People not understanding your work ethos

[amberzak]

Do you find that people don't really understand your work ethos at times? I am doing a masters course at University, that will lead to teacher training. I was in school last week and had notes that I need to submit. I'm now sitting here rewriting these notes up neat, and my husband is questioning why, especially with the amount of work I have to do. He is saying that they won't expect my work to be neat. And I and trying to explain to him that that doesn't matter. It has to be neat for me. I will redo an entire piece of work just for one error. People at Uni don't really understand this ethos either. It's almost OCD.

 

And I can't stand it when a teacher said 'just get this down quickly, you don't have to be neat'. If it's in my book, it has to be neat (or as neat as I can make it, anyway).

 

Does any one have similar ideals about their work?

[LancsLad]

I think there are two very different contexts here and you have to decide which one do you work in. The easiest way for me to explain this is to explain my thoughts in relation to my own area of work design as I think it is a lot clearer here.

 

Firstly I have always wanted to produce high quality work. When I was a child and a project at school interested me and had to be done in a school exercise book I was very reticent to start, would much rather have some scrap paper to start planning and wait untill I got home to start the 'real' thing. This real thing might take many hours compared to my peers who needed half an hour to finish off, but that was the way it had to be for me, the way I was most comfortable doing the work. The question was could I carry that attitude on into mt adult life?

 

The answer is a lot of the time you can, but there are many times it can be a real problem. I will expand on this a bit as it might be of interest to others on the forum as well, both adults and teenagers with ASD and also their parents. I am personaly trained as a garden designer and landscape architect. I would like to use these two areas in a professional context to highlight my points and how individuals might relate to my work.

 

In the first example I am asked to develop a master plan and go away and do my best work and turn up at a clients house with the work. In most situations this blows the client away as the quality of the presentation will be extremly high. The client is very pleased, is this a good thing? It is for me if I win the work and my reputation is enhanced, on a more subtle level what if there are a few things in the design which the client doesn't like. In some ways by me making a very slick presetation I am reinforcing my credentials and taking up a powerful position when I do this my designs very rarely get questioned, and in this instance the client might not like an aspect of the design but often will not say anything, I am not sure if this is good. I will use this tactic of high powered presentation work for good reason in some circumstances. A good example might be a design for an outdoor area at a primary school. In such situations I am very aware that design by commitee made up of non design experts can be a nightmare. In scenarios like this people want to have a say but have no idea of implications cost, health and safety etc.. people reading this might not respect this but in such scenarios fixing a design and simply getting it accepted in full is almost always the best option. One way to do this is produce imaculate work, people feel you have worked really hard, thought things through and respect your authority in decision making.

 

The time we spend working and the level of presentation really comes to play in very professional scenarios. There are two conversations happening here and the percieved time aspect is really important. When I work freelance there are a number of ways I can construct the contract and one way is on a time based system. For example a client asks me to develop a range of ideas for a entrance area to their office building. The first call is what do they see as 'range' and I make a decision on 4. I then spend 10 hours on each concept and draw them up to a pretty good standard, what is the clients reaction. Two of the concepts they imediately dislike so that is 20 hours of wasted effort, the second concept there are a few good points which can be lifted, they like the seating concept so there might be a couple of hours value in this one. The last concept the like in principle but they want me to develop this further so they might see the higher level of presentation as a bit pointless and that there are 5 hours of value in this. In truth the client has got 7 hours value for them in the work, they have to give me a little scope to explore and so a compromise might be 15 hours worth of value. If charged at a very competitive rate this might be £500 for couple of days work. The problems start when the truth is in the first instance I made the decision to spend 4 or 5 days working on the project at my standard and expect £1000 to cover my time!

 

Using the same scenario I am not too sure what the client is thinking when he like the seating concept from one design idea and wants me to develop one of the ideas further. A good idea would be to sit around a few layout pads and knock out some rough sketches to clarify the thought in the clients head. When I know I am getting close I am not going to carry on rather I need the work so will break with words such as "I am pretty sure I have a good feel for where you are coming from on this" and will carry on the work in my own time, I possibly already have the final idea in my head at that point. In this scenario I need to be able to work fast and freely and make the process feel very open and loose so others ideas can be developed, a very different style.

 

I go away and produce what I consider to be final concepts, in many ways these need to be of a level to assert my authority as a designer as in the school scenario. If I have produce high level presentation work for my initial concepts and they have been modified in the past in many ways I have shot myself in the foot, my new work will not have as big an impact and as a result will be more open to challenges. At that level the client will often think that I might not have listened and work could keep going round and round in circles with me trying to negotiate a final concept and getting little in the way of fees coming in, a nightmare scenario for the freelancer.

 

Amberzak what I am highlighting in my area of specialism is there has to be at a professional level a gradient of presentation levels, this has to be matched to a time implication which is commercially competitive. That is in the interest of clients and it is also in mine. I have worked professionally and have returned back to university and been in a reasonably unique position in respect to my peers on a masters course who have very little professional experience, they have more of less besides the odd internship been in the education sector. The standards of their work is a massive issue i can see them having in their formative years, they simply do not get it. On one level their presentation levels are far too weak and sloppy, and though their ideas are often good it will be hard for them to instill confidence in experienced clients. At the other end of the scale we have perfectionists who think it is all about them. This likewise does not work with clients, the real world is about working relationships and being flexible. Often these people are one paced and fill large amounts of their time doing their work. This sounds fine as long as they only charge a competitive rate, after all its there choice, in truth it is not. The choice of worker is that of the client in the first instance. Clients know on any project there will be crisis time, points where we need to get this done by tomorrow morning for a presentation at 10:00am, tonights going to be an all nighter scenarios. Perfectionists are an absoloute nightmare in such situations, they set off working and as the sun comes up they are not even half way through a piece of work, at 7:30 they say it will be ok, at 8:45 they are not sure if they can do it and sound like they are falling to pieces. At 10:30 they are not in the room by 11:00 you are watching the presentation from another competing group at 12:00 you know they have it at 1:00 the perfectionist turns up with the most beautiful design and asks you can't you please show it to the client, and you tell them it doesn't work like that!

 

The two contexts are do we work in 'our world' or the 'real world'? When we are at school and in many areas of education we are allowed to work in our world, this is ok up to a point. The first problem many of us with ASD come across is the time issues based around perfectionistic traits, we take ages to get things done. This is ok up to a point, there is nothing wrong with spending 5 years on a book if it turns out to be a best seller, this might be more viable in commercial aspects than knocking out half a doozen summer romance paperbacks. This approach however might not be as good if you want to be a journalist and work in the newspaper industry. Coming up with 1000 words in an hour on a broadsheet might be a real cahllenge for a perfectionist though they might make a good investigative journalist. One proviso I would say on time I love real live scenarios, working with and in front of people in a fixed time. In such situations I know I am good, very good and as such people get an understanding of what I can really do in an hour, this helps dispell some myths around my work. If before i have said I worked for a couple of hours on something many would dismiss it and say he's been up all night. When they see me work live they can then accept he is good and very fast. A good question to ask yourself would you welcome live situations or not? The answer to this question will tell you a lot about the nature of your work.

 

The second issue with many perfectionists is a protectionist attitude to their work. These individuals often value their work in respect to time, I spent all night on this to make sure it was just right, and so they are often very poor at critisism when it is valid. Points raised such as I don't think the landscaped entrance to the office block will work because it needs to have access for emergency vehicles, will go straight past them and rather than accept good points and modify their work they very often defend it, their reputation goes out of the window and they loose the work. When we have a mindset of I must not make a mistake often that leads to a similar mindset in respect to the work, the reality is we all make mistakes and things can always be improved.

 

The third point is do we come across as a flexible person when people look at our work patterns. Whilst many would say that design is a pretty unique area and a lot of this night not apply to the areas I work in, I would differ just think design is more implicit an example, the area of flexability transcends everything. Amberzak a lot of this even at university is about working relationships. When I was younger I was aware that my working practices of always having imaculate work at the very highest level was very disconcerting for others around me, this was great because they were my peers and I felt blowing them away was a good thing, I am a very competitive individual. I then started to realise that at times I also blowing away some of the people I was trying to impress the important people at which my work was directed. This kind of manifested itself in shallow smile and little in the way of comment. Arrogantly i thought that my work was simply over their heads, it could have been sometimes. At times howver very distinguished experts came across in this way and what I believe they were picking up on was in fact this lack of flexibility. Some of this is misplaced some of it not. When we work professionaly it is important that we understand how we project ourselves to others and our work and the way we go about this is a big factor in people making decisions about us and first impressions often stick.

 

In answering your points I think my approach to my work has matured over time it had to. I think it is very important that we develop levels in our work and we deploy or levels within the context of any scenario. For someone such as myself this leaves me feeling uncomfortable a lot of the time. I might produce 6 hours worth of 'loose concept sketches' and would like to have spent 30 hours on the project but know the garden client hasn't or is not prepared to pay for that. As such I have to reframe the work in my mind and be positive as I am going to use it to pitch for further work and so I have to see it as very good 'loose concept sketches' know I work fast and so believe I am offering good value to the client. This is all about understanding this is not simply 'my' work, rather it is 'our' work the client played a role in setting up that context. This I think is a very big step to take. University often does not play this me and our scenario out very well, it should do. In my experience they should be far harder and saying to perfectionists 'that is not appropriate' you will not be able to work like that in the real world. They do not take this line as their get out clause is there is always a role for perfectionists who want to spend hours on their special projects but in reality there are very few of these opportunities, and that is something as perfectionist we need to think through very carefully. I will use a final design based scenario to illustrate my point.

 

There are times within my professions for that special piece of work. One example might be a very large scale project which needs to go out to public consultation. There could be a few million pounds worth of project all needing the support of the public through planning. In such scenarios putting a reasonable amount of money into the presentation pot will be seen as worth it. For example a window of 6 weeks to produce a set of 4 images to go on public display and be central in the consultation documantation. My experience of a lot of perfectionists is this is where they want to come into things doing the special work, where they can really display their talents and importantly be given the time to do so. I ask this question as someone who has worked his ###### off throughout this project having my ideas knocked around in the early stages, winning the work from 3 other groups going to hand this over at this final stage? This is the problem for a perfectionist mentality, they see example of what they want to do and recognise that people must work in this way so why can't they? What they fail to see is process and the relationships which need to be built along the way. There might be the organisation who does all this fronting up stuff and in the back of their office they have a guy or girl who does this intense work. The truth is these people ever really have ownership of the thing, they are simply specialised backroom staff. They might see the work printed but they will not be at the final wine and cheese presentation to bask in the glory. For many with ASD this might sound an ideal scenario it might well be, but many I suspect feel undervalued and have low self esteem as a result.

 

My initial point is there are two contexts here and which one do you want to work in. At a personal level Amberzak I made the decision I wanted to work in both, why because I felt my design ideas, the things I wanted to say were strong enough and as a result i wanted full ownership of my ideas and work. It was easy to say this but it required massive compromises on my part and one of those was split up a lot of my perfectionist menatality and comparmetalise it into brackets which related to the real world. Did this mean I threw something of myself away, the answer is no. There is still the compartments at the top where I work at my level how I want to at my standards. In a comercial setting this bit of me does not come out to play very often, through no choice of my own, but that is how it is, when it does it can be well rewarded both emotionally and financially. Will all people with ASD be able to do this, compartmetalize their abilities on levels and work with them, I suspect not. Failure to do so might be a strong indication of OCD and as we know this can be very destructive.

 

At this stage of my life I am in the position due to pensions where I can take a career break. The feelings behind this was to do more work at my level which many might see as a good thing, the perfectionist in me was geting fed up with compromises. What I am finding is that this approach comes with its own issues. As I get away from a comercial world and do not have to work at lower levels I am finding the perfectionist side which is an ingrained element of my personality is starting to get a hold again. Is this leading to more work of a high calibre or not? In reality the dilema of the blank piece of paper and a feeling of "is that idea good enough to even warrent recording" and as a result hesitation is coming back. My conclusion for me is perfectionism is not something I should be neautral about in my life rather it is there always will be but I need to work against it on almost a daily basis otherwise I am facing the prospect of never getting anywhere near reaching my potential.

 

I know this is a long reply but I hope it helps a little.

[darkshine]

Do you find that people don't really understand your work ethos at times?

 

I think people may find this upon inspection of their own work ethos in comparison to someone else's - including the other way round as some people just may not understand the people who work hard and to a high standard (I've been this person once or twice - just as I have been the high standards person).

 

I will redo an entire piece of work just for one error. People at Uni don't really understand this ethos either. It's almost OCD.

 

The reason some people won't understand is because... its almost OCD and there's nothing wrong with it sometimes, and in some situations its a very useful skill to have. But, you gotta admit that sometimes writing out pages and pages of notes can be a waste of time when performed with such a high level of standards and perfectionism.

 

And its this point that I really understand as I too used to rewrite a whole page if I made an error, smudge, incorrect looking letter, spelling mistake or anything else that could detract from the rest of the page - even if it was the last word and I spelled it wrong, I'd have to rewrite the whole thing.

 

Over time, and because I wanted to address this in my own studies as it was wasting time that could have been spent doing something else, I have adjusted my perfectionist standards slightly. I will rewrite if I make a bad error in the top 3rd of the page. I will just put a simple line through words I didn't spell right or where I was saying something while writing and randomly put a word I just said on the page instead of the words I was thinking.

 

And an important thing! When you are asked to submit notes, the teachers aren't looking for a perfect set of pages, they expect some crossing out and some change of thoughts as new information makes people adjust what they originally thought and stuff like that - so they'd probably look more authentic with a few mistakes - according to my created rules I allow myself up to approx 4 errors on something like notes (perfection isn't vital for notes) and if it was a hand written essay, I'd allow myself maybe 2 errors but that would depend on the degree of error and how messy it looked.

 

And I can't stand it when a teacher said 'just get this down quickly, you don't have to be neat'. If it's in my book, it has to be neat (or as neat as I can make it, anyway).

I know what you mean about not wanting to ruin your neat book

 

So for this particular problem - my solution is to use a scrap book for quick messy notes and rewrite later into my main book - it allows freedom during speeches hastily jot things down, and because of the rewrite it allows time to think about the notes more, which I feel increases understanding of them.

 

Does any one have similar ideals about their work?

 

Yes - but on balance I've learned that some things are wasting time - you said yourself that your don't do messy notes anyway, so by default they don't really need much doing to them to make them presentable so I think its a case of making sure you target your energy on the right things.

 

BTW - the reason I addressed this in my own life is because it wasn't just study that I did it with - it was anything that I wrote by hand, shopping lists, telephone messages, my private notebooks etc it was getting stupid - I figured that the important thing is to be able to write neatly when it matters and not all the time.

 

As a side question - say you have to make notes on a chapter of a book - do you find that your notes are almost as long as the chapter itself? This is my main time wasting issue - it do it consistently because I feel the need to have everything I could possibly need written down... Still haven't worked out effective note-taking just figured out that I don't need to do a work of art in my writing so much as I used to. I'm a total perfectionist and I find it a battle to not let that rule, because I definitely know that sometimes I've wasting time with perfection when I could have been doing other things

 

Best

 

Darkshine (who checked this message three times for spelling mistakes, text arrangement and errors before posting) Old habits die hard

[LancsLad]

As always Darkshine you have raised some really good points and put this issue into your own perspective. I think what is good here is that you opperate in an area which is directed more at written outputs in comparison to my own which is very graphical.

 

A few comments on effective note taking strategies. An issue I have with ASD is in extracting the gist of a story. In my experience I see everything in the same level of detail, and that level is pretty high. This has a real advantage in that it helps me solve complex problems which have many components to them, I can work in a very holistic way. This way of seeing things comes with a very big problem though and that is an inability at times to extract the salient points.

 

A big problem for me is taking something which I might have designed and could easily spend two or more hours talking through and having to do a 10 minute presentation on it. I suspect this is a bit like reading a book and having to write the summary on the back page, I ask myself surely there are not that many wasted words inside the cover by the author, how could you be so disrespectful and ignore 99% of them. Note taking is a similar problem originating form I suspect traits conected to the ASD condition.

 

A few things which have worked for me which might help. The first is really question how often do you go back on your notes. I suspect there are so many people who make massive amounts of notes and then never use them in the first place. I have had the advantage to have been to university, then develop my skills in work environments to a pretty good level and then gone back into an education environment for 6 years. This second time around I witnessed behaviours which often I considered inappropriate and at times note taking is one. I would try it with certain people and realise there were no real key points rather the person was trying to get a general feeling across, the right behaviour in such circumstances was to sit back and take it all in, note taking is therefore counterproductive. In such scenarios I would take a digital recording of the session to be easily loaded on my computer and if anything quick notes on the session in relation to time, for example note being 'native plants waters edge 32min'. In this way I can go back and find the section really quickly start at about 28min in. This helps resolve the issue when you are furiously trying to keep up and the point builds and often you miss the key point and only get the lead in, because you are sat back and waiting for the punch line so to speak and note this down in general terms.

 

In trying to reduce the volume of note taking providing physical structure on a page might help. When I design the drawings naturally come first I am then left to anotate up the work. Often this gives me limited space and provides an artificial level of discipline. In effect I might only have 50 words to play with and they therefore all become important. You would not believe it looking at my posts but I am fairly good at getting to the point in that format. In contrast I see this format as completely open ended and with no structure on the forum I lack this discipline. One idea might be to draw rectangles on a blank page and write the notes in the box created. This is of course artifical but the limited space makes you think a bit more and forces you to limit what you write.

 

The thing to remeber is that note taking is a skill at the end of the day and we can get better with practice. A simple practice might be an A4 page and 8 boxes of limited size each one representing a story on the TV news. In the box write the main points of the news item and move on to the next box for the next news item.

 

My final general point is that in extracting the main points from a story or session we often have a complete blind spot, and that is when the point in hand is something emotional. In my experience very often NT's are simply not that interested in the details, what they are more concerned about is what would it feel like. I think at times NT's give of information on two channels which transmit simultaneously. One is all about the details and factual information, and we can be very good at tunning into that channel. The other is an emotional channel which transmits what they feel about a topic, this channel tells us if they think the information is important, is it boring, do they agree with it, how does it realte to other things in a heirarchy etc.. I know I can miss these messages sometimes if I am too focused on the detail. Sometimes this channel is the key broadcast, I know this is the case often when the details are really fragmented and don't make much sense. When I go back on the digital recording of a session I realise that what was happening was all about a lecturer for example saying 'he thinks the modernist period of design is overated and a load of ######', my notes however might just have two or three names of designers and a couple of loose dates because I was only listening to details and factual information, the subjective emotional stuff passing over my head. In these scenarios it is therfore important to sit back and try and take the whole thing in.

 

In the world of work this ability to tune in and take emotional notes is really important. When I meet a client I will take notes and whilst some of this is factual details it is important that I make notes about what makes them tick at an emotional level, this is not easy and requires real perception and attention to detail, recording conversations helps in this respect because it gives you a few goes. When I have done some complex work for them full of details and I am trying to get them to approve it and only have a limited time otherwise I would bore them to death by mirroring these emotional notes back to them by simply explaining the feelings they are looking for works really well. NT's do this all the time we would go into a restaurant and think someone we know might like this place and try to remeber everything which is on the menu and specials board along with prices as details aimed at selling the place. Other people might simply say the "food is rich, the atmosphere warm and intimate". Learning how to opperate at this level is important for a lot of people.

 

I think the big issue here is do we see our perfectionist behaviour as something which can and only exists in our own ASD world, if that is the case it can and does for me provide a lot of comfort. Darkshine you are right that some things are simply wasting time and even in our own insular worlds we possibly have better things to get on with. At another level I would never consider my own AS to be a disability rather it is a condition I carry with me. My perfectionist traits now that really can be a disability in many circumstances and if I let it express itself fully I am significantly disadvantaging myself. If I was paralized from the waist down and decided to crawl around everywhere I would likewise be disadvantaging myself if I was trying to lead a productive life in the outside world. A good solution would be to get some appropriate tools, a wheelchair, and develop my skills, build up my arm strength and balance, and get on with life. I see perfectionism in the same way, it is there but we should not become disabled by it, rather we need to find and develop effective strategies. I believe my strategies have in many cirumstances made me above average in this particular area, but then again the record marathon time for a wheelchair user is somewhat quicker than the equivalent able bodied record. Weaknesses can become strengths.

 

Just a few thoughts to keep the post moving.

[amberzak]

I got a feedback today. I got the top mark in the class.

 

I am perfectly okay with criticism. It's something I was taught on my first degree, and actually I crave good criticism.

 

I struggle when note taking. And sometimes the teacher will say things like 'you don't need to write this down because I have it as a work sheet' and I still feel the need to write it down.

[darkshine]

You would not believe it looking at my posts but I am fairly good at getting to the point in that format.

 

You did make some really good points though

 

As always Darkshine you have raised some really good points and put this issue into your own perspective. I think what is good here is that you opperate in an area which is directed more at written outputs in comparison to my own which is very graphical.

I think the 'written outputs' in my case were only learned as a way of expressing myself as a kid - but its been useful as I've got older as I can use it in a way that people would learn to understand me and hopefully relate to in some way.

 

I'm a bit of a jack of all trades me - I can do a bit of everything - I did graphical design at school (the whole class failed as the teacher was never there) but despite that I still use the skills when something crops up, I have an eye for organising objects in such a way as to make them look pleasing on the eye (whether in the home, garden, or just organising one of my endless and unfinished projects)

 

I got a feedback today. I got the top mark in the class.

 

I am perfectly okay with criticism. It's something I was taught on my first degree, and actually I crave good criticism.

 

I struggle when note taking. And sometimes the teacher will say things like 'you don't need to write this down because I have it as a work sheet' and I still feel the need to write it down.

Well done

 

Glad my response didn't offend you - partly I'm interested because I have struggled with what you don't mind doing (I do mind doing it and think sometimes perfection can be put aside a little).

 

As for concise notes? I haven't learned yet - I'm trying but as LancsLad says I'm often stuck on the details which includes the entire content of most chapters... And on the course I'm doing now, which requires a subjective approach this is very difficult as I try to somehow make the facts and the subjectivity (that I am lacking in as my opinions are too broad and not fixed) work together. The annoying thing is that for each course I sort of learn how to write better notes, but when the subect matter changes I sort of have to re-learn conciseness again

 

I often find that I understand a course I do about 6 months after I've finished the thing - seeing the big picture is a skill I struggle with over and over - but only in some situations... other times I see more than other people see and can be intuitive and exact in my directness at seeing things - unfortunately with the subjects I study this is not the case but what the hell I try anyway

[trekster]

Well done on your top mark.

 

Personally if i had to hand in a perfect piece of work it would never get handed in. Hard to tell if i can be a grade A student on my coursework this year but i nearly was on 1 piece of work during my undergraduate degree.