Leviant's Enigma

[Bard]

I was on the sofa, cup of tea in hand and a book in the other, when B hurtled into the room, sat on my lap and shoved his head under my arm.

He dragged my other arm around him, and then pushed us both hard into the sofa. He was shuddering and terrified. Tea went on the floor.

I've got a large book of visual illusions, like Escher and co. B was apparently looking at it in his room. when he came across Leviant's Enigma. It's a relative motion illusion, radiating black and white rays with a yellow circle in the centre and 3 pairs of concentric rings; purple/navy blue, royal blue/turquoise and the inner ring is two shades of green.

After 10 mins, he said that the picture had come alive whilst he was watching it, started spinning in different directions. He could see spirits and ghosts and the bed he was on became unstable.

He was really scared and wanted me to go and get the book out of his room and destroy the picture.

 

Anyone else had a response as strong as this to abstract Pop-Art type illusions?

I've never seen him this afraid before, of anything whilst he's awake, it's reminiscent of the Night Terror attacks he had when younger.

[Mumble]

Hi Bard,

 

I hope B's feeling a little more settled now <'> . Firstly my experience - I had to look up which image you were talking about - I thought I knew but I wanted to check we were talking about the same thing. We were, unfortunately. This doesn't cause the reaction you decribe in B in me, but it causes a physical pain I can't properly describe around my eyes and makes me feel very disorientated. The rings spin in different directions (this is what is supposed to happen - quite frighteningly, it hasn't been discovered why this happens) and it would seem natural that if we see something spinning when our inner ear is sending messages to our brain that we are balanced and still, some confusion is going to erupt within the brain. I supposed it would be a similar effect to feeling dizzy when we stop spinning - the fluid in the ear takes times to equilibriate and doesn't concur with what the eyes are telling the brain about our lack of movement.

 

Visual perceptial distortions are well documented in ASDs - given that the only unaccounted thing in B's description are the spirits, it may be that these were some irregular light perception as a result of his brain adjusting to the inbalance.

 

Perhaps also, and this is totally my own theory with no basis other than my own experience, because many ASD individuals have less of a reaction to usual optical/visual illusions, see for instance this article, when they do have a reaction it is more severe because they are not used to their brain's response to someting it can't quite understand?

 

If what you see is what is, it can be very frightening when what you see can't logically be what is. I hope that makes some sense.

 

I would put the book somewhere well away (but make sure he's happy that it is well away) but don't destroy it - in many years he might want to come back to it, plus, if he's anything like me, he'll love the M. C. Escher works, and it would be a shame to destroy these.

 

Mumble

 

EDIT: Hmm, that link isn't working - I'll try and repair it.

EDIT 2: Tried to fix it - it might work, but it could be a subscription article so comes up on my computer but wouldn't work on the computers of non-subscribed users.

Edited July 19, 2007 by Mumble

[David Matthew Baker]

We can get the abstract but not the full article Mumble. You seem to have a lot of good links to various articles and sites though.

 

I take it this is the enigma your talking about (though in different colours): http://www.michaelbach.de/ot/mot_enigma/index.html

 

I hope B feels better now. I'm afraid I can't give any advice because I've not come across anything like this. Hopefully he'll get over it soon. <'> <'> <'>

[Bard]

Perhaps also, and this is totally my own theory with no basis other than my own experience, because many ASD individuals have less of a reaction to usual optical/visual illusions, see for instance this article, when they do have a reaction it is more severe because they are not used to their brain's response to someting it can't quite understand?

 

If what you see is what is, it can be very frightening when what you see can't logically be what is. I hope that makes some sense.

 

Thanks Mumble, that makes sense to me, as does B's reaction. He doesn't find new places or things much of an issue if I am with him, because I'm his safety net and interpreter.

Hence his terrified flight to his place of safety!

I can see the illusion spinning, but it's odd and amusing rather than painful or scary. I was hoping an AS adult might be able to explain what was happening in B's head and how he might be processing it, and you have.

It makes sense that seeing the impossible is harder to deal with for someone who sees what's actually there, and all of it at the same time. B seems to have difficulty prioritising what he sees, so needs time to stop and stare and interpret what he is seeing. Usually he's delighted by his ability to notice all details at once. I thought he'd explode with joy the first time I took him to York Minster on a sunny day.

B has seen illusions before, and he finds most of Escher weird and annoying rather than wonderful. He likes the negative space ones, and the dual images.

I've written the page number in the front of the book, paperclipped the pages together and put the book back on the shelf. His idea. B is happy that the page is identified and muzzled, but wants the opportunity to look at the other images in the book that he likes. When he feels that he wants to, in a few weeks...(that's the male, not the AS talking!)

Oh yes, he's fine now. The carpet is less so, and rather damp. Teach me to fill a pint mug with tea.

[Bard]

I take it this is the enigma your talking about (though in different colours): http://www.michaelbach.de/ot/mot_enigma/index.html

 

That's the one, but I'm not going to try it on B to check if the colours made a difference!

[David Matthew Baker]

No I wouldn't either. Just wasn't sure what it looked like when you first mentioned it. I hope he doesn't have any more problems related to this or any bad dreams tonight. <'>

 

EDIT: Looking at the centre lot of black and white lines my mind does overlay so weird shapes that are fairly static after a while of looking at it. End up with a sort of rough diamond shape that is about as visible as something in a magic eye book. Could probably jump from that to make it nearly a human sort shape. It is just a trick to do with the mind filling in details it thinks should be there though.

Edited July 19, 2007 by David Matthew Baker

[Mumble]

I thought he'd explode with joy the first time I took him to York Minster on a sunny day.

Well I haven't made it into either St Paul's or Westmister Abbey!

 

Now does B know anything about metal detecting? I'm fascinated by the Viking find on the news tonight and it's something I've always wanted to have a go at.

[Bard]

He's got a low powered one that he uses in the garden. Cost about �20.

He has, however, had a go at geophysical archaeology and got very excited about it, Cost about �3,000.

He watched the programme on Boudicca's treasures last night and was, as usual, enthralled.

[pearl]

Your lad sound lovely, bard

That picture made me feel queasy/migrainey, goodness knows what it did to him, poor thing.

Sounds like you found a good way to help him cope though.

[David Matthew Baker]

I can't manage to look at it very long. Makes my eyes tired very quickly. I guess it maybe because I'm getting tired too. Bard's son does sound great. Has a lot of really cool interests.

[Bard]

I can't manage to look at it very long. Makes my eyes tired very quickly. I guess it maybe because I'm getting tired too. Bard's son does sound great. Has a lot of really cool interests.

 

I like him. As Canopus wrote on another thread, it's a question of listening to him rather than assuming I always know best.

He's wonderful if you don't try and make him fit the mould of an NT child. Don't put him with other children, and he's a terrific boy who is good company and has a huge amount of physical stamina.

I have never known him bored, and that is so refreshing. He'd love school if it was just him and the teachers.

[Guest Lya of the Nox]

well i just got given the mechanics of the drawing and nothing else lol

love her

[Ian Jordan]

BE VERY CAREFUL WITH OPTICAL ILLUSIONS

 

THESE CAN CAUSE HALLUCINATIONS, EPILEPTIC SEIZURES OR SEVERE MIGRAINES

HEADACHES ARE COMMON, VESTIBULAR DISTURBANCES ARE EXPECTED AS ARE OTHER CROSS SENSORY EFFECTS

 

iF YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING THERE IS A SIGNIFICANT RISK FOR THOSE ON THE SPECTRUM!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

DO NOT LET YOUR CHILDREN LOOK AT HIGH CONTRAST PATTERNS FOR EXTENDED PERIODS - PLEASE

 

Mechanisms are believed to be cortical hyperstimulation, but i am coming to think that a mapping problem in the magnocellular pathways are causative

It would be a good idea if parents of those on the spectrum were given sufficient info on this area - it is complex but the basic principals can be understood in a couple of hours, it is one of the most important things you can learn about your child - it effects their lives so much - and causes so much distress, discomfort and confusion to those on the spectrum. Please make sure you understand principles - it just involves time spent- it will be well rewarded - probably more tha anything else you do for your child. A mornings presentation or a few hours in a library / internet will sort it

Edited July 20, 2007 by Ian Jordan

[Bard]

BE VERY CAREFUL WITH OPTICAL ILLUSIONS

 

THESE CAN CAUSE HALLUCINATIONS, EPILEPTIC SEIZURES OR SEVERE MIGRAINES

HEADACHES ARE COMMON, VESTIBULAR DISTURBANCES ARE EXPECTED AS ARE OTHER CROSS SENSORY EFFECTS

 

iF YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING THERE IS A SIGNIFICANT RISK FOR THOSE ON THE SPECTRUM!!!!!!!!!!!!

DO NOT LET YOUR CHILDREN LOOK AT HIGH CONTRAST PATTERNS FOR EXTENDED PERIODS - PLEASE

 

mechanisms are believed to be cortical hyperstimulation, but i am coming to think that a mappin problem in the magnocellular pathways are causative

 

Thank you for the warning, good thing we don't have any pop art posters!

I'll warn his school as he's doing extension classes in Art, and it's one of the areas Art teachers like to introduce children to.

I was aware of the lights/epilepsy/pattern/migraine links, but B has never been affected before by any of these stimulations. That said, he's 12 and still growing and changing, so I'll be more alert to the possibilities now.

Thanks.

Edited July 20, 2007 by Bard

[smiley]

Felt like i'd been flipped onto my head as soon as i looked at it! Very strange.

 

Thanks for the warning - i'll keep M well away from them!

[mrs.ddh]

I had a look at the Enigma and it made my head feel dizzy. The spiral lines spin! And within the purple spiral lines I saw shapes forming, like spectral figures. I still feel ill from looking at it.

 

Glad to hear your son is feeling better, Bard, and that the Enigma is well muzzled! (It should be!)

 

ddh

[marmalade]

It didn't do anything to me.

 

The circles spun a bit, but that was it.

 

Feel a bit left out, now

 

Mind you, I can't see the magic eye pictures. Ever.

 

Considering the reactions from other people here, I'm really rather glad...

[JsMum]

Wow how interesting is this thread and the experience that your son had with looking deeply into the picture, to me it sounds like he was himatised for a while as well, like a trance state, I have Dyslexia and I cant look at a lot of patterns and when I am having a conversation with someone and if behind them has a pattern then it distorts my vision, even this screen hurts my eyes at times and my vision is fine, but I know there is a condition called Visual Dyslexia where words move and anything line types wobble.

 

I know that I get frustrated with Art at times if a picture can make it have two or three dimensions within it.

 

It may be worth expressing this experience with the doctor that diagnosed him with ASD and if anything else happens again then I would look at some eye type tests, as the reaction really did cause your son a lot of destress.

JsMum

[baddad]

Ugh!!!

 

Made me feel queezy

 

So it somes in B&W, & Purple, & Yellow.... Are there other enigma variations?

 

If it effects your eyesight is that an enigmatism stigmatism?

 

I wonder if the stuff Ian mentioned is the reason Ben can't find 'Wally'??

 

Sorry, i'll get my coat....................

[David Matthew Baker]

I wonder if the stuff Ian mentioned is the reason Ben can't find 'Wally'??

 

He's still looking inside the book rather than outside it isn't he.

 

Last I checked he was in the vincinity of Durham after visiting Middlesbrough earlier. Certainly convinced a few more people I was one today anyway. Most couldn't understand why on the first day of my holidays I'd visit a school. Then I reminded them it was me they were talking about. They all enjoyed seeing me though.

[smiley]

Hmmm - i can never see those magic eye pictures - i was convinced my brother was winding me up when he kept saying 'Can't you see the Statue of Liberty???'

 

M at the opticians......

With those magic-eye-ish-thingies..... (looking for colour blindness)

Got into an argument with the optician - he was very clear that it was infact a stegasaurus...... optician said it was T-rex.... 'Goodness mummy, for someone so clever - he's a bit daft......'

I laughed so much i couldn't breathe......