Playing with poo....

[tobyjoemum]

Hi

 

Hope someone out there can help or advise. My son - age 7 - was diagnosed with aspergers when he was 5. He has always had a problem with soiling his pants. I think this is stress related for him as it can get better and worse depending on how is dealing with things at school. I have noticed in the last few months, however, that he has started to 'play' with poo. This takes the form of either being smeared on the wall next to the toilet or wiped on his bed sheet under his pillow. When questioned he just says "Oh....poo. I wonder how that got there?"

I'm trying not to make a big deal of it, but it is starting to upset me and I worry about the health implications for him and all of us.

 

I would be grateful for any help.

 

Regards

 

Vikki

[chris54]

Had that one, Mainly in the bath.

Cant really say what to do. I just said something like I didnt like it, showed my disapproval.

After a while it stopped.

[NobbyNobbs]

my suggestions would be

1 - be very clear you know exactly how the poo got there, and that its disgusting, harsh words need to be used because of the germ problems

2 - get him some rubber gloves and have him help clean it up, he's already exposed himself to the germs putting it there so the risks are minor

3 - get him playing with play-doh and finger painting (if he wants the feeling of the poo or the smearing action it might help)

[Karen A]

my suggestions would be

1 - be very clear you know exactly how the poo got there, and that its disgusting, harsh words need to be used because of the germ problems

2 - get him some rubber gloves and have him help clean it up, he's already exposed himself to the germs putting it there so the risks are minor

3 - get him playing with play-doh and finger painting (if he wants the feeling of the poo or the smearing action it might help)

 

I must disagree strongly with you on 1 and 2.

Harsh words will not help a child with AS understand or manage smeering.It is well known that acting in a way that makes a child feel bad about bodily functions is likely to increase the chances of anxiety.Anxiety is known to create a cycle of holding onto stools which will lead to serious constipation.Any one who has ever needed to sort out severe constipation [known as faecal impaction] where there is then leakeage and severe discomfort will say this is a very bad option.I think the advice is to be as cool and matter of fact as you can whilst giving minimal attention.....know that is easy to sauy.

2 Making a child with AS clear up smeering does not prevent further episodes.It may even reinforce the behaviour.....it is like encouragening the child to remain involved in smeering and giving lots of attention.If contact with poo was unpleasant the child would not be playing with it in the first place.

Unless you are a much more saintly individual than myself....[.and I worked as a nurse in a ward with psychogeriatric patients as a nurse where this job was pat of the daily work] it is almost impossible to remain unangry whilst attempting to encourage a child to clean up in the way you describe.The resulting parental anger is not healthy to the relationship at all.

 

We never had smeering but did have difficultiies with soiling.We found one thing that helped was to establish a regular routine....same time each day.It would be worth having a talk with the GP to ensure that constipation is not an issue.He/she may suggest laxatives for a short time until a more regular pattern is established.

Edited November 17, 2008 by Karen A

[Karen A]

Hi

 

Hope someone out there can help or advise. My son - age 7 - was diagnosed with aspergers when he was 5. He has always had a problem with soiling his pants. I think this is stress related for him as it can get better and worse depending on how is dealing with things at school. I have noticed in the last few months, however, that he has started to 'play' with poo. This takes the form of either being smeared on the wall next to the toilet or wiped on his bed sheet under his pillow. When questioned he just says "Oh....poo. I wonder how that got there?"

I'm trying not to make a big deal of it, but it is starting to upset me and I worry about the health implications for him and all of us.

 

I would be grateful for any help.

 

Regards

 

Vikki

 

Hi Vikki.If you think the soiling may be stress related it might also be worth attempting to find out what is causing the stress.Are there stresses at school that could be sorted out or support provided.It is woth looking at the factors going on behind the soiling as if they can be remedied it may help.Are school expecting DS to be more grown up now for example or do they allow less trips to the toilet during class time now that DS is older.....just some things worth investigating.Karen.

 

[NobbyNobbs]

I must disagree stronly with you on 1 and 2.

.Any one who has ever needed to sort out severe constipation [known as faecal impaction] where there is then leakeage and severe discomfort will say this is a very bad option.I think the advice is to be as cool and matter of fact as you can whilst giving minimal attention.....know that is easy to sauy.

i have dealt with it.

i didn't say tell him poo is disgusting, it was the act of smearing it on the walls and bed. poo goes in toilets, simple as that. i find it odd that you say that by acknowledging it it will encourage him. if you ignore a problem, how can a child know it is wrong and choose not to do it? hiding behind the chance of something else happening doesn't get anything anywhere. being clear that poo is perfectly natural, but there are places it belongs, and places it doesn't wont cause a phobia of pooing. i can understand not getting excited and jumping up and down screaming, but a calm reasoned conversation is better than silence, at least in my experience

 

Unless you are a much more saintly individual than myself....[.and I worked as a nurse in a ward with psychogeriatric patients as a nurse where this job was pat of the daily work] it is almost impossible to remain unangry whilst attempting to encourage a child to clean up in the way you describe.The resulting parental anger is not healthy to the relationship at all.

we tried the ignoring and not reacting tactic. (6 and 7 year old girls, both not toilet trained, the younger ASD, soiling, smearing, constipation)18 months later we were nowhere and realised that being nice was doing nothing but making us resent having to clean up their mess all the time. we started talking about bodily functions a lot more, explaining the processes and making it less of a taboo. if the younger smeared, we asked her to help clean it up so the area was nice for other people to use. the cleaning was to show that her smearing was taking up time, and that if she continued to smear she would lose some free time. all punishments in our house are linked to the thing they are being punished for and we dont take objects away, we take time to use them. a few months on she had stopped smearing and only soiled when constipated and 'exploded' (unrelated dietary problems). the only negative side-effect we got was that we were getting some lovely descriptions about the kind of poo she'd done in the toilet!

 

 

obviously what works for one child doesn't work for all, i was simply offering my suggestions based on my experience in the hope that something might help.

 

 

[Mookamoo]

Quote > 3 - get him playing with play-doh and finger painting (if he wants the feeling of the poo or the smearing action it might help)

 

This would help if its a sensory thing - they might just like the feel of poo.

 

You could also try what we call the 'Bowl of complete yuckyness'. It is a large bowl of cooked spaghetti, a pack of oats, raw jelly cubes and if you want, food colouring - then add enough water to cover the top. Pretty cheap to put together and when together it resembles the intestines of an animal or something equally horrible.

 

Hide things in for them to find and they will spend hours (if they want to) squeezing it through their fingers.

 

Might just get something out of their system that they need to (pardon the pun....)

[Karen A]

Hi Nobbynobbs.I will quote what you wrote ''be very clear you know exactly how the poo got there, and that its disgusting, harsh words need to be used because of the germ problems ''.

''Harsh words'' and ''its disgusting''are the words you used in the post.That was what I was responding to.Natural bodily functions are not disgusting.....calling them disgusting is exactly what does cause a phobia.Inapropriate place or unhelpful yes....I did not say to pretend it is fine....but disgusting is inapropriate language.

We don't use punishment in our house with any of our children....AS or not.Personal opinion.Karen.

[NobbyNobbs]

"...you know how the poo got there" (the act of smearing) "it's disgusting" (still the act of smearing)

smearing poo is disgusting so why pretend otherwise? i understand why its done, i know that often they can't help it, but its still not something that 'yucky' really touches... and evidently as a negative that would also cause phobia.

smearing is not a natural bodily function...

perhaps we're a tough family, but then again we're not just dealing with normal children with limited problems. on top of smearing we're stopping 6 year olds simulating sex and extreme violence, while trying to correct the problems associated with emotional and physical abuse. we have to be clear with them exactly where they stand and if you dont talk about something, how can they understand why they shouldn't be doing something and stop it?

i felt that since i had experience dealing with the problem successfully i would share my ideas, but evidently what i'm suggesting will doom children to never being able to poo again so i'll give up here

[Kathryn]

Nobby and Karen, please don't let this descend into a personal argument. The opening poster is asking for help - please help keep the thread on topic.

 

It's clear you both have extensive experience of poo (!) and have dealt with the issue successfully in different ways - and as we all know, what works for one child won't necessarily work for another.

 

I hope you find a solution to this, Vikki.

 

K x

[Karen A]

Nobby and Karen, please don't let this descend into a personal argument. The opening poster is asking for help - please help keep the thread on topic.

 

It's clear you both have extensive experience of poo (!) and have dealt with the issue successfully in different ways - and as we all know, what works for one child won't necessarily work for another.

 

I hope you find a solution to this, Vikki.

 

K x

 

I am very sorry Nobby,Kathryn and anyone else that I managed to offend.

I am not doing at all well at maintainig my usual perspective and reasonable manner at the momment.

I appear to be wading through my life looking for people to argue with.

It is unfair that some unfortunate individual gets the brunt of it.

I will attempt to stand back.

I should know better than to cause problems here by ranting around upsetting people and making work for the very mods I was defending on Saturday.Karen.

Edited November 18, 2008 by Karen A

[Karen A]

Having read through the thread again I have now posted a response elsewhere.

I am extrememely sorry to anyone that I may have offended last night.Karen.

[chris54]

I'm sorry that this has all got a pit personal.

 

Every one is entitled to express their ideas and I know that they will not always be accepted with 100% agreement.

 

But please don't take anything that any one said on here as a personal attack on yourselfs. As most of us only know each over from this forum, how can it be.

 

That my preaching out of the way.

 

Back to the subject.

 

When your bathroom has just been redecorated a nice shade of yuk It is very hard to keep your composure and do thing by the book. All I know is I could do little else than show my disapproval and say how horrible it was.

 

I have no idea what it was all about, but it stopped after a few months, I suppose there were about 10 instances.

Edited November 18, 2008 by chris54

[Kathryn]

Karen, you did not offend me, and neither has anyone else on this thread. My comment was just intended as a general reminder to keep the thread on track.

 

Now back to the subject of poo...

 

K x

[Karen A]

Posted on wrong thread.Karen.

Edited November 18, 2008 by Karen A

[tobyjoemum]

Thank you to ALL that have taken the time to reply to my plea for help and advice. I value all opinions and as someone said - each child is different and will respond to different approaches. I'm sorry the topic started a little 'discussion' but I think I have got a lot out of it!

 

The stresses my sons has at school are mainly ones he has brought into his head himself, although one is a boy that particularly upsets him. They are kept apart as much as possible, but it is not always easy. He was seen by a paediatrician and I was told he has constipation (I found it hard to believe) and he has lactolose every night. Sometimes it helps with the accidents in his pants, sometimes it doesn't. I tend to think that he does not want to miss out on what is going on, and so 'puts off going' until it is too late and does it in his pants . I have tried telling him that the toilet is more important but not much luck there. Even having an incentive, like playing his favourite computer game, if he is clean all day doesn't seem to work.

 

As the playing with poo is fairly recent, i can't say I have tried all the possible answers yet. I have let him know that I find it horrible to find poo on the wall and that germs could make him poorly. I have been both calm and very angry with him - neither make any difference to him!

 

I will try the sensory play that was suggested. Perhaps he does like the feel of it and play dough might give him a fix.

 

Most of all I'm glad to hear I'm not the only having to put up with poo on wrong places!!

 

Many thanks

 

Vikki

[Karen A]

Thank you to ALL that have taken the time to reply to my plea for help and advice. I value all opinions and as someone said - each child is different and will respond to different approaches. I'm sorry the topic started a little 'discussion' but I think I have got a lot out of it!

 

The stresses my sons has at school are mainly ones he has brought into his head himself, although one is a boy that particularly upsets him. They are kept apart as much as possible, but it is not always easy. He was seen by a paediatrician and I was told he has constipation (I found it hard to believe) and he has lactolose every night. Sometimes it helps with the accidents in his pants, sometimes it doesn't. I tend to think that he does not want to miss out on what is going on, and so 'puts off going' until it is too late and does it in his pants . I have tried telling him that the toilet is more important but not much luck there. Even having an incentive, like playing his favourite computer game, if he is clean all day doesn't seem to work.

 

As the playing with poo is fairly recent, i can't say I have tried all the possible answers yet. I have let him know that I find it horrible to find poo on the wall and that germs could make him poorly. I have been both calm and very angry with him - neither make any difference to him!

 

I will try the sensory play that was suggested. Perhaps he does like the feel of it and play dough might give him a fix.

 

Most of all I'm glad to hear I'm not the only having to put up with poo on wrong places!!

 

Many thanks

 

Vikki

 

Hi.I am very sorry that I managed to completely take your thread off topic.

Please do stick around.Lots of people on the Forum have experience of this issue.I am sure some of them will offer you some great advice.I did not want you to be left with the thread having messed it up.There are some great people here.Karen.

 

[jlp]

I've been dealing with poo for the last few years (and smearing). At first we were very cross but since ds#2 was about 3 I've tried very hard not to show a reaction and just cleaned it up.

 

Ds#2 (5) usually poos in the bath then throws it across the bathroom where it ends up on the wall and floor - he may be aiming at the toilet but if so his aim's not very good!

 

We've just been to a bowel management clinic where he was diagnosed with severe constipation and prescribed movicol (they said lactulose was rubbish, he'd been on it two years!), he had high doses for a 'clear out' over half term and is now on a maintainance dose.

 

We've had a few poos on the toilet (although he will NOT wipe and it's a struggle to get him clean) but still frequent poos in the bath. If I put him in the shower he poos there. If I don't put him in the bath or shower he may go to the toilet or will soil himself. Even if he's just been before the bath he often still poos in the bath!

 

At the hospital we were told any poo is 'good' and not to worry where it comes out for now, as him withholding it may cause further constipation problems. While I can accept a poo in the bath, I do internally resent cleaning it up off the walls and carpet. I've asked him to tell me if he has a poo in the bath (no luck with him telling me before he poos!) and not to try and put it in the toilet for me....assuming the best possible intention here, I'm not totally convinced he is actually trying to put it in the toilet!

 

I have no answers for you but thought I'd share our experience and sympathies. Poo is not nice and day in day out it wears you down.

 

I'm not sure if the soiling is a behavioural problem or a medical one or a bit of both.

[joybed]

My son has always had problems with his bowels and has tried every laxative on the market. We have had to put up with some really bad times where he would soil in bed and be totally unaware of this so it would be in his hair sheets and all over his body. We all found this very difficult to cope with and at times it was hard to stay patient in the early hours when you were bathing a distraught child who had been woken as he was unaware what had happened and washing sheets, PJs etc. This went on till he was about 7 and then thankfully stopped once his medication was sorted out. We still have occasional soiled pants and I need to increase his meds at these times i have become good at manging this now. So good i managed to stop the same situation occuring in my daughter when she started soiling when she started school.

We had a different problem to you last night Marcus is so scared of touching poo he uses loads of toilet paper so he has no chance of his finger going through it. Last night he used a full roll and blocked the toilet. I too found it difficult to contain my displeasure and made him stay with me and help while i unblocked the toilet (which took over an hour). He is now rationed as to how much paper he is allowed and has been told if it happens again he will lose his pocket money and if a plumber is needed he will pay for that too. This may sound harsh but it is not the first time i have had to do this and he though tthe incident was funny so had to do something to make him understand, good job i have a strong stomach.