School have refused to let me observe my son

[baddad]

Hi Sally

 

I think you may possibly come across on the forum as 'concrete' and forceful because you know the law and you are explaining it (a very concrete subject). However, as baddad himself should know, people cannot be judged by what they type alone.

 

No, that's not why I feel Sally comes across as 'concrete' and 'forceful'. I think there are many members on the forum who know the law and explain it, but i don't think all of them come across as concrete and forceful. Equally, there are sometimes posts by people who openly admit to not knowing the law or to being able to explain it who do come across as 'concrete' and 'forceful'. Concrete and forceful, to me, means someone who asks for advice and then rejects anything or responds negatively to anything that does not seem to confirm what they want to hear. I do have some very strongly held opinions and I am/have been 'judged' for them, but I (don't think?) I seek reassurance or confirmation of those beliefs, and on the odd occassion that I do ask 'what do you think?' I do consider all the 'angles' that come back in response. I can also usually define why I have an opinion and debate the pros and cons of the subject.

I think 'knowing the law', if taken literally, can mean a person being completely unreasonable - for instance (and this is not a comment about Sally, it is just an example) the law might state something about 'every child being entitiled to...' and a parent taking that literally (as 'a very concrete subject') could demand what they felt to be 'reasonable adjustments' for their child that had a wholly negative effect for the other 750 or so pupils in the school. I think they might also make long term decisions that are less beneficial for their own children on the basis of that 'concrete thinking', because they apply the same selective filtering to their long-term decisions as they do their short term ones. In so doing, the children can become disenfranchised and isolated to such a degree that it becomes impossible to see the long-term implications...

I don't think the law - in that sense - is concrete. I think the law itself recognises that - 'mitigating circumstances' etc. The problem is, mitigation demands compromise and 'reasonableness'. If you apply law to the letter, quite often what you get is actually injustice; somebody 'winning' on a technicality that benefits them but actually has much wider implications for many others. But that's sort of wandering from the subject...

I believe emphatically that home/school communication should be a two way thing. I also believe that sometimes parents (and schools - it can work the other way too) interpret two-way communcation as 'I speak, you listen'.

So putting that in a nutshell: (a) please don't speak for me - I'm quite good at expressing my opinions for myself, and (b ) i think sally can be 'concrete and forceful' on the basis that she asked for opinions and then rejected those that didn't fit her preconceptions as 'knee-jerk reactions', and because i have seen elements of that kind of selectivity in many of her other posts.

 

L&P

 

BD

 

Oh PS: Just read Jaded's post above, and she's said what i meant about 'the letter of the law' far more succinctly. I tend to be more of a 'hammer to a nut' type, because i've noticed over the years that subtlety doesn't seem to work for me

 

[chris54]

I don't see what might be 'secret' during the school day anyway it wouldn't be secret from the other children anyway would it? I don't see how I would observe anything confidential more that kids come home and tell their parents about after a normal school day. Many UK schools even invite 'selected' parents into class as 'official' parent helpers that go into class and help with reading - so it confidentiality not an issue for them? Or is it an issue of the school being in control?

If a parent is going into a school as a parent helper they will be under the same obligation to maintain confidentiality that the employed staff are. Also many school require them to undergo a CRB check

 

Its not a case of secret it a case of not talking about other people's children. If you like spreading gossip. Also we, in this country we have taken a line on child protection which I know some people find over the top but when things go wrong every one is looking for someone to blame so everyone is trying to cover their backs.

Edited May 10, 2010 by chris54

[Suze]

Hi Sally, I want to reiterate what oxgirl said in her last post (which you seem to have ignored)...let the school do their job,

 

it seems your son is very similar to mine and they have many similar learning difficulties I have tried to offer suggestions and help in other posts which I have replied to ( you seem to ignore them though).However... in summary and to cut it right down so I don,t waffle....your son is getting help, he won,t be cured, he,ll hopefully do his best and come out with a few decent exam grades when hes 16.He,ll make his own way in the world regardless of any of this and become what he wants to be .

 

With my son I focus on him and his interests(noty the school and wether they are doing their job) , I encourage him to join clubs and he has found Air cadets to be a brill oraganisation , he is venturing out into the outside world .Your his mum I,m sure you would help your son more if you let the school just do their job .

 

my son has had all the help and money" we "his parents and the LEA could throw at him and still can,t write or read, he,ll be lucky to get an english grade next yr, he has an IQ of 130...but he,s dyslexic ....its a fact we have excepted it , if you can take this advice from a parent who has been there and been through it and done it.

[cmuir]

Hi

 

Actually I have to agree that kids can behave very differently if a parent is present as it's not the 'norm'. I've no idea how your son would behave, but certainly I'm very aware of it with my son. Although I'd dearly love to be a fly on the wall in my son's classroom, I want him to present how he normally presents and that usually means that I have to try and trust people that I don't trust - I really wouldn't want to stress him out unecessarily. Little things always get back to me one way or another in time and so even if school did want to hide something or they have confidence issues with you observing, issues have had a habit of coming out eventually.

 

I think you come across as a mother who is passionate about ensuring that your child gets the support he needs. Whilst I wouldn't use the term intimidating, I do think you're very 'full on' - for every point that's not entirely agreed with, you come back with several other 'and another thing' (I'm not deliberately trying to be rude or hurtful, but merely conveying my opinion as I see it). I can be exactly the same, however, as I said in a previous post on another topic of yours, it's much easier said than done, but in order to make the best of a bad situation, it's necessary to try and work with what you have. Guess what I'm saying is that I've found myself wanting to reel off a list of issues that I have with the school, however, have done so but also have to relay positive as well (not so as to pander to them, but rather try and show them that I understand that they have a politically difficult job to do. I have to self-reflect from time to time. Although not always an easy task, particularly when you feel frustrated and wound up, but can you compose a list of things that the school does do well? I've found in the past that my gripes go down a bit better once I've acknowledged their good points.

 

Is it possible that you could ask someone that you feel is perhaps less inclined to be biased to go and relay their observations to you?

 

Caroline.

Edited May 10, 2010 by cmuir

[Sally44]

Hi Sally,

 

I can see your desperation for your son in your posts and your frustration and I can sympathise with it, really I can. All I'd say is that your lad is still very young, he has years and years of learning ahead of him and even though you feel he isn't achieving his potential right now it doesn't mean that he won't. Could it be that your expectations are just too high right now? Just because he is capable in some areas does not mean he has the same ability in others. My lad is 16, he is gifted in sciences and will probably get A's or even A*'s in all three sciences in his GCSEs two weeks from now. However, he's totally hopeless at English and will more than likely get an F or even a G if he's lucky. I could beat up the school as much as I like for not helping him enough with English or I could just be proud that he's doing so great at Science.

 

Maybe it would be better for you if you could relax a bit and accept that he is doing what he can do at this time and that the school are doing what they can. I'm not wording this well, I know, but you can't fight and fight non-stop, it can't help anyone. When my lad was 9 he couldn't even sit down at a table and write a sentance without screaming the place down and now he's getting A*'s in science. He used to have a scribe doing ALL his writing for him up until last year and now he does all his own writing. His books are a disgrace, torn and ripped and the writing is horrendous but he still gets A*'s in Physics and Chemistry and Biology. Your lad has so much time ahead of him and plenty of time to progress, try and step back and chill if you can, let the teachers do their jobs and rejoice in his successes and you'll be happier. His whole future does not rest on what he does in school at this moment.

 

 

 

~ Mel ~

 

I have left school to get on with things since he started there in September 2008 until non-compliance and other issues came to light at the annual review in February 2010. So they have had more than a year to fulfill the Statement. For example the school is supposed to use a system recommended by the NHS SALT called SCERTS. The SALT has told me that the LEA are dealing with copyright issues and cannot implement it until that is resolved. BUT there is another school within our LEA that is already using it. So there cannot be copyright issues. So the LEA must have lied to the SALT.

 

There is a procedure for non-compliance which I have followed. Even though the LEA should respond within 7 days, I have heard nothing. That is why I have then complained to the LGO. I don't really have any other choice other than to follow these procedures. The only other alternative is do nothing. And if I do nothing then there is no point him having a Statement if it is not met.

 

I am glad for you that your son is now making progress. From your post your son was receiving extra help eg. a scribe etc. Presently my son is not receiving anything extra for the SPLD side of things. The enhanced resource relates to the structure of the day being suitable for children on the spectrum. School did put him on a more intensive reading programme, which was good that they did that. However it is the SAME reading programme the EP recommended at his other school 15 months earlier. To me that demonstrates that the EP service have not been monitoring his progress or the transition from his previous school to his current one. As they had already identified he was having severe difficulties acquiring literacy in 2008 when they originally recommended this reading programme, it should have been put in place straight away at his new school.

 

It is also very clear from information we already have that the approach they are using is not suitable for my son. The EPs recent report now agrees that point. But this EP has known that and has argued against any other approach. The only reason for that is because the approaches he finds useful are only available in special schools.

 

I could do absolutely nothing and wait until my son is tranferred to the local enhanced resource secondary school as that is the natural pathway. But that is setting him up to fail and also to deal with the consequences of that failure on my son.

 

Anyway, i'm seeing the SALT this afternoon and can get it from the horses mouth.

[call me jaded]

For example the school is supposed to use a system recommended by the NHS SALT called SCERTS. The SALT has told me that the LEA are dealing with copyright issues and cannot implement it until that is resolved. BUT there is another school within our LEA that is already using it. So there cannot be copyright issues. So the LEA must have lied to the SALT.

 

The copyright issue could be around having appropriately trained staff to deliver the programme. How do you know that the staff that are qualified aren't fully employed elsewhere? Or that the licence isn't geographic by school?

 

I think you're scratching around for reasons to prove the LA are liars. Be careful, it could backfire.

[Sally44]

The copyright issue could be around having appropriately trained staff to deliver the programme. How do you know that the staff that are qualified aren't fully employed elsewhere? Or that the licence isn't geographic by school?

 

I think you're scratching around for reasons to prove the LA are liars. Be careful, it could backfire.

 

I am not accusing them of lying in my letter to them, just asking for an explanation of the delay and asking when it will be put in place. I'm just letting off steam.

On other issues I do have written documents that they have lied. I have the Head teacher of his former school agreeing with my interpretation of events and not as the LEA said they happened. The autism outreach teacher and the parent partnership also wrote letters agreeing with my version of events. We were all at the same meeting and we all agree what was said by the LEA Inclusion Officer. There is absolutely no doubt that the LEA lied to try to protect themselves because they denied my son funding by saying no more applications for extra funding were being accepted until the new financial year. Then they tried to say that that had never been said and that funding applications are considered throughout the year. That was a lie and the Head clearly states that the SENCO believed that no more funding was being allocated because that is what he was told and heard being said at the Panel from December onwards. And I have had a personal apology from the Director of Commissioning at our LEA for another issue. And I have letters which confirm programmes recommended by the EP service were never put into place (2 programmes to date).

Admittedly that is on other issues. But it is a pattern.

I'm afraid my experiences with my own LEA have not been good.

My understanding is that school staff have been trained a long time ago. But the LEA have just not responded. I wonder if it is worth placing a bet on whether they try to kick it out of the new Proposed Statement?

 

Anyway saw the SALT today. The TA that runs the SULP group is someone I have never met. SALT apologised for sending out mixed messages and said the Head feels it would be too many adults in the group. I'm happy with that. Afterall I never asked to go in. I was just suspicious at the schools' motivation. The SALT said she also wants to see how they are monitoring what the group is doing because she too has not been given any information. She said she has a couple of targets she is going to ask them to use. One involves ensuring the child looks in the direction of the person that is speaking. If that does become a target she will let me know and I can work on that at home and look for examples of it in books or on the TV. That is the level I am happy to be working at. I don't need to go on a course or anything. Just be able to work with school to help my son achieve new skills.

 

SALT said "finally" to the diagnosis of dyslexia. She said it is well known that children with language disorders tend to have specific learning difficulties.

 

[Sally44]

Hi

 

Actually I have to agree that kids can behave very differently if a parent is present as it's not the 'norm'. I've no idea how your son would behave, but certainly I'm very aware of it with my son. Although I'd dearly love to be a fly on the wall in my son's classroom, I want him to present how he normally presents and that usually means that I have to try and trust people that I don't trust - I really wouldn't want to stress him out unecessarily. Little things always get back to me one way or another in time and so even if school did want to hide something or they have confidence issues with you observing, issues have had a habit of coming out eventually.

 

I think you come across as a mother who is passionate about ensuring that your child gets the support he needs. Whilst I wouldn't use the term intimidating, I do think you're very 'full on' - for every point that's not entirely agreed with, you come back with several other 'and another thing' (I'm not deliberately trying to be rude or hurtful, but merely conveying my opinion as I see it). I can be exactly the same, however, as I said in a previous post on another topic of yours, it's much easier said than done, but in order to make the best of a bad situation, it's necessary to try and work with what you have. Guess what I'm saying is that I've found myself wanting to reel off a list of issues that I have with the school, however, have done so but also have to relay positive as well (not so as to pander to them, but rather try and show them that I understand that they have a politically difficult job to do. I have to self-reflect from time to time. Although not always an easy task, particularly when you feel frustrated and wound up, but can you compose a list of things that the school does do well? I've found in the past that my gripes go down a bit better once I've acknowledged their good points.

 

Is it possible that you could ask someone that you feel is perhaps less inclined to be biased to go and relay their observations to you?

 

Caroline.

 

 

I just get so frustrated with how some people tie me in knots and contradict themselves over and over and over again and this is going on for a long time. Not with everyone. There are lots of people involved with my son who have been brilliant.

 

Let me give you an example: about SPLD I asked the EP her opinion on that some years ago (2007 onwards. She told me that she does not agree to putting a child with ASD through standardised assessments because it makes them anxious. I was happy with that. She then said she wanted to do classroom based functional tests to determine his difficulties. I was happy with that. I asked whether she had done them. She said yes. I asked for the findings and I have never received a reply. I have written and emailed. No response. So I have no idea what she found.

Fast forward 3 years and this time the same EP says that the ONLY way to get a diagnosis of a SPLD is to undergo standardised assessments. Which it is well known that they do cause anxiety and that children on the spectrum perform poorly on them. The same EP completely refutes all other assessments (standardised and functional) that have been carried out to date. And further states that my son does not have a SPLD.

Fast forward another couple of weeks after my complaint and a swiftly penned letter from his paediatrician and she makes an about turn.

Believe me, I am not looking for anything additional if it is not really there. I have another family member who has mild learning difficulties and if that were the case with my son I would accept that and be happy to send him to the same special school my sister went to. But the point is he doesn't have general learning difficulties. And the EP/LEA have tried to wriggle off that hook for years because it does have funding implications and it does make the child's difficulties more complex.

[baglady]

As part of the enhanced resource mainstream provision, the school has a weekly social skills group. In it the children supposedly work on social skills. I have never been given any details of what the targets or aims of the group or my son are, eventhough I have requested this information. I am meeting the SALT in school next week and she suggested we both go into the Social Group to observe. School have refused me access on the grounds that the children will behave differently if someone else is there. So why is it okay for the SALT to go in?? These are 'mainstream' ER children, and I would be allowed to observe a class. So I don't feel the restriction is due to the children.

Then the Head added that it is run by TAs who will feel 'intimidated' by my presence.

 

This just sounds like an ad hoc group run by TAs who are not trained or confident in what they are doing, and therefore they don't want me to see what they are doing with my child or as a group.

 

I asked him to put his refusal in writing.

 

Opinions??

 

not read through whole thread yet but first reaction is if the TAs are so easily intimidated maybe they shouldn't be doing the job anwway!! how silly is that. i too was recently told i could not observe my son in class. which i was surprised about as i had done so at his previous special school. (i moved across the country from one side to the other...yet still could not find an autism specific school in the area for my son who has autism...Labour & inclusion have a lot to answer for) i was on the point of taking him out & homeschooling him last week...but after the school bent over backwards to assure me that the school is tha place for my son to be...i'm seeing how things go...for now. children with autism deserve far more from their education than merely a watered down version of the national curriculum...my son has autism...he is different & always will be...it is not enough to say we accept that...we have to acknowledge that the autistic perspective is no less valid than our own (NT) one. that should be the starting point...instead of trying to squeeze square pegs into round holes. esp when square peg in question perfectly happy being 'square'

 

dealing with challenging behaviours & helping my son to cope better with frustration & anxiety is one thing & helping him to become more aware of & enjoy the world around him goes without saying but don't try to 'normalise' him!!! whats normal anyway????? (my constant refrain)

[baddad]

we have to acknowledge that the autistic perspective is no less valid than our own (NT) one.

 

 

Hi bag lady - welcome to the forum.

 

I'm not sure I understand the above, because I don't think there is a universal 'autistic perspective' any more than there is a universal 'NT perspective', and I think in either case the validity of the perspective is dependent on all sorts of other factors than any sort of perceived neurological 'type'. Some people - autistic or NT - have very unrealistic perspectives on how the world should respond to them or the degree to which their needs should be 'accommodated' regardless of the impact they have on other people. While they might seen perfectly 'valid' from the individuals perspective - or even from the perspectives of their parents/carers - it does not make them reasonable.

A person (autistic or NT) may have the perspective - either independently as part of their individual psychology, or from wider influences like environment, upbringing etc - that aggression is a good method for controlling their environment or that their own interests have to be served above all (and regardless of) other people's. In a school environment, as in the OP, neither perspective is reasonable (valid), and - though I have no knowledge of regulations in this area - it appears from several posts that it is also not considered valid or reasonable for parents to have an expectation of observing their children in class outside of those events where parents would naturally be included. Personally I'd endorse that, for the reasons others have posted above.

I'd agree totally with your final paragraph, but add the codical that these are subjective judgements. Asking 'what's normal?' prompts an equally valid question: 'what's normalisation?' To some autistic people - or their parents/carers - that may mean 'no compromise whatsoever' while for others it could mean something quite different. Similarly, perceptions can vary hugely on what equate to 'square peg/round hole' situations and what are reasonable responses to them, and, additionally, to the meaning of 'dealing with challenging behaviour' or 'helping cope with frustration'.

 

Finally, on the point of whether TA's have a 'right' to feel intimidated or whether that intimidation implies they're in the wrong job I'd disagree entirely. Again, it is purely subjective and 'intimidated' can mean different things to different people, but from a personal POV I know that many parents i meet have very unreasonable expectations regarding the priorities a school should attach to their own child's education, and demand these with very little regard for the wider implications for staff or other students. I know for a fact that I couldn't do a TA's job because if I met one of those parents I wouldn't be able to bite my tongue/sit on my hands, and, under those circumstances even I, a big ol' thick skinned rhino of a blerk, might feel 'intimidated', because the consequences of my not biting my tongue/sitting on my hands could be disasterous.

 

L&P

 

BD

Edited June 1, 2010 by baddad

[Sally44]

The outcome of this so far is that I have never met the TA who is running the social skills group. So the heads comment about "they might feel intimidated" was a general comment on the TA and not one aimed at me.

My son's teacher thought I had been in to observe the group and was surprised I had been refused and did not seem to share the heads concern. But I'm okay to go with the Head - as already said I was invited to go in and observe. I had not considered even asking myself. The SALT wanted us both to go in because she wanted to show me some things in the context of the group. That won't happen now.

Whether or not a lone TA is qualified to be teaching social skills to a group autistic children is a subject probably for another thread on another day.

Due to my son's Statement his Speech Therapist now has some input into this group. Which can only be a good thing for my son, the TA, all the other children in the group and the school too.

 

My son has a Statement which should be fulfilled. The LEA and school were at the tribunal and the Statement was agreed by all parties. So as it says that my son "will be explicitly taught social skills in the social skills group and those skills will be generalised into the classroom and playground using explicit teaching and support from a dedicated TA", I think it is perfectly reasonable to ask school "what are those targets, or social skills and are they being generalised into those settings and is a TA supporting him to do this." I am 100% certain that that has not happened. I can either say "okay, my son needed that input, but i'll just let it slip", or I can ask them nicely "what was the outcome." If I am not going to ask those questions, then there is no point having a Statement or a SEN system as far as I can see. If schools and LEAs are not going to comply with Statements, then what is the point of having them?

 

If the school are not doing that then a complaint to the LEA is required. I'm still waiting for a reply to my letter sent to the LEA in March. This has now been forwarded to the Local Government Ombudsman. Those are the procedures set by government (local and National) and that is what I am following.

 

All I know is that my son is not making academic progress. That maybe partly due to the fact that the EP service and the school are not using approaches that he can access and were reluctant to acknowledge and diagnose dyslexia.

 

The latest EP report now agrees he has dyslexia and also agrees that she can see the benefit of using a different approach to the one currently being used but thinks that that can be achieved without the need for specialist teaching. She also states he knows 16 high frequency words (2 years ago he knew 13). For a child of average intelligence, learning 3 words in two academic years needs to be examined.

 

His latest IEP target set at the end of May is for him to learn the first 16 high frequency words. So I presume since the EP made her report and said he had learnt them consistently in two settings, that he has been assessed again and has not infact learnt them. So, it maybe that he has made no progress at all since he moved schools, or he may even know less than the 13 he knew 2 years ago. I am going to explain what has happened because it is strange to say he has met a target and then set the same target some months later.

 

I think this all demonstrates that there needs to be a shift up a gear onto the next level. As the current situation is not working.

 

I have fortunately found a woman through a local disabled childrens services that is able to support me. She has said she will come with me to meet with school when the Proposed Statement arrives in July. She has advised me that we need to go through it line by line to check that school are able to fulfill it. I did do that last time and school said they could fulfill it, and then they just didn't do it. This time it would help to have someone with me.

 

This woman has suggested that it might be worth asking for a move into the school's autism unit due to the learning difficulties he is experiencing. Although I am happy with the unit from that perspective, it does not have a suitable peer group for my son. Alot of the children are totally non-verbal. But it is something I need to consider, especially as the autism advisory teacher said she thought he needed to be in the autism unit two years ago. At that time the LEA and the school SENCO said the unit was not suitable and could make him regress. They might have a different view now.

 

I know everyone thinks their child is 'complex'. But my son has such a combination of skills and difficulties that he is very hard to place. Maybe there will be other options now that we have a new government.

[baglady]

@ baddad (btw i read that at first glance as baghdad...)

 

did i say there was a universal NT or autistic perspective?? i don't think i did. when i say 'autistic perspective' i mean how a person with autism views the world around them/their take on things etc. i thought i made that quite obvious. but we could go round & round about something like that & it kind of detracts from what i was saying in my reply to the OP. i'm sure we can agree though that NT ppl are said to view the world in one way & ppl with autism in another. too much emphahsis on semantics & acronyms blahblah as it is...everyone has own ideas of what autism means to them or their child etc. personally i really don't like the term ASD for instance for several reasons (maybe i'll do a post about that too!! but did notice that this forum has aspergers in its title but not actually autism. my son diagnosed with autism not ASD which is basically no more than an umbrella term) & if its not 'disorder'!!? its 'impairments'??? my sons brain has developed differently - he has autism- but his autisitc view of the world is no less valid a viewpoint as that of NTs. this btw was exactly what i said to his teacher last week & going by the look on her face it was as if she had never thought of it quite like that before...

 

i'm seeing how things go for now...always have known that at some point i would home educate my son. i was asked to come into my sons previous school several times by his class teacher, to help them with resolving meltdown etc so to be told we don't have parents in the classroom at this, his new school was quite a surprise. considering the teacher wanted me to write so much down for her re meltdown/my methods at home etc etc it would have been a lot easier & simpler for me to have just viewed him in the surroundings of his class with his teachers to see what i could add to help things & to see why it is they are finding it so hard to get Finn settled in class...without seeing him in that situation at first hand how can i assist them anyway?? there is a NAS auitsm specific school in the next county across from where we live so the thought of moving closer to it has crossed my mind. teachers/parents on different pages as far as i'm concerned. i don't want my sons life to be all about conflict & meltdowns. many at home are unavoidable...he has to eat/shower/have a hair cut/go to bed etc but many conflicts (or battles as Finn calls them) at school that have been happening lately are unecessay & the upset that they cause is avoidable.

 

for eg does it really matter if Finn doesn't finish work on time??? & can they really be so surprised that 2 hrs later when they tell him he can't have his 'golden time' b/c he didn't finish said work etc etc he has a meltdown??? the other day their concern was he won't sit in circle time to listen to a story. well now they are asking him to do 2 things...to focus & listen to a story (one he possibly has no interest in...) & to sit close next to other children maybe even one on either side of him??????? sometimes talking to teachers...its like you have to speak slowly to them while stating the obvious M Y S O N H A S A U T I S M........if its about getting him to listen to a story set his chair a little way apart from the other children not right next to them...if its about getting him to read himself...then ask for a book from home that he is interested in & he will read it. & show just how well he can read...in fact my son reads everything constantly - road signs/comics/annuals/film credits/subtitles on TV etc etc & he doesn't have to be told how to spell or say a word twice either as he remembers every word that he reads. so to have his teacher tell me the other week that they don't think he likes to read was just utter nonsense....

 

when i said to his teachers does it eally matter if he finishes his work on time or not??? i could see her thinking oh this parent has such low expectations blahblah but as i told her...that couldn't be further from the truth but as Finn has autism/is different etc etc i don't think it fair to judge him by the same guidelines as we do for NT children. at school...we NT's get with the programme...even if we don't like it!! we know why we have to study...we know what exams lead to/uni etc/we know all about getting 'good' jobs etc etc. even those of us who decide to buck the system & play truant....are aware that they are going outside the expected social norms....while my son & children with autism like him....are above & beyond such expectations & social norms. so why should we should we force them upon them or try to squeeze them into those round holes??? i want my son to reach his potential whatever that may be, in fact i want for my son who has autism the same thing i want for my son who has just finished uni & doesn't have autism...i want him to be happy & healthy.

[baddad]

Hi again baglady - i won't take up the thread for long, but as you directed your post to me i thought i ought to at least answer the poiints you've raised. Yes, I do agree that as a 'rule of thumb' autistic people and non-autistic people do view the world in a different way to each other. The point i was making was that so to do two autistic people view the world differently to one another and/or so to do two neuroptypical people. I think that at the wider extremes of the spectrum you would probably find that a HFA autistic or AS person experienced the world more like an 'NT' person than like a profoundly affected, non-verbal, non-communicative, classic 'Kanner's' autistic, and I'm actually greatly concerned about the current thinking that seems to appropriate the experiences of profoundly autistic people when it suits but reject them when it doesn't. I think that equates to 'dual marginalisation', and that, increasingly, it further disenfranchises those who are genuinely most vulnerable.

 

Obviously I don't know you son, so can't possibly respond to the question individually, but in general terms I would say yes it does matter if Finn finishes his work on time if there is no specic reason (other than a generalised concept of what autism 'means') why he can't finish on time. To lower or have diminished expectations purely because a child is autistic does that child no favours whatsoever, and to foster a belief in that child that it is okay not to achieve things he or she is capable of achieving is actually disabling. The same would go for circle time and listening to stories - if the child can achieve it then it is perfectly reasonable to expect him/her to achieve it, whether he/she is autistic or not.

As far as golden time goes, why would it be acceptable for a child to 'get' golden time when they haven't achieved the target for which 'golden time' was the reward? Why should we accept 'meltdown' as a reasonable response to not achieving a target? Why teach a child 'it doesn't matter if you don't do it, we'll still give you the reward anyway because we know you'll get angry and upset if we don't?'... That will teach the child two things, that they don't have to try and that anger is rewarded, but both of those are negatives. Teaching a child that achievement is rewarded - the intent of golden time' - is a positive. Why replace a positive with two negatives, purely because a child is autistic?

 

Again, I don't know the specifics of your situation, but reading your post you do seem to have a very negative opinion of teachers generally:

 

sometimes talking to teachers...its like you have to speak slowly to them while stating the obvious M Y S O N H A S A U T I S M........

 

Perhaps it's just that they don't see autism per se as a reason for making adjustments - they respond to the child rather than the 'label'. I think if there is evidence that a child needs differential treatment then they should be treated differently - but that has nothing to do with autism or a dx, it's an assessment of need, rather than an assumption of need.

 

You said somewhere in your post that you don't want your son's life to be a series of meltdowns and conflicts. I totally agree, but my own way of helping my son to avoid meltdowns and conflicts was (and still is) to empower him to handle crises and to negotiate conflicts rather than to offer him an artificial world without either. I don't want him to be able to live in an artificial world that will cease to exist at some point, i want him to be able to negotiate, to the best of his abilities, the real world which he will have to live in long after the artifical environment has collapsed on him. Every branch of human psychology suggests that chidhood is emphatically the most crucial phase for achieving that kind of understanding.

 

Anyhoo, i'll bow out now, if I may, just adding that, in case I gave the wrong impression, my post last night offered general observations on the content of your post rather than being directly concerned with the OP's situation.

 

L&P

 

BD

Edited June 2, 2010 by baddad

[baglady]

@ baddad...sorry i know thread has gone on a bit & off topic (probably my fault!!) & you said you are bowing out...but just wanted to explain a few things (better) than i obviously did in my last post......its OK i won't expect a reply

 

Finns not yet asleep as didn't give him his melatonin last night...he needs a break from it for a few days every now & then when it stops being effective...hes starting to finally look tired........thank gooodness....so i will just leave a short reply too tired for anything more....we have gone a few times with no sleep at all........a full 24 hrs..........but hes on his way out now i can tell.........

 

anyway.....when is say 'autism' i mean autism not AS or even ASD which covers a whole range.

 

if trying to force him to finish school work leads to constant meltdowns & conflicts...then no its not worth it. Finn has came on SO much in the last few yrs & can communicate now & interact but it is on his own terms & in is own way...but he is not at the level of awareness to understand why he has to stay seated in his chair & finish work...& as for the circle time...Finn still has sensory issues & does not like ie can not handle such close contact forced upon him...that is not to say he can't get close to certain ppl at times...but it is very much guided by him and i respect that and expect others to also. i have always worked with my son to try & help him gain more awareness of the physical world around him & to help him cope with anxiety & frustrations better. it is an ongoing process. i recently had a large smooth stone engraved with the word 'BREATHE' to help Finn (& myself!!) focus on calming down during a meltdown...though i did recieve a scratched & bruised eye the other day when he flipped out...like i say its a process!!

 

i do not have 'diminished' expectations for my son i have 'different' expectations. my son has autism so it stands to reason that this would be so. my expectations for him are no less valid nor worthy. to say they are 'diminished' or less than...is judging them from a rigid NT perspective. my son is not NT nor will he ever be. my starting point is that i accept THAT...unconditionally. he also learns in a different way...you can't force things upon him...well you can try (as his current teachers try to....) but it will just lead to more conflict. i'm not anti-teachers btw Finns had some wonderful teachers but those are the ones who have taken the time to get to know Finn & have worked with him to achieve results....& NOT tried to force things against his natural way of being.

[baddad]

@ baddad...sorry i know thread has gone on a bit & off topic (probably my fault!!) & you said you are bowing out...but just wanted to explain a few things (better) than i obviously did in my last post......its OK i won't expect a reply

 

Finns not yet asleep as didn't give him his melatonin last night...he needs a break from it for a few days every now & then when it stops being effective...hes starting to finally look tired........thank gooodness....so i will just leave a short reply too tired for anything more....we have gone a few times with no sleep at all........a full 24 hrs..........but hes on his way out now i can tell.........

 

anyway.....when is say 'autism' i mean autism not AS or even ASD which covers a whole range.

 

if trying to force him to finish school work leads to constant meltdowns & conflicts...then no its not worth it. Finn has came on SO much in the last few yrs & can communicate now & interact but it is on his own terms & in is own way...but he is not at the level of awareness to understand why he has to stay seated in his chair & finish work...& as for the circle time...Finn still has sensory issues & does not like ie can not handle such close contact forced upon him...that is not to say he can't get close to certain ppl at times...but it is very much guided by him and i respect that and expect others to also. i have always worked with my son to try & help him gain more awareness of the physical world around him & to help him cope with anxiety & frustrations better. it is an ongoing process. i recently had a large smooth stone engraved with the word 'BREATHE' to help Finn (& myself!!) focus on calming down during a meltdown...though i did recieve a scratched & bruised eye the other day when he flipped out...like i say its a process!!

 

i do not have 'diminished' expectations for my son i have 'different' expectations. my son has autism so it stands to reason that this would be so. my expectations for him are no less valid nor worthy. to say they are 'diminished' or less than...is judging them from a rigid NT perspective. my son is not NT nor will he ever be. my starting point is that i accept THAT...unconditionally. he also learns in a different way...you can't force things upon him...well you can try (as his current teachers try to....) but it will just lead to more conflict. i'm not anti-teachers btw Finns had some wonderful teachers but those are the ones who have taken the time to get to know Finn & have worked with him to achieve results....& NOT tried to force things against his natural way of being.

 

 

Sorry - very quickly. I think probably I misunderstood your first post. When you said you couldn't find an autism specific school that meant he was attending a mainstream, and it was the fact that they had 'mainstream' expectations of him after offering reasonable adjustments that you thought unreasonable. That's a very different scenario to the one you outline above. I stand by what I say, though, generally with regard to 'diminished' expectations and making adjustments that accommodate 'wants' rather than 'needs'. Trying to put that into context, 'forcing' close contact on someone who doesn't want it/can't handle it is one thing, while always responding when they want it or allowing them to use the idea that they don't want it/can't handle it as an avoidance strategy for sanctions is something completely different. But often the two things get confused. A child who has just wilfully hurt someone or enacted an inappropriate behaviour may 'reject' the contact involved in taking them to their room and enforcing a grounding, but that has nothing to do with 'not being able to...'

I also disagree entirely that 'diminished expectations' implies a judgement based on 'rigid NT perspectives' - I have met many many parents who have diminished expectations of their children (not all of them autistic/as, by the way) and many children whose opportunities have been diminished as a consequence. The difference in cases where autism is a factor is usually that the diagnosis provides a justification for those diminished expectations in the parent's eyes, effectively 'blocking' any suggestion or argument that doesn't meet the parent's approval. I don't really believe in unconditional anything, TBH, if 'unconditional' means without expectation. 'Unconditional love' for example allows for the abuse of the person providing unconditional love by the person receiving it, and I don't really believe that abusive relationships are healthy ones, even if they give both parties involved exactly what they seem to want. That doesn't mean I love my son less, or that I don't accept his autism or anything like that, it just means that I have expectations of him and me to make our relationship as 'functional' as possible rather than accepting dysfunctional as a by product of his diagnosis. Certainly 'dysfunctional' isn't implied by the diagnosis: I and many other parents can atest to that, and so to could many NT parents of NT children who do have 'dysfunctional' relationships with their children.

I hope you don't mind this observation - it's certainly not intended to offend, so i hope it isn't interpreted that way - but i'm confused with the strategy you outlined for helping your son to calm down. To me, offering someone in the middle of an aggressive meltdown a large rock and asking them to read the message you've had inscribed on it seems far more complicated, invasive and potentially dangerous than having an expectation for them to respond to a clear and precise instruction to accept 'Time Out'. 'Time Out' is also a strategy that can be extended to include all environments - including school - whereas the large rock has inherent flaws in any scenario where being hit with a large rock is going to be negatively judged (the point I made in my last post about artificial environments).

 

As you said, though, wandering somewhat off topic, so I'll leave it there unless you want to start a new thread.

 

L&P

 

BD

[baglady]

its not a rock!!! are you kidding me??? haha...i said its a large stone (about 5/6 cms) Finn loves the feel of it as it is very cool to touch & he finds it comforting to hold. Finn can get short of breath when stressed hence...BREATHE...we also have a pic that says KEEP CALM & CARRY ON...he likes this too & he does some deep breathes & 'carries on' ie stops having a meltdown...its worked quite well actually. we also have a mug that says something like NOW PANIC AND FREAK OUT...which Finn finds funny too. he likes to say the two quotes & then decide whether to stay calm or freak out...obviously he does this when hes in a playful mood not during a meltdown. everyone is different/every family unit is diffferent & has a different dynamic. the (rock!?) stone makes sense to Finn & works for us.

 

AS for the whole expectations thing...again we could go round & round on that too!! we will just have to agree to differ...Finn is naturally creative & loves to express himself through drawings & film making...this i encourage & nurture...being creative brings Finn comfort, fun & the freedom to express his thoughts & feelings. Finn can remember every word he reads & never misspells a word...EVER!! he is a whizz on the PC & has just started to write little excerpts to go along with the videos he makes. he is learning & acquiring new knowledge all the time...whether at home from reading/watching TV or out and about on the day trips we go on. he loves going into London to visit museums & art galleries etc. though i have to time it so they are almost closing...b/c he can get quite squeally & loud when he sees something that he likes. do i see Finn taking exams & getting a JOB???? no i don't. but do i think he has a potential to achieve!!??? oh more than i could imagine i'm sure!! i get many requests from ppl wishing to purchase originals of Finns drawings but i always say no. But in the future?? who knows?? i like the idea of getting a little book together of Finns drawings as they are very unique, colourful & wonderful (but then as his mum i would say that!!) and giving the proceeds to charity. charitable work is always something i have done (well not as much in the last few yrs i must admit with the Finn Factor to see to...) i encourage in Finn an awareness of the wider world as much as poss. he helped sort out some bags of old toys for a local charity shop the other day...he knows its like recycling...another child gets to play with his toys & the charity shop gets some money to help other out ppl too. of course as with any communication with Finn...its fleeting...but the moments of feeling that he is right there with me & aware are getting longer.

Edited June 3, 2010 by baglady

[baglady]

shall we agree one one thing if at all poss.??!! not to post anything else on this thread as we have took it far from the OP's intended discussion??? if either of us feel the need to have another round we could post a new thread somewhere else. i do respect your input & POV even if i don't agree with it.

[baddad]

Yes - happy to agree to differ, especially as your last post has confused me even more about what Finn seems capable/incapable of understanding. I have no idea why you look upon it as 'rounds', though, and would be happy to contribute to another thread if you choose to start one, because i'd be interested to know what, specifically, you don't agree with because that is unclear to me.

 

L&P

 

BD

[baglady]

 

i know i said i wouldn't post here again...but thought it only fair to Sally (OP) that i catch up with the whole thread to see if she got the support/advice she needed....& what did i find???? that she got almost jumped on by several posters making their posts almost a judgement against her personally?? this is the reason i don't last on boards (not just the ones to do with autism either!!) theres always a slight mob mentality...the click of ppl that round on those who they don't think fit in with the way they see themselves...so much for respecting differences!! if we can't do that in respect of how we are as ppl/as parents/as human bengs FGS!! how can we expect our children who have come into the world as Different wth a capital D to be accepted??

 

i was relieved for Sallys sake that a few others incl Mandapanda, Puffin & Yosarian did chime in with some supportive words & CONSTRUCTIVE criticism!!! rather than focusing on the word 'intimidating' which Sally explained (or rather tried to several times) was not actually said about her......

 

Take care all & remember to play nice now

Edited June 3, 2010 by Kathryn
To remove personal attacks

[baglady]

oh dear..........just noticed you posted on this thread again too. somehow i don't think you might take as kindly to my last post.....but as you seem to be someone who does at least say exactly how they feel...maybe you will appreciate my forthrightness or maybe not!!

[Suze]

This topic/thread has the ability to de-rail..........................or be moderated

 

 

please remember to be polite to one another, no direct attacks on other members

 

 

thankyou