), but am rather attempting to broach the issue of why (as it appears to me from what I have read/experienced) sudden and extreme anger is so often a byproduct of the condition. As another post pointed out, anger is common to all human beings, but it seems to me that the way that anger is manifested could vary in autistic people. This is why I outlined my own experience, because it seems to me to illustrate that very difference. First, the build-up of anger is in my opinion different, as I feel that anger does not really build up at all for me, but rather explodes out of nowhere when nobody (myself included sometimes) expects it. Second, when I get angry, I feel my anger is different in that it is intense (to the point of being out of control) but equally brief. Finally, after an outburst I quickly regain equanimity and while others are shocked I just want to continue as normal. Now, I might be wrong, but I feel that this expression of anger is different to that of a 'normal' person. From what I have read, outbursts such as I have described can commonly be observed in those with autism, but I welcome any comments/experiences you might have had as to whether it can be said to be true that a contrasting relationship to anger as an emotion is (or can be) found in those with autism.

 

Best wishes,

T

[call me jaded]

Agreed 100% Baddad. The downside is that DDA causes parents and carers to link autism and anger. Inability to control anger on its own is rarely a disability for which reasonable adjustments must be made. However link the anger to autism (as in an inability to recognise the emotion, etc) and it definitely will be seen as something that must be taken into account.

 

I've spent a great deal of time this term already with a student and a secondary school where we are trying to find the boundaries of behaviour that must be sanctioned, extreme impulsiveness that can be a danger to other pupils, and giving the pupil a chance in mainstream education. I'm really not sure where it'll go yet, but it will balance on whether he can implement the strategies he has been given. In this instance it's been quite useful to be able to cite several autism experts who link anger with the condition.

[baddad]

From what I have read, outbursts such as I have described can commonly be observed in those with autism, but I welcome any comments/experiences you might have had as to whether it can be said to be true that a contrasting relationship to anger as an emotion is (or can be) found in those with autism.

 

Best wishes,

T

 

Hi again T -

Yes, outbursts like the ones you've described can be (commonly - it depends what you mean by 'commonly') observed in those with autism, but are also (commonly) observed in the non-autistic population. I think in recent years there may be a 'cause and effect' shift in thinking that has actually led to a situation where it is sometimes assumed and even expected in people with autism, and that factor, rather than a pathological, physiological or psychological predisposition, has 'created' a difference that was not actually there to begin with. Certainly many young people with autism are growing up in environments where behavioural expectations are lowered, and are offered their diagnosis as an explanation for these lowered expectations. It is well established in psychology and 'urban folklore' that if you tell someone something often enough - particularly in childhood - it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. Thinking within my own family, my Nephew (autistic) is much less likely to lose his temper than his sister (NT). His sisters frequent outbursts are 'Just Emily being Emily'(name changed to protect the guilty), but on the very odd occasion William (NCTPTG again) loses his temper - even when with b00dy good reason - it will more often than not be judged 'because he's autistic'. I have big rows even among my own family about this, and they all agree with me... until the next time they make exactly the same inappropriate and unreasonable judgements!

Looking at the 'older' autistic community, who generally grew up in environments without the lowered behavioural expectations, the prevelance of 'explosive temper' seems (IMO) pretty much comporable with the NT population.

Another factor I think currently relevant is that definitions regarding what autism means have shifted massively, yet differences across the spectrum have been poorly established. Profoundly autistic people may be responding/interacting/not interacting with the world very differently from high functioning autistics or aspergers, and consequently may react (i.e.) 'explosively' or 'aggressively' to stimuli that, to them, are very real, frightening and challenging, and for which they are genuinely unable to develop strategies to control purely and simply because the stimuli are conceptually beyond their comprehension. These kinds of responses, it seems to me, are often 'appropriated' by autistic people, and/or their carers, to justify or ingore behaviours that are not conceptually beyond them to understand and that they would be capable of developing strategies to overcome.

 

Anger and aggression are neither symptoms nor byproducts of autism. They are both perfectly natural and normal responses to threatening (whether the threat is real or just perceived) or challenging or upsetting situations, and apply for all human beings whether autistic or not. In today's society these perfectly natural responses have largely been rendered inappropriate, and anyone (whether autistic or not) who has the capacity or means to redirect their feelings into alternative behaviours and responses will benefit, in most sections of our society, hugely from doing so. Those who don't, if they cannot find a 'niche' where there aggression is beneficial to them, will suffer consequences, those consequences varying hugely depending on the levels of aggression and/or control they do or can enact.

 

Personally, I know far more autistic people who aren't explosive or aggressive than I know who are (though I accept that may not be the case for other people using the boards). Thinking about non-autistic people I choose to socialise with I would say the same thing applies, but thinking of society in general and in cross section I really wouldn't be quite so confident...

 

HTH

 

L&P

 

BD

 

PS - Hi jaded. Just seen your post as I went to post, and yes, i agree that where 'inability to recognise the emotion' (whether arising from autism or not) is a factor it needs to be taken into account. It is the blind assumption, often made in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary, that autism automatically implies an 'inability to recognise the emotion' that's wrong. All children are born without the ability to 'recognise the emotion'. Almost all children, including autistic children, are capable of learning that ability. Huge numbers of Children - autistic and NT - are not achieving that understanding, more often because the expectation has been undermined rather than for any other reason. If the child happens to be autistic he will be called 'victim'. If he isn't autistic he will be called 'bully'. Both are just children who haven't learned to recognise their emotions, or who can recognise them but haven't learnt appropriate responses to them.

 

BD

[Tally]

I don't think that tails is blaming his autism for his anger, and he is actually looking for a way to address the outbursts rather than using autism as an excuse to justify doing nothing about them. To do that, you do need to bear the autism in mind when looking at solutions.

 

The usual approach with anger is to learn to recognise it early before it becomes out of control. With autism, this can be very difficult because difficulty recognising emotions is common. Whether Tails' difficuly with this is due to the autism or something else is not really important. The fact is, he has this difficulty and so approaches that might help people who have this difficulty due to autism could be the ones he needs to use.

 

Tails' difficulty in recognising other people's feelings after the outbursts are also something that would be common in autism. Again, it's not really relevant whether his difficulty in this area due to his autism or not, if strategies designed for people with autism might help him.

[Karen A]

Hi.

I do not have AS.However I have experienced times in my life when I have become very angry suddenly in response to seemingly trivial events.I have never been violent but could become very stroppy which was not pleasant for those around me who often had no idea of what had caused the problem.

 

I do not have this problem now having learned various strategies which I think are just as relevant whether a person has AS or not.

 

I learned to spot the physical signs of becoming stressed.

I learned to identify early a build up of small events.. so recognising that a social event was not what I wanted to do and saying no rather than being persuaded.

I learned to go out for a walk or do something else rather than getting into a debate with people.

I started to exercise regularly as a way of dealing with stress.Physical exercise which is fairly hard work is best I find...several times a week if I am stressed.

I have also added some activities that I enjoy such as making bread....dough needs a good beating.

In the early days my husband and myself also agreed that if he gave me a signal I would know to listen.I would go out for a walk even to the local shop.

 

I have found that the thing I become angry about does not always relate to whatever thing triggers it.It may be a minor issue which is the last straw.Often at the time I had no idea what had triggered the outburst.So it did help to take a breather and some time to calm down.

 

It is far more helpful in my opinion to identify that I am becoming anxious or stressed [which in my case was what was the emotion behind the anger] and do something about that than to become angry.At least when I prevent the outburst other people are not left confused and wondering what minor thing caused such an outrageous response.

 

Having Ben who has AS I can appreciate that it may make it more difficult to identify emotions and to be self aware.However I know that Ben has come a long way in learning to manage what can be very high levels of frustration and anxiety.

Karen.

[Karen A]

Dear all,

 

I am anxious to avoid any misunderstanding on this issue and feel that I may have formulated my initial post a little badly - I am not claiming that anger is a symptom of autism (which, as rightly pointed out, forms no part of the diagnostic criteria), but am rather attempting to broach the issue of why (as it appears to me from what I have read/experienced) sudden and extreme anger is so often a byproduct of the condition. As another post pointed out, anger is common to all human beings, but it seems to me that the way that anger is manifested could vary in autistic people. This is why I outlined my own experience, because it seems to me to illustrate that very difference. First, the build-up of anger is in my opinion different, as I feel that anger does not really build up at all for me, but rather explodes out of nowhere when nobody (myself included sometimes) expects it. Second, when I get angry, I feel my anger is different in that it is intense (to the point of being out of control) but equally brief. Finally, after an outburst I quickly regain equanimity and while others are shocked I just want to continue as normal. Now, I might be wrong, but I feel that this expression of anger is different to that of a 'normal' person. From what I have read, outbursts such as I have described can commonly be observed in those with autism, but I welcome any comments/experiences you might have had as to whether it can be said to be true that a contrasting relationship to anger as an emotion is (or can be) found in those with autism.

 

Best wishes,

T

 

 

A few guesses which is all they are.

 

People with AS might have to cope with higher levels of anxiety due to Social demands,sensory triggers or lack of understanding by others.Anger is a secondary emotion in response to anxiety or other emotions.So it could be that some people with ASD respond to increased anxiety by becoming angry.

 

But.

I now regard myself as fairly normal.

However my resonse to anger at times was identical to what you describe which was certainly not a normal reaction.

However the fact that I have changed my way of dealing with anger shows that it can be done,I believe that Ben might need some slightly different strategies to manage his frustration....or not.But I do not believe that having AS makes it impossible for him to learn to manage anxiety and frustation in healthy ways.

 

I think it worth saying having had identical ways of not dealing with anger to yourself that I think dealing with it in healthy ways is worth doing.The alternative is to risk confusing other people and alienating them and to risk an accident due to doing something when out of control.

 

I can also be honest having been there.When a person has an outburst or rage in anger as you describe they may feel better.However those around them are left upsett and confused,shocked and frightened.My husband has been very forgiving and ten years later we have a very good marriage.However outbursts such as you describe could easily have resulted in him leaving me and taking our children with him.

Now I appreciate why.

 

Karen.

Edited October 17, 2010 by Karen A

[baddad]

I don't think that tails is blaming his autism for his anger, and he is actually looking for a way to address the outbursts rather than using autism as an excuse to justify doing nothing about them. To do that, you do need to bear the autism in mind when looking at solutions.

 

Hi tally - Personally i didn't get the impression either that tailks is blaming his autism for his anger, and i'm sorry if either of my posts gave the impression that I did (? )

Tails did ask, however, if this was typical of autism, and I do think there is a very real danger these days of it being suggested that it is. And, by implcation, the next suggestion is often that, if anger and aggression are typical traits of autism then there's little or nothing that can be done for or by autistic people to prevent, overcome or circumnavigate angry outbursts or aggression.

I do agree that you need to bear autism in mind when you look for solutions, but I think you have to bear all relevant factors in mind, just as with a non-autistic person you have to bear all relevant factors in mind when helping them to replace inappropriate, instinctive responses with more considered and appropriate ones. Sometimes, autism may be a factor in an autistic persons aggressive behaviour, but sometimes it may not. Sometimes it could be that autism does create additional 'stresses or problems in understanding that complicate things, but sometimes it may not. Sometimes, lowered expectations regarding behaviours or accommodation of behaviours might be factors, sometimes they may not...

Trying to think of another example - it could (and has) be said that 'poverty' can impact on aggressive behaviour. It's undoubtedly true to a point, but if poverty caused aggressive behaviour then all poor people would be aggressive. Ditto peer pressure, bad parenting etc etc and all of the other things that are often used to excuse inappropriate behaviours. The point is that poverty or any other one of those situations can provide an environment in which aggression can arise, but those are cultural/external factors rather than any personal or medical predisposition. That's not to say, of course, that there can't be a personnal or medical predisposition, but if that is the case then 'autism' isn't it (because if it was all autistic people would be aggressive), and looking to autism in isolation as a 'trigger' and solution overlloks all of those other factors.

 

Hope that clarifies things

 

L&P

 

BD

[baddad]

Hi tails -

just wanted to add to my previous posts... a couple of other factors which may be very relevant:

 

Guessing from your user name you're probably around 20/21 (?). Certainly at this age there's stuff going on generally that makes young men more likely to respond with aggression rather than reason. It's not the huge chemical mix of puberty and teen years but it is the 'backwash' from them - effectively 'roid rage', but from naturally occurring chemical imbalances (all that testosterone and adrenalin) rather than from artificial ones.

 

You said this was a social function. If booze was involved - particularly too much booze - you've got another big red flag waving there.

Some tribe of American Indians (I forget which)worked on the principle that almost anything anyone said or did while under the influence couldn't be held against them. Nice in theory, but certainly not practical in society these days and fraught with problems even then, I'm sure. It does, however, highlight a very real aspect of human nature - we do do stupid things because of alcohol (or other substances), and for the most part late teens to mid twenties is the age group most likely to wake up in the morning wishing they had a time machine so they could go back to the night before and leave early.

 

None of those, of course, excuse aggression or anger, and they may not be relevant to the situation you described anyway, but certainly things that should be in the mix for consideration if you're looking for ways to avoid situations in future.

 

L&P

 

BD

[Karen A]

Hi Tails.

I just thought it worth mentioning that you are free to post on the open Forum as you wish within the rules.You are under no obligation to say anything that could disclose your age,gender or anything else which you are perfectly within your rights to keep private.

 

Karen.

[baddad]

Hi Tails.

I just thought it worth mentioning that you are free to post on the open Forum as you wish within the rules.You are under no obligation to say anything that could disclose your age,gender or anything else which you are perfectly within your rights to keep private.

 

Karen.

 

Hi again Tails1989 -

Of course you are under no obligation whatsoever to disclose your age gender or any other personal information...

If either of my assumptions (your age based on the 1989 in your user name, and your gender based on the implication in your original post 'am I a rude b******d (as opposed to 'rude b***h') I apologise, and don't in any way feel obliged to correct me if it means revealing personal information you do not wish to divulge.

the two possibly issues I highlighted - alcohol and chronological age - could, of course, apply equally to either gender.

 

L&P

 

BD

[tails1989]

Your observations are quite correct...I am male and 21 years old and don't mind divulging this information at all.

 

On the subject of age/alcohol, I quite agree that it can greatly influence how a person might react to a situation, and that the correlation between these factors and possible aggression is widely documented and accepted.

 

To reiterate, the reason that I posted here is not that I claim any link between autism and outbursts of anger, but rather that I wondered whether this might be one of the factors that has a role to play. You name in your post in the form of youth/alcohol two very typical factors that might contribute to overly aggressive behaviour. In my opinion, however, neither of these things contributes to my anger - I have never become violent because of alcohol (I don't really drink that much and at the event in question I was sticking to juice by preference). As for age, I've had these sporadic flare-ups of anger since I was a very small child, but hopefully it might be that as I get older I'll grow out of it somehow...

 

Thus, I made my original post purely to try and make sense of why I sometimes act as I do, some other explanations failing, in my mind, to provide definitive answers. In particular, I think it might be helpful at this point to post a link to the page I came across that finally convinced me to make this post in this particular forum. I accept that anger most likely arises out of a complex cocktail of conflicting factors, and that it would be absurd to say that I get angry solely because I have Aspergers, or that Aspergers is in any way an excuse for inappropriate behaviour, but I felt that I could certainly identify with and observe in my actions many of the 'Reasons for Anger Episodes' listed...I don't want to go on too long, but I felt that numbers 1,2,4,5,9,12,15 and 16 were particularly pertinent.

 

Anyway, as promised, here's the link:

http://www.aspergerfoundation.org.uk/infosheets/a_angermanagement.pdf

 

Best wishes to all,

T

[Karen A]

I think the ideas for treatment are very good.

Karen.

[MelowMeldrew]

Just wondered if anyone has any thoughts/advice on anger. I personally am calm the vast majority of the time, but find that I have very sudden bursts of anger where I become very agressive. Just to recount one story, a short time ago I had been persuaded to go to a social event that I had no desire to go to. I wasn't in the best of moods, and when I was there I got trapped by an annoying person who picked at my lack of social niceties, criticising my posture/lack of eye contact etc etc. These jabs kept winding me up but I made no comment until he claimed that I had got something wrong that I knew was in fact right, at which point I flared up, screaming across the fairly crowded room that he was a 'pretentious c**t' - apparently my brother also had to restrain me from hitting him although I was oblivious to this at the time. Thirty seconds later (probably less) I was completely back to normal, and wished I hadn't created such a stir...

 

Anway, this sort of behaviour is obviously undesirable for several reasons:

 

- I always end up looking like the trouble-maker...no one noticed the other guy's wounding comments, only me screaming insults at him.

 

- I am out of control during this brief period of anger, and am worried about causing physical harm that I do not in any way intend.

 

So, is this sort of behaviour typical in people with autism, or am I just a rude b*****d? What can I do to get my temper under control?

 

 

Wish I knew, my son has done this and there is nothing that seems to be a trigger for it. My son seems totally stressed at everything. We too get no warning at all. Do you take medication ?

[tails1989]

Wish I knew, my son has done this and there is nothing that seems to be a trigger for it. My son seems totally stressed at everything. We too get no warning at all. Do you take medication ?

 

No, I don't take any medication.

 

Best,

T