I have an idea....

[kerryt84]

I have written before that I find it very hard being a teacher and that I would love to find a new job/career that I would be able to cope with.

 

It has been bothering me a lot recently that girls with aspergers seem to be quite misunderstood and often are not diagnosed because they present a lot differently to boys. In all the schools I have taught in though I have seen girls who I'm sure have aspergers, and quite worryingly I have seen many teachers who show classic signs of it too. In the school I work in now there are 2 teachers who I am 99% certain have it. I believe the statistics of how many girls have it are hugely wrong and I'd love to try and help to change this. I want to be able to help people and in particular girls with aspergers (diagnosed or not) so that when they grow up they get the support they need and so that people understand them more.

 

So my idea is that I could set up a company where I would offer advice and support to families who have girls with aspergers or suspect they have girls with it. Also I would offer training to schools where I would talk to the staff about identifying girls with aspergers and how to provide for their needs. Obviously I couldn't do all this straight away. I would need to spend a number of years first researching the area more and working with families and girls who have aspergers. I'm going to volunteer at some local autistic schools and see if I can find some families that I can spend some time with and use this to try and find out more.

 

What do you think?

[baddad]

Hi Kerry -

Sorry, I'm really uncomfortable with this post. Looking back at your profile you joined the forum a few months ago with a self-diagnosis of autism, and now seem to be suggesting that you want to set yourself up in business offering advice and support to parents, schools and children themselves? And you seem to have qualified yourself to diagnose other's too - i.e. those two teachers you're '99% certain about' and numbers of 'girls you have seen' as a teacher. Don't you think all of this really needs someone a bit more, erm, qualified or experienced? I mean, even if your intentions are wholly good, that doesn't mean the outcome would be, would it? And would you tell prospective clients what your background was - i.e. a primary teacher who decided they had autism and then decided to assume the mantle of 'professional advisor' (running a business offering advice is a profession) on the basis of that self-diagnosis. And if you're offering a support service for parents/young autistic girls do you view the forum as a potential advertising space and it's users as potential clients?

Sorry if that sounds blunt, but I trust you'll see my point(s)

 

L&P

 

BD

[kerryt84]

Hi Kerry -

Sorry, I'm really uncomfortable with this post. Looking back at your profile you joined the forum a few months ago with a self-diagnosis of autism, and now seem to be suggesting that you want to set yourself up in business offering advice and support to parents, schools and children themselves? And you seem to have qualified yourself to diagnose other's too - i.e. those two teachers you're '99% certain about' and numbers of 'girls you have seen' as a teacher. Don't you think all of this really needs someone a bit more, erm, qualified or experienced? I mean, even if your intentions are wholly good, that doesn't mean the outcome would be, would it? And would you tell prospective clients what your background was - i.e. a primary teacher who decided they had autism and then decided to assume the mantle of 'professional advisor' (running a business offering advice is a profession) on the basis of that self-diagnosis. And if you're offering a support service for parents/young autistic girls do you view the forum as a potential advertising space and it's users as potential clients?

Sorry if that sounds blunt, but I trust you'll see my point(s)

 

L&P

 

BD

 

Yes I see your point Baddad, although it has considerably upset me at your bluntness. If you have read my post properly you will see that I have said that I know I would not be able to do this straight away. When I say I will need to research the area I mean undertaking courses and gaining qualifications in the area. I also mentioned that I will find schools and families that I could spend a lot of time with to gain understanding. I'm sorry if you thought I meant I was going to go out tomorrow and start offering myself up as an expert on the subject and qualified to give advice. I am not stupid enough to think that is the case, it is just in my limited experience I can see that girls with AS don't seem to be identified as obviously as boys and from what I have read this is a well known fact. I was talking about an idea in the long term, years down the line, and that would take a considerable amount of work and preparation first. And no I do not see the forum as a potential advertising space, I was simply asking if people thought it would be a good idea. I really don't see how it could have looked like I was advertising.

[Malcolm Matthews]

Kerry,

I respect baddad's issues with your idea, and you were wise to consider them. (Sorry they upset you - I'm sure baddad didn't mean any disrespect!)

You have the enthusiasm, which is half the battle. If you are truly willing and motivated enough to receive a professional diagnosis for yourself and the proper formal training to allow you to assess and help others, I think yours is a fine idea, well worth pursuing. But, of course, with those caveats. Adults on the spectrum (my own lovely wife included) could really use some of the same type of guidance we are finally finding available for our children. (Boy, could my wife use a social skills class!)

Cheers!

-- Malcolm

Edited April 25, 2010 by Malcolm Matthews

[kerryt84]

Kerry,

I respect baddad's issues with your idea, and you were wise to consider them. (Sorry they upset you - I'm sure baddad didn't mean any disrespect!)

You have the enthusiasm, which is half the battle. If you are truly willing and motivated enough to receive a professional diagnosis for yourself and the proper formal training to allow you to assess and help others, I think yours is a fine idea, well worth pursuing. But, of course, with those caveats. Adults on the spectrum (my own lovely wife included) could really use some of the same type of guidance we are finally finding available for our children. (Boy, could my wife use a social skills class!)

Cheers!

-- Malcolm

 

Thank you Malcolm. I respect Baddad's issues too and I can see why he objected so strongly. I don't think I made it clear enough that I was talking about a number of years into the future. I would liken it to when I decided to become a teacher, I knew I would have a number of years of training to do and lots of experience to gain, but even without any training and experience I knew I could be a good teacher and help a lot of children. You have made me think though, because I do agree that there is not a lot of help out there for women on the spectrum. I will consider this closely in the future also.

[Mumble]

In all the schools I have taught in though I have seen girls who I'm sure have aspergers, and quite worryingly I have seen many teachers who show classic signs of it too. In the school I work in now there are 2 teachers who I am 99% certain have it.

I want to comment on this first. You, as a teacher, should know that we are not qualified to diagnose or even propose a diagnosis for the children we work with. This is potentially dangerous because we then look for more evidence of that casual dx and miss out on other issues/symptoms that might be characteristic of something else. Our job begins and ends with noting specific difficulties and concerns and reporting these to the person above you who is responsible for additional/special needs. In the same way that a GP wouldn't diagnose Autism, neither would a primary teacher who is equally generalist.

 

As for the teachers, something similar applies. The teachers' behaviours you have observed may be equally characteristic of many other issues or simply part of their personality. Rather than diagnosing them (in your head) and then just taking what you see as what is, if you really are concerned, why not support the individual? If they appear to have difficulty joining a conversation, for instance, why not proactively help them to join in and include them?

 

So my idea is that I could set up a company where I would offer advice and support to families who have girls with aspergers or suspect they have girls with it. Also I would offer training to schools where I would talk to the staff about identifying girls with aspergers and how to provide for their needs. Obviously I couldn't do all this straight away. I would need to spend a number of years first researching the area more and working with families and girls who have aspergers. I'm going to volunteer at some local autistic schools and see if I can find some families that I can spend some time with and use this to try and find out more.

 

What do you think?

I think it would be very difficult. You acknowledge the need for more training. Are you aware of how much in order to be respected? I'm assuming you currently have a subject degree and a PGCE or a degree in Primary Ed? You're going to need a psychology background to do what you want which will mean retraining from the beginning - degree, masters, doc in clin. psych. - about 8 years full time - can you fund that? Even if you don't go down the psych route and keep it educational, you're still going to have to gain a number of qualifications to be recognised, probably at doctoral level. How will you cope with this or fund it?

 

Have you considered how the difficulties you have that may or may not be related to AS will interact with what you want to do? How will you cope with the networking required to build up a rage of contacts? How will you manage the conversations with parents and standing up and talking in front of rooms of teachers? How will you cope with the issues - sensory etc. - of the multiple different environments you will have to work in (different schools, homes, etc.), how will you cope with the lack of a regular income and lack of a regular timetable which you currently have but won't get if self-employed or doing the sort of work you suggest? How would you cope with teachers or parents who disagree with or do not want to hear what you are saying - you didn't cope well with BD's reaction to your suggestion - how would you cope with the potentially very emotive responses of parents you are telling that their daughter might have Autism? How would you empathise with the parents you work with?

 

[baddad]

Hi again Kerry - a slight apology, because TBH I did sort of skim read your post while i was chasing my son around to get him ready for HIS golf lesson and didn't fully take in the couple of sentences in the second para about training up etc.

That said, the concerns I raised do still apply, and I feel you really need to think about autism in the wider context rather than what you can identify from your own background, because the assumptions you're making at the moment are potentially dangerous.

I'd recommend also widening your scope - perhaps doing some degree level training in 'disability care' generally - because many people these days seem to look at autism purely from one angle, where in fact it's far more complex than that. Certainly for me a great deal of the training I did in care management into 'the social context' of disability opened my eyes to the complexities and the wider implications. I think, in fact, it's that that often means my opinions 'stick out like sore thumbs' on this forum, because i'm always taking the wider view which is not necessarily the one mums, dads, carers - or even on the odd occassion they appear here - some of the professionals want to hear.

 

Hope that's helpful

 

L&P

 

BD

[trekster]

i think you should contact Lorna Wing or someone at research autism and ask for their advice. i highly recommend investigating the University of Birmingham or the Sheffield version autism course. Im currently undertaking it and you can do a postgraduate version if you prefer. Mines the BPhil in autism.

 

As we both know thinking someones autisitc and actually telling them you know their autistic are different things. Only a diagnostician can fully diagnose someone with autism or any other social communication disorder.

Edited April 25, 2010 by trekster

[Kathryn]

It sounds like an idea worth pursuing, Kerry, and I think some posters were a bit hard on you for simply expressing what is the embryo of an idea - all dreams have to start somewhere. (although Baddad did acknowledge that he hadn't fully read your first post). Many careers begin with a personal experience which inspires/infuriates/devastates the individual to the extent that they want to make things better for others.

 

Go for it. As the parent of a daughter diagnosed with AS as 15 and who sailed "under the radar" for most of her school career, I'm probably not without bias but I do think girls with AS and other SEN are unrecognised in the school system as they tend not to be the ones hitting teachers or chucking furniture around.

 

Best of luck!

 

K x

Edited April 25, 2010 by Kathryn

[Mumble]

they tend not to be the ones hitting teachers or chucking furniture around.

Not all ASD boys do this either!!!! I think I may have said this before, but violence isn't a symptom/characteristic of AS.

 

It sounds like an idea worth pursuing, Kerry, and I think some posters were a bit hard on you for simply expressing what is the embryo of an idea

I understand what you are saying, and yes, I agree that ideas have to start somewhere, but they also have to be realistic. I wouldn't want for everyone to be saying 'yes go for it' making out that it would be fairly unproblematic, for the poster then to quit her current job with a steady income only to find out at that stage that oops, she's not qualified for what she wants to do or that she cannot afford to take the necessary qualifications. Particularly in the present climate, as wonderful as it would be if we could all pursue our dreams, we also need to be realistic. I'm not saying don't do it, but I am saying think very carefully before you do do it.

 

[Kathryn]

Take your point Mumble, but fact that the OP has said

 

Obviously I couldn't do all this straight away. I would need to spend a number of years first researching the area more and working with families and girls who have aspergers. I'm going to volunteer at some local autistic schools and see if I can find some families that I can spend some time with and use this to try and find out more.

 

suggests that she wasn't about to leap impulsively into it anyway so I was just encouraging her to check it out.

 

I agree that violence isn't a symptom of AS, but I'm talking about pupils with SEN. Most often the pupils reacting to school stress with frustration that develops into aggression, are boys, and it's the disruptive pupils who will get noticed first, and get the help.

 

K x

 

 

[cmuir]

Hi

 

I think most people would welcome support and advice from any individual who is suitably qualified or has a wealth of experience in the field. On this forum I suspect the membership consists mainly of parents/family members of children/adults with an ASD. As the parent of a child with AS, whilst I don't consider myself to be a professional or an expert, I do feel that I have a a wealth of knowledge about AS which I have either picked up through observing and caring for a child with AS, advice that I've been given from professional/s/other parents in similar situation/forum members, and of course from my son. Of course, that doesn't mean I'm right and I think it's the same for some. In that respect I feel I'm qualified to pass on to others the benefit of my experience if asked, even though I don't consider myself to be an expert. In my view, I think there's potential value in passing on to others who ask your observations, thoughts, etc. However, it's difficult to know where the line stops, for instance, although I don't consider myself an expert, I have found myself observing a child running around on the beach for example, and thought, 'yup, there's another one' (in some situations over the years, I've discovered that I was correct). I'm sure I come across as being incredibly arrogant, but I merely wish to illustrate that when you're living with someone with an ASD there are occasions when you encounter others who are very similar and make you think (I should add, I'd never actually say to someone 'I think your kid has AS' – if I were asked, at a push, I might say 'X is a bit like my son'). Teachers must have a difficult job – they can sometimes be damned if they do give an opinion and damned if they don't. Though, I feel strongly that teachers aren't qualified to say one way or another whether a child is on the spectrum because I don't think they have enough specific training or knowledge to say one way or another, however, I'm certain that other health care and education professionals (eg EPs), may ask their views. Again, very difficult as their views can be very damaging (as I've discovered from personal experience). When I think back to how my son presented as a younger child and the number of professionals (eg HV, GP, Community Paediatrician) that were emphatic about my son not being on the spectrum, I do battle with saying 'you need a professional qualification' as even professionals aren't always right (of course, the right specific expertise helps, not just general knowledge like, for example, a GP). Having said that, eventually we did see a professional who is highly respected in the Autistic world, who gave a definitive diagnosis of AS. Having read all her reports, it was incredible the details that she did pick up on – in fact, as time has went on, there's no doubt now that kiddo has AS. That also brings me onto going private for a diagnosis or advice. I must confess to having very mixed feelings about parents paying for private diagnoses/opinions. Having went through a very lengthy emotional rollercoaster ride of a diagnostic process for my son, I can see why parents can be driven to thinking that paying will give them a quick answer (ultimately, the hope is that a quick diagnosis will ensure that support is quickly forthcoming). Often, the diagnostic process is a very lengthy one because a number of professionals can be involved (eg SALT, OT, etc). Sadly, I don't think it necessarily always as straightforward as that. In some quarters, there can be suspicion that everything has a price even labels – some education authorities refuse to recognise private diagnoses. So, I'm really struggling to give any real pointers (I'm sure I've simply thrown up more questions than answers!!!. I guess I do think that a wealth of direct experience working with children on the specrum is a very good start.

 

Best wishes.

 

Caroline.

 

. So, it's a difficult one.

 

 

[zenemu]

The only thing I would add to this thread is that I have worked in mental health for over a decade and I wouldn't dream of saying that I am qualified to make a diagnosis depite often working with people who are ASD and being AS myself. ASD's symptoms are often very subtle and complex. People sometimes (often in fact), just have personality traits which are similar to ASD. Equally other disorders and conditions can initially appear to be ASD like. I would also add that as someone with Aspergers, I am very poorly equiped to diagnose others with ASD as I tend to focus on personality traits in others that are similar to my own, which of course is a very ASD thing to do.

 

In short, leave diagnosis to the professionals, they might not always get it right, but people can always ask for a second opinion. Equally be careful with advice. Many of these people will be undiagnosed, unless you know exactly what you are doing, advice and advocacy can be a dangerous game to play.

 

Zen

Edited April 26, 2010 by zenemu

[cmuir]

Hi

 

Meant to add that in some cases I suspect that some professionals delay giving a diagnosis/label because it's a responsibility which they don't take likely - ie getting a diagnosis wrong could be very damaging to the child, family, and of course, the professional. Although I've said in my previous post that if I were asked for advice, I'd give it, but I'd also exercise extreme caution and ensure the person asking for the advice was fully aware that I wasn't qualified (giving advice to a parent who is new to it all could heavily influence whether they pursue professional advice or not - I think professional advice should always be sought).

 

The above said (and in my previous post), I think your future plans are an excellent start. Diagnosing a child is usually a collective decision made by a number of professionals as each has their own specific area of expertise. So, best wishes.

 

Caroline.

[kerryt84]

Thanks everyone for your comments. First I would like to apologise for making it sound like I feel I can diagnose someone with AS. That is not the impression I wanted to give. I would never tell an adult or a child's parents that I thought they had AS. I do not know enough about it and as some of you have said there are lots of other conditions that are very similar. As cmuir said it is just a passing thought that comes into my head when observing someone. I'm sure it has happened to all of you. It was wrong of me to say I was 99% certain they had it though.

 

Thanks for your reccommendation Trekster, it was the MA course at Birmingham uni I was looking at doing.

 

Yesterday I deeply regretted posting, but today I am glad I did. I feel some of you have made some very useful comments. I do wonder whether I would cope with such an unstructured role and talking in front of groups of strangers. I'd like to think if it was something I was passionate about I would cope with it. I need to carry on thinking it through very carefully though. I will start off offering to do some volunteering at a local school and see how I cope with that.

 

Even if the original idea doesn't happen, I still know I want to help people, I just don't know how. The problem is that I am incredibly ambitious, get bored easily and so get these wild ideas and it's all I can think about and I don't actually consider all the practicalities so thank you all for helping me evaluate the idea properly.

[Tally]

Even if the original idea doesn't happen, I still know I want to help people, I just don't know how. The problem is that I am incredibly ambitious, get bored easily and so get these wild ideas and it's all I can think about and I don't actually consider all the practicalities so thank you all for helping me evaluate the idea properly.

Not everyone is able to make grand gestures. Sometimes you can help in small ways, like making a difference to someone's day. As a teacher, you are in an excellent position to help people simply by being good at your job. Maybe your own knowledge of ASD can help you raise concerns about pupils you come across, and find ways to work well with them and help educate them. I have found that I simply can't get involved in all the things I would like to help with, but I like to think that I do some good in smaller ways.

[trekster]

Take your point Mumble, but fact that the OP has said

 

 

 

suggests that she wasn't about to leap impulsively into it anyway so I was just encouraging her to check it out.

 

I agree that violence isn't a symptom of AS, but I'm talking about pupils with SEN. Most often the pupils reacting to school stress with frustration that develops into aggression, are boys, and it's the disruptive pupils who will get noticed first, and get the help.

 

K x

 

Except in a select few as Tony Atwood has said.

 

[trekster]

Thanks everyone for your comments. First I would like to apologise for making it sound like I feel I can diagnose someone with AS. That is not the impression I wanted to give. I would never tell an adult or a child's parents that I thought they had AS. I do not know enough about it and as some of you have said there are lots of other conditions that are very similar. As cmuir said it is just a passing thought that comes into my head when observing someone. I'm sure it has happened to all of you. It was wrong of me to say I was 99% certain they had it though.

 

Thanks for your reccommendation Trekster, it was the MA course at Birmingham uni I was looking at doing.

 

Yesterday I deeply regretted posting, but today I am glad I did. I feel some of you have made some very useful comments. I do wonder whether I would cope with such an unstructured role and talking in front of groups of strangers. I'd like to think if it was something I was passionate about I would cope with it. I need to carry on thinking it through very carefully though. I will start off offering to do some volunteering at a local school and see how I cope with that.

 

Even if the original idea doesn't happen, I still know I want to help people, I just don't know how. The problem is that I am incredibly ambitious, get bored easily and so get these wild ideas and it's all I can think about and I don't actually consider all the practicalities so thank you all for helping me evaluate the idea properly.

 

Thats ok, you cheered me up with your thanks. Good idea on the local school front.