Educational Psychologist and Headteacher

[lucyemma]

Hello, I've got a few questions about Educational Psychologists (and headteachers) that I'm hoping someone might have the answer to?!!

 

A bit of background first, ds is 7 and year 3 (on school action, no statement) we were referred by our paediatrician to a private psychiatrist earlier this year as she thought it might help speed up the diagnosis process (she said SALT, Ed Psych take forever in our area). Psychiatrist diagnosed Aspergers and ADHD. Headteacher/senco has told us in no uncertain terms this diagnosis isn't worth the paper it's written on. We are still plodding down the nhs route (after 1 and a half years of getting nowhere).

 

Anyway, a year and a half after the paed requests an assessment the Ed Psych finally saw him yesterday!! However, I doubt very much she will get a true picture of his behaviour from what she saw yesterday and I'm worried how much this will affect her report. Last week ds was not at school (we were abroad as hubbie has been offered a relocation opportunity and they had organised a familiarisation visit for us to look round schools, houses etc). When we got back on Friday headteacher had sent a parental request form regarding the ED Psych for me to sign. Thought this was odd as she could have asked me on Monday morning as she's always in the playground. Went in on Monday and gave her the form and asked if an appointment had been made yet. She said "everything is up in the air at the moment. It could be today it could be sometime soon, we really don't know. We'll let you know when she's been". i thought this was odd so I got home and rang the Ed Psychs office and was told she'd ring back. Later on Ed Psych rang and told me she had seen him first thing that morning . She advised she had arranged it all with headteacher personally last Wednesday and that the headteacher was all prepared with paperwork etc for her arrival at school. She was lost for words when I told her of the conversation I'd had minutes before her arrival. Anyway, she told me she had seen him in a numeracy class, which headteacher often takes and knows very well that he loves this subject and loves being the first to put his hand up and work out sums (his mental arithmetic is amazing). I also know that having been away from school for a week he will always have a couple of good days until he gets back into the swing of things. Ed Psych saw him in playground too and typically he played with a group of kids (first time in a VERY long time) he usually plays on his own.

 

Ed Psych will be coming to our house in a few weeks to discuss things but do they pay more attention to their own observations and school opinion than what we have to say? I'm really worried as I guess their report plays a big part in the diagnosis process.DS also said that Ed Psych did lots of memory games with him (remembering numbers etc). Now his memory is brilliant it's the comprehension and social side that's the problem so I'm hoping she's aware of that.

 

Headteacher has filled out reports of her own observations of him and given them to Ed Psych. This also worries me as headteacher thinks he's "just a manipulative little boy who has clearly never been shown any boundaries". I spoke to her about 3 or 4 weeks ago and she said everything was "fine". I expressed concern that he was still telling me he played on his own at break time and was told "he's fine". I rephrased the question and again was told "he's fine" Asked his teacher the same question the following week and was told he rarely plays with anyone else and she thinks it's because he lacks the social skills to do so. What am I supposed to do when his teachers say one thing yet the person with overall responsibility for the school and special needs doesn't want to acknowledge it? The paed has requested (in August) that headteacher contact her and arrange a suitable appointment for a multi-agency meeting which I guess is where they decide on the diagnosis(????) SALT will be assessing him mid-November so logically this could be arranged for the end of November. However, headteacher refuses to have the meeting till after the annual review of his IEP in February I'm sick of this woman putting a spanner in the works all the time. She wouldn't spend 5 minutes filling out forms for the psychiatrist for 2 months until the psychiatrist rang her and somehow talked her into it and so delayed things there.

 

I haven't seen headteacher since yesterday morning but when I do I'll ask her why she gave me the wrong info. I'm also going to ask for the meeting to be sorted out. If she refuses again can I complain and who to? Don't want to go down this route as I believe it's in everyone's interest to get along and do the best for ds.....

 

Thanks for reading and sorry to rant!!! didn't realise I'd written that much!!

 

Lucy

[justine1]

Hi

I can understand you frustrations at being given incorrect information and the fact the HT and SENCO are not on the same page as you. I do know from experience that they prefer not to tell mums when the ed psych(or anyone else who comes to observe)simply because they may let slip to the child and this will be seen as coaxing the child to either misbehave or behave,depending on what outcome the parent wants.As horrible as that sounds some parents do exactly that

 

Ultimatley,again from my experience,the ed psych doesnt take just her observations into account,they will get info from the HT and class teacher as well as the parent/s.In Sams case we were told about the ed psych coming in,I didnt tell Sam,I met with the ed psych first thing and then she spoke to the HT(who is also the senco) she then went to observe Sam,while she did so she asked TA and class teacher some questions as well.

Her observations included looking at simple things such as any visual planners,where Sam sits in class,how many kids in Sams class and general noise levels of the class, so the focus wasnt just on Sam.Again on the first visit she didnt really interact much with him,as he saw her as a stranger so didnt want to communicate with her. She did ask him to do things but he did what he wanted.

 

Sam is very popular and has friends at school he is also bright,however the things she noticed were that he didnt follow rules(never put his hand up,walked out of the class numerous times)he was clearly not coping with the noise(he was hiding under the tables alot) and he appeared to be angry/confused.

 

The second time she came was after we(the school and myself) put in for a stat assessment.This time she did do more with him,she used about four different tests measuring different things such as the comprehension.The report from this was in a sense more positive in that the school had already got him an LSA (1:1) and had given him his own table with visual timetable/rewards etc.So overall the behaviour seemed better.However the overall report showed huge problems that I wasnt even aware of.Like the comprehension,also she pointed out that although he is emotional and has behaviour issues,they are down to the fact his needs(as a child with ASD) are not being met.

 

If you are meeting with the ed psych its worth saying everything you feel including how he is at home,not just at school.Try not to make the school look bad,as hard as that may be.If she/he doesnt ask "what you want for your son" volunteer this info as I think thats the most important thing xx

[baddad]

Hi Lucyemma -

Got to say I agree with Justine's post above. It does sound as though the HT might be a little bit blunt on some issues, but that doesn't necessarily mean she's trying to put a 'spanner in the works' and it's impossible for me (or anyone else) to comment really on 'context' without actually knowing the full situation. The issues Justine raised about parents 'prompting' children (wittingly or unwittingly) are very real, so Ed Psych's visits often aren't pre-announced. (I remember speaking to one mum a couple of days before she went to a CAMHS assessment for her son. She said 'I hope he has a meltdown this time 'cos the last three times I've managed to get an appointment he's sat there like butter wouldn't melt in his mouth'. While I can appreciate her frustration, the fact that she was holding her son's hand while telling me this did strike me as somewhat inappropriate.)The H/T may have been vague about the fact that the visit's already happened purely and simply because (from your description) the visit had been 'booked' during your unexpected, last minute absence, technically before consent had been given, but quite reasonable under the circumstances.

TBH I do share the concerns and suspicions of many LEA's and school's regarding private diagnoses, and again that is from personal knowledge of some situations where private dx's have been obtained rather than a 'blanket' comment on private diagnosis. I do appreciate how frustrating that must be for parents struggling with a lack of NHS services, but to be honest in my region it has more often been a case of parents unwilling to accept the conclusions of what is generally a very good local service rather than trying to overcome a 'postcode lottery'. Sadly, that undermines those situations where services are ineffective

I think justine has also hit the nail on the head that the Ed Psych will look at the bigger picture rather than relying on the H/T's version of events. Having said that, though, the facts that your son was seen happily playing with other children and engaging appropriately in classroom activities can't be discounted, even if those things are not, in your opinion, the norm. I would add further that generally, in my experience, while children with ADHD may be able to concentrate more fully on tasks or schoolwork they enjoy the ADHD features will still be present. Putting his hand up to answer questions doesn't (IMO) 'fit' that, but shouting out answers, being reprimanded and, eventually, becoming churlish and difficult would.

 

As I said, there does seem to be a communication problem with school and that is always difficult. Putting that communication problem into context, though, is sometimes harder, be that for parents who feel like they're banging their heads against a brick wall, H/T's who might feel likewise, or for outsiders (myself included) hearing only the edited highlights. I really hope the Ed Psych's visit can give some wider and unbiased perspectives that can improve the situation for all concerned.

 

Hope you'll appreciate that I'm in no way suggesting any of the factors highlighted above apply in this situation; they are just general observations on the wider topic that may (I hope) be helpful.

 

L&P

 

BD

[emmasmum]

Just wanted to add that I'm not sure if it varies from area to area, but here the Ed Psych will not and cannot diagnose ASD's.

 

My daughter saw the Ed Psych when she was 6 and she did a range of tests which showed her cognitive ability only. As it was on 73rd centile she had no further involvement.

 

We also had a primary school who denied there was anything wrong. DD was diagnosed aged 14 with Aspergers.

 

In our case we had to get referred to CAMHs to get an assessment for ASD's. CAMHs also referred to SALT.

 

HTH

Carol

[coolblue]

 

 

A bit of background first, ds is 7 and year 3 (on school action, no statement) we were referred by our paediatrician to a private psychiatrist earlier this year as she thought it might help speed up the diagnosis process (she said SALT, Ed Psych take forever in our area). Psychiatrist diagnosed Aspergers and ADHD. Headteacher/senco has told us in no uncertain terms this diagnosis isn't worth the paper it's written on.

 

Lucy

 

Asperger Syndrome and ADHD are both medical disorders, so the HT, unless she is a medical practitioner, is not qualified to comment. She might have been making a reference to the weight a diagnosis carries in the education system, of course. The diagnosis by a qualified medic is important because ASDs and ADHD can be caused by chromosome disorders that might have implications for other aspects of the child's health and development. Ideally the diagnosis should be carried out by/with a paediatrician.

 

SALTs and Ed Psychs are not qualified to diagnose, but some areas carry diagnose using a multi-agency team, including the SALT and Ed Psych.

 

cb

[lucyemma]

Thank you for your replies everyone. I have spent ages wondering why the headteacher told me the wrong information and just couldn't think why she had done it...but after reading Justine1 and baddads comments I totally agree with you both. Looking at it from that point of view I suppose the headteacher was in a bit of an awkward position as to what to answer.

 

She wasn't actually in school today so I haven't spoken to her about the meeting yet but I will do that as soon as I can.

 

Ds has told me a few more bits about what happened in the numeracy class in which he was assessed. Apparently they had to work in pairs and this is something he really struggles with as he can't understand that people have different ideas to him. They tried to get him to work with a partner but he refused. He said he told his teacher that he had counted 25 children in the class, divided it by 2 which left 12 pairs and 1 left over which was him so he didn't have to do it!!!!

 

When I mentioned about putting his hand up to answer the questions in maths classes, I should have said he will put his hand up and shout the answer out at the same time. This is in comparison to other subjects where the teacher says he won't interact much but sits there with a vacant expression.

 

I suppose all i can do is wait until 26th when we see the ed psych and see what she says. After our last visit to the paediatrician she wrote and advised that she believed his problems were likely to be ADHD and/or Aspergers related so I'm hoping that soon someone will decide what the problem is so some support can be put in place for him.

 

Nearly forgot...what actually happens at a multi-agency meeting?

[justine1]

Thank you for your replies everyone. I have spent ages wondering why the headteacher told me the wrong information and just couldn't think why she had done it...but after reading Justine1 and baddads comments I totally agree with you both. Looking at it from that point of view I suppose the headteacher was in a bit of an awkward position as to what to answer.

 

She wasn't actually in school today so I haven't spoken to her about the meeting yet but I will do that as soon as I can.

 

Ds has told me a few more bits about what happened in the numeracy class in which he was assessed. Apparently they had to work in pairs and this is something he really struggles with as he can't understand that people have different ideas to him. They tried to get him to work with a partner but he refused. He said he told his teacher that he had counted 25 children in the class, divided it by 2 which left 12 pairs and 1 left over which was him so he didn't have to do it!!!!

 

When I mentioned about putting his hand up to answer the questions in maths classes, I should have said he will put his hand up and shout the answer out at the same time. This is in comparison to other subjects where the teacher says he won't interact much but sits there with a vacant expression.

 

I suppose all i can do is wait until 26th when we see the ed psych and see what she says. After our last visit to the paediatrician she wrote and advised that she believed his problems were likely to be ADHD and/or Aspergers related so I'm hoping that soon someone will decide what the problem is so some support can be put in place for him.

 

Nearly forgot...what actually happens at a multi-agency meeting?

At a multi agency meeting they will compare notes and decide what needs your son has. If its a multi agency meeting with NHS(speech therapy,paediatrician, audiologist etc) the will decide on the diagnosis(ASD or other) nothing on education.If its a multi agency meeting with education staff( Ed psych,autism outreach etc.) they only decide the educational needs,not give a diagnosis.

 

The two work hand in hand though and do exchange notes.

[lucyemma]

The meeting will include the headteacher so it must be for the educational needs. Paed said she would arrange an appointment for us shortly after this meeting so I'm guessing we'll hear more about the diagnosis then. Thanks for clearing that up for me Justine

[baddad]

Very best for the 26th - Hope you get some answers.

 

L&P

 

BD

[Sally44]

I thought schools were legally obliged to get a parents permission before their children were seen by anyone? I was asked if I was happy for my son to be referred to the SALT and EP and I met with both of them after they had seen my son.

 

I understand you being concerned about his behaviour. But all professionals usually see the child at least twice. If you feel that they should see him at a particular time or lesson or environment or situation that he does not cope well in, then tell the professional that.

 

My son was seen in school, the playground, in the hospital, at home etc. I also took some video film of him doing things I thought were strange, but also of things I thought showed he could not possibly be on the spectrum. What I actually did was give them film that made a diagnosis inevitable. So try not to worry too much.

 

The difficulties you mention of comprehension/inference and social interaction are the remit of the SALT. It maybe worthwhile speaking to them and sending in a follow up letter of your concerns and specifically asking for social communication and interaction to be assessed. There are many children with an ASD who strangely never seem to have this area assessed or looked into. It took me three years to get the SALT to assess my son in those areas.

 

Regarding a private diagnosis. I don't know if this helps as it is slightly different. But the Jim Rose report commissioned by the government specifically says that LEAs should have a legitimate reason for not recognising a diagnosis by a professional. And that "the professional is not employed by the LEA/NHS" is not a good enough reason to ignore it. So that diagnosis that you have stands.

 

I think it would be useful for you to get a copy of the Code of Practise and look through the relevent section for what would trigger School Action Plus in primary school. What are his SEN and has the support provided at School Action met those needs and he is making progress?

 

Infact he may already be on School Action Plus if he has IEPs because you don't get them at School Action stage. So I would check that out.

 

A diagnosis is not an assessment into the child's needs. So that still needs to be done. And if he is not making progress at SA+, then the next stage would be to ask for an assessment towards a Statement. If you applied now, and the LEA agreed, you would get the Statement around April 2011. But they might refuse and you have to appeal. Or they might produce a weak Statement and you need to appeal. In both cases you can add on around another 6 months. As you can see, time flies by.

 

How many IEPs has he had so far and has he met the targets? Are the targets SMART and are they relevent ie. are they concentrating on his difficulties and who is advising them on how to set the targets if he has not been by the SALT and has only just been seen by the EP?

 

Most LEAs have an Autism Advisory Teacher. I would speak to her and ask her to come into school to observe your son and see what recommendations she can make. You already have a diagnosis. This may help support you in seeking a Statement if that is what you feel he needs.

 

Only the Statement is a legally binding document and your son gets the provison that it contains.

 

To re-assure yourself you can speak with the EP and ask if she met with and spoke with the class teacher as well as the Head or SENCO.

 

It is also useful for you to have a diary that you keep and write down everything you are concerned about regarding your son. Eg. that he takes things literally, appears not to understand questions, that he has obsessions, that he does not appear interested to play with other children or that at parties or social events he is usually on his own, that he has a strange tone of voice, or uses repetitive phrases, that he gets anxious about changes in routine or if his expectations are not met, that he is easily distracted, impulsive and gets bored unless it is something he is interested in, that he is easily upset and tends to overreact to things compared with peers and that it takes a long time for him to recover etc etc. Just tailor it to the things you see in your child.

 

As already said you can speak with the EP and SALT and send them in your concerns in writing.

 

You could ask the Head why she feels the MDT meeting would be best held after the February IEP meeting.

 

You can also speak with the NAS and IPSEA and SOSSEN for advice and support.

 

I think that the LEA/NHS process is necessary, and referals usually take around 6 months, and a diagnosis usually takes a further 12-18 months. But as you already have the diagnosis, surely that could be speeded up a little. If anyone is suggesting that the diagnosis you have is not worth the paper it is written on I would get advice from the abovementioned organisations and write to the person who has said that and get them to put that in writing to you.

 

There is also a very useful letter on the IPSEA website which I shall find and PM you. You can also have a quick search through the Jim Rose report as that might be useful.

Edited October 5, 2010 by Sally44

[coolblue]

I thought schools were legally obliged to get a parents permission before their children were seen by anyone? I was asked if I was happy for my son to be referred to the SALT and EP and I met with both of them after they had seen my son.

 

 

They are supposed to, but there appears to be some laxity about whether or not SALTs and EPs are seen as external agencies or not. I've come across several parents reporting that their permission wasn't sought before the EP was consulted, and when they asked about this, they were told the EP was employed by the education department and so didn't count!

 

cb