Have been here lately...

[mousytrap]

Firstly, I was absolutely thrilled to hear about your win, Sally. You must be exhausted after all that... Hopefully things will settle down now and you'll get some well needed rest...

 

Things are coming to some kind of conclusion over here in the not too distant future.

 

My son, "A" if you like, has been taxiing to and from the LEA's preferred EBD school for a few weeks now. Obviously they're all full of how well he's settling in and how happy he is... whereas we're seeing the psychological effects and it looks far from rosy. I've already had to collect him from school once. Had a difficult meeting today with them, given that we're at tribunal in only 2 weeks time. Not exactly the best time to be discussing "how things are going" with the other side. Worried I might have talked about stuff I would have been better being quiet about but find it very difficult when direct questions are put at me. The EP and SALT reports were excellent I think, but the NHS OT one was disappointing.

 

Will I have much more to do? (apart from figuring out what we're going to do with the kids for the day...)

 

It's been quite quiet since I sent all the paperwork off and I'm guessing it's my legal rep's turn to get busy...

 

mousy

[mousytrap]

I meant, of course, "haven't" but isn't it annoying how you always notice these things after the button is pressed?

 

 

PS I meant to also add that son 2, "B" if you like, has also been diagnosed autistic since I was last here, so we may well end up going round the loop again...

Edited November 16, 2011 by mousytrap

[Sally44]

Just two weeks to go!!

 

Have you been in touch with your legal representative?

 

Do you know what line of argument they will be using to prove that the current school is not meeting his needs, or is not suitable, or that he has not made progress??

 

Are the reports you are using the local authority ones?

 

Do you have any independent reports.

 

Do you have your paginated bundle back?

 

It would help you alot to do a contents list so you know exactly where the most important documents are.

 

Also annotate things you are asking for in the Working Document so that you can refer straight to the relevent page of reports to confirm who has said your son has the need, and where there is provision quantified [or point out that the need has been identified, but NO provision quantified].

 

You say the OT report was disappointing. In what way.

 

You only have two weeks left, but you may still have time to find out some information that maybe relevent to your case.

 

Is the EBD school ASD specific? Do any of the teaching staff have an additional qualification for Autism, or any other diagnosis he has [eg. for my son we also asked about Dyslexia]. It turned out both the school and the LA specialist teaching department had no one with an additional qualification for either ASD or Dyslexia/Specific Learning Difficulty.

 

Is he in a suitable peer group. How many children are in his class, how many of them have an ASD [or any of his other diagnoses]. What academic level are they working at, is that comparable with your son? If the other children are EBD, but not ASD, then you can also argue that it is not a suitable social peer group either.

 

Also write up a chronology [dates and instances of things you are concerned about]. So write up when he goes into school, when you had to go and collect him, how is he after school, is he sleeping okay, is his anxiety greater or has it lessened etc. And you need to know the date and time because the LA/school are going to say everything is okay. You need evidence to counter that.

 

If your son has a diagnosis of dyspraxia, or sensory issues then it maybe worth writing to the NHS OT to ask them if they provide sensory integration therapy or direct 1:1 therapy in school for children with his difficulties. NHS OT's do not provide sensory integration therapy because it costs too much. But if he has the diagnosis, then he should get OT input. You need to be aware of what the OT input would be. Typically it would be showing a TA or yourself how to do some things in school or at home. That is not a suitable amount of input, not by a suitable professional. Are they doing any OT work with him in school? If not you need to be arguing that he needs the input in school.

[Sally44]

During the Tribunal you will have regular breaks.

 

Make a note of everything that is being said that you feel is inaccurate or lies etc. When you have a break go through them with your representative.

 

You may need to think up an opening Statement and may need to make up a closing statement on the day. The Panel could ask you questions like "tell me about your son", "what do you think his main needs are", "how has your son been since he started the EBD school" "what are you hoping to achieve by coming to this hearing", etc. So write some paragraphs down on paper [you can read from your notes], then just include the relevent sections.

 

On the day you must remain calm. Don't butt in. Talk to your representative about how you are going to respond to things when they are said eg. will you put your hand up, or pass a note to your solicitor etc. But do be very firm, confident and concise about what you do say.

 

Try not to get bogged down by the finer detail. Talk to your solicitor about the Working Document. You should know by now what has been agreed and what are the final issues you are going to tribual about. If you don't have any evidence for the issues that are not agreed, then you need to know 'where' in the bundle is the evidence. If the evidence is not in the bundle you will find it hard to get provision quantified and specified for those items. That is why I am hoping you do have independent SALT and EP reports.

 

Has an independent EP been to his current school? Have they said it is unsuitable?

[mousytrap]

Sorry for delay. Have had son B off school ill 2 days this week...

 

 

Have you been in touch with your legal representative?

Do you have your paginated bundle back?

 

 

We'll be meeting up with her on Tuesday morning. Had a very stressful (and expensive) afternoon on Friday as the bundle arrived after lunch and there was a mad race to try and get it all copied and sent off next day delivery so she could go through it over the weekend. Don't know how how I managed it - had to dash off out of the shop twice to pick up children - but finally we just made it around 4:40 for the mail pick up. that was 3 copies of about 390 sides. Glad it wasn't 3000!!! You must be broke by now.

 

 

Do you know what line of argument they will be using to prove that the current school is not meeting his needs, or is not suitable, or that he has not made progress??

 

 

We'll be going through that on Tuesday.

 

 

Are the reports you are using the local authority ones?

 

 

LOL... Can't imagine that being very effective.

 

 

Do you have any independent reports.

 

 

EP and SALT reports were independent. They will be essential for the case. OT we had to use NHS so it's very flimsy. That was always going to be the least relevant of the three though.

 

 

It would help you alot to do a contents list so you know exactly where the most important documents are.

Also annotate things you are asking for in the Working Document so that you can refer straight to the relevent page of reports to confirm who has said your son has the need, and where there is provision quantified [or point out that the need has been identified, but NO provision quantified].

 

 

Well, I've got my copies of everything on file with my indexing according to when sent in, but the tribunal service clearly have their way of organising things. The legal rep is doing loads of annotating this weekend so she can find things quickly. I hear she's very good at that. She's also sorting out the working document, but can't see anything getting agreed with the LEA in a week or so.

 

 

You say the OT report was disappointing. In what way.

 

 

The outcome of the handwriting problem was that it's not re pen grip/muscles etc, and because of his PDA/ODD probably not a good idea to go back and change his attitude... The sensory issues were mostly glossed over as mild and executive function and adaptive behaviour (BIG problem areas) didn't come into it. Good job it's on the EP report.

 

 

Is the EBD school ASD specific? Do any of the teaching staff have an additional qualification for Autism, or any other diagnosis he has [eg. for my son we also asked about Dyslexia]. It turned out both the school and the LA specialist teaching department had no one with an additional qualification for either ASD or Dyslexia/Specific Learning Difficulty.

 

 

The independent EP went in recently to ask some in depth questions on matters such as that. Basically he's in an EBD school which is trying to make itself look ASD friendly to ward off tribunal appeals. The head said he had 2 years ASD school experience but not with high achievers. He also reckoned his staff had some kind of training. Will need to get further details from EP if legal rep hasn't already. The two of them already know each other very well.

 

 

Is he in a suitable peer group. How many children are in his class, how many of them have an ASD [or any of his other diagnoses]. What academic level are they working at, is that comparable with your son? If the other children are EBD, but not ASD, then you can also argue that it is not a suitable social peer group either.

 

 

He most certainly isn't. Most of the kids, I believe, are performing at well below his level, probably because of missing so much school in the past. He finds literacy especially patronising. There are a handful of ASD kids there but don't know that any of them are particularly intelligent. This is an area that our EP was going to be sorting out when she went in.

 

 

Also write up a chronology [dates and instances of things you are concerned about]. So write up when he goes into school, when you had to go and collect him, how is he after school, is he sleeping okay, is his anxiety greater or has it lessened etc. And you need to know the date and time because the LA/school are going to say everything is okay. You need evidence to counter that.

 

 

I've been keeping a diary of all that since the beginning of September and those have all been emailed through to the legal rep. There's lots of important stuff in there, especially to refute "he's a happy boy and settling in well at his new school"... The diary covers incidents at school, behaviour when arriving home, psychological wellbeing etc.

 

Will look at other post of yours in the morning...

 

mousy

[Sally44]

Experience of teaching ASD children is not the same as the teachers having studied a further ASD qualification. Additional/in-house training is not compulsory and again is not equivalent to a qualification.

 

I wrote letters/made phone calls and found out that my son's school did not have anyone additionally qualified for an ASD or dyslexia. And neither did my LA Educational Psychology and Specialist Teaching Service.

 

This was useful because at the Tribunal the LA may just say "we will do it/provide it". But if they don't even have those professionals they will have to buy them in. And if they have to buy them in it will be an additional cost. Which will be helpful IF the Tribunal does boil down to costs because you can use the case law of Coventry vs Brown [i think that's the right case, but not 100% sure]. This decision said that any cost for support has to be applied to both sides. So if he needs SALT input the SALT costs have to be applied to both sides. Sometimes that can make the independent school more cost effective.

 

Also you need to argue the need for a multi-disciplinary professional team 'on site', and not an add-on service. When everyone is on sight the team will have regular meetings, will see eachother every day in school, they can tailor his needs individually throughout the day ie. if he is having a particularly bad day the OT [in my son's school], can slot him in immediately for some extra relaxation work, or sensory work. In a LA maintained school it would mean a referal, which could take months, and by then he might be out of school again.

 

If you don't have this type of info already on paper, then remember to raise these questions. The only problem would be if the Inclusion Officer replied that she thought so, but could not be sure.

 

I know it is very stressful. But please try to make some notes yourself. Don't leave it all to the solicitor. If there are particular things that you think are very relevent as to why the school is not suitable, or his needs are not identified, or not being met, then write them down.

 

As i've already said, you will have regular breaks, and you can direct your solicitor immediately to anything you think relevent.

 

Take a notebook with you and make notes. If the LA lie about anything tell your solicitor and again refer him to the proof of that in the bundle.

 

Remember to stay calm. Don't accuse the other side of lying. You have to look like the concerned parent who is trying to get her son's needs met. When you talk say things concisely, and with confidence. Take some tissues incase you do cry.

 

What kind of school are you asking for?

[Sally44]

Do you know the cost of his current Statement funding?

 

At our tribunal the LA lied.

 

Fortunately I had already emailed the SENCO some months previously and she said his current placement cost over £11K. And she also told me what banding he was on.

 

It is also surprising what you can find on your local authority website by doing searches.

 

I managed to find a document that listed all the schools and their banding levels and what funding that related to.

 

So when the LA said his placement cost £2310, I immediately informed the Panel that that was incorrect, which made the LA look very bad because the SENCO had to admit she had emailed me with the funding level, plus I could pass the Judge the document I printed off from the LA website.

 

You can submit documents on the day, if there is anything you find out or receive. The Judge will read it [and you also have to have copies to give to the LA side]. The Judge will ask the LA side if they will allow the document to be admitted. Even if they refuse [as ours did], the Judge can still rule that it is relevent and admit it.

[mousytrap]

What kind of school are you asking for?

 

Independent Aspergers boarding school...

 

mousy

Edited November 21, 2011 by mousytrap

[mousytrap]

Do you know the cost of his current Statement funding?

 

At our tribunal the LA lied.

 

So when the LA said his placement cost £2310, I immediately informed the Panel that that was incorrect, which made the LA look very bad because the SENCO had to admit she had emailed me with the funding level, plus I could pass the Judge the document I printed off from the LA website.

 

Ours obviously pulled the zero-cost-for-schooling-and-zero-cost-for-taxi one... but we can't even come close on the funding side so we're not going there at all.

 

mousy

[Sally44]

Ours obviously pulled the zero-cost-for-schooling-and-zero-cost-for-taxi one... but we can't even come close on the funding side so we're not going there at all.

 

mousy

 

Okay, so you are arguing that the LA school cannot meet need.

 

IF it does run to costs there is a case law called Coventry Vs Brown [i think??]. Ask your solicitor about it.

 

It basically says that if it does go to costs that whatever therapies, professional input your son needs, the costs have to be applied to both sides:

 

LA choice Cost of therapy/professional Parental Choice

 

 

£9000pa OT £9000pa OT £9000pa. OT

£15000 SALT £15000 SALT £15000 SALT

£10000 TA £10000 TA £10,000 TA

£13000 taxi £13000 taxi £13000 taxi

____________ _______________ ______________

TOTAL COST to 'add on' to TOTAL COST of Parental Choice

LA mainstream option [which includes all therapies

________________ ________________ __________________

 

 

 

Sometimes, because the LA have to buy it all in, it can be more expensive than the parental choice where everyone is on site. Especially when the LA costs also have to factor in the travelling expenses for these professionals to travel in, and for joint meetings, IEPs etc. In the Parental choice that is all included in the total fees.

 

But I hope it doesn't go to 'costs'. His needs definately are not mainstream. And I think you said you had already proven that his current school is not ASD specific, and is not the right peer group??

[mousytrap]

Okay, so you are arguing that the LA school cannot meet need.

 

IF it does run to costs there is a case law called Coventry Vs Brown [i think??]. Ask your solicitor about it.

 

It basically says that if it does go to costs that whatever therapies, professional input your son needs, the costs have to be applied to both sides:

 

LA choice Cost of therapy/professional Parental Choice

 

 

£9000pa OT £9000pa OT £9000pa. OT

£15000 SALT £15000 SALT £15000 SALT

£10000 TA £10000 TA £10,000 TA

£13000 taxi £13000 taxi £13000 taxi

____________ _______________ ______________

TOTAL COST to 'add on' to TOTAL COST of Parental Choice

LA mainstream option [which includes all therapies

________________ ________________ __________________

 

 

 

Sometimes, because the LA have to buy it all in, it can be more expensive than the parental choice where everyone is on site. Especially when the LA costs also have to factor in the travelling expenses for these professionals to travel in, and for joint meetings, IEPs etc. In the Parental choice that is all included in the total fees.

 

But I hope it doesn't go to 'costs'. His needs definately are not mainstream. And I think you said you had already proven that his current school is not ASD specific, and is not the right peer group??

 

That doesn't come anywhere close...

 

You're right. He's in an EBD school with a handful of ASD kids, but from what we can make out, they are not high IQ AS... or at least he doesn't think so from the work they've been doing. He's year 5 and he does literacy with the lower year 6 group. Room for moving up this year maybe, but then what would they do next year...?

 

mousy