Jump to content
Janey

What makes me really mad.

Recommended Posts

Just read the things people have written on this subject; it seems to me that the americans want to make a scape goat of some one; and if you don't have any financial clout or political clout you don't stand a chance.

I don't recall reading that he has made millions from selling info on how to hack into NASA? or that he intended too! May be he should be working for them! Cos clearly they can't do a very good job themselves.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hi lisac

 

I apologise for wrongly assuming your son was younger. Your situation would rather appear to be a good example of what we are trying to DEFEND. If your son was in GM's position, it sounds like you would be totally justified in including AS in any defence. Your son would perhaps not realise the seriousness or consequences of his actions, or would be unable to resist the urge to do what he was doing, and would not understand any impact on other people. Someone in this situation needs this defence to be given proper value. If people use AS as a defence when it did not hinder/disable their thought process or realisation of the illegality of their actions, then your son's defence would not be given the credence it should be given.

 

GM has admitted he knew what he was doing was not just wrong but ILLEGAL and he did it anyway. He did not just look for the information he wanted, he left messages and apparently deleted files. This is not harmless and can cause losses of information and a financial cost. If I had a company and he did that to my computer system, and admitted he knew it was illegal but did it anyway, I would want the proper legal process to take place. If someone like your son did it and genuinely did not understand the enormity of what he had done, that would be a different case entirely.

 

It is my understanding and concern and compassion for people with AS, and my knowledge of the very varied level of comprehension and ability that people with AS can have, that leads me to wonder and discuss whether GM is genuine in his use of AS in his defence case. Perhaps it is being used because he has NO OTHER DEFENCE for his actions, and not because it was genuinely a factor in the case. I hope this explains my point of view better.

 

 

I agree with your post but it raises a question in my mind. If he knew that what he was doing was illegal, then why did he leave messages which I presume were traceable back to him? That seems to show a lack of forethought rather like robbing a bank and leaving your wallet.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On another case entirely - i was reading the BBc website today: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/norfolk/8204839.stm

 

and noticed this little line.... He said: "Because Mr Martin suffers from Asperger's syndrome he can't show his feelings.

 

Now where did that one come from???? In 10 years I have never heard that Tony Martin was AS, and there was plenty of hullaballoo about the case at the time, and again on the release of the living burglar, and again on Tony martin's release!

 

Without wishing to restart a discussion on the case (just because I have argued it so very many times), what was the BBC's reasoning behind that particular revelation do you think? Or evidence? Is it another "poor Aspies can not help themselves and therefore should be allowed to commit crimes" D'you think? I found it discomforting wothout being able to quite work out why. But then again, when the GHary M stuff first stareted I found it discomforting without knowing why - I needed you guys to explain what i felt was wrong with the whole campaign :notworthy:

 

They might have mentioned it in relation to Tony Martin's emotional response to what happened. Some might think that eventhough his house was being burgled (again), that when he shot the teenager and learnt of the outcome ie. his death, that he should have showed some emotions. This maybe part of how Aspergers affects TM, as my son can seem totally unaffected by something I would regard as tragic, and then get very upset about something I consider trivial. But how people react under stress is not always your typical response. Some people are emotional, others go into shock or push down their emotions, others can be very factual about their experience and not feel a victim etc. Again everyone is different.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm going a bit off topic now - so please excuse me. But whilst reading the posts in this forum I keep thinking about the Lockerbie bomber. He was not extradicted to the USA eventhough he killed mainly Americans. (As is always the case there are arguments for whether or not he was guilty - but lets presume he was guilty). How many years of his sentence has he served? How come he has been let out early? There has also been talk in the press that there has been some kind of trade agreement between the UK and Libya in the wake of his release. This does not make me feel confident at all in the justic and fairness of our systems.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was discussing the Gary McKinnon affair with a lawyer who specialises in international law. He told me that he is 99.99999% convinced that the Israeli government, and not the US government, are the ones demanding the extradition. I asked the lawyer to explain this in more detail and his reply was that although he does not have accurate information about exactly what computers Gary McKinnon hacked into and what data he was able to access or corrupt, he thinks that some of the data concerned Israel and either included material of a top secret nature or that which will cause serious embarrassment to Israel, and Israel somehow found out about the hacking. Although the lawyer is no expert on the technicalities of hacking computers, he knows that plenty of computers owned by the US government and military contain top secret data about Israel. Under various international agreements, the Israeli government has access to computers owned by the US government and military, and vice versa for the US government.

 

The decision whether to prosecute a hacker is a dilemma for the owners of a computer that has been hacked into. The lawyer stated it is quite commonplace for hacking to go unreported and the hacker to be let off scot free simply in order to avoid potential embarrassment that a certain organisation's computer security is weak. There have even been cases where a discovered hacker has been sent a strongly worded letter saying that the organisation will drop all charges on the condition that the hacker signs and returns a form declaring they will not disseminate any data they have accessed, and keep their trap shut about the hacking incident. If they publicise the hacking incident then the organisation will prosecute as it will have nothing to lose and everything to gain.

 

The lawyer thinks that it is possible that the US government would either have let Gary McKinnon off or pressed for the British government to prosecute him under the Computer Misuse Act if he had hacked into purely American computers, because in reality he is a curious lone wolf rather than involved in organised terrorism. If however, another foreign power such as Israel enters the equation then it becomes a completely different story, and the lawyer thinks that the government of Israel considers Gary McKinnon to be a serious danger to their country, so are pressing for the extradition.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I was discussing the Gary McKinnon affair with a lawyer who specialises in international law. He told me that he is 99.99999% convinced that the Israeli government, and not the US government, are the ones demanding the extradition. I asked the lawyer to explain this in more detail and his reply was that although he does not have accurate information about exactly what computers Gary McKinnon hacked into and what data he was able to access or corrupt, he thinks that some of the data concerned Israel and either included material of a top secret nature or that which will cause serious embarrassment to Israel, and Israel somehow found out about the hacking. Although the lawyer is no expert on the technicalities of hacking computers, he knows that plenty of computers owned by the US government and military contain top secret data about Israel. Under various international agreements, the Israeli government has access to computers owned by the US government and military, and vice versa for the US government.

 

The decision whether to prosecute a hacker is a dilemma for the owners of a computer that has been hacked into. The lawyer stated it is quite commonplace for hacking to go unreported and the hacker to be let off scot free simply in order to avoid potential embarrassment that a certain organisation's computer security is weak. There have even been cases where a discovered hacker has been sent a strongly worded letter saying that the organisation will drop all charges on the condition that the hacker signs and returns a form declaring they will not disseminate any data they have accessed, and keep their trap shut about the hacking incident. If they publicise the hacking incident then the organisation will prosecute as it will have nothing to lose and everything to gain.

 

The lawyer thinks that it is possible that the US government would either have let Gary McKinnon off or pressed for the British government to prosecute him under the Computer Misuse Act if he had hacked into purely American computers, because in reality he is a curious lone wolf rather than involved in organised terrorism. If however, another foreign power such as Israel enters the equation then it becomes a completely different story, and the lawyer thinks that the government of Israel considers Gary McKinnon to be a serious danger to their country, so are pressing for the extradition.

 

And this has what to do with autism?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I was discussing the Gary McKinnon affair with a lawyer who specialises in international law. He told me that he is 99.99999% convinced that the Israeli government, and not the US government, are the ones demanding the extradition. I asked the lawyer to explain this in more detail and his reply was that although he does not have accurate information

when i was 4 i was 99.99999% convinced father christmas existed and it was his elves who made the bike i got as a present. doesn't mean i was right, or that i had any evidence to prove it

The decision whether to prosecute a hacker is a dilemma for the owners of a computer that has been hacked into.

doesn't that statement completely void your arguments about UK prosecution? US computer = US choice to prosecute

 

at the end of the day the real argument is about law, whether you agree with the UK or US penal system, and whether you think it is legal/illegal for the extradtion to go ahead. none of this has anything to do with ASDs so i'm not sure why the media/McKinnons defense keep using it. prison is designed to contain someone in a place away from their normal life so all this support network stuff is just bizarre.

 

 

as to the lockerbie bomber the crime of terrorism was effected on UK soil and isn't an apropriate comparison because law was completely different and internet crime was basically unheard of so why try to compare those two? the world has changed.

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
when i was 4 i was 99.99999% convinced father christmas existed and it was his elves who made the bike i got as a present. doesn't mean i was right, or that i had any evidence to prove it

 

I'm talking about a professional, not a 4 year old!

 

doesn't that statement completely void your arguments about UK prosecution? US computer = US choice to prosecute

 

The decision has been made to prosecute. The Computer Misuse Act applies to hacking foreign computers from the UK.

 

at the end of the day the real argument is about law, whether you agree with the UK or US penal system, and whether you think it is legal/illegal for the extradtion to go ahead. none of this has anything to do with ASDs so i'm not sure why the media/McKinnons defense keep using it.

 

It intrigues me why AS has been promoted into a serious matter in this legal case. That's why I raised the question that Gary McKinnon's lawyers might know something important that we don't know.

 

prison is designed to contain someone in a place away from their normal life so all this support network stuff is just bizarre.

 

There is also the question whether Gary McKinnon could ever hope to survive for any length of time in a top security US prison or whether it is a strong certainty that he will be killed by other inmates.

Edited by Canopus

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I agree with your post but it raises a question in my mind. If he knew that what he was doing was illegal, then why did he leave messages which I presume were traceable back to him? That seems to show a lack of forethought rather like robbing a bank and leaving your wallet.

It is possible to be an idiot and know that you are breaking the law. :shame: The two are not mutually exclusive. Nor does it have anything to do with AS.

 

How come he has been let out early? There has also been talk in the press that there has been some kind of trade agreement between the UK and Libya in the wake of his release. This does not make me feel confident at all in the justice and fairness of our systems.

The bombing was committed over UK soils and killed people here as well as on the plane. I think he has been let out because he has terminal cancer. Or was that the train robber? Or both? If you believe everything you read in the Daily Wail or other quality newspapers you'd be too scared to step outside your front door.

 

I was discussing the Gary McKinnon affair with a lawyer who specialises in international law. He told me that he is 99.99999% convinced that the Israeli government, and not the US government, are the ones demanding the extradition.

:lol: :lol: *checks calendar*

 

Sorry, thought it must be April 1st.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's normal for prisoners to be released if they become very ill - as is the case with the Lockerbie bomber and Ronnie Biggs. I can see how it might seem unfair, but it is a completely different scenario to Gary McKinnon, who has not yet even been trialled.

 

How would autism make it more likely for Gary McKinnon to be killed by other inmates in a jail in America than in a jail in the UK? I really don't understand the point you are trying to make here, or what it has to do with autism.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
How would autism make it more likely for Gary McKinnon to be killed by other inmates in a jail in America than in a jail in the UK? I really don't understand the point you are trying to make here, or what it has to do with autism.

 

Because American top security prisons are much nastier and more violent places than their British counterparts. The differences between British and American culture and lifestyle will make life more difficult for a British citizen in an American prison, and even more so for one with AS. If one is to survive then they will have to understand American street slang and non-verbal communication. A possible analogy is like a British citizen with no knowledge of Arabic being imprisoned in Libya where all communication with the staff and inmates is in Arabic. Break a rule and get shouted at in a language you can't understand a word of. Break another rule and this time get punched up by an inmate.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The bomber guy was released on "compassionate" grounds due to illness...and received a heroes welcome on arriving home. Should have left him to die in prison.

 

I know if I was GM, facing the rest of my life in an American jail, I'd rather be dead. Yes he should be punished, but in the country where he committed the crime, by that country's law. Our government is weak and cowardly and we should be ashamed of them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But we are not sending Gary McKinnon to Lybia where he might not face a fair trial. We are sending him to the USA. His legal team have a responsibility to ensure that his AS is taken into account and adjustments made when sentencing him where necessary. because of his AS - and also that he gets a fair sentence.

 

WHy would he end up in a top security prison anyway? Aren't they for people who have committed violent crimes? Your explanation does not sound like a prison full of computer nerds anyway. Given there is no internet access for prisoners in ANY type of prison, I can't understand why you imagine Gary McKinnon would ever end up in a high security prison. He hasn't even been tried yet. WHy are you assuming they are going to sentence him to the longest prison term possible in the worst possible place.

 

To be honest, you sound so paranoid that I am finding it hard to take anything you say seriously.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I'm talking about a professional, not a 4 year old!
one could argue that a 4 year old is a professional in father christmas. being a lawyer doesn't make him an expert in a specific case to which he (presumably) has no official insight beyond that released to the public. your obsession with conspiracy and blatant paranoia is getting silly so i'm not going to comment on these conspiracies anymore.

 

There is also the question whether Gary McKinnon could ever hope to survive for any length of time in a top security US prison or whether it is a strong certainty that he will be killed by other inmates.

he has AS, he's not stupid.

firstly you cant possibly know what class of prison he will go to, and secondly your views on US prisons are as riddled in conspiracy as everything else when you have no evidence to prove otherwise. your friend who worked in one isn't likely to present a balanced picture when discussing horror stories. i live with foster kids and could tell you some pretty horrific stories of things they have done but that doesn't mean that is the total sum of the experience, or even the main portion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
But we are not sending Gary McKinnon to Lybia where he might not face a fair trial. We are sending him to the USA. His legal team have a responsibility to ensure that his AS is taken into account and adjustments made when sentencing him where necessary. because of his AS - and also that he gets a fair sentence.

 

My statement of SEN from 1989 mentioned that my special needs must be taken into account by the residential school I attended and adjustments made where necessary. What happened was that I ended up being treated very badly and unjustly by both the staff and students. This has imprinted a message on my mind that any mention of taking into account special needs and making adjustments are only words until the measures are actually delivered in practice.

 

WHy would he end up in a top security prison anyway? Aren't they for people who have committed violent crimes? Your explanation does not sound like a prison full of computer nerds anyway. Given there is no internet access for prisoners in ANY type of prison, I can't understand why you imagine Gary McKinnon would ever end up in a high security prison. He hasn't even been tried yet. WHy are you assuming they are going to sentence him to the longest prison term possible in the worst possible place.

 

This smacks of naivety. It is sensible to make a worst case analysis of this situation.

 

It is probably safe to say that the moment Gary McKinnon leaves British soil, he is in the hands of the Yanks and the British government will have no say over what happens next.

 

To be honest, you sound so paranoid that I am finding it hard to take anything you say seriously.

 

I am concerned. Read above about making a worst case analysis.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
But we are not sending Gary McKinnon to Lybia where he might not face a fair trial. We are sending him to the USA. His legal team have a responsibility to ensure that his AS is taken into account and adjustments made when sentencing him where necessary. because of his AS - and also that he gets a fair sentence.

 

WHy would he end up in a top security prison anyway? Aren't they for people who have committed violent crimes? Your explanation does not sound like a prison full of computer nerds anyway. Given there is no internet access for prisoners in ANY type of prison, I can't understand why you imagine Gary McKinnon would ever end up in a high security prison. He hasn't even been tried yet. WHy are you assuming they are going to sentence him to the longest prison term possible in the worst possible place.

 

To be honest, you sound so paranoid that I am finding it hard to take anything you say seriously.

 

The fact that the USA is seeking extradiciton and that there is a potential 60 years in jail means that GMs lawyers have to put arguments to counteract that. Once he is sentenced it is too late. So both sides will use all the amunition they have. Also as the Lockerbie bomber has been released by Scotland, then the UK may feel pressurised by the USA in agreeing to their terms in this case. These things happen. Some people and some cases are used to 'make an example'. There is not the fairness or continuity throughout the system. For example the parents of Baby P may well serve longer prison sentences than the parents of other murdered children simply because of the public reaction to Baby Ps death. People lost their jobs and laws changed. That doesn't happen every time a child dies. With the GM case his lawyers will be using whatever they can to fight his case because that is what they are paid to do. And the court isn't just going to go on his lawyers words. They will have to prove that AS has had some bearing on this case. Or he may have a mental illness.

If AS does have a bearing on this case them it should be explained. If it doesn't then the fact he has AS will have no bearing on the outcome.

Once he is extradicted it is much harder. He is a UK citizen in a USA jail. For example if he were beaten up or raped in a UK jail his family would know that had happened and might contact their MP etc. And their MP, voted for by them, will represent their case and fight on their behalf. Who would the family contact in the USA. Would anyone be interested or even responsible?

 

I don't think he should be extradicted because it doesn't work the other way around.

I also don't think GM should be extradicted to a country that set up Guantanamo Bay and held people for years without trial or legal representation and who tortured people for years illegally by all international laws. But I don't see anyone in the USA standing trial for that. Which brings me back to the fairness and justice of the systems in general. I might be happy for GM to be extradicted to the USA, if Donald Rumsfeld and others were extradicted to Iraq or Pakistan for war crimes.

Although AS being mentioned in this case is what is upsetting some people, it is not just about that. There are many things going on, it isn't just black and white.

 

Some people with an ASD will commit crimes and sometimes their diagnosis will have a bearing on it. For many others they will never commit any crime. For those crimes reported in the newspapers and media there will be stereotyping and lack of information because that is what the media does. It isn't really about news, it is about increased ratings or newspaper sales. Therefore it is totally right for people to complain about these stereotypes and to push for the media to be better informed and to report these cases better.

 

Has anyone actually asked the NAS why they feel they should support his case. In what way do they feel AS has played a part? Are they supporting GM because they feel AS is a key element of this case, or because they feel someone with AS is not going to be treated fairly overall by the system?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is what NAS wrote to me in May:

 

Many thanks for you response to this action. We understand your concerns because this is a particularly difficult and controversial case. Hopefully, I will be able to address these but I greatly appreciate you views on this subject and the broader activities of the NAS.

 

 

 

Whilst this action does focus on one specific individual, our involvement was promoted from the wider political and legal implications that the outcome could have. We in no way condone the actions of Mr McKinnon. Or concern stems for our conviction that extradition would be severely damaging for someone with Asperger syndrome. Therefore we are quite clear that Gary should face legal proceedings but they should take place in the UK where he is close to a vital support network.

 

The supporter email that went out was written by Janice, Gary's mum, and was not intended to trivialize the severity of his actions.

 

 

 

Our involvement was taken after considerable deliberation where expert advice was sought and reaffirmed our belief that extradition is damaging for someone with Asperger syndrome. So whilst this has been quite a reactionary action by the NAS, it does fit into our broader campaign objectives of raising awareness of autism and Asperger Syndrome, particularly in relation to the criminal justice system. For this reason, we also submitted evidence to the High Court which led to the forthcoming Judicial Review. The evidence consisted of explaining the nature of Asperger syndrome and the fact that people receive late diagnoses. This evidence was particularly important since the High Court acknowledged that Gary had been diagnosed with Asperger syndrome late and that it seemed that late diagnosis was not uncommon.

 

 

 

We certainly appreciate that our involvement in this particular case can be quite decisive but after we launched the initial action for supporters to contact the UK Attorney General in January of this year, we actually doubled the size of our supporter base. Our campaign objectives are decided through consultation with our members, but the reactive approach we had to take on this case is a result of its urgency.

 

 

 

You have raised an extremely important point in that we have perhaps not communicated clearly enough, that this campaign is not just about Gary but awareness raising of autism and Asperger Syndrome. With that in mind, we will be evaluating our messaging on your website and will look to update the Gary McKinnon page with this wider context and access to resources.

 

 

 

I look forward to your comments

 

 

 

Best wishes

 

 

 

Shane

 

 

Shane Samarasinghe

Campaigns Assistant

The National Autistic Society

393 City Road, London, EC1V 1NG

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
It is possible to be an idiot and know that you are breaking the law. :shame: The two are not mutually exclusive. Nor does it have anything to do with AS.

 

 

The bombing was committed over UK soils and killed people here as well as on the plane. I think he has been let out because he has terminal cancer. Or was that the train robber? Or both? If you believe everything you read in the Daily Wail or other quality newspapers you'd be too scared to step outside your front door.

 

 

:lol: :lol: *checks calendar*

 

Sorry, thought it must be April 1st.

 

I don't know how to highlight parts of posts, but regarding GM being an idiot and breaking the law - it has been said he was a systems analyst, and therefore supposedly intelligent. Therefore you would expect this type of hacker to try to cover his tracks and not leave a trail that leads to his door. The fact that he didn't, or didn't appear to have the presence of mind to do this, does make me wonder about him?

Those professionals that will see, interview or assess him should get an idea of whether AS is relevant or not in this case. No one can say that AS is definately relevant and neither can anyone say that it definately isn't relevant. We are not professionals and we are not assessing him. I do believe that how AS affects him should be looked at to see if it is relevant. If it is I am happy with that. If it isn't I am happy with that. I don't have a set point of view on this. I just feel this is all part of the process of this case. But I do definately feel that GM should not be extradicted not just because I am not happy with the idea in principle, but because I feel he is more vulnerable due to his diagnosis and therefore some 'compassion' that has so easily been dished out to others should be shown a little towards him and any future offenders who have an ASD. When so many of our children have statements to help them cope within the education system I don't see it is such a huge step to say that other 'systems' including the criminal system should consider the implications of a diagnosis.

Public knowledge of AS/ASDs in general needs to be improved so that the public do understand that not everyone on the spectrum is a potential criminal. But some on the spectrum will be criminals, and some of those might get into criminal trouble due, in part, to their diagnosis. Surely that is a statistic to be expected, in the same way that someone with a low IQ, or mental illness, or a woman with PMS might get into trouble with the law, but having a low IQ, mental illness or suffering from PMS does not mean you will definately be a criminal.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
But some on the spectrum will be criminals, and some of those might get into criminal trouble due, in part, to their diagnosis.

GM has admitted that he knew what he was doing would be and was wrong but made the active decision to do it anyway. Therefore, whether or not the diagnosis had any role to play is irrelevant. There is no case here that he didn't know what he was doing or couldn't help what he was doing. He knew what he was doing and he could have not done it if he wanted to. His acts are purely of his choosing and as such he must face the consequences of his actions.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
GM has admitted that he knew what he was doing would be and was wrong but made the active decision to do it anyway. Therefore, whether or not the diagnosis had any role to play is irrelevant. There is no case here that he didn't know what he was doing or couldn't help what he was doing. He knew what he was doing and he could have not done it if he wanted to. His acts are purely of his choosing and as such he must face the consequences of his actions.

 

The official consequences of his actions are a maximum of 5 years in a British prison. Extradition is a hidden extra being used very dishonestly because the crimes were committed before the legislation came into force.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The official consequences of his actions are a maximum of 5 years in a British prison. Extradition is a hidden extra being used very dishonestly because the crimes were committed before the legislation came into force.

But that's suggesting that it's OK to commit crimes if you think you will only get XXX punishment. If you actively choose to break the law you have to accept the consequences whatever these are. It is not a defence to say, "Oh, but I only thought XXX would happen to me."

 

Anyway, that has nothing to do with AS, and that's my concern here: the way AS has been used and portrayed.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
It is probably safe to say that the moment Gary McKinnon leaves British soil, he is in the hands of the Yanks and the British government will have no say over what happens next.

your personal apparent hatred of the US is irrelevant to the case. the UK government evidently feels that any punishment given by the US is appropriate or they would not go ahead with it. as far as i know we dont extradite people who would face the death sentence in america, as that would be against our legal morals. him serving his sentence in a US prison is not.

 

your views on the legality of this have been made clear but they aren't the views of the UK leal system and have nothing to do with him having AS

 

all of this use of AS is harmful. if i apply for a job right now and put that i have AS on the form the first thing they're going to think is 'oh, she's like Gary McKinnon'. the NAS endorsement only further enforces that what he did is 'normal AS behaviour', even if that isn't their intention

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
GM has admitted that he knew what he was doing would be and was wrong but made the active decision to do it anyway. Therefore, whether or not the diagnosis had any role to play is irrelevant. There is no case here that he didn't know what he was doing or couldn't help what he was doing. He knew what he was doing and he could have not done it if he wanted to. His acts are purely of his choosing and as such he must face the consequences of his actions.

 

Obviously I don't know the thought processes of GM. But for example, what about the Watergate Scandal. Reporters were investigating the President of the USA and did find that he, along with others, had committed various serious criminal offences. If GM truely believed in aliens and conspiracy theories then he might have felt his actions were justified. So I don't think it is just a case of he knew what he was doing was wrong. What motivated him to do it. He obviously thought the government was hiding something that needed to be exposed. Whether that obsession or belief was in part due to his diagnosis I don't know. Or there maybe something completely different that his legal team are going to argue on regarding his diagnosis and the relevance of it to this case.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
If GM truely believed in aliens and conspiracy theories then he might have felt his actions were justified.
murderers sometimes feel justified in their actions because they think the person they killed 'had to die' as a result of some percieved injustice. doesn't mean they should get off their sentence or that what they did was right. in his GMTV interview GM said he was looking for evidence that the government was hushing up a new energy system, and he and a group of other people felt that was wrong and wanted to 'out' it. as i said before, AS seems to be the new insanity plea - i'm not responsible for what i did because i have AS' and thats a very slippery slope. we already think of insane people as dangerous, soon AS people will be seen in the same way :tearful:

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Although obsessional behaviour is partly connected to AS, when it forces you to things you know are illegal, it has gone beyond normal AS special interests and become a clinical illness such as Obsessive Compulsive Disorder. It's possible that Gary McKinnon's AS put him at a higher risk of developing OCD, which led to him being unable to restrain himself from breaking the law. I don't know whether Gary McKinnon has OCD as well as AS.

 

But I also think that when someone has a condition which causes them to behave in ways that they know are illegal, they really have a responsibility to seek help to stop themselves from breaking the law. It is different if a person is suffering from a psychosis and genuinely cannot tell that what they are doing is wrong, but I don't think Gary McKinnon was suffering from quite this level of illness.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
But that's suggesting that it's OK to commit crimes if you think you will only get XXX punishment.

 

Yes. That is how the British system of justice works. Laws are made and the maximum penalty is detailed within them.

 

If you actively choose to break the law you have to accept the consequences whatever these are.

 

That is not how the British system of justice works. Courtroom judges and the Home Secretary are unable to dish out whatever penalties and punishments they wish; they have to implement only those contained within the law.

 

It is not a defence to say, "Oh, but I only thought XXX would happen to me."

 

You have to bear in mind that this is a very unusual legal case. We have somebody threatened with a (draconian) punishment that was not enshrined in the law at the time the crime was committed and it is being imposed by a foreign nation despite Britain having laws to prosecute him that were in force long before the crime was committed.

 

Anyway, that has nothing to do with AS, and that's my concern here: the way AS has been used and portrayed.

 

Perhaps if Gary McKinnon was prosecuted under the Computer Misuse Act at the outset before his AS was discovered, and subsequently entered the equation, then it could have saved a lot of heartache for everyone. Deciding to extradite a British citizen with a legal case dragging on for years is bound to open up a large can of worms.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
your personal apparent hatred of the US is irrelevant to the case. the UK government evidently feels that any punishment given by the US is appropriate or they would not go ahead with it. as far as i know we dont extradite people who would face the death sentence in america, as that would be against our legal morals. him serving his sentence in a US prison is not.

 

There are countless Americans opposed to this extradition.

 

I previously mentioned that the British government is almost certainly under pressure by the US government to extradite Gary McKinnon or else face serious repercussions in the future - just like school playground style bullying.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
murderers sometimes feel justified in their actions because they think the person they killed 'had to die' as a result of some percieved injustice. doesn't mean they should get off their sentence or that what they did was right. in his GMTV interview GM said he was looking for evidence that the government was hushing up a new energy system, and he and a group of other people felt that was wrong and wanted to 'out' it. as i said before, AS seems to be the new insanity plea - i'm not responsible for what i did because i have AS' and thats a very slippery slope. we already think of insane people as dangerous, soon AS people will be seen in the same way :tearful:

 

I don't think that will be the case. That is why people like yourselves and others do write, email and complain about how those with AS are portrayed. But some people with a mental illness do commit murder. Most don't, and those people and the groups that support them do campaign on this subject. And people who have been motived to commit crimes due to mental illness or other diagnosis do have that taken into consideration if they are convicted. There is a difference between one person committing murder and another one committing murder because they had something like schizophrenia and heard voices from God telling him to do it. There are different jails that take different types of criminals etc.

From what I have read the campaign regarding GM, it isn't just about AS. And the fact that he has AS has meant that groups associated with AS have been contacted because they may feel they have an interest in this subject and the laws involved in the UK and USA involved in this case. As a mother of a child with an ASD I would like my son's diagnosis to be considered if he every got into trouble. But of course I would not want people to suspect him of being a potential criminal just because of his diagnosis. It is a fine line.

 

I have also read that GM refutes alot of what the USA is saying he did and definately says he did not cause any damage. His lawyers are also arguing that he does not have any opportunity in court to refute those allegations prior to extradition and the USA do not need to provide any proof of those allegations prior to extradition. The treaty they are using means that the USA only has to say what they think he did and he could be extradicted whether he did them or not. The USA has also recently changed their own laws so that they no longer need to provide any proof of damage prior to an application for extradition. So it sounds like, without any evidence, the USA can say what they want, don't need to prove damage, and the UK is willing to give up its citizens. Infact the USA has agreed that it is highly unlikely that they could produce any evidence of 'damage'. Regardless of whether he has AS or not, or whether his diagnosis played a part in this case, I am rather disturbed by this. I don't think he should be extradited. But if he were to be so, I think at the very least there should be a trial in the UK to establish what exactly is the USA case against him. Our own CPS service decided not to prosecute him. So how come our CPS thought he was either a low threat or they had no evidence, but the USA is talking about a potential 60 years.

 

There was also another post recently about how someone had not liked the term 'suffers from Aspergers Syndrome'. And again, I don't like the wording of that. But at the same time my son definately does 'suffer' at times due to his diagnosis. I would have preferred a wording like "XXX has AS and sometimes suffers from X Y and X". Because having AS isn't all about suffering. There are brilliant things about it too. But his life would almost certainly be 'easier' if he did not have a diagnosis.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Why is it that the press do our children a great disservice when they report on criminals who are aspergers or autistic? Let me give you some examples:

 

Barry George originally convicted for the murder of Gill Dando reported as Aspergers

Andrew Ibrahain convicted of terrorist bombing in Bristol, reported as Aspergers

Garry McKinnon accused of hacking US military computer systems, reported as Aspergers

Adam Tait, airline fraudster, reported as autistic.

 

This gives the ignorant general public the impression that ASD or Autistic people don't know right from wrong and must all be nutters. They wouldn't report on a criminal who wears false teeth or who's colour blind for example, why do they need to report on ASD? I get the impression that the reports always suggest that the ASD is the reason for these people's criminal activities which may be to some extent true, but it paints a very gloomy picture and fuels prejudice for most law abiding ASD people. I find this very disturbing for the future of my very rule obeying autistic child, his life is going to be difficult enough without the press suggesting he is a potential criminal.

 

Janey

 

Going back to your original post. I don't see what else can be done other than what we are doing here ie. you bringing it up, others sending emails complaining about how ASD is portrayed, others agreeing that the diagnosis should at least be looked into. As you say some with a diagnosis will commit crimes, and some of those might have done it as a result of how their diagnosis affects them. Unfortunately other criminals do not have to have the label 'NT' next to their name, when infact most crimes are committed by NT adults. If that were to be put into the equation (and media), then maybe we would all feel better.

But I think the whole criminal system does need to understand about autism and aspergers because people like Barry George were convicted because their behaviour was seen as 'strange' and made him the strongest suspect of her murder. He was considered a stalker, with an obsession etc. That could fit the profile of some adults with AS. And he has now been freed on appeal because when the evidence was re-examined it was found it did not stand up to more modern techniques. So it appears he was innocent. I think someone with an ASD would find it hard to defend themselves if they were arrested for a crime. There are all kinds of social behavioural skills that they would probably lack. They may say things without realising the implication of it eg. if asked 'do you know Gill Dando', he might say 'yes I used to like to follow her'. But following does not equal murder. An NT adult might know to keep their mouth shut. But to a police squad that sounds like you are 99% on the right track and have your suspect.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Although obsessional behaviour is partly connected to AS, when it forces you to things you know are illegal, it has gone beyond normal AS special interests and become a clinical illness such as Obsessive Compulsive Disorder. It's possible that Gary McKinnon's AS put him at a higher risk of developing OCD, which led to him being unable to restrain himself from breaking the law. I don't know whether Gary McKinnon has OCD as well as AS.

 

But I also think that when someone has a condition which causes them to behave in ways that they know are illegal, they really have a responsibility to seek help to stop themselves from breaking the law. It is different if a person is suffering from a psychosis and genuinely cannot tell that what they are doing is wrong, but I don't think Gary McKinnon was suffering from quite this level of illness.

 

Hi Tally.I thought I would add my thoughts. :whistle:

I think that the amount of publicity that supporters of Gary Mckinnon have attempted to gain from talking about the ASD diagnosis if there was any diagnosis of OCD then someone would have been shoutting about it by now. :unsure::)

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Gary McKinnon I believe did what he did, because he found he could, he exposed the weak link in a so called advanced defence system, he in actual fact did the US government a service by his actions, as it proved one did not have to be a terrorist to threaten a country. Now I don't believe he was out to threaten or disrupt the US, but my thoughts are, once he had set himself the challenge of proving his expertise to himself, he then took on the greatest known challenge, the US. As to what he did on that computer system, is open to conjecture, as no way will the US speak the truth as to what was accessed and thoughts might be the call for extradition might be to in effect silence him from revealing what they don't want revealed. A particular interesing parallel with the I believe 1980's movie ; 'Wargames', a similar situation, a bedroom bound computer wizz seeing just how far he can test his computer skills and there hacking into the defence network. Notice how I use the word ' test ', for it is this that I believe Gary Mckinnon was doing, just as much as any other person might do in whatever field of expertise they have found themself good at. Who knows even, Gary Mckinnon might even have watched Wargames and gone what if at the end of it.

 

 

Yeah, so he has aspergers, then I can understand more why he did what he did, as with aspergers, one arrives at a theory beyond the thought of many, and with aspergers, it is common that we just have to prove it, right and wrong is then open to interpretation, as the need becomes great to prove to the self the possibility of a thing, just like so many hell bent fanatical inventors of the past, who have contributed massively to the comfort of our present society.

 

Gary Mckinnon did do a service, he exposed the weakness of the US defence system and I suspect the US wanting him within their borders, is more about embarrassment and stopping him revealing anything that might show the US government in a poor light, or even locking him away from potential interested parties who would like to exploit weak links, in the US.

 

But as to the British Government stance on this, to be perfectly frank, I am not really that surprised, as long it has been held that when the US says to Britain jump, Britain replies, how high sir, and can I do anything for you whilst doing that.. Thus indicating, our country does not look after and support it's citizens. The British Government was all too keen to hand him over, and might even have made itself excuses under the new pervertable anti terror laws that have been brought about.

 

But as reported Gary Mckinnon was aspergers, if so, was he diagnosed with the condition prior to the exposure, or after, whatever way, it would do well to understand the thinking of an ASD person before judgements are made, and was this guy supported with his condition, or I suppose not given his age, and just how many thousands or even millions of undiagnosed asd affected people there are out there. Those who have children who have been diagnosed at an early age and now struggle with their child's actions, please bear in mind the difficulties experienced by others out there who have not been made aware why it is they think different, or their thought pattern after the fact is found to be different, for we can all reflect after the fact, but not at the time.

 

Maybe the media is in effect correct in mentioning asd when reporting on people, for it is making people aware there are people in society who don't think the same, and with that, there will be others, other sectors of society who think in a different way even more and so on. Perhaps education of this sort will serve to make the interested and controlling bodies look more into what our make up actually is and there seek a way of reducing crime, who knows even, the crime rates might even be a direct result of various different thinking patterns as yet undiscovered. Perhaps the media would do well in exposing the natural unmalicious differences in the make up of our people, or at least set an interest in those that control to discover the truth and reality.

 

And at the end of all this, lets not forget the law as it is written, is also aspergic, it means different things to different people, there is no hard and fast definitive interpretation, it is why we need lawyers to navigate the law and interpret it in such a way it can be made to fit any circumstance.

 

And a last thought to discuss illegality of an activity, my thoughts just go to all those intellects of the past that have created what we take for granted today, people like Einstein, Nichola Tesla, Eddison and so on, great minds from the past, and minds that have come to benefit all or at least most of the world's population, their experiments worked, but what if they were wrong, and they harmed people, would they then be seen as criminals. There are plenty of scientists today, who are aware of the possible illegality of their theories, but they still push on, because it is a question that needs to answered, and if it is found out through their illegal activities thay actually create a benefit to mankind, would they then be seen as a criminal, or a hero. The recent Halon collider that failed, to me was a fear, I felt scientists were pushing that which in theory could go wrong to the detriment of all of us, but in theory would work, they took the route of finding out regardless of the thoughts of the rest of the world. If the thing had worked, it might have reaped rewards, conversely, it might have caused problems, they were simply doing what others have done in the past, taking a chance. Just how many other in theory might work, but might go catastrophicaly wrong experiments are being conducted in the world today, even hidden from governments, military and the masses.

Edited by Sa Skimrande

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

×
×
  • Create New...