son so jealous of his brother

[Dijac]

Hi,

 

The children here in France are still off this week. And my husband is away this week. But what I am finding so difficult is how much Will (12, AS), hates his brother (10, NS). He says we love him more than we love him. He almost spits his name when he talks about.

 

He maybe has various stuff going on. He is very agitated right now - I am not 100 % sure why, but he is goign to England next month on a 5 day school trip - he had asked to go and had been very excited that he was picked, but I think he is beginning to worry about it.

 

He almost attacked me yesterday when I made us all go for a walk - I have to force him out during the holidays, or he'd just rest in front on the computer, or his ds.

 

Then it was his brother's turn on the computer - and he couldn't leave him alone - I tried to do a bit of gardening, but all I could hear was shouting from the house, and found Will taking a knife from the kitchen drawer to threaten his brother with. When I tried to calm him down, he threw a glass across the room so it smashed. He is almost as big as me now, and he scares me when he is like this. He did calm down evetually, and I took J out to visit a friend - so I guess Will won in the end.

 

He just keeps saying it's J'S fault, and he wishes he was dead - J can be aggravating, and I know all siblings fight to an extent, but is this normal.

 

Will is still very agitated today, but came for a walk with just me no problem this morning.

 

I am worn out, and looking forward to back to school next week. But I am dreading the summer holidays.

 

Diane

[LancsLad]

Diane not sure any of these thought will help but they are given freely.

 

The closest I have been to this sort of scenario is when we fostered two sisters who were the same age apart but a year younger than your two children when we started to work with them. Though they had been through a really appaling background full of neglect at the very worst levels surrounded by alcohol and drug abuse along with prositution their experiences were very different. The older child had been through quite a lot of abuse in a very controlling environment and was much more a victim of her circumstances that her younger sister who was far more robust, had not experienced the worst of it and as a result though damaged didn't carry the same level of emotional baggage and stress in her life. I simply give this rough context to highlight how one saw the world was very different to the other and there was real resentment there.

 

In many ways the older sister could not relate to an adult world, and to be honest why would she it made no sense to her, the rules were totally distorted and on an open forum all I can say is read between the lines here. What she wanted to relate to was a childrens world and as such her only real reference point was her younger sister. The problem was this younger sister was so much more skilled at dealing with the realities of her environment, in fact she was amazingly adaptable and unbelievably street wise, she was not kept in a drug den rather she went out stealing and begging for food clothing etc...

 

Diane I am not trying to draw comparisons with your sons, nor did the older sister have AS but the balance between them might be similar and as such how they relate to each other.

 

In my scenario the older sister for reasons of protection was very controling of her sibling and the younger one was quite resentfull of this, she saw fortunatly no reason for this response. The older one also thought she was doing all the right things by adults yet the respect went to a younger version of her who did nothing in comparisson rather she was acceptable as a child, but unfortunatly she could never be that child without a worry in the world and so was very , very angry and resentful. She was also not in a position to really take it out on adults, she didn't understand the rules and so everything would be directed at the only target she had. Was this frustration justified, in my mind knowing what she was going through yes it was, was the target and means right no, not at all. For months I felt helpless, I knew there was so much going on inside her head and felt if it needs to come out please have a go at me I can deal with it, but it never came my way.

 

We made real progress with the youngets, got her into school, got her hygeine up to normal levels, she could eat with a knife and fork, got her involved in football at which she was very good playing at a level above her age at a major professional leauge club. In contrast progress with her older sister was slow. The breakthrough came when their mother an ex heroin user and prostitute who had not seen them for a number of years was cleared for contact. The problem was she could relate well to this dynamic young daughter who was making progress in her life, her surly, depressed older sister was a far more difficult problem. We got to the stage where the younger one was able to stay over for weekends and eventually after about 8 months moved back into her mothers life along with her new partner and his children. Again this was very hard for the older one to take but with her sister out of the way there was no longer a target nor a feeling of responsibility. They were at different schools because of age and so only saw each other on contact at weekends.

 

At this point Diane we were able to really make progress with the remaining child. The anger came out often directed at my partner I suspect this was all part of the grooming process from men which had taken place, and eventually her personality and the true child from within started to emerge which was a beautiful thing to witness close at hand. Apart they started to understand that they had in fact shared so much of their lives together and that they were the only true individuals who could understand. They started to miss each other greatly and to cut a long story short the older sister rejoined her family after about another 6 months.

 

Looking in from the outside there were real reasons for the frustration and at times anger which was there with one of them. Her behaviour was misplaced and really controlling and the younger one did not like that it was after all now our job to parent her not an 11 year olds. Together though when they shared a common goal like getting rid of a weak social worker they were a formidable force and very close. We found that we had to take time in dealing with them as individuals. The older one always felt we preffared the younger one because she believed deep down I feel she was more deserving of our attention as her own life was flawed. In reality this was not the case if anything I know personally I was drawn to where the needs were greatest. It was hard when one obviously on the surface was more successfull than the other, but that is how we decide to measure success. When you have the maturity of a child you can only measure success and failure in this context. The two girls are now in their early twenties whilst they both made amazing progress we have to measure success based on starting points and I know who had to travell the more difficult path through their childhood looking from the outside though neither was easy.

 

I think some of these issues can take time a lot of time but things will improve as they both grow up. I do not think as adults we should ever accept poor behaviour but we can try and understand it even if we may never know what it is really like to walk in someone elses shoes. Diane my advice is work on them both as individuals but they need to respect that each of them has needs and this is not a power struggle for control and you need to spread yourself out fairly and that includes having time for yourself in the balance of things. This is possible. When we had the two sisters we also had a 17 year old who we were integrating into independant life and a 14 year old boy at weekends on respite from a special school environment with severe behavioural issues. At the end of the day all we could do is try our best and if that was not good enough so be it. Above all we had to remain positive and take strength from the fact that our own relationship was benefiting from the shared experiences. I know your husband is away and I also know how much we needed 20 minutes together at the end of the day to just sit down have a glass of wine and say we somehow go through that well done you!

 

Have belief Diane that you are doing the right thing. Is this normal behaviour who cares. What is the case there is a reason for it and finding that reason is more important than wondering what 'normal' is. Sometime these things are just the way they are. As adults we can provide a strong sense of direction as to ahat is acceptable and what is not, but kids will be kids. I would make sure they have space and make sure everone gets quality time with each other along with time to reflect. Some scenarios work better than other and it might be easier when they are back at school. At other times there needs to be seperation as that can benefit all. But at the end of the day the very best times will be the ones they share with each other and that's what brothers and sisters are for.

 

Best wishes.

[LancsLad]

Since writting my reply and reflecting a little I felt I would like to add something as people will read what I have said and might not fully understand where I am coming from.

 

I feel I have been fortunate in the past along with my partner to have worked with children who have come from some very challenging backgrounds. I think this put people like me in a fairly unique position. Firstly we do not have the same emotional connections as I would as a parent, though it sometimes broke my heart in private to see these kids move on to hopefully better things. The other aspect is I nor my partner are directly responsible for their previous lives and so there is no guilt attatched to our parenting strategies. This is by no means to imply that parents of children on the autistic spectrum should in any way feel guilty about their child having a condition far from it. But I do feel many parents carry around a very false sense of guilt which can get in the way of clear thinking at times. This is very different than me saying anyone out there is guilty of anything, I know and believe I simply carry a genetic condition, my brother might be a carrier as might my son but this is not the fault of any individual simply how the thing is.

 

I am also not trying to draw any direct comparisons between children who have been in my care and any other children out there, they are all unique individuals and come with their own very unique qualities some might be a bit problematic at times but I strongly believe all kids have a lot of good in them. What I will say and I felt this case of sibling rivalry was one such post, that the kids I have dealt with often what they have been through and the position we were in meant that many issues were very clear and easy to understand the underlying behavioural patterns.

 

I think our role also made us very forgiving of children in our care, that did not make us soft far from it. Many a time however I would feel I had been through a lot in my own life but even so how was I supposed to feel sorry in any way for my own issues when faced with some of the things these kids went through. As someone with a lot of issues many related to AS and how it has manifested itself in my life I know I have always behaved in a certain way for a very good reason looking back. I am not saying that behaviour was good rather I can understand it in hindsight. I feel this way when I see many posts by parents about their own children and feel they are doing that for a reason. Often as in this case I might feel I have some knowledge either first hand or as a carer or parent as to what that reason is. Sometimes when the behaviour is very extreme I might not have a clear idea but always come from the side of the child and think you are not doing that for some superficial short term gain.

 

Autistic elements can generate enormous amounts of stress in our lives both as children and adults I know this to be the case from personal experience. The cause of this stress can be very different based on environmental conditions. The case of the two sisters is very different I suspect than Dianes, I sincerly hope so, but stress levels might be very similar. This level of extreme stress can manifest itself in many ways and there are only so many ways in which we can behave. My experience of fostering multiple cases was after a while or by talking to other carers we could come to conclusions that we had seen this sort of thing before and as such we could draw on our own or others previous experiences. To be honest this didn't always work but I would say it did 85% of the time.

 

I know there are parents out there who might not like me using examples such as the one I have, if you can read between the lines when I generalise about some of the kids in our care you will understand reading through their case notes and psychology profiles was not pleasant reading at times. But we had agreed to fulfill a role and that is what we focused on doing.

 

I have also never felt like an expert in any way. Given experiences that people go through I have no right to be called an expert, but have been pushed forwards to help in the trainning of new foster carers as part of induction training sessions. What I do feel is I have a range of experience across a number of scenarios thats all no more no less. I have recently felt that it might be better if I kept out of any parental based posts on the forums, but when no one else answers I find this difficult to sit back feeling I might have a little insight which could be usefull, often I have no real idea if it is or is not as is this case, I think that lack of understanding is partly down to my own autistic traits.

 

After I put up the reply I was not sure nor am I still id it was the right thing to do. If given the choice I felt at one point I might delete it as it could be inappropriate. At the end of the day I can only give an opinion I guess that is why people want to post in the first place they are seeking opinions. Like all opinions it can only be based on my own experiences and understanding. And like all opinions you can take it or leave it.

 

Just a few additional thoughts.

[justine1]

Hi

 

I have the same problem but the other way around in that my eldest,Josh(11), is NT. He has always been jealous of Sam(8 ASD) since Sam was born. When we arrived from the hospital Josh threw stones at him and would constantly pinch Sam's cheeks. Nowdays he just winds him up constantly making Sam cry and throw tantrums. Its so hard.

 

I did not even know how bad it was until last year when Sam's school told me that Sam feels Josh hates him and they feel it may contribute to his behaviour. They (behaviour support teacher at his ASD unit) suggested a few things. One was that they spend at leat one evening a week together doing something like drawing,during this time they have to give each other praise and compliments,nothing negative. The other thing is to work towards something,so everytime they say something good or help each other out they get to put a piece of pasta/coin in a jar,once the jar is full they get to go somewhere they both would like such as themepark or cinema. It needs to be instilled that is not to be competitive and that they should be working together to get the goal.

 

It does work some of the time,but I do find that Josh's age is the problem as he is distancing himself from most family in favour of spending time with friends and his overall behaviour is declining. I am hoping,like you,that things improve. What I can say is I have two older brothers who would half kill each other when they were younger,and although they are not exceptionally close they would always be there for each other and help one another out,thats whats important.

[Dijac]

Hi Lancslad,

 

After reading your post I decided I hadn't picked the best time to have an alcohol free week!! I'd managed 2 days, but had a glass of wine once I got them to bed tonight.

 

He is so Jeckyl and Hyde - they even sat togather tonight, as Jamie has decided he wants to make a Yu Gi oh card collection too, so Will was advising him which ones to get. He does tell me that he can't help himself when he loses it, and I believe him. Jamie finds it hard to understand why his brother gets so aggressive.

 

Justine, Will makes Jamie cry too - although he does tend to cry very easily. He has been upset at school too - but because he was worried about his brother. This all escalated last year when Will was 11, so maybe there is an element of adolescence there too right now. He wants to be the big boy, and Jamie wants to be like him, so copies everything he does.

 

Since they got on a bit tonight, and I have finished my glass of wine I am a bit calmer tonight too.

 

Let's see what tomorrow brings!!!

[Sally44]

I think you need to talk to both boys and give them very clear boundaries of what behaviour is/isn't acceptable.

 

The younger son should not be allowed to tease or irritate his older sibling [i know from experience that my daughter can do that to my son]. And we have it the other way around NT older daughter thinks we love the younger ASD son more.

 

Your son with AS maybe acting inappropriately because he simply does not have the social skills to know what to do about these feelings. He maybe copying things he has seen in films or TV. So make it very clear about what he should do, and give examples, and repeat it over and over again.

 

So if his younger brother is irritating him he should ask him to stop, then come and tell you, and he may need some 'quiet time' alone in his bedroom to calm down. He maybe misinterpretating things.

 

Taking a knife is not acceptable. And tell him why. And tell him that if that happens again there will be punishment - and discuss with him what that punishment should be.

 

Also think about why his anxiety and stress levels are so high. Is there anything [other than the trip], that is making him worried. Ask him. Is he generally okay during holidays, or does he miss the routine of school?

 

I would also add, don't try to do everything together as both children may need different things. For example, my daughter does not want to be taken to places my son finds of interest, and visa versa. I know it is difficult during the holidays, and sometimes we just have to put up with these things. And again explain that to both boys.

 

For your older son, draw a picture with two paths, and explain that if he does down one path [that leads to upsets, arguments, fighting] that that is not going to be happy day for him or anyone else. So show him instead what the happy path would be like. And give examples of how that child deals with certain situations giving examples that have happened to your son.

 

Also talk to him and tell him that you love both your children the same. Ask him 'why' he thinks you love the younger son more. It could be something that seems very insignificant, but which your son thinks is very important.

 

I know that my son reads all kinds of interpretations onto things that we might ask him to do, and says that proves we don't love him. Loving someone is not allowing them to do what they want all day long and never asking them to help out! Explain that a good parent is teaching the child how to be able to look after themselves when they grow up and so they need to learn all these things.

 

Don't know if that helps or not.

 

I know that my own son did run on a very short fuse, and we had incidents of him getting knives and sissors to hurt himself etc. And eventually he did refuse school and became quite ill. So do keep an eye on his stress levels. Talk about the school trip and try to be as concrete as you can about what will happen and try to find out if he has any concerns there.

[Dijac]

Hi,

 

Thanks for your thougths Sally - I decided that making them both walk the dog with me Tuesday wasn't good - so they have been taking turns the last 2 days - a bit of separation does seem to help.

 

Will tells me I that it is impossible for me to love them both exactly the same, and as I won't say I love him more, then it must be because I love his brother more.

 

He had been stressed like this last year, and had threatened to hurt himself - so I do worry what would happen if he was pushed too far.

 

He seems a bit less stressed today, so let's hope it lasts.

 

Diane

[LancsLad]

I can partly see the reasoning of Will when it comes to loving them exactly the same. Its just a case that he does not have the maturity to understand that there are different ways and things we can love in a range of individuals.

 

I general terms I think one of the problems we often have is the concept of 'family'. For some people 'collective values' are of more importance than 'individual values'. I think to some extent there might even be a gender aspect in such viewpoints.

 

I know when dealing with kids in care for example there is often little in the way of family concepts to either act in a positive or negative way, even when siblings come together as a package. As a result in many ways the only option is to work with people as individuals. Is this a good thing? I think it is in the scenarios I have been involved in as this is how the child views things as well. They are seeking individual responses and individual solutions. If there is an issue in having a houshold full of such people is in fairly spliting up your time. We would do this by having 'special time' which was the most important time of the week for the child concerned, nothing absoloutly nothing would come before special time. This can work if there are two of you as the other adult can try their best to crisis manage all other eventualities. I can remeber all hell hitting the houshold and walking out of the door to go for example fishing with a child saying 'special time' sorry, knowing the roles would be reversed some short way down the line. By taking such an approach even the most demanding children were respectfull of each others special time from I must admit possibly a selfish perspective.

 

I raise this point for consideration and ask how do things play out in a scenario where for example there are three individuals who lean towards collective family values and there is one member of the group who sees things from a very individualistic value perspective? Does that make that individual selfish?

 

I am personaly very individualistic but would not call myself selfish far from it. I have been in work environments for example where there has been a predominance of collective values. It has led to comments why don't you want to join in, the answer is I do not need to, I can function very effectivly on my own thank you, I thought we were here to work not make each other feel better about themselves. The truth is people are different and we choose to opperate in different ways and will be more effective in some scenarios and environments than others, and it works both ways. As adults I know we have to compromise at times but it is also important that we can hold our own identity as an individual and to do so is respected.

 

Diane I simply raise the point is it possible that Will simply runs off a different bias when it comes to values in his life, he sees things from an individualistic perspective and that his family concept is based around a collection of individuals who happen to share some genetic components, no more, no less. I know this is how I see my own family. I know I do not subscribe to my family's groupthink philosophy. Is this a bad thing or not? What I do know is that often I am the only one who knows anything about my 97 year old Nan's current medical situation, she will not confide in anyone else. She sees our relationship for what it is two individuals who are respectfull of each other and as such she knows anything she says to me is confidential and so we are very open about things to each other. The rest of the family share groupthink mentality in so many areas and are constantly arguing and trying to score points off each other who is in who is out of favour. In contrast I have no interest in this side of things and what anyone thinks about anyone else. I have a full set of individual relationships of varying strengths with all members of my family and treat them as I would anyone else in life. A lot of people in my family see me as my Nan's favorite a pointless label in my eyes, rather I simply say I feel the two of us have a positive relationship based on mutual respect.

 

Personally I think a lot of my attitudes could be conected to personality or autism or in reality a combination of both. In a adult this might not be seen as a bad thing nor in a very young child. I think there is a point in the middle where we might question this and say you are supposed to be more mature now you are growing up. Maybee its not about maturity but about seeing life from a perspective which is simply in the minority. If that is the case then we might see people in a different light. What I would say is I feel that there is nothing wrong in living your life in a very individualistic way, but you have to be consistent and that does not mean being selfish. I often feel collective thinking can be very selfish in many circumstances and it can transpose unrealistic demands on others far too easily.

 

I think in someones Will's age there is a point where you can start to say if you see life in this way that is fine but you need to work on being self reliant and independant at times, if you do this it is fair that you get treated as an individual and that the expectations to fit in and conform to shared values will be relaxed because we all understand we can be different in this respect.

 

Just a few ideas, really not sure if any of them might stick on reflection and feel appropriate, just speculation on my part, but felt there might at least be some milage in thinking about it, hope this made some sense.

[Sally44]

The difficulties of explaining parental love .....

 

Does your AS son have things he likes eg. watching TV, the computer, obsessions about things such as Pokemon etc?

 

If he does then you could ask him the question - which do you like the most? See what he answers first. If he says the computer, then ask him if it would be okay to get rid of the TV. If he says no, then that shows that he also likes/loves two things at the same time.

 

It only works if he has more than one thing he is obsessed with. I've used this example with my son. He hoards everything and has a personal attachment even to bits of pottery, bottle tops etc that he finds on the street. He won't throw them away because he 'loves' them.

 

Only you know if that approach might work with him. But it is a very good way of making them realise that they too can love/enjoy more than just one thing.

 

A discussion about love and relationships might be useful. We have different types of love for parents, partners, children, friends etc. Does he even know the difference? My son just seems to understand 'family' and 'strangers', and he doesn't even understand how you would behave differently with those two groups of people.

Edited April 20, 2012 by Sally44