Is Schizophrenia A Symptom of AS?

[munty13]

I feel like I've really seen some things due to my AS. I've definitely been low. Been in somekind of hole. But I think that the experience may have allowed me to come back with greater insight into how the mind works. Lately, I've been thinking more and more about how we treat paranoid schizophrenia.

 

I don't know a great deal about schizophrenia. I knew a guy once, a friend of my brother's, who had it. That's it. But in terms of personal experience, I figure that a few years ago, if I'd told a doctor about some of the symptoms I was experiencing, I would have come close to recieving a diagnosis. These included hearing voices (mainly insults), constant anxiety - exacerbated by social situations, and a general fear that everyone was out to get me (Catch-22 anyone?)

 

It seems to me that the modern treatment of schizophrenia is that it is an illness, like flu or something. I get the idea, and I could be wrong, that it is treated like somekind of disease. Going by my own personal experience, the schizophrenic-like symptoms were a culmination of the effects after a lifetime of anxiety. These symptoms did not appear like a virus, or somesuch. They formed as part of a process, beginning with my inability to socialise, or follow social norms. Frequent displays of overly aggressive behaviours, born from sheer frustration, have led to years of being ostracized, and disliked/feared by my peers.

 

I used to imagine that if they fear you, they will leave you the hell alone. This in-fact is not true at all. If someone fears something, the chances are they will want to close it down. Society has all sorts of ways to deal with something they don't like - most of these tactics could be regarded as "underhand." They are most certainly not blatant, making it virtually impossible to discuss them, without sounding paranoid.

 

I read an article in Natural Holistic Health, entitled Anxiety Treatment Schizophrenia which states that schizophrenia can be accompanied by a social phobia, or social anxiety disorder (SAD). "Clinicians now estimate that anywhere from 6 to 42% of those who suffer from schizophrenia also suffer from SAD." Intriguingly, SAD is very much seen as a component of AS.

 

What came first? The anxiety, or the inability to follow social norms correctly? Seems to me, it makes sense to think of the anxiety as only being secondary to what is the most important factor - the lack of social skills. Given enough years, repeated failure in social situations, and being subjected to enough scorn (for no apparent reason), will eventually lead anyone, regardless of who they are, to experience anxiety in the next social situation. If this fear was allowed to grow uninhibited, immersed in confusion surrounding as to why social interactions fail, it seems only logical that this will develop into paranoia.

 

I personally don't regard AS as an illness. It's very much a part of who I am. AS makes me - for better or worse - me. I wonder about schizophrenia. Is it really an illness, or is it more likely a symptom of someone on the autistic spectrum?

[bid]

No it isn't. Have you looked at the diagnostic criteria?

 

Bid

[munty13]

No it isn't. Have you looked at the diagnostic criteria?

 

Hi Bid. I am by no means an expert in the field of schizophrenia. I was trying to convey something about schizophrenia which had been aroused by my own personal experience.

 

As far as I can ascertain, clinically, an anxiety disorder does not simply develop into schizophrenia. The differentation between an extreme anxiety disorder and schizophrenia is based, at least as I understand it, on the strength of the delusions and psychosis.

 

I found this guy talking about his experience with anxiety/OCD (I found it on a forum so I hope the guy doesn't mind me using it as an example) He makes the point that "OCD just LOVES to latch onto your worst fears and torture you with them." Certainly, I've been there, reaching for some kind of switch to turn the mind off. Apparently, the guy does not have schizophrenia. He seems to have an awareness that his thoughts, though powerful, are only delusional.

 

I wonder, is it possible that if the anxiety is never abated, and that a person is tortured long enough by their own thoughts, can the strength of those fears somehow "break" the mind? Persons with AS are notoriously prone to being literal, and believing everything that they are told. Well, what if that person, throughout their life, was only ever told horrible things - especially about themselves? Is there a chance that person would go onto believe it?

Edited February 2, 2011 by munty13

[baddad]

Well, what if that person, throughout their life, was only ever told horrible things - especially about themselves? Is there a chance that person would go onto believe it?

 

 

Hi Munty -

 

Yes, absolutely... but that would not be specific to autism, or to literal thinkers, or to schizophrenia. Nor, come to that, are negative thoughts, low self esteem etc necessarily linked to the issues of bullying/abuse you suggest.

 

L&P

 

BD

[BaffledOwl1970]

I've been diagnosed with both conditions - schizophrenia at 25 and AS at 39. I know at least one person who was misdiagnosed with the former when it was actually AS, but in my case I'm convinced the two are present but separate. If my psychotic symptoms were AS I think I'd have them more or less all the time rather than in episodes which medication controls. Also, some of my delusions are supernaturally-based, rather than being derived from other people's insults (though I have those too).

[cait]

I feel like I've really seen some things due to my AS. I've definitely been low. Been in somekind of hole. But I think that the experience may have allowed me to come back with greater insight into how the mind works. Lately, I've been thinking more and more about how we treat paranoid schizophrenia.

 

I don't know a great deal about schizophrenia. I knew a guy once, a friend of my brother's, who had it. That's it. But in terms of personal experience, I figure that a few years ago, if I'd told a doctor about some of the symptoms I was experiencing, I would have come close to recieving a diagnosis. These included hearing voices (mainly insults), constant anxiety - exacerbated by social situations, and a general fear that everyone was out to get me (Catch-22 anyone?)

 

It seems to me that the modern treatment of schizophrenia is that it is an illness, like flu or something. I get the idea, and I could be wrong, that it is treated like somekind of disease. Going by my own personal experience, the schizophrenic-like symptoms were a culmination of the effects after a lifetime of anxiety. These symptoms did not appear like a virus, or somesuch. They formed as part of a process, beginning with my inability to socialise, or follow social norms. Frequent displays of overly aggressive behaviours, born from sheer frustration, have led to years of being ostracized, and disliked/feared by my peers.

 

I used to imagine that if they fear you, they will leave you the hell alone. This in-fact is not true at all. If someone fears something, the chances are they will want to close it down. Society has all sorts of ways to deal with something they don't like - most of these tactics could be regarded as "underhand." They are most certainly not blatant, making it virtually impossible to discuss them, without sounding paranoid.

 

I read an article in Natural Holistic Health, entitled Anxiety Treatment Schizophrenia which states that schizophrenia can be accompanied by a social phobia, or social anxiety disorder (SAD). "Clinicians now estimate that anywhere from 6 to 42% of those who suffer from schizophrenia also suffer from SAD." Intriguingly, SAD is very much seen as a component of AS.

 

What came first? The anxiety, or the inability to follow social norms correctly? Seems to me, it makes sense to think of the anxiety as only being secondary to what is the most important factor - the lack of social skills. Given enough years, repeated failure in social situations, and being subjected to enough scorn (for no apparent reason), will eventually lead anyone, regardless of who they are, to experience anxiety in the next social situation. If this fear was allowed to grow uninhibited, immersed in confusion surrounding as to why social interactions fail, it seems only logical that this will develop into paranoia.

 

I personally don't regard AS as an illness. It's very much a part of who I am. AS makes me - for better or worse - me. I wonder about schizophrenia. Is it really an illness, or is it more likely a symptom of someone on the autistic spectrum?

[cait]

I am not an expert, but i watched my beautiful 11 year old daughter, who has a diagnosis of A.S., A.D.D since the age of 7 develop symptoms of scizophrenia, after her grandfather past away...she was having audio and visual hallucinations,was dellusional irrational and basically she fell apart before my eyes...it was unbearable we spoke to all sorts of pyscaitrists and specialists twice weekly and it climatized with her actually been hospitilized,scizophrenia was ruled out she was diagnosed with asscoiated mood disorder with meds it is now under control thank goodness she is now almost 15 and is setting 9 G.C.S.E next year,,the voices she heard were all insults to her, and she thought everyone in the world was out to get me and her siblings not herself,,,specialists did say though a lot of what happened to her through her pyscotic break could be an A.S.thing so hense diagnosis of associated mood disorder.

[anewman]

I was misdiagnosed Schizophrenic when I had AS. There were a few reasons this happened. My mother had just been diagnosed with Schizophrenia (family history), and she brought home a fellow patient she barely knew as a partner to move in. He was rather troubled and abused me mentally, so I became more withdrawn and depressed, and when I told professionals what he was doing and he and my mother denied it then it looked like I was paranoid when I wasn't. For any doubters eventually I moved back home and he was still there and things went bad again, but that time I managed to catch him on tape. My mother was the sort of person who would probably have had Peter Sutcliffe as a partner and so long as he showed her some interest she wouldn't have been bothered (no disrespect intended to her, tell it as it is etc).

 

I suspect if someone has both diagnoses and they know they never had the positive symptoms of Schizophrenia that the clinician is wrong and covering their back by continuing to say the person does have Schizophrenia to help prevent being sued. They also cannot justify stopping anti-psychotic medication because a) they would be sued if doing so made Schizophrenia recurr, and B ) they could not justify stopping the medication while hospitalising the patient to evaluate them.

 

What is called the negative symptoms of AS look very much like AS. See http://www.schizophrenia.com/diag.php (quoted below). That plus the social difficulties an Aspie has may mean they talk about things or other people in a manner which may make a professional suspect Schizophrenia.

 

Negative Symptoms of Schizophrenia

 

Affective flattening is the reduction in the range and intensity of emotional expression, including facial expression, voice tone, eye contact, and body language.

 

Alogia, or poverty of speech, is the lessening of speech fluency and productivity, thought to reflect slowing or blocked thoughts, and often manifested as short, empty replies to questions.

 

Avolition is the reduction, difficulty, or inability to initiate and persist in goal-directed behavior; it is often mistaken for apparent disinterest. (examples of avolition include: no longer interested in going out and meeting with friends, no longer interested in activities that the person used to show enthusiasm for, no longer interested in much of anything, sitting in the house for many hours a day doing nothing.)

I think Schizophrenia as a condition does exist (even though I was diagnosed with it and knew I did not have it). Paranoia is clearly a survival mechanism, second-guessing other people and the world around has an advantage. I think a certain amount of paranoia is normal and healthy, even though most people would never admit it openly - or probably even recognise such paranoia within themselves. A high amount and expressing the paranoia verbally is Schizophrenia.

 

R. D. Laing http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R._D._Laing had some interesting thoughts on Schizophrenia which are not far removed from the question you ask. Sadly his ideas have become largely discredited, but I think there is a great deal of sense in what he says. Also see:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNRJXX0xYIg

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BV9UCXZG0Pk

Edited February 12, 2011 by anewman