More new starter problems

[Tally]

I've fallen out with another new starter. He was meant to be taking a year out before going to university, but he's told everyone different stories about whether he's going to uni this year or next year.

 

He kept wandering out to the warehouse with odd bits and pieces, so I told him to just put it on the trolley and stop wasting time wandering around. He does know this after 2 months, and he had also just completely disappeared for about 20 minutes for no reason, so I don't feel I did anything wrong at all by being sharp with him. He rolled his eyes and said, "oh for god's sake."

 

I asked, "how are you ever going to learn anything if we're not allowed to tell you things?"

 

He said, "I am so glad I am leaving in two weeks."

 

I said, "oh, are you going to university then?"

 

He replied, "yeah. I am not wasting my life here."

 

I said, "you're no better than any of us. You won't make any friends at university if you think you're better than everyone else. It's about time you pulled your head out from up your (bottom)"

 

He said, "I'll be fine."

 

I said, "well, it seems a bit of a waste of time to be, considering you already think you know everything."

 

He shut up then.

 

What an ignorant little turd.

He won't talk to any of us. At first I wondered if he was a bit of an aspie, but it quickly became apparent he simply did not want to waste the time of day talking to us worthless supermarket workers. What he said last night just proves that.

 

Where do they get these people from?

 

I hope he really is leaving in two weeks.

[bid]

Sorry, Tally, but going by what you have written you could have come across as being quite rude to this guy

 

(Only my opinion, and thinking about how I try to interact with other people where I work.)

 

Bid

Edited August 7, 2008 by bid

[pearl]

I think you have had a run of bad luck with new starters Tally, and this one sounds like another idiot, but I'm inclined to agree with bid. However annoyed you feel, if you are anything other than professional & neutral in your dealings with him, then you lower yourself to his level & also open yourself up to complaints.

 

I'd avoid him if he might be leaving anyway in a couple of weeks. If he stays its a different matter.

 

Not having a go <'> we've all been there.

[Mumble]

*Opens stocks, places head in, attaches feet to rack for added effect*

 

I have to agree with Bid, and was going to write this before reading her response. I think you were rude to this person (regardless of how he spoke to you) and your coming back at him repeatedly will have aggravated him further.

 

What others do in their job, how well they do it, and their standards, will always be different - can you not just ignore them and do your own job?

 

And speaking as someone at university, I find the assumption that people at university are above, or think they are above, others quite patronising and I would suggest that perhaps you need to look at why you think this about them? I worked in supermarkets and various other retail positions before, and during the holidays of, university so that I could afford to go. I didn't think I was above others (and I don't now) but I was doing it as a means to an end, i.e. to raise the money I needed to study, and yes I counted down to the time I would be out of there because I certainly didn't get anything else out of it. Sorry if you find that insulting, but wanting to better myself is not the same as looking down on others.

[bid]

However annoyed you feel, if you are anything other than professional & neutral in your dealings with him, then you lower yourself to his level & also open yourself up to complaints.

 

This is a very, very good point...we all need to be extremely careful how we speak to colleagues

 

Bid

Edited August 8, 2008 by bid

[pearl]

And speaking as someone at university, I find the assumption that people at university are above, or think they are above, others quite patronising and I would suggest that perhaps you need to look at why you think this about them?

 

Umm, weeeeell, I think his comment about "wasting his life here" was enough to rile anyone Mumble. Unfortunately for every student happy to do whatever is necessary to pay the bills, there is always the odd one who does indeed think it is beneath him. Tally was just talking about him, not students in general.

 

And, fwiw, my holiday jobs taught me soooo much about life - I would never think of them of a waste of time as this guy clearly thinks. I was served at the checkout by a student in T*sc* today - she was fab! Hope you get more like her, Tally.

[Mumble]

Umm, weeeeell, I think his comment about "wasting his life here" was enough to rile anyone Mumble. Unfortunately for every student happy to do whatever is necessary to pay the bills, there is always the odd one who does indeed think it is beneath him. Tally was just talking about him, not students in general.

Point taken based on this thread. I was letting other things said elsewhere about uni students (and myself) thinking they are above others get to me - apologies.

 

Did I learn anything in my holiday jobs? - Yep, I learnt that you don't always have to go to the back of the shelf for longer date items because lots of fillers will just shove the new stuff at the front when no-one's watching them Makes shopping sooo much easier and quicker :lol: Oh, and I learnt how to tell if frozen peas have been badly handled/stored and therefore shouldn't be bought - not that I ever buy frozen peas anyway

[bid]

Umm, weeeeell, I think his comment about "wasting his life here" was enough to rile anyone Mumble. Unfortunately for every student happy to do whatever is necessary to pay the bills, there is always the odd one who does indeed think it is beneath him. Tally was just talking about him, not students in general.

 

And, fwiw, my holiday jobs taught me soooo much about life - I would never think of them of a waste of time as this guy clearly thinks. I was served at the checkout by a student in T*sc* today - she was fab! Hope you get more like her, Tally.

 

Obviously none of us can know exactly what went on as we weren't there, but just maybe he reacted to Tally's attitude towards him?

 

Bid

[Tally]

I know I was rude, but I do not think I was unjustified in any way. He was being an idiot and claiming to be superior. When he first came in I asked him to fill the promotional products, but he only filled the promotional displays and would not come near me to fill the shelf. When I said, "don't forget the section," he grunted a bit, but did not fill the shelf anyway. He was listening to his MP3 player while working with another person, which is plain rude. He wandered off for twenty minutes without a word of explanation and repeatedly wandered off for five minutes or more, wasting time by taking handfuls of stuff out to the warehouse when he should have loaded it all onto a trolley to take out all in one go. After two months, he has no excuse for not knowing that we use the trolleys, which is why I reminded him in a less than fluffy manner. He did not respond with any possible way in which I was allowed to explain how he is supposed to do the job, except to say that he didn't even need to know since he is leaving in two weeks.

 

He has never said a word to anyone in the two months he was working there apart from the occasional grunt. He won't even ask a question if he can't find something, just hides it in the warehouse. I tried to encourage people not to think negatively about him, saying, "maybe he just doesn't know what to say." I tried to be friendly with him, but after two months I lost my patience with the way he was wasting time.

 

My attitude to him was bad. After two months of trying to see good in him, he showed me there was none. I think that would cause most people to have a bad attitude. It's quite possible he responded to my attitude, but my attitude was triggered by his laziness and rudeness.

 

I think he is a horrible little boy and I hope he gets a terrible shock on Thursday and finds he can't go to university after all.

[Flora]

This quote would have got most people's backs up.

 

yeah. I am not wasting my life here

 

I know someone who was stacking shelfes on nights in a supermarket to see him through university. He was quite disparaging about the job and the people who worked there and I must confess to being quite disgusted at his snobby attitude. It may have been a stop gap for him, but the other people he worked with it was their job, the one that put a roof over their heads and paid the bills.

 

Tally, maybe the others have made a valid point about being rude etc, but I think anyone encountering the attitude of this young man would feel varying degrees of p'd offness! If I was working with him I'd probably have told him to sod off!

 

Flo'

[Tally]

I have complained over and over again that I can't cope with being responsible for other people, to the point where I have now alienated the entire senior management team and my department manager. I have to work twice as hard when I get stuck with people who wander off for extended periods of time otherwise I get told off for not doing it properly. As the experienced member of staff, any mistakes are my fault because I should have pointed them out. How can you point them out to someone who responds by rolling his eyes and saying, "oh for god's sake," and why should I be subjected to that?

 

Last night I got to work just as the Store manager was about to leave. He put his key in the door, looked up, looked me square in the face and locked the door. Then he hid behind the customer service desk while he waited for the night manager to come so he could hand over the keys and go home. I was around 12 feet from the door when he locked it. Letting me in would have delayed him by around five seconds. I am fighting so hard to keep my job, which is the key to my independence, and it turns out I am fighting for having the door locked in my face, on my birthday of all days.

 

This is how popular I have made myself by asking for help, so I have no choice but to handle these people by myself. If someone tells me I am wasting my life, I have a right to defend myself. I know I was rude, but this boy has spent two months being rude (and lazy), and finally revealed the reason why. He feels he is superior because he plans to do something I also plan to do. He has made a negative judgement about me because I do a job he is also doing.

[pearl]

Tally, its never ok to be rude to someone, but I can see you are at the end of your tether with this situation so there are mitigating circumstances. You are not being supported at work & its all getting too much. I dont have any easy answers, but just wanted to give you a <'> & hope you are feeling better tomorrow.

[bid]

Tally, the problem is that in a working environment you have to be polite to everyone you work with.

 

I'm a Team Leader, and I can't be rude to anyone on my team. Even if I have to explain to one of my team that they have done something wrong, I have to do it in a way that isn't rude or aggressive.

 

If this is all getting very stressful for you, can you just keep out of his way and avoid talking to him? That way, at least you can't get into trouble for being rude to him.

 

Bid <'>

[Flora]

Hi biddles

 

I agree with everything you said, in theory. But it's very situational don't you think? You work in a very controlled environment and have people directly in your care. Tally works in relative isolation and was subject, imo, to real provocation from this guy. He really did overstep the line, and I think she was quite justified in taking a metaphorical swipe back.

 

You are right though in saying that perhaps in future to just ignore and keep the head down, in order to avoid any future conflict. All the same it doesn't make for a happy work place thought does it?

 

Flozza xx

[bid]

But the real problem, Floz, is that however justified Tally may be in her reaction, within a working environment she could well find herself reprimanded for being rude and aggressive if this chap chose to make a complaint

 

Bid

[Flora]

You're very likely right bid. I know two wrongs don't make a right but the same could be said for the young man couldn't it? If Tally chose to make a complaint about him that is.

 

Maybe this has touched on a raw nerve, having been at the receiving end of work place bullying in the past Nobody's problem but my own You know me, I'm a stickler for fair play and politeness, but also know that in the heat of the moment these principles can end up taking a back seat.

 

Floz x

[Tally]

I don't think any complaint he makes is likely to be taken seriously if he first has to check that the manager he complains to is adequately qualified for his liking. Since his only form of communication is grunts and abuse, he will have difficulty communicating his complaint anyway.

 

I have no training in training people. They have no record that I have been trained in polite ways to point out that it is not part of the job to repeatedly wander off for up to five minutes at a time, and once for twenty minutes. They have no record that I have been trained in polite ways to respond to people who roll their eyes and say, "for god's sake," or to accusations that I am wasting my life. Only after that can prove that I have training in these areas, can they take disciplinary action. With the people they keep employing, it would probably come in really handy to have this kind of training.

 

If I don't tell him anything, I get into trouble every day because the managers can see that things are not done properly. It is clear and easy to define when something is not done properly, so that means definite trouble. Talking to him means possible trouble, but it is highly unlikely he will make a complaint.

 

It would be completely different if I was in a senior position. He might have more respect when I told him how we are supposed to do things. If he refused, instead of having to do it myself, I could have taken proper, documented disciplinary action. I could grin inanely and say, "now dear, please sign this final written warning," but I don't get that option.

 

If anyone can tell me a polite way to say that I find it extremely selfish when a person causes me extra work by doing a shoddy job and wandering off all the time, I would like to try it out.

[bid]

Well, 'Please don't wander off' might be an easy start...just keep things simple and brief.

 

I think you need to make this less personal, IYSWIM.

 

I do know this isn't easy, as I had huge problems with a new member of my team last year. But I knew I had to be scrupulous about not being rude back to them, and when it ended up with senior management involved it was clear to everyone that there was no blame on my part, while the other person had just dug a big hole for themselves by their rudeness and aggressive attitude. If I had been rude back to this person, senior management would probably have just dismissed the situation as two adults bickering like kids.

 

Good luck <'>

 

Bid

[Tally]

Well, I managed to send him off on his own last night, so I can't take the blame for the things he didn't do. He complained to the night manager that he needed help, and the manager told him to ask me to help him, but he never did. I only found out about this when the manager asked me why I didn't go and help! He ended up with stuff all over the place and kept bringing more and more out. I had to tell him to work what he had and get it back in the fridge. He was stroppy about it, but he did eventually start putting things away again, but he kept sighing and crashing into my stuff when he walked past. The problem is that he keeps going to the night manager for instructions, and he has no idea what we do. He gives him instructions which are sensible based on the half-story he is getting from the new boy, but are actually completely the wrong thing. Then when you tell him the right way he tells you you are wrong.

[Mumble]

I don't think any complaint he makes is likely to be taken seriously if he first has to check that the manager he complains to is adequately qualified for his liking. Since his only form of communication is grunts and abuse, he will have difficulty communicating his complaint anyway.

Tally2, I just wonder if this highligths the difficulties you have in how you feel about him (regardless of how he has spoken to you/not done things as you want them done) in terms of superiority etc. He clearly hasn't said this; it's an assumption you have made based on your encounters with him which have been extrapolated to others. If there are people who I don't like or who irritate me in person I tend to just keep away from them/be non-commital - maybe you could try that?

[alanm]

I have complained over and over again that I can't cope with being responsible for other people, to the point where I have now alienated the entire senior management team and my department manager.

Surely they are disability discriminating you here. I'm sure you'd said on another thread that they knew you had Aspergers, by rights they should take the said "responsibility for other people" out of your role by way of making a "Reasonable Adjustment" to your role in reflection of the disability that you have declared to them.

 

Best of luck

 

Alan <'>

[bid]

This seems like a good point, Tally!

 

Bid

[Tally]

I don't think my belief that he feels superior indicates any kind of "difficulty" with my feelings. His has said that he is not wasting his life by working in a supermarket, which quite clearly implies that he feels superior to those who do work in supermarkets. This is not some kind of twisted inference I have made because I have difficulties with my feelings. I can't see any way to interpret this comment as friendliness or anything else positive. He was trying to say that he is better than everyone else.

 

There is no way I can be isolated from new starters. At the moment we only have one new starter, who has two days off a week. If the next new starter has different days off, there will be no shifts available to me at all. It is not fair on the new starter if I refuse to answer their questions, because they will end up feeling like they have done a bad thing by asking me. I'm less worried they will think I hate them, as trying to be positive and friendly has had that effect so far anyway. Whenever we have a new starter I always say to myself that I am just going to stay out of the way, but when they ask me a question or if they have done something OK, I feel like I will upset them if I refuse to answer.

[Bard]

One of the other websites that I use is a parenting one, and some of the whinges that parents make about their teens are real eye-openers.

They complain about rudeness, using the house like a hotel, being sworn at, treated like servants. Teenagers who eat everything in sight and fight with the younger children. Returning home drunk and noisy in the early hours of the morning.

And how do the parents solve the problem?

Whinging.

Many of them state that they can't wait to see the back of them when they return to Uni.

It amazes me that parents tolerate that sort of behaviour in a child, let alone an adult.

 

So Tally, you may be working with one of them. If he makes it to Uni, it will be a real learning curve for him. He sounds like a rather spoilt, rude boy who has never had to hold down a job other than part-time for pocket money.

Try not to take it too personally. I often think that when dealing with a stroppy child at work. It could be worse, we could be related. Grit your teeth and think of him living on baked beans and cold porridge, and being busted for not having a TV licence.

Think it, don't say it.

[Mumble]

His has said that he is not wasting his life by working in a supermarket, which quite clearly implies that he feels superior to those who do work in supermarkets. This is not some kind of twisted inference I have made because I have difficulties with my feelings. I can't see any way to interpret this comment as friendliness or anything else positive. He was trying to say that he is better than everyone else.

I have never said it is a positive or friendly comment - please don't try to add to what I have said - however, I do think you may be making a jump between his comment and your interpretation. Saying that he is wasting his life there does not necessarily indicate that he feels Superior to you or to anyone working in supermarkets - it could be that he has aspirations beyond that that he wants to fulfill for his own sake or for his own personal reasons - he may not have said that clearly but I do think it is an over-inference to say that he was saying he was superior to others. I, for very personal reasons, have a need to prove to myself as much as to anyone else that I can do the degree I am currently doing; that doesn't in anyway imply that I think I am superior to people not doing it - that would be a completely wild misinterpretation bringing other people into a decision that is about me. Is someone who says, "Oh I'm not gong to waste my life dusting" and either decides not to dust or to employ a cleaner saying they are superior to people who do dust? Is someone who says, "oh I'm not wasting my time cooking meals with fresh ingredients" and instead chooses convenience foods saying they are superior to people who do cook? I'm not trying to be flippant, I'm just trying to demonstrate what I see as a difference between a person saying they don't want to do something and your interpretation that that means they think they are superior to others.

[Tally]

I have not added to what you said. You suggested that there was an alternative explanation for what he said, and that assuming he meant something bad highlighted problems with my feelings. However, I wish to defend myself against the suggestion that my inferences indicate a mental problem.

 

He didn't just say he didn't want to work in a supermarket, he said that he did not intend to waste his life working in a supermarket, to someone he knows works in a supermarket. I don't think it is indicative of mental illness to infer that he feels I am wasting my life.

 

If he'd have turned round and said, "yeah, I hate the job and I intend to waste as much time as possible avoiding it," I would have just thought he was lazy.

 

I am disappointed in him because people kept telling me he was too up himself to talk to us or do the same work. I felt they were judging him unfairly, and tried to challenge their quick judgments, saying, "maybe he's just shy." NT intuition is sometimes accurate, and after the way he spoke to me, I now believe their intuition was right.

 

If you said to someone who is a cleaner for their job, "I'm not going to waste my time dusting," then I think it would be safe to infer that you felt superior to people who did. It really depends on the context. There are times that a comment like that could be used as a put-down.

[Mumble]

However, I wish to defend myself against the suggestion that my inferences indicate a mental problem.

 

I don't think it is indicative of mental illness to infer that he feels I am wasting my life.

 

Please could you quote the sections of my posts where I have said you have a mental problem/illness as I cannot find them and find the idea that I would make such an accusation about anyone on an open forum highly insulting. As a moderator I would expect you to be more neutral than this.

[Tally]

Other people have made criticisms. I feel defensive about them, because I was initially proud of getting one up on someone who was trying to put me down. They weren't having a go in the same way, they were just trying to show me another way.

 

I tried to be neutral about this and acknowledge that I had upset you too, but you were not interested enough to ask then, and chose to carry on making it worse. Moderators are not open to attack any more than other members.

 

These are the quotes that imply that not liking someone who suggests that I am wasting my life is indicative of a mental problem:

I would suggest that perhaps you need to look at why you think this about them?

difficulties you have in how you feel about him

[baddad]

Hi all

 

Mumble - I agree with Tally that someone who says 'I'm not going to waste my life doing THIS to someone who is doing THIS as a career rather than a stop-gap is being rude, arrogant, superior and nasty... I don't see within your responses any indication that you think Tally is 'mentally ill', but I do think tally (from the description given here) has a legitimate greivance with her work colleague and i don't personally see any indication of a 'chip' on her shoulder which - however inadvertant - is what your comments seem to suggest....

There's a saying 'life's too short for stuffed mushrooms'. Using that as a casual comment to desribe a 'no-nonsense' approach to life is perfectly reasonable. Saying that to someone who works (for whatever reason) as a mushroom stuffer is downright bl00dy rude. It's a question of context, and in this context - a new member of staff who's filling in and doesn't really have any sort of relationship with his co-workers - it smacks of one-upmanship.

One of your own threads tonight detailed a situation where you questioned someone's motives in 'teasing' you - Given that this was an established relationship where you trusted the other party and you still questioned their motives and felt hurt, I'm sure you can appreciate Tally's distress regarding a relative stranger(?)

 

 

On the question of moderator 'neutrality'... I really feel that the point needs to be made that moderators are members too, and have opinions and perspectives that they are equally entitled to express. If moderators have to 'give up' the very things that they came to this forum for in order to moderate it i think we'd be hard pushed to recruit anyone to the position... That suggestion seems doubly inappropriate in a thread which the moderator herself has started seeking advice, comment and support

 

Edited August 15, 2008 by baddad