Autism And Humankind

[Livelife]

I've just started a new book called Sapiens, A Brief History Of Humankind.

 

It's a very interesting read concerning the developmental advancements of our species of Homo sapiens which was one specific group which co-existed with several other groups capable of interbreeding.

We are now the only surviving group all the others having been extinguished or possible interbreeding created what we are today the human.

There is a lot of debate none of which is conclusive as to what happened but it does raise some questions.

The connection with Autism could be linked to the way we were many thousands of years ago specifically the group known as Neanderthal.

The Sapiens us in effect developed the ability to create myth and make things up that were not factual like Beliefs and ideas that could not be seen or heard. That gave them the ability to talk about many things create gossip about other members of the tribe sing songs and artistic talents developed but above all communication developed so many people could interact together which is the society we have today in villages becoming towns towns city's and city's into regions. Regions into separate states or kingdoms then unification into country's then alliances between country's to European unions or Asian market soviet block etc.

Where Autism becomes relevant here is the fact that through the evidence they have uncovered so far Neanderthal never developed this method of communication they basically said what they saw and did not communicate with each other in the form of gossip it was factual and to the point.

They did not live in large groups because of the lack of communication meant they couldn't define who to trust because no communication took place only basic needs were communicated.

Little or no social interaction so while they stayed in their small groups spread out Sapians us grew into larger groups and competition for resources were fierce and because Sapiens could talk and communicate beyond basic commands they could talk and decide to attack and destroy Neanderthal by choice to take their lands and supplies.

Neanderthal without communication carried on living as they had for hundreds of thousands of years without knowing they were being targeted by another group because even if attacked had no way of planning or devising a way to survive because they could not speak in the same way as the other groups.

Some say that autism is somehow linked to this Neanderthal brain and for whatever reason some of us have traits of this long lost race of people, how and why I do not know neither do I think does the writer at least not yet but I haven't finished the book so I do not know what else will be devolved as it progresses.

I've searched this on the Internet and there are references to this theory but at the moment I don't know enough to state a personal opinion as I haven't heard of this before and want to know a lot more before making an opinion on their theory's.

I would be interested in knowing if anybody else has heard of this and if so whether you believe there is any possibility it could actually be correct.

[Mihaela]

Yes I have, and I find it very intriguing, and have my own theories about it too. I have to go out soon, but I'll have more say on this later.

[Mihaela]

I'm back now, and have more time

 

I find the Neanderthal theory very convincing for several reasons apart from those that you give. It's now been established that Neanderthals contributed 2-4% of the non-African genome, and a big survey in the USA shows that the incidence of autism in Afro-Americans is only 1/6 of that in non-Africans. I suspect that Neanderthal genes would most likely account for the much higher incidence of autism in non-Africans.

 

The adult human tradition of drinking the milk of other mammals is also linked to this, and our lactose enzymes would have evolved in parallel with cattle domestication. (The most adapted people are of European and especially Scandinavian descent). Lactose intolerance, and other digestive disorders are disproportionately common in people with autism. I was allergic to milk and cream as a child, and suffered bad car-sickness. (This has never really affected me since I became virtually vegan at around 21 - for ethical reasons).

Neanderthals are the prime candidate for original animal domestication, and autistic people tend to show a preference for animals over people - and many claim to be able to sense the feelings of animals.

 

Other factors relate to the Neanderthal theory of autism such as:

Preference for cold weather

Seasonal affective disorder

Picking at skin

Seasonal breeding

Slower maturation

Emotional immaturity

Collecting of similar things

ADHD traits

Unusual eating patterns

Urges to climb and jump over things

Fascination with slow-flowing water

Faceblindness

Language difficulties

Eye contact

Poor executive functioning

Difficulties with verbal instructions

High sensory processing sensitivities (needed for hunting prey)

Solitude

Unusual sexual preferences

Asexuality

All these (and more) can be very convincingly accounted for by this theory.

 

According to Prof David Reich in a recent paper published in Nature, interbreeding with Neanderthals has passed on genes that influence disease in us today (such as chronic depression, Crohn's and type 2 diabetes) as well as evolutionary adaptive advantages. "It's tempting to think that Neanderthals were already adapted to the non-African environment and provided this genetic benefit to (modern) humans". In the case of Crohn's, Neanderthals passed on different markers that increase and decrease the risk of disease. Could this Neanderthal inheritance account for the disproportionate levels of depression and digestive disorders in people with autism?

[MiddleEarthNet]

Interesting read. I have not read the book you referenced. However I have always believed that neanderthals weren't wiped out by the others humans at the time (I would need to check which ones) and that the different species will have mixed and evolved together into homo sapiens.

Genetics (both in relation to autism and not) has always facinated me. More specifically when you get what appears to be a genetic abnormality (I'm not refering to autism in this instance).

 

I have on a number of occasions seen people with a very pronouced brow and wondered whether that is a neanderthal gene influence.

[Mr Salvador]

I think there at some point the definition of homo sapien was either lost or trandformed. clearly if there were interbreedable species around at the time then interbreeding there took place yes?

 

therefore the mixed up newe humans of today will be a randomised mix of all the triats of all the species, due to the mechanism of meiosis, and mendelian genetics.

 

thereforeit is possible for traits of those los to the past to be carried on and either pop their head up or not

 

I too have noticed those with pronounced brows, even a baby with pronounced mono-brow. im sure other links are present, such as why are there more ginger people from ancient celtic roots, and why sickle cell only affects afro-carribeans

 

I would be very interested to learn more about this theory

 

im sure they are not all negative effects though, im sure at one point they had purpose and am convinced that we are still made this way for a reason

 

I believe that perhaps what and who are is part of natures experiement that got called 'survival of the fittessed'. maybe making up stories and idle chit chat isn't a good thing in regards to evolution? and maybe it is a failed attempt at higher levels of thought?! I for one understand that my brain does things many others cant, I just have trouble explaining it to everyone else... perhaps one day it will be seen as 'gifted' and not just disabled

[Livelife]

I'm back now, and have more time

 

I find the Neanderthal theory very convincing for several reasons apart from those that you give. It's now been established that Neanderthals contributed 2-4% of the non-African genome, and a big survey in the USA shows that the incidence of autism in Afro-Americans is only 1/6 of that in non-Africans. I suspect that Neanderthal genes would most likely account for the much higher incidence of autism in non-Africans.

 

The adult human tradition of drinking the milk of other mammals is also linked to this, and our lactose enzymes would have evolved in parallel with cattle domestication. (The most adapted people are of European and especially Scandinavian descent). Lactose intolerance, and other digestive disorders are disproportionately common in people with autism. I was allergic to milk and cream as a child, and suffered bad car-sickness. (This has never really affected me since I became virtually vegan at around 21 - for ethical reasons).

Neanderthals are the prime candidate for original animal domestication, and autistic people tend to show a preference for animals over people - and many claim to be able to sense the feelings of animals.

 

Other factors relate to the Neanderthal theory of autism such as:

Preference for cold weather

Seasonal affective disorder

Picking at skin

Seasonal breeding

Slower maturation

Emotional immaturity

Collecting of similar things

ADHD traits

Unusual eating patterns

Urges to climb and jump over things

Fascination with slow-flowing water

Faceblindness

Language difficulties

Eye contact

Poor executive functioning

Difficulties with verbal instructions

High sensory processing sensitivities (needed for hunting prey)

Solitude

Unusual sexual preferences

Asexuality

All these (and more) can be very convincingly accounted for by this theory.

 

According to Prof David Reich in a recent paper published in Nature, interbreeding with Neanderthals has passed on genes that influence disease in us today (such as chronic depression, Crohn's and type 2 diabetes) as well as evolutionary adaptive advantages. "It's tempting to think that Neanderthals were already adapted to the non-African environment and provided this genetic benefit to (modern) humans". In the case of Crohn's, Neanderthals passed on different markers that increase and decrease the risk of disease. Could this Neanderthal inheritance account for the disproportionate levels of depression and digestive disorders in people with autism?

 

There is a lot of what you have said in the book i am currently reading and the list of traits would fit into the understanding of Neanderthal and people on the Autistic spectrum.

I haven't got the understanding you have shown on this topic but from what I've read and my current understanding on the brief time I've been looking into this I can see and agree with your views.

On the point of whether Neanderthal inheritance can account for the levels of depression and digestive disorders what we in people with autism I would concur that it is indeed a strong possibility.

The digestive disorders could be linked to the fact that by nature we are hunter gatherers not farmers and the very fact that we cultivate wheat potatoes rice as a stable diet has helped create the situation a lot of people are in today.

Neanderthal were naturally hunter gatherers but over time Sapians as we know became the dominant group of our species and if my understanding is correct it was them that began the agricultural revolution and if Sapians and Neanderthal actually bred together then any this could be within us but how we are today is not an actual progression of evolutionary means in our natural state of being.

Also depression is worse when somebody is not able to do what feels right or what needs to be done, should we have this deep Neanderthal design within some humans but more Sapien design in others then it would be natural and logical to assume that those more closely linked to Neanderthal would be more depressed than Sapiens.

I feel a little unsure about my facts here but it is a fascinating subject that I hope to learn a lot more about.

[Livelife]

Interesting read. I have not read the book you referenced. However I have always believed that neanderthals weren't wiped out by the others humans at the time (I would need to check which ones) and that the different species will have mixed and evolved together into homo sapiens.

Genetics (both in relation to autism and not) has always facinated me. More specifically when you get what appears to be a genetic abnormality (I'm not refering to autism in this instance).

 

I have on a number of occasions seen people with a very pronouced brow and wondered whether that is a neanderthal gene influence.

There are two distinct opinions on this, the one side is that Neanderthal was wiped out by Sapiens in conflict or that Sapiens were not what we are today but a different group within our species and breeding with Neanderthal created a new grouping which was us.

There is a lot of debate as to which theory is correct but the one certainty is that nobody is ever going to know for sure which ideological principle is actually correct, as most things it's going to be a personal opinion as to which theory if any that you subscribe to.

[Livelife]

I think there at some point the definition of homo sapien was either lost or trandformed. clearly if there were interbreedable species around at the time then interbreeding there took place yes?

 

therefore the mixed up newe humans of today will be a randomised mix of all the triats of all the species, due to the mechanism of meiosis, and mendelian genetics.

 

thereforeit is possible for traits of those los to the past to be carried on and either pop their head up or not

 

I too have noticed those with pronounced brows, even a baby with pronounced mono-brow. im sure other links are present, such as why are there more ginger people from ancient celtic roots, and why sickle cell only affects afro-carribeans

 

I would be very interested to learn more about this theory

 

im sure they are not all negative effects though, im sure at one point they had purpose and am convinced that we are still made this way for a reason

 

I believe that perhaps what and who are is part of natures experiement that got called 'survival of the fittessed'. maybe making up stories and idle chit chat isn't a good thing in regards to evolution? and maybe it is a failed attempt at higher levels of thought?! I for one understand that my brain does things many others cant, I just have trouble explaining it to everyone else... perhaps one day it will be seen as 'gifted' and not just disabled

The theory is that it was Sapiens ability to talk beyond basic fact that gave it its superiority, they began to create myths and stories that were not based on solid fact alone in other words imagination.

When they came into conflict with Neanderthal if that theory is correct they were able to communicate and create ideals from imagination in order to defeat the Neanderthal race.

Should within a conflict the Neanderthal had the supplier strength and build it would be logical to assume they would have been the dominant race because of their physical advantage. Their problem was that they would have continued with their lives as they always had done if they fought with Sapiens it would have been when they came into contact with them, they couldn't communicate in a way that would enable them to concoct plans to trap trick or out think their apponent.

Because Sapiens could conduct meaningless talk they could create what basic logic couldn't like new ways to kill or trick others thinking outside the box that's what my book said about their thinking.

The Neanderthal would not have known they were being exterminated if that was what happened where as the Sapiens would be planning their demise it was that limited thinking that was the reason for their eventual extinction.

[Livelife]

I forgot to mention that I agree with your sentiment about it being a failed attempt at a higher level of thought as how we are today is the result of the thought and thinking process of our race.

Looking at the world it's clear to see the failure in everything we have attempted to achieve so far we have successfully achieved death and destruction on a terrible scale but compassion and care appears limited to individual people, something has definitely gone wrong.

[Mr Salvador]

... should we have this deep Neanderthal design within some humans but more Sapien design in others then it would be natural and logical to assume that those more closely linked to Neanderthal would be more depressed than Sapiens.

 

I think from this it is only logical to assume that it may have a contributing factor to depression, not necessilarily 'would be' more depressed than others.

 

having studied genetics at uni I have learnt that genetic inheritance is a matter of chance, reference heterozygous alleles in genetic expression. I have brown hair with brown eyes and had a baby with a girl who had brown hair blue eyes. our daughter has blonde hair and blue eyes. so therefore I can assume that if she is mine which I hope sincerely that she is, that I myself have heterozygous alleles for both hair and eyes, as my dominant brown genes show through, I also carry resessive alleles which I passed onto my daughter. this is mendeleian genetics. Gregor Mendel was a monk who discovered DNA and genetic inheritance.

 

Therefore going by his studies I say it is reasonable to assume that both neandethal and sapien genes are mixed up in the modern genome, however in different situations different gene expressions are either switched on orswitched off due to the mixing of genetic material during fertilisation of the egg and the randon selction of genes during this meiotic process.

 

As with my daughter sometimes recessive alleles are passed on without traits being displaid. sometimes both partners pass on recessive alleles are exhibited and unfortunately sometimes that means the parts of us which made us wired up differently or autistic whichever you prefer. its interesting but not neceessilarily important where they came from, if you are searching for a cure then switching on or off of genes may be a more likely source to find answers.

 

However, as a solution I suggest that understanding the source of the genetic variation can only positively be used for learning how this could be better for us and more useful for society sp that we cann sell the benefits to them so they can be motivated to understans us better.

 

I have read something, I cant remember where about a national or worwide survey im not sure im going to google in a min... about gene histology concerning things like Viking genes, and the spread of the rhesus gene and another more recent one linking gene patterns from people from 'isolated gene pools'. Its like after mapping the genome they are now mapping the histology of certain genes that they have learn to find. people in the north of England have been seen to contain this Viking gene in them more so than people of the south of England and it is suggested that this is why so many northerners especially around York where I am now, are so tall!

 

im gonna go google now, theres a lot being discovered and eperhaos this neaderthal study will pop up markers which can easily be tested for so it can be caught earlier.

 

im not sure if I can spot other ASD's, but I do notice that children rumoured to have 'learning difficulties' seem to to gravitate towards me and ask many questions which I answer logically. I spot how they trying to soak up knowledge lieka sponge and I love to feed them! their parents say they don't usually talk to people that much but maybe somehow they know too?

 

off too google now back later!

[Mr Salvador]

Should within a conflict the Neanderthal had the supplier strength and build it would be logical to assume they would have been the dominant race because of their physical advantage. Their problem was that they would have continued with their lives as they always had done if they fought with Sapiens it would have been when they came into contact with them, they couldn't communicate in a way that would enable them to concoct plans to trap trick or out think their apponent.

Because Sapiens could conduct meaningless talk they could create what basic logic couldn't like new ways to kill or trick others thinking outside the box that's what my book said about their thinking.

The Neanderthal would not have known they were being exterminated if that was what happened where as the Sapiens would be planning their demise it was that limited thinking that was the reason for their eventual extinction.

 

im sorry, I was off to google but I noticed id missed this one.

 

I don't agree with your logic here. you've nearly got there saying this it would be logical to assume they would have been the dominant race because of their physical advantage.

 

but therefore the logic dictates that that either neaderthal was not the dominant race, or that the sapiens found another way to gain dominance over neaderthal....presumeably where you touched on Because Sapiens could conduct meaningless talk they could create what basic logic couldn't like new ways to kill or trick others

 

are these 'tricks' not the predudce we fall foul to everyday (almost)??

 

and just because they have become more prevalent doesn't mean they are better. me personally, I believe that when the global heat cycle swings back and the next ice age comes that many of the weak normski's will be wiped out and that Noah's modern day counterparts will have many logical solutions to extreme events and have our moment to shine and pass on our logical intellect and the 'new order' will be full of Aspies and will become start trek type society of the futre and work together for a common goal.

 

have faith, neandethals were surviors. so are we

[Mr Salvador]

ok guys look at this one then... these guys have been isolated and are 'truly distinct' are any of these guys austistic??

 

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/12/141204074144.htm

[Mr Salvador]

and this one from ancient mitochondrial DNA, apparently its got traces of inheritance going back thousands of years! when they find genetic markers for autism they can cross reference genomics like this and find out if your theories are correct or not!

 

"The type of DNA extracted and analysed in this kind of study is that stored in the cell's mitochondria. Mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) is passed down the maternal line, providing a record of inheritance which goes back thousands of years. The scientists look for genetic signatures which enable them to classify the DNA into different lineages and then use a 'molecular clock' to date when these lineages moved into different parts of the world."

http://www.leeds.ac.uk/news/article/1475/genetic_study_uncovers_new_path_to_polynesia (Leeds uni, 2011)

[Mr Salvador]

ok im on the case y'all, this is the news about mapping autistic genes

 

"When we looked at genes associated with nervous-system function we found significantly more genes were expressed at higher or lower levels in the children diagnosed with autism than we did in their siblings unaffected by the disorder," said Geschwind.

 

http://newsroom.ucla.edu/releases/ucla-study-uncovers-new-tools-235479 (2012)

 

 

so all we need now is a friendly Laboratory to put this all together for us and see if they can use these markers to map the histology of autistic gene expression across different isolated gene lineages and find out if this Neanderthal theory is correct.

 

im sure you can do your own googling but there should be, I my mind anyway, a way of testing people for these genes without digging out our brain matter! If they can do the test with mitochondrial DNA and the 'providing a record of inheritance which goes back thousands of years' and look for the markers associated with autism they could both test for it sooner, and answer your question about Neanderthal theory, and theorise as to its relevance and potential prevelance for the future

 

ok that's my geek out done for now, hope you enjoyed it as I did. theoretical science is one the things I like a lot. hope you do too,

[Mr Salvador]

ok ive stuck my neck out and emailed someone from UCLA regarding their austitic studies cited above, asking if they were any closer to finding genetic markers associated with austism for testing purposes, I kinda didn't like the idea that they had to remove brain tissue to do that test

 

I askedif they were aware of all this and suggested as a topic for discussion for research. im sure that these can be put together to get the answers this book has thrown up

 

maybe im delusional im not sure but it seems to make sense to me so I asked anyway. someone on here said to me 'nothing ventured nothing gained'

 

I love to geek out about the science people don't yet understand and put forward my two-penneth. obviously I only made it to degree level, scoring lowly due to final exams being with pen and paper..oops if I wasn't so determined to be 'normal' and just let them do the dyslexia test I could have got the laptop to do final exams but hey...seems NT's only listen to pieces of paper..don't get me started on that

 

but I put the questions to them never the less. probably not in NT language though oops. if you interested for the amsument il copy and paste here?

[Livelife]

im sorry, I was off to google but I noticed id missed this one.

 

I don't agree with your logic here. you've nearly got there saying this it would be logical to assume they would have been the dominant race because of their physical advantage.

 

but therefore the logic dictates that that either neaderthal was not the dominant race, or that the sapiens found another way to gain dominance over neaderthal....presumeably where you touched on Because Sapiens could conduct meaningless talk they could create what basic logic couldn't like new ways to kill or trick others

 

are these 'tricks' not the predudce we fall foul to everyday (almost)??

 

and just because they have become more prevalent doesn't mean they are better. me personally, I believe that when the global heat cycle swings back and the next ice age comes that many of the weak normski's will be wiped out and that Noah's modern day counterparts will have many logical solutions to extreme events and have our moment to shine and pass on our logical intellect and the 'new order' will be full of Aspies and will become start trek type society of the futre and work together for a common goal.

 

have faith, neandethals were surviors. so are we

I see what your saying there and how what I said was contradictory to the statement I made.

I've read your posts and a lot of what your saying makes sense the bits of it that I can understand anyway.

This while being a fascinating subject it's new and I'm still struggling a little to completely understand the full meaning of your posts as I've no knowledge of genes and DNA and how it resides within people and how it appears and disappears through the generations.

If there is any more information that's worth mentioning I will post it here and review your posts in segments to try to get a better understanding of what you have said.

Your clearly knowledgeable on the subject and look forward to any other posts you feel are relevant to the topic.

[Mr Salvador]

im sorry if I came accross strong, my gf says im very opinionated sometimes and don't always make my point in a compassionate manner. I guess you probably understand I didn't mean to be offesnsive. this Asperger is all new to me and I really enjoyed having an intelligent conversation with you guys. I don't usually get to let it all out like that. most people say 'say alright smarty pants' or some other expletive and I have to stifle my thoughts and usually end up starring elsewhere or walking off.

 

I love to get deep into science chat and I guess ive not had that before with others who actually know what they're talking about. thanks guys

(wow all the smileys on here are proper confusing! like aspies can work all them out?! just want a simple smile that's all I wanted)

 

im sorry if some of it was bit out there, my brain pieces things together to make solutions and what you were saying about interbreedable species got me switched on. things in my mind have to be black or white so let me try to break it down a bit.

 

if there were 'species 'capable' of interbreeding, then knowing that they could interbreed would therefore indicate that they infact did'

 

knowing that there was mixing going on amougnst 6 or more species would mean many different 'flavours' of these mixes... presumeabley therefore modern humans are the almost settled and almost homogenized mix of these 'flavours', however even today there are clearly distinctly different phenotypes of humans on this planet, so im not even sure that homo sapien is enough. eg. homo sapien Europa, or homo sapien Africana

 

to say that that sapiens wiped out Neanderthal would be an inaccuracy because I would say at least, that if and when we work out this gene history print we will find that we have each certain percentages of expression of certain genes. say mr. McGregor in the highlands, may be tall because of expression of his Viking roots, he may have ginger hair from his celtic genes being switched on, and he may or may not have the Neanderthal parts of his DNA switched on or off giving him or not giving him autism.

 

I hope im not making this more confusing

 

genotype is the genes that you have for say black hair BB, brown hair may be Bb and blonde/ginger would be gg capital designate the 'allele' is dominant. resessive traits are both of the lower case bb, denoting the 'phenotype' as blonde or ginger, there is much less percentage chances of these coming around due to the dominat gene expression of heterozygotes Bb, where hetero means different, ie there is one big B and one little b. this is where genes are passed on but not 'expressed'.

 

phenotype is 'how' the gene is expressed physically, this means that genotype bb for eye colour is usually blue or green and dominant gene BB is brown, when the phenotype is heterozygous this is where different shades of eye colour come in between.

 

it is my undersatnading that this is why it is now described as 'austistic spectrum' as it would seem, that there are many shades of austism and 'austistic phenotype expression'. this is why we have some similar traits but some different. depending on which genes you got got which parent 'switched on'

 

someone may get the autistic genes and not pass them on (perhaps only women im not sure as they often display more social skills?), im not certain of this, if it were a resessive trait then it could certainly be passed on with little or not traits being expressed.

 

wow what a waste, updated my gf on what we're talking about and she yawned...glad you guys are listening

 

so anyway, most of what im saying is theoretical as you say the science around autism is slow and they could use people like us to help push research. that's why I stuck my neck out and emailed UCLA for information. I was in my hole again and needed to make use of the thoughts buzzing in my head

 

I know my mind could be useful on that level, unfortunately my dyslexia has stopped me from proving what I know and can do on paper

 

I will info-dump on this subject next time my head is in that space

 

if you have questions I love to answer the science questions on quiz shows, I guess you guys will have excellently deep questions? hope so

[Mihaela]

I've been following this thread with great interest. When I eventually realised that I was on the autistic spectrum it was due to reading about 'female-type' Asperger's (FTAS), something that went unrecognised until very recently. This made me wonder why this odd gender distinction existed in the first place, so I began to study the genetics of autism and came across the Neanderthal theory on the way.

However, another dimension soon became evident: the high incidence of gender dysphoria and gender fluidity among Aspies - seemingly much higher than in the NT population. Related to this is the commonly-listed 'androgynous' trait of FTAS, and having met and been in touch with quite a number of female Aspies of this type, virtually all of them have this androgynous trait. Many males too have this trait. Another odd factor is that unusual sexual orientations and asexuality are disproportionately common among Aspies, 'object sexuality' being very strongly linked to autism.

It's now well-established that gender dysphoria in early childhood is a neurological condition - as is autism - but it is not inherited. It is genetically programmed before birth, and results from abnormal hormone releases during pregnancy at a crucial time in foetal development - which may in turn be triggered by drugs - notoriously diethylstilbesterol (now banned for it often caused genital defects). Autism is often inherited, but can also be caused by hormone imbalances during pregnancy.

 

Significantly, all this would seem to indicate that having autistic genes occasionally predisposes a developing foetus to gender dysphoria in early childhood. It also suggests that the affected genes are in the same group of genes that are linked to autism. Another odd correlation exists between so-called 'high functioning' autism and 'giftedness' in children. Giftedness shares elements in common with savantism, another condition but which mainly associated with 'low functioning' autism.

Much more research is needed in this area, but it's clear to me that there are strong genetic links here and that autistic neuro-atypicality extends into other atypical areas too.

[Mr Salvador]

Very interesting

 

Was it rain man who had the savant who cracked the govt cryptex?

 

If so how is it linked to low functioning autism?

[Livelife]

im sorry if I came accross strong, my gf says im very opinionated sometimes and don't always make my point in a compassionate manner. I guess you probably understand I didn't mean to be offesnsive. this Asperger is all new to me and I really enjoyed having an intelligent conversation with you guys. I don't usually get to let it all out like that. most people say 'say alright smarty pants' or some other expletive and I have to stifle my thoughts and usually end up starring elsewhere or walking off.

 

I love to get deep into science chat and I guess ive not had that before with others who actually know what they're talking about. thanks guys

(wow all the smileys on here are proper confusing! like aspies can work all them out?! just want a simple smile that's all I wanted)

 

im sorry if some of it was bit out there, my brain pieces things together to make solutions and what you were saying about interbreedable species got me switched on. things in my mind have to be black or white so let me try to break it down a bit.

 

if there were 'species 'capable' of interbreeding, then knowing that they could interbreed would therefore indicate that they infact did'

 

knowing that there was mixing going on amougnst 6 or more species would mean many different 'flavours' of these mixes... presumeabley therefore modern humans are the almost settled and almost homogenized mix of these 'flavours', however even today there are clearly distinctly different phenotypes of humans on this planet, so im not even sure that homo sapien is enough. eg. homo sapien Europa, or homo sapien Africana

 

to say that that sapiens wiped out Neanderthal would be an inaccuracy because I would say at least, that if and when we work out this gene history print we will find that we have each certain percentages of expression of certain genes. say mr. McGregor in the highlands, may be tall because of expression of his Viking roots, he may have ginger hair from his celtic genes being switched on, and he may or may not have the Neanderthal parts of his DNA switched on or off giving him or not giving him autism.

 

I hope im not making this more confusing

 

genotype is the genes that you have for say black hair BB, brown hair may be Bb and blonde/ginger would be gg capital designate the 'allele' is dominant. resessive traits are both of the lower case bb, denoting the 'phenotype' as blonde or ginger, there is much less percentage chances of these coming around due to the dominat gene expression of heterozygotes Bb, where hetero means different, ie there is one big B and one little b. this is where genes are passed on but not 'expressed'.

 

phenotype is 'how' the gene is expressed physically, this means that genotype bb for eye colour is usually blue or green and dominant gene BB is brown, when the phenotype is heterozygous this is where different shades of eye colour come in between.

 

it is my undersatnading that this is why it is now described as 'austistic spectrum' as it would seem, that there are many shades of austism and 'austistic phenotype expression'. this is why we have some similar traits but some different. depending on which genes you got got which parent 'switched on'

 

someone may get the autistic genes and not pass them on (perhaps only women im not sure as they often display more social skills?), im not certain of this, if it were a resessive trait then it could certainly be passed on with little or not traits being expressed.

 

wow what a waste, updated my gf on what we're talking about and she yawned...glad you guys are listening

 

so anyway, most of what im saying is theoretical as you say the science around autism is slow and they could use people like us to help push research. that's why I stuck my neck out and emailed UCLA for information. I was in my hole again and needed to make use of the thoughts buzzing in my head

 

I know my mind could be useful on that level, unfortunately my dyslexia has stopped me from proving what I know and can do on paper

 

I will info-dump on this subject next time my head is in that space

 

if you have questions I love to answer the science questions on quiz shows, I guess you guys will have excellently deep questions? hope so

 

Your not going to be judged or face criticism here everybody understands personally I find your posts informative.

[Livelife]

I've been following this thread with great interest. When I eventually realised that I was on the autistic spectrum it was due to reading about 'female-type' Asperger's (FTAS), something that went unrecognised until very recently. This made me wonder why this odd gender distinction existed in the first place, so I began to study the genetics of autism and came across the Neanderthal theory on the way.

However, another dimension soon became evident: the high incidence of gender dysphoria and gender fluidity among Aspies - seemingly much higher than in the NT population. Related to this is the commonly-listed 'androgynous' trait of FTAS, and having met and been in touch with quite a number of female Aspies of this type, virtually all of them have this androgynous trait. Many males too have this trait. Another odd factor is that unusual sexual orientations and asexuality are disproportionately common among Aspies, 'object sexuality' being very strongly linked to autism.

It's now well-established that gender dysphoria in early childhood is a neurological condition - as is autism - but it is not inherited. It is genetically programmed before birth, and results from abnormal hormone releases during pregnancy at a crucial time in foetal development - which may in turn be triggered by drugs - notoriously diethylstilbesterol (now banned for it often caused genital defects). Autism is often inherited, but can also be caused by hormone imbalances during pregnancy.

 

Significantly, all this would seem to indicate that having autistic genes occasionally predisposes a developing foetus to gender dysphoria in early childhood. It also suggests that the affected genes are in the same group of genes that are linked to autism. Another odd correlation exists between so-called 'high functioning' autism and 'giftedness' in children. Giftedness shares elements in common with savantism, another condition but which mainly associated with 'low functioning' autism.

Much more research is needed in this area, but it's clear to me that there are strong genetic links here and that autistic neuro-atypicality extends into other atypical areas too.

 

 

A very informative post, though have to admit I am way behind others here in understanding of this topic but I'm learning reading through them it's all very interesting.

[Mihaela]

Yes, it was Rainman, Mr Salvador. Savantism isn't confined to 'LF' autism but very rarely occurs with 'HF' autism.
It can be caused at any stage in life due to brain trauma. About 10% of people with autism have some savant skills (including me), and about 50% of savants are autistic. It's found in people with non-autistic learning difficulties or brain injury much less than in autistic people (only about 1%). I have traces of it for I have a prodigious memory for facts - noticed by others ever since my childhood. Savantism always involves such a memory, but it is very narrow. Mine is very wide, and not as spectacular. The very obscure skill of calendar calculating seems to be restricted to savants

[Mr Salvador]

wow I need to read more about this now.

 

I was always 'different' but feel that my symptoms have got worse following a number of serious head traumas

 

my memory is pictoral and remember most of what I see if it is deemed relevant

 

however head injuries and some previous self harm has also affected memory as well as anxiety. as a child I used to bang my head into the wall to try and kill brain cells so that everyone else didn't hate me for being so smart

 

ive never really associated with savantism but after you wrote it, it reminded me of a few times people said that to me as a child and never knew what they meant

 

I do have a particular skill for computers and fixing broken technology, and think that cryptology is fun

 

I think its interesting reading about other parts of the spectrum. usually it just reassures me that im on the right track with my self diagnosis. my memory usually is based around science and engineering

 

so you're in the top 10%, interesting

 

I will be very interested to find out clear details when I get my diagnosis. I am also interested to meet people involved in research into this to see if I can be of use

 

I am also interested more about your savant skills

[MiddleEarthNet]

I've reading all the posts on here about ASDs and no clear gender. I didn't know how closely that was associated with autism. But I can really relate to what is written.

 

I was born female but right from the start have always described myself as a tomboy. Its not that I see myself as male, because I don't, but I don't see myself as female either. But it would be fair to say, I would have preferred to have been born male. I don't do girly - I don't wear makeup, dresses, skirts, highheels etc and I certainly don't do pink. I buy boys clothes and shoes and always dress like a boy. I have long hair, but that's more because I don't like the hairdressers, than any style reason. My interests have always been more in common with boys, even down to when I am at martial arts, I frequently get told to stop sparring like the men. For a female, my voice is quite deep, but in reality it is somewhere between a male and female voice - too deep for one, not deep enough for the other.

But at the same time, there are less women in martial arts, so there are less women competing for the top spots so that increases my chance of being in one of them (not that it will ever happen because of stupid AS).

 

I have savant traits. I don't know how much someone needs to be classed as a savant. I have a photographic memory for numbers and patterns and I can take any 3D object and rotate it around and open it out in my head. My photographic memory creeps NT people out. But I have Asperger's so I'm not low functioning.

[Mihaela]

Yes, I'm sure you're on the right track, Mr Salvador. "I do have a particular skill for computers and fixing broken technology, and think that cryptology is fun" I was a computerphobe until 2006, but I do have a skill for obscure radio communications equipment. I could memorise complex circuitry even as a child - and maps too. I'd laboriously reconstruct the circuits of complex equipment by tracing every single connection and component, then I'd analyse it and work out what it did and how it worked. At 17 I had a friend who built her own radio transmitters, and at 14 became one of the then very few female radio amateurs. She was androgynous, had no time for peer groups and was without doubt an undiagnosed aspie. As for cryptography. I've spent many happy hours playing with it! I've cracked the code of a highly complex encrypted book written in French in 1886, and so far I'm the only layperson who has done it. It's based on rimes, squares and triangular numbers as well as very clever puns and something known as the Aquarian cabala. I've yet to be publish my findings.

My savant skills mainly revolve around my memory and list-making abilities. I can reel off long lists of anything that may interest me - covering a very wide range of topics, some of them obscure and highly specialised. My interest in number theory and patterns is equalled in my interest in words, language, languages, grammatical rules, etymology, etc. By the way, I've just scratched the surface...

MiddleEarth - Your story is so very, very familiar to me. I've known many girls and women, who I now suspect were on the spectrum, and just about every one of them had the androgynous trait. Since I was diagnosed I've met a few through autism groups, and they too have that trait. Out of six, three of them do martial arts, and you're another! Like you I have little interest in my appearance, make-up etc. and I've had some interests which tend to be seen as of a male type - weird stuff like valve radio technology, espionage communication networks, Cold War planning, the rare earth elements, cryptography, number theory, science in general, etc. I'm attracted to complexity whether in science, art, languages, maps, etc.

I have savant traits. I don't know how much someone needs to be classed as a savant.

Neither of us are savants, for that requires islands of extraordinary but very narrow ability which contrast with a general lack of overall ability, but we seem to be on the way there!

I have a photographic memory for numbers and patterns and I can take any 3D object and rotate it around and open it out in my head. My photographic memory creeps NT people out. But I have Asperger's so I'm not low functioning.

Unlike you I don't have a very good spatial ability, and have to really concentrate when it comes to mirror images and rotations. My memory for facts (and sometimes numbers) creeps people out. So does my logic, and some don't like it. I've heard professional talk of low-functioning Asperger's. These labels can get so confusing when even the experts can't agree

[Mr Salvador]

Wow that bit about seeing the 3d objects in your mind is me too. That's why I was good at building those filtration machines in my last job.

 

Everyone was freeked out how quickly I picked it up but once the schematics were in my head I could see them and twist them all around and store part numbers. I was doing great at that part but the others said i made them look bad Nd obviously lost that job.

 

That's how i fix things. I look at it and leave it and fix it in my mind first

 

I love fixing things

[MiddleEarthNet]

Its not just the martial arts for me, I work in engineering as a draughtsman. I was six, when I discovered I had an ability with technical drawing and 3D objects (not to be confused with artistic skill - I am awful at creative art). Some workmen were in the house and one of them left their plans on the floor, which I found. I had never seen a technical drawing before and freaked the guy out when I proceeded to explain why their design wouldn't work because stuff didn't line up. They didn't believe me. Two days they found out I was correct . At work people think I must recite the numbers to myself constantly. But I don't. I can remember thousands of wire idents from huge electrical systems and know instantly when one of them has been duplicated and then go back to exactly where both of the wires are to prove that it has been duplicated.

 

Mihaela, I like maps too. I've never heard of low functioning Asperger's but I suspect that might be where I am. If I am functioning I am ok, but when I am not functioning, my ability drops to the level of someone who is severely autistic.

 

My mum always shouts at me for wearing boys clothes. She hates it. She says it makes me look queer but I don't see the problem. I prefer to look and feel of boys clothes. She has said several times that she wanted me to be girly so she could dress me in dresses and go shopping with me.

 

Mr Salvador, I love taking things to pieces, changing it and putting it back together.

[Livelife]

The exceptional skills are amazing how you are all able to do complex tasks in your minds store and calculate permutations must enrich your lives greatly.

For all the issues autism can create there are so many benefits I struggle to comprehend the reasoning of some NTs in their attitude the benefits of having someone with these qualities and abilities would be an asset to any company or endever that you would undertake.

I know that perhaps my reasoning of the NT mind is questionable but logically the benefits of having such skilled employees would be immense.

My condition doesn't generate such abilities they say I am high functioning but at times I question my competency and how my daily functions appear to have been overestimated, it's fascinating reading all your posts.

[MiddleEarthNet]

The exceptional skills are amazing how you are all able to do complex tasks in your minds store and calculate permutations must enrich your lives greatly.

For all the issues autism can create there are so many benefits I struggle to comprehend the reasoning of some NTs in their attitude the benefits of having someone with these qualities and abilities would be an asset to any company or endever that you would undertake.

I know that perhaps my reasoning of the NT mind is questionable but logically the benefits of having such skilled employees would be immense.

My condition doesn't generate such abilities they say I am high functioning but at times I question my competency and how my daily functions appear to have been overestimated, it's fascinating reading all your posts.

 

Um, enrich is not exactly the word I would have used. Curse is more like it. The numbers just stay there permanently. I can't get rid of them. I can't forget them and (with the exception of numbers and patterns) my memory is pretty poor.

 

I agree with your logic regarding work but it doesn't seem to be the case. So for all my abilities with numbers and 3D objects, I am unable to hold a non work related conversation at work. I find each day increasingly more difficult as more is expected of me but I'm not coping and I'm spending increasing amounts of time shut in the toilet just because I can't manage anymore. I think it would be ok if the NTs understood the sometimes exceptional skills but normally they don't like it. I've been a called a circus freak for mine. They don't like it when someone that can barely talk, can real off numbers with ease.

[Livelife]

Um, enrich is not exactly the word I would have used. Curse is more like it. The numbers just stay there permanently. I can't get rid of them. I can't forget them and (with the exception of numbers and patterns) my memory is pretty poor.

 

I agree with your logic regarding work but it doesn't seem to be the case. So for all my abilities with numbers and 3D objects, I am unable to hold a non work related conversation at work. I find each day increasingly more difficult as more is expected of me but I'm not coping and I'm spending increasing amounts of time shut in the toilet just because I can't manage anymore. I think it would be ok if the NTs understood the sometimes exceptional skills but normally they don't like it. I've been a called a circus freak for mine. They don't like it when someone that can barely talk, can real off numbers with ease.

Firstly I've been told that one of the main reasons people act the way they do is because of jealousy and the resentment that they can't do the things your able to do. They would consider you a challenge to their positions irrespective of autism or any other characteristics you have it's their insecurities and bigotry that causes them to act in such a manor.

That doesn't make it any easier to cope with I have had comments directed at me since I was at school to the last days before I lost my job to incapacity for no other reason than I wasn't liked. The fact I had been there for over eight years doing the job didn't matter all that did was being Autistic.

Life is unfair and not liking yourself for your limitations is a daily fact of life for me. I'm not trying to belittle your points of view and when I try dealing with feelings I usually upset somebody which isn't my intention so I apologise if that's the case,

Feelings of inadequacy have always been apart of my life with depression and I am trying to use some of the coping mechanisms that I have had from my councillor and useful opinions from people here to try not to let what others say effect me so much.

I would use the word hatred of us because in some cases I don't think it's too strong a word because that is what I've had directed at me, it's not our fault or problem we are only responsible for what we do.

What others do looked at logically has no implications on us other than what we let them so we have the power to control our moods perceptions of life and its value.

Much harder to do than just say, maybe it doesn't even make sense but I'm willing to try to stop them making my life hell if it doesnt have any success then I have tried and I can give myself credit for doing so.

A small example, I was diagnosed diabetic November 2014 and a neighbour was diagnosed the same six months earlier. Because of my obsessive behaviour my girlfriend has explained I did everything I needed to do I changed my diet and started daily exercise, in the beginning I tried walking about two miles a day now I am walking five to seven with ease I am fitter than I have ever been and physically feel fine.

I can do heavy work such as gardening without feeling exhausted as I used to and the biggest achievement I have been taken off my medications I no longer need them within six months of being diagnosed.

Now my neighbour still likes to have a drink eats takeaways on a regular basis and has treats because it's allowed under the diabetic program of health care. He's still on his tablets and been told by his doctor that he will always be on them, he asked me how I was getting on with my diabetes and I told him my current state of health. His attitude changed towards me and when his wife was talking to my girlfriend she was saying that maybe I never had diabetes in the beginning it was only pre-diabetes and when they were talking about my diet things were said that gave her my girlfriend the impression of jealousy and resentment that I had managed to come off my medication and lead a healthy lifestyle.

I know that this may only be temporary and at some time in the future I may need to go back to medication but at least for now my tests are normal and as I've been told I am in the safe zone and feeling physically fitter and a lot more active.

Many people find it hard to diet or maintain these kinds of healthy lifestyles then they resent those that can manage it that's what my girlfriend said when I couldn't understand why the neighbour was acting differently.

She said that because of my Autism obsessive behaviour and my attention to details I was able to achieve this, I don't miss the foods I had to stop eating and when I do my blood sugar tests if it's not between 5.0 and 6.0 I'm doing additional exercise or measuring less sugar content in my next meal. The excepted range is 4.0 to 7.0 if your within that then your within safe limits, my average in the last three monthly test was 4.4 and the doctor said I could increase my sugar intake as that reading was a little low on the scale.

I do not have any special ability and I understand your point of view and comments but I think I'm trying to say that because of certain limitations don't let that make you feel that what you can do has no value.

I felt depressed when a neighbour changed towards me because I had achieved something, what should I have done let my diabetes stay out of control so as not to upset him and he wouldn't act differently toward me, I don't intend to do that so far I am doing fine and I feel good about myself for doing it. It may not be dramatic or skilful as your ability but I achieved it due to my obsessions and that part of being autistic improved my physical health and possibly prevented some nasty complications.

So as much as I dislike me it has been an advantage in another area of my life and I won't or at least try let others make me feel bad depressed and worthless for what I can do.

I've gone on a lot on this maybe I shouldn't have and if I have offended you in any way it wasnt my intention and apologise I thought maybe it would explain my perspective on the same concerns.

[Mr Salvador]

Its not just the martial arts for me, I work in engineering as a draughtsman. I was six, when I discovered I had an ability with technical drawing and 3D objects (not to be confused with artistic skill - I am awful at creative art). Some workmen were in the house and one of them left their plans on the floor, which I found. I had never seen a technical drawing before and freaked the guy out when I proceeded to explain why their design wouldn't work because stuff didn't line up. They didn't believe me. Two days they found out I was correct . At work people think I must recite the numbers to myself constantly. But I don't. I can remember thousands of wire idents from huge electrical systems and know instantly when one of them has been duplicated and then go back to exactly where both of the wires are to prove that it has been duplicated.

 

Mihaela, I like maps too. I've never heard of low functioning Asperger's but I suspect that might be where I am. If I am functioning I am ok, but when I am not functioning, my ability drops to the level of someone who is severely autistic.

 

My mum always shouts at me for wearing boys clothes. She hates it. She says it makes me look queer but I don't see the problem. I prefer to look and feel of boys clothes. She has said several times that she wanted me to be girly so she could dress me in dresses and go shopping with me.

 

Mr Salvador, I love taking things to pieces, changing it and putting it back together.

 

id love to hear more about martial arts, my mind has been practicing for years having remembered seeing many films on tv late night Chinese dub-overs

 

I wasn't sure if I would allow myself to practice these as im already big enough and don't want to become a liability if I go off on one??

 

I did the same as a child, telling adults where they were going wrong with things, I remember my dad storming off many times saying 'ok smart[expletive] if you think your so clever you do it!' and I guess I did, rewiring sockets andfitting gas lines for the cooker and all manner of diy and stuff when I was about 5 or 6.

 

I struggled through college years and fell down the slippery slope and had many dark years before I accepted myself just recently. I always knew my mind could do these wonderful things but every...all the NT's I mean told me I was either imagining it or crazy. I do remember my mum getting angry a lot saying 'how do you know these things you shouldn't know things like that at your age, who have you been talking to?!' when I was about 2 or 3. as soon as I could talk I was asking question my parents didn't know the answer to and they didn't take kindly to it.

 

I managed to get a temp job with an electrics installation company wiring up all the hospitals in Leicester with CAT5 cables for a new wifi bed tracking system that's coming out soon, that was mazing and could picture all the wiring system and got nicknamed the terminator for my speed and skill terminating all the wires. it only lasted a month though as 'my personality didn't fit the team' I guess the guys thought I was weird and not chatty enough with the stupid banter. oh well their loss

 

however I also related to some extent about this If I am functioning I am ok, but when I am not functioning, my ability drops to the level of someone who is severely autistic. I definitely have good and bad days, not sure if its anxiety related though. my gf says when im hungry and tired my symptoms are much worse, but I often forget to eat and stuff if either im really into something, or if im switched off that day. sometimes I lose half a day to starring

[Mr Salvador]

 

Um, enrich is not exactly the word I would have used. Curse is more like it. The numbers just stay there permanently. I can't get rid of them. I can't forget them and (with the exception of numbers and patterns) my memory is pretty poor.

 

I agree with your logic regarding work but it doesn't seem to be the case. So for all my abilities with numbers and 3D objects, I am unable to hold a non work related conversation at work. I find each day increasingly more difficult as more is expected of me but I'm not coping and I'm spending increasing amounts of time shut in the toilet just because I can't manage anymore. I think it would be ok if the NTs understood the sometimes exceptional skills but normally they don't like it. I've been a called a circus freak for mine. They don't like it when someone that can barely talk, can real off numbers with ease.

 

I relate to this all too well. im hearing your frustration with the NT's attitudes. its harsh the way the disbelieve exceptionalities. they even have NT's like that, for example the runner Bolt, he may be the fastest man in the world but he probably doesn't have a clue with maths. whereas the captin of the chess team isn't on the football team you know?

 

so why cant they understand that just because we're not chatty, perhaps that means we'll be better at something else??

 

they don't think

 

I have also been called names for being smart. I don't understand. idiots with golden boots get praised and paid, yet intelligent minds are not encouraged to be limitless, only beaten down and trained to the monkey see monkey do style its always been done. that's NOT me

[Mr Salvador]

ok so this tudy is further isolating the genes linked to autism,

 

their study did also include the DNA from one Neanderthal and also from a denisovan one of the other 6 early hominid species mentioned earlier in this thread.

 

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/10/141019094611.htm

 

the detail isn't great but at least they're joining up some of the dots

[Livelife]

ok so this tudy is further isolating the genes linked to autism,

 

their study did also include the DNA from one Neanderthal and also from a denisovan one of the other 6 early hominid species mentioned earlier in this thread.

 

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/10/141019094611.htm

 

the detail isn't great but at least they're joining up some of the dots

The further investigations into this will no doubt uncover more as times goes on and give us a greater understanding of the reason some people inherent this and others don't.

The more we find out the greater the control it will be the same as other discovery's leading us into another topic. Should at any time in the future they ever find a way to correct this would it be right to use this knowledge ao that nobody in society is autistic.

[Confused Traveller]

Should at any time in the future they ever find a way to correct this would it be right to use this knowledge ao that nobody in society is autistic.

It appears that many of the major discoveries and inventions that have helped shape the world have come from Aspies, or people who may well have had Aspergers, so correcting this "problem" could be an absolute disaster. Just look at the mess many NTs make of things through their actions, or through apathy!

[Mr Salvador]

Excactly confusedtraveller! Now you're on the right track. We don't need fixing, what we need is understanding and acceptance so we don't feel the need to pretend to be normal. I'm trying to learn how to embrace asperger so one day I can be 'better' than normski's

[Livelife]

It appears that many of the major discoveries and inventions that have helped shape the world have come from Aspies, or people who may well have had Aspergers, so correcting this "problem" could be an absolute disaster. Just look at the mess many NTs make of things through their actions, or through apathy!

Personally I agree with everything you say but as we know those who think they know better and run the world mostly to our detriment would not agree with us.

It doesn't matter what our individual nature is or what we achieve they will always have opinions on how we need to fit in, recently I've discovered I need a care plan from my doctor that the occupational health department of any future employer will contact them to confirm before employing me.

If a cure was discovered the government would most likely withdraw benefits unless we excepted the treatment. They are already considering this if somebody refuses treatment now if it would interfear with being able to work.

[Livelife]

Excactly confusedtraveller! Now you're on the right track. We don't need fixing, what we need is understanding and acceptance so we don't feel the need to pretend to be normal. I'm trying to learn how to embrace asperger so one day I can be 'better' than normski's

I feel personally I have nothing to prove to people who class themselves as normal if they want to think of me as subnormal because I have Aspergers then that is their prerogative.

[Mr Salvador]

I feel personally I have nothing to prove to people who class themselves as normal if they want to think of me as subnormal because I have Aspergers then that is their prerogative.

 

i'll second this motion

[Livelife]

i'll second this motion

I know a lot of people struggle with many things and it's honestly not a criticism of anybody, I just feel the way to deal with societies bigoted views and demands is to become a lot tougher ourselves and not worry about what they try to get us to be.

I don't always feel it or can't say it never effects me but I will not let that stop me from doing the only thing that's it's possible to be, that's me how I am and I won't change no matter how much I'm told I have to just to be excepted.