GaryS Report post Posted March 23, 2011 Easy, gainsaying answer... now back it up with something Maybe he can't get the stone tablets on the scanner Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
baddad Report post Posted March 23, 2011 (edited) Quick answer to 'Reflections on America'. yep, valid points all round, and my observations based very much on a 'through the keyhole peek', but I think my observations hold some water too. I think the vastness of America does mean we need to look at it sometimes as a collection of different countries rather than 'states', and that sometimes the borders between those different countries are political, financial and industrial rather than geographical (sometimes a mix of all these and other factors too)... I guess we also tend to think of the states in terms of different countries too, if that makes sense, but tend to overlook that when we're generalising about the whole good ol' U. S. of A. Start talking about race issues and you're probably gonna start thinking about Blanche Dubois and To Kill a Mocking Bird, or Gansta Rap and the Drug Kulcha goin' down in the streets of Compton. Think about industry and you're likely to start worrying 'bout genetically modified maize and environmental pollution or Silicon Valley and all that lovely tech. Think about the economy and your straight into Gordon Gekko and profit at any cost pharmaceutical companies or Hick Hillbillies squealin 'squeek piggy squeek' at sweaty li'l city boys an' strummin their banjos (not a euphamism)... We have so many 'Iconic' (if that's the right word) visions of the place it's hard, and probably wrong, to look at the whole as a whole as a whole as it were, but if you do, and then you generalise it, I think you end up with something pretty close to what i posted in my original post, and if you generalise the whole of the UK in the same way you end up with something pretty close to what I posted in my original post. and in this contect the sweeping generalisations are justified! Can I just add, it's been really nice to have a good old exchange about autism and not-necessarily-autism related stuff without anyone getting upset (as far as I can tell) or taking general observations as personal insults. I'm sure it'll all go t!ts up very soon (sadly, it always does), but so far so good, so let's enjoy it while we can Can I ORLSO just add that I've been really pleased to see that the horrible, horrible 'D' word hasn't reared it's ugly head. I know it's ironic, but I really can't stand to look at the word 'Draconian' without wanting to punch someone's lights out! AND: Nobody's mentioned Hitler yet! So enjoy it while it lasts, and flap, you little F*****S, Flap! (fly, my leetle children of de night ) Edited March 23, 2011 by baddad Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mumble Report post Posted March 23, 2011 Can I just add, it's been really nice to have a good old exchange about autism and not-necessarily-autism related stuff without anyone getting upset (as far as I can tell) or taking general observations as personal insults. :thumbs: I was thinking the same, but didn't want to jinx anything by saying so - but seeing as you've done that, we can now all blame you when it goes horribly wrong. :lol: Don't worry, as long as no-one mentions the war, we should all be okay. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
baddad Report post Posted March 23, 2011 (edited) Ah - just flicked back through the posters and noticed it's a very small demographic, though. Nowt wrong with that, necessarily... From tiny acorns and all that (don't even go there)... And just because this has been such a happy thread I'm going to post the happy song again: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSLn0s2GTaQ And the sun's shining, the birds are singing (okay, not so good for those who get distracted by reflections and chirruping but generally considered a positive thing)... oh god.... think it's time for my medication... http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j85/badders/forum%20pics/MRMALLARD.gif Edited March 23, 2011 by baddad Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bid Report post Posted March 23, 2011 My twopennoth with regard to the changes in societal expectations... Interesting that from the Victorian era through to the 50's there was the popularity of Workers' Education...evening classes, libraries, evening lectures. What happened to this drive from within the socially deprived for self-improvement through education? We now have free education until 16/18...but a growing sub-culture of people who have no desire to improve their circumstances either through education or indeed work. An interesting contrast... Bid Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mumble Report post Posted March 23, 2011 Interesting that from the Victorian era through to the 50's there was the popularity of Workers' Education...evening classes, libraries, evening lectures. What happened to this drive from within the socially deprived for self-improvement through education? Two answers: a)In many ways it's still there, just differently packaged. There are multiple courses, for instance, that parents do attend (and not because they're forced ) regarding, for instance, helping their children in schools (yes, really!). There's also a large adult education 'industry'. I think there's quite a lot of this still happening, but there are issues and it may now happen at different times, e.g. during the day because of: B)It's not deemed 'safe' to leave kids out to play now or let them make their own entertainment in the evening, so many parents are simply unable to attend evening courses due to childcare - and I'm sure there's many other reason (I would be happy to bet that building hiring costs have increased in the age of H&S ). We now have free education until 16/18...but a growing sub-culture of people who have no desire to improve their circumstances either through education or indeed work. This has always been the case - there are a number of very influential studies on this from the 60s/70s/80s. It's also a lot lot more complicated than 'no desire'. How can you desire something you don't know about or understand, something that isn't part of your daily experience? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bid Report post Posted March 23, 2011 It's also a lot lot more complicated than 'no desire'. How can you desire something you don't know about or understand, something that isn't part of your daily experience? But then neither did the socially deprived who benefitted from the workers' education movement. I think it has more to do with the fact that in previous generations, when the school leaving age was 12/14, it was very clear that the only escape from social deprivation was through adult education and self-improvement. The flip-side of the undoubted benefits of the welfare state and free education until 18 has been to remove that self-reliance and self-improvement. Why bother when a feckless lifestyle is rewarded? (And having lived on ASBO Alley for 5 years I can provide any number of examples and direct quotes to back that up ) Not sure how a society regains the balance. Bid Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GaryS Report post Posted March 23, 2011 (edited) Not sure how a society regains the balance. Whatever the answer it will probably take as long to "fix" as it did to "break" and that will take mammoth political will (and impossible amount in real terms). The Genie is well out of Pandora's box Edited March 23, 2011 by GaryS Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
baddad Report post Posted March 23, 2011 (edited) My twopennoth with regard to the changes in societal expectations... Interesting that from the Victorian era through to the 50's there was the popularity of Workers' Education...evening classes, libraries, evening lectures. What happened to this drive from within the socially deprived for self-improvement through education? We now have free education until 16/18...but a growing sub-culture of people who have no desire to improve their circumstances either through education or indeed work. An interesting contrast... Bid Ahhhh... ahhhh... but..... And i'd already been thinking about this after watching that funny little bloke who sits opposite Paul Merton on HIGNFY, you know, whassisname, used to do 'punch', gets sued a lot... ANYWAY: he did a show called 'the doogooders' but with only three 'os' (I'm on a roll and don't want to go back to correct the typo), and it got me thinking about Philatelists Philanthopists, and I think a major difference is that the driving force for change and self improvement, educational reform etc in Victorian times came from a concerned and benevolent middle upper-middle mindset that invested in social improvement (okay for some it wasn't quite that altruistic but the general direction was the right one). Now, that is exactly the sector (or sec-tor, if you're Keith Lemon talking with an American accent) that's the greediest and most self-serving and that the politicians, like it or not, have to court most effectively, ever since Thatch (See, I said earlier don't mention the 80's) managed to convince the working classes that working class was a dorty word and Cahnsil 'ouses were for real bottom feeders (unless you happened to be one of the tory cahnsillers buyin' em up for peanuts, sploshing some paint around 'em and renting 'em out privately for twice the rent you were renting them out last year)... Now that new (not fair to call them 'new' - lets call 'em 'emerging' I know we existed before the 80's cos I was one of 'em in the 60's!) underclass are the ones who've most lost their way, and as they're now into their third, fourth fifth generations (they start early and stop late, generally) it's easy to see why, especially as they've lost their mentors and sponsors (the philatelists philanthropists) along the way... And people used to believe they could escape from that through education, but now education for many poses a bigger threat to financial wellbeing than the vageries of the grey economy and welfare dependency... In the affluent sarf how does ANYONE not holding down a really well paid career live independently? And how does anyone blessed with anything less than a very good brain get a good career? Thay can't all be plumbers and brickies, especially now the building industries on its knees. And how many beauty technicians do we really need, given that most of the girls on these etsates have to resort to knocking their make-up from boots in the first place? Undoubtedly the fact that we have the highest teen pregnancy rates in Europe has something to do with the fact that socially affordable housing is at a premium and pregnancy isn't a negative when it comes to gaining access to it. That's not the only reason of course, but that, and the 'normalisation' of teenage pregnancy and single parenting must be factors. Let's face it, there aren't any real disincentives that would make much sense to an individual already stripped of any aspiration or hope and who lacked the wherewithal, academically and socially, to see any further than the end of their noses, is there? Bumoles. I was quite chirpy earlier but now I've gone and ranted myself into a big black hole Anyhoo - to recap (and I'm not really in a big black hole, just sort of 'a bit less chipper than I was an hour ago', but that was probably gonna happen anyway and is healthier in the long run!) It's the people with the money that have changed most since Victorian times - well that, and the rats and the wooden teeth and stuff - and after all that effort put into creating the underclass and social climate and lack of incentive and sense of hopelessness, they've now convinced the rest of us through Tabloid newspaper hate-mongering and EVIL divisive political manouvering into putting the boot in on their behalf. Agggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh My heads's exploded! I, BTW, don't 'blame' the people at the bottom of the pile, but I don't think they're blameless either. I think the notion of 'self help' has changed into 'help yourself' and they (we) shouldn't have let that happen. Faced with the prospect of 75 hrs + per week in the sossidge factory so you can rent a grotty little bedsit or shared room to rot the rest of your life away in I can fully understand why a belly full of arms and legs and a nice two bed flat might not seem such a bad option. If we want our kids to see beyond that we've got to provide them with vision (and NHS glasses?) to do so, and at the moment we don't. And now bringing it back full circle, that is not the fault of our schools and teachers, or, entirely, of 'the system'. If this is third and fourth generation apathy then it's filtered down from two or three generations above, and they need to put their hands up and hold themselves accountable too. For our kids to come out of school with expectations and hope they've got to be in school in the first place, and that's not the role of the local authority or anyone else to make that happen - it's down to mums and dads. And it's also down to mums and dads to tell the kids it's not on their terms, and that it can't all be sandpits and playtimes. If parents spent half as much time going to PTA meetings and helping out at school fundraisers as they do moaning about how badly their kids are being let down they might find things would improve all round, and they might find that their opinions carried a little bit more weight too. All stand, please: There'll always be an England.... etc etc .... Edited March 23, 2011 by baddad Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bid Report post Posted March 23, 2011 (edited) Yerse, the idea of social responsibilties and duties going hand in hand with social position has largely disappeared... And, depressingly and topically: the obligatory girlie is pregnant in my eldest DD's year, just as they start their GCSE exams. It makes you despair at the sheer waste My DD is planning to do 5( ) A levels and go on to do a degree in Speech and Language Therapy, all going well. She is excited about her future, and all its possibilities. This other poor girl has already been thrown out by mum, will end up in a flat (I could even predict in which road on our estate), and probably have a few more kids before she is 20. They go to the same school. Mind you, we even had the obligatory pregnant girl when I did my O levels in the early 80s... Oh god, now I'm really depressed too... Bid Edited March 23, 2011 by bid Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
baddad Report post Posted March 23, 2011 Yerse, the idea of social responsibilties and duties going hand in hand with social position has largely disappeared... And, depressingly and topically: the obligatory girlie is pregnant in my eldest DD's year, just as they start their GCSE exams. It makes you despair at the sheer waste My DD is planning to do 5( ) A levels and go on to do a degree in Speech and Language Therapy, all going well. She is excited about her future, and all its possibilities. This other poor girl has already been thrown out by mum, will end up in a flat (I could even predict in which road on our estate), and probably have a few more kids before she is 20. They go to the same school. Mind you, we even had the obligatory pregnant girl when I did my O levels in the early 80s... Oh god, now I'm really depressed too... Bid It says a lot for B's school that there's just the one. There are primary school's that can match those kinds of statistics Yes, i'm exaggerating slightly - but only slightly. I'm sure she will do very well with S< - she always did like the sound of her own voice! Depending on the mum 'been thrown out' might not mean 'been thrown out'. Even with a bun in the oven those flats are still oversubscribed, and those with 'no fixed abode' get first dibs. If that sounds cynical it's not, it's just the reality these days. I hope that is what 'been thrown out' means, but sort of don't, iykwim. Not that the poor wee thing should be estranged from her mother and out on the streets, of course, but more because if that had been the reality and the consequences of not getting the idiot spotty herb she went with to wear a banger or of her not remembering to take her pill, and had she known the real consequences, maybe she wouldn't be where she is now. Let's hope she's one of those with the reserves to get herself out of the hole she's gonna find herself in. She might make a great mum and the baby could flourish. Statistically it's not that likely, but it can and does happen, so lets keep everything crossed. L&P BD PS: Please don't tell B what I said about her liking the sound of her own voice.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dm2010 Report post Posted April 3, 2011 Easy, gainsaying answer... now back it up with something Got round to this one very late. Actually I was incorrect, the date was 1200 BC. http://www.thecaveonline.com/WORLDHISTORY/ENRICHMENT/egyptianscribe.html The following is a letter written by the Egyptian scribe Nebmare-nakht to his student Wenemdiamum. "I spend the day instructing you and you will not do your practice at night. You follow the path of pleasure. You sit with your friends, you travel and visit with scoundrels and vagabonds. You sit with idlers. Do not do these things. What are they for? You waste your life!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dm2010 Report post Posted April 3, 2011 And here's a few more "I see no hope for the future of our people if they are dependent on frivolous youth of today, for certainly all youth are reckless beyond words. When I was young, we were taught to be discreet and respectful of elders." (Hesiod, 8th century BC) "The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers." (Socrates, 3rd century BC) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
baddad Report post Posted April 3, 2011 (edited) Hi DM2010 - Yes, totally agree that there's always been a generation gap / communication breakdown, but I do think the situation now goes beyond that. If you've got any historcial evidence of (i.e.) Socrates having the cr*p beaten out of him by his students or having chairs thrown at him for asking for homework assignments to be handed in... Yes, parents have always 'despaired' of their children and children have always thought their parents/elders BOF's, but weighing that up against a universally available education system that - however flawed - has more to offer and more ways of offering it than ever and seeing educational standards slip suggests there's more going on than generation gaps and communication breakdown. L&P BD PS: Dunno what the average life expectancy back in Socrates day was, but I suspect we may well be looking at different defintions of 'children' too. Edited April 3, 2011 by baddad Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dm2010 Report post Posted April 3, 2011 (edited) Well there are the records of the apprentice boys riots. Although it was a pesky adult who didn't pay his bill causing the initial problem. Boston Massacre 1750 The incident started when a wigmaker's apprentice, Edward Gerrish, complained to local army British soldiers that a man named John Goldfinch had not paid his bill. Goldfinch ignored these claims, but Gerrish returned later with a small crowd. The tension grew. The crowd grew, shouting insults at the soldiers, and as the evening grew later an estimated 300-400 people surrounded the troops and pressed them into a tight circle. The soldiers fired their muskets under duress and killed five colonists. And also Socrates does say that the students "tyrannise" their teachers. Whatever that means it can't be good. Not that the Egyptian adults were any better - ancient texts describe when workers were not paid their wages and downed tools - the first recorded strike in history ! Edited April 3, 2011 by dm2010 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
