Link between Aspergers and Schizophrenia

[smiley]

Hullo

 

After having a read through some posts tonight (Wendy Lawson - has Aspergers but was initially diagnosed schizophrenic. And the Hereditary post...) i thought i'd ask your opinion on something that has been bugging me...

 

Has anyone ever heard of a diagnosis of Aspergers changing to schizophrenia as a child grows? The reason i ask is that my mum suffers from schizophrenia and whilst M was going through the diagnostic process it was something i often asked the Drs. I was always told that he had absoulutely no signs of schizophrenia and was so obviously 'textbook' (whatever that it ) Aspergers.

 

But, it's still niggling at me. He is showing no signs whatsoever but could it be something i may need to face in the future??

[call me jaded]

One of the early labels for autism was childhood schizophrenia. I know so little about schizophrenia that I dare not say more than that.

[Canopus]

Considering that AS has only been an official condition since 1995 then it really is too early to say whether it could metamorphasise into schizophrenia as one grows older.

 

I am tempted to say the reverse is more likely as children may have been diagnosed with schizophrenia prior to 1995 but would be diagnosed with AS today.

[Zemanski]

there are some traits in autism that have been misinterpreted by professionals as schizophrenia leading to misdiagnosis - as in Wendy Lawson's case.

 

Wendy Lawson says quite clearly that when she was assessed for schizophrenia questions were asked in a way that made her answers seem 'schizophrenic'

 

do you hear voices? - the autistic answer is literally 'yes'

do you see things? - again, 'yes'

 

AS is not schizophrenia and is not related so cannot develop into it. clinicians are much more able to differentiate the two these days - the clinical descriptions are clearer and assessments are more accurate.

 

schizophrenia can exist alongside AS/autism, as can many other conditions. It is rare in children anyway, onset is usually in the late teens and 20s but I think there are signs in children that a good clinician can sometimes pick up - if you have asked then they will have looked and are not seeing any signs.

 

your child is no more likely to develop schizophrenia than any other child with a family history. You may need to face it as a separate condition in the future but it's not something you can deal with now or do anything to prevent. If the doctors haven't spotted anything then I would try to relax, that's a really good sign.

 

AS is often called the 'jekyll and hyde syndrome' but this is because of the mood swings associated with stress and anxiety in one environment coming out in another - if a child is stressed at school they often mask that stress and behave like exemplary students in school and then come home and turn into a screaming ball of fury; Com does this all the time and it is classic AS behaviour, not schizophrenia. The child in these cases may not be in control of their emotions and may not know how to express their distress but they are reacting to real feelings. There is always a reason for an AS kid reacting like this, the problem, sometimes, is finding it.

 

hope that helps

 

try to relax and take things as they come - AS kids worry us enough already

 

take care

 

Zemanski

[lil_me]

My sister has a schizophrenia related disorder, a lot of her symptoms are extremely similar to AS traits. Obessions, like for sameness, meltdown when things change, literal thinking and talking, always talking about one subject etc

[Zemanski]

schizophrenia has a very wide pattern of presentations and there are overlaps with AS which also has numerous presentations but there are distinct differences, I'm not entirely sure what they are but I do know that clinicians are pretty good at identifying it these days.

 

the diagnostic criteria specify that they must check for autism so it is less likely for ASDs to be misdiagnosed as schizophrenia which has been a significant problem in the past.

 

there is also a chemical test now available but I'm not sure how widespread it is yet.

 

Zemanski

[Noetic]

I have often wondered if the similarities between Schizophrenia and Autism may perhaps be along the same lines as the similarities between Post-Encephalitic patients and autistics? I.e. the changes in the brain when the first episode occurs seem to lead to a similar presentation, even in the non-acute phases, because similar areas of the brain are affected.

 

Certainly from the few programmes I have seen that followed non-acute patients with Schizophrenia, the daily living skills problems, their behaviour and interaction, was very similar to AS for example (even in people where film evidence shows that they were "normal" as children and young adults).

 

In the same way, many patients who were infected with Encephalitis Lethargica (the disorder shown in Awakenings), especially those who were infected as children and didn't show any symptoms directly, seem to exhibit very autistic-like symptoms.

 

That might also explain why all 3 are associated with Catatonia?

Edited October 30, 2005 by Noetic

[Canopus]

Wendy Lawson says quite clearly that when she was assessed for schizophrenia questions were asked in a way that made her answers seem 'schizophrenic'

 

Funny you mention this. My father used to - and still sometimes does - ask me questions about myself phrased in a quirky obtuse way. I'm sure he has be trained to ask questions in such a way as part of his psychiatry education. I think it is intended as a trap to falsely diagnose people as schizophrenic when in reality they are not.

[smiley]

Thank you all for your repies - i think it's a kind of 'how long a piece of string' question. But you have helped to put my mind at rest. <'> <'>

 

I've just been looking at a thread at the AWARES conference, talking about the link - interesting stuff.

 

Thanks again

 

Mary xx

[clair]

hi funny this has been mentioned as I met a lad in the park one day and he was hiding in the bushes and wouldnt come out for his mum. He was 15 and we got talking. As his mum want on about her son all the AS traits came out and she told me that he was under the psycologist Camhs team. I suggested to her that he was sounding like he had AS and to mention this to the team. As I was no expert I told her that it might not be but it looked to me like he was with his voice tone etc. He also told me when his mum introduced him to me that he didnt like ginger people (i wasnt offended as I knew this was probably his AS traits of offending people without realising he had offended) he didnt know that he had done anything wrong. However I left her with my phone number and months later she phoned to say he had been given a diagnosis of AS and she wanted to know more. Afew months later I saw her and the diagnosis had been changed to Scizophrenia and he was in hospital.

 

The two must be easily confused as children get older I dont know. I am still convinced what I saw was AS. But who am I???????

[virtualvisual]

I've been thinking long and hard before replying to this topic so forgive me if I offend anyone.

 

My first husband was diagnosed as having acute paranoid schizophrenia when he was 23, he was on medication for years until we were married, he came off it when we were trying for a family. we had Alex and the twins 13 months later. As I learnt more about Alex's aspergers I started to question hubbys psychiatrist about whether he had aspergers instead. We eventually spoke to a number of people who knew him as a child including a couple of his teachers and the psychiatrist agreed that he "probably" had aspergers but his family had treated any odd behaviour as a sign that he was possessed by the devil. (they are from eastern europe and quite odd) I think as they had told him that time and again that eventually he believed it. For over 10 years we were married and during that time only once did he exhibit any kind of behaviour expected from a schizoprenic, and that was only at a time of extreme stress. It was eventually suggested that he actually had Aspergers but had developed schizophrenic behaviour in order to cope/fit in with what he thought his family wanted. His father also had had mental health problems that looked more like ASD than anything else and the last time I spoke to the psychiatrist he was trying to research (in his own time) whether the family link to ASD could go back further.

 

Hubby eventually developed a drink problem while trying to cope with the boys problems and finding out I have MS and due to this and the violence that went with it I left with the kids, within 3 months of his family "caring" for him he had died from a reaction to the medication they had him put on.

[Noetic]

It was eventually suggested that he actually had Aspergers but had developed schizophrenic behaviour in order to cope/fit in with what he thought his family wanted.

That sounds quite implausible. Acute Schizophrenia is a serious mental illness and not a behaviour that one learns.

 

(It is however possible that the pressure from his family triggered a psychotic episode, which is not the same as Schizophrenia - if his family believe people can be possessed by the devil, maybe they are the ones that need examining? )

Edited October 31, 2005 by Noetic

[mossgrove]

I am uncertain if one can 'mutate' into the other, but I can see how one could be mistaken for another, especially during the early stages of the diagnostic process.

 

within 3 months of his family "caring" for him he had died from a reaction to the medication they had him put on.

 

My heart goes out to you. My Aunt was a schizophrenic who died from a reaction to medication about 25 years ago. My partners mother was also a schizophrenic and she died in an accident 15 years ago after failing to take her medication. There are difficult choices to make when treating this illness.

 

Simon

Edited October 31, 2005 by mossgrove

[smiley]

It is a horendous illness to watch someone live with - i care for my mum ('care in the community' - yeah, right! ) and the things she experience are terrifying for her.

 

Certain things i have been thinking about have put my mind at ease. My brother for one. Since my son's diagnosis it has become very clear to all that know him, and indeed to himself, that he most likely has Aspergers...he's considering an adult diagnosis at the momeent. Other family members have increadibly similar traits (i have opened up a big can of worms in my family!!) but none have the phycotic episodes that my mum suffers from (and all are male).

 

The way i'm trying to look at it now is positively - if we do have to cross that 'bridge', i know i have a good understanding of schizophrenia and will therefore be able to help M.

 

VV - My heart goes out to you, what a difficult time it must have been for you <'> <'>

[Guest hallyscomet]

Hi

 

I took my son to a Study Skills course at a school for Autism for kids with Aspergers, and I noticed some leaflets about Schizophrenia and I asked the therapist about it. She said that it is part of the spectrum that can go hand in hand with AS but not all children develop it.

 

As it was in the Group of Teens attending some had Aspergers,ADD, ADHD, RETTS, OCD, & Schizophrenia and a cluster of other conditions.

 

Regards

Hailey

[Guest hallyscomet]

Hi

 

I doubled up on this just deleting duplicate response.

Edited January 11, 2006 by hallyscomet