Naming a school in part 4

[Sazale]

We got a ###### proposed statement. Managed to get it changed (very easily) to one a lot better that also recognises and provides for her demand avoidance. They went from not specifying any hours to a 25 hour, low incidence needs amended proposed statement.

 

After careful consideration we decided to bane the local lea special school whose remit is physical/medical but will take pupils classed as vulnerable who are struggling in mainstream. It was our only option other than mainstream, which is not working, as all over provision either involves feeding into mainstream secondary or dd was too academic. We didn't want out of area independent provision as its an hour commute each way or residential. Tbh we felt it may not work but hoped it would.

 

The lea sent the papers off to current mainstream and the special school we asked them to. Both have come back with a list of concerns that they have and tbh they are just confirming what we felt but had no proof of. It is due to go to panel in August to see wether there is anything that can be done to overcome the ussues. This has now given us the kick up the ###### we needed to realise our feelings were right and that we need to get the right provision even if this means residential.

 

I'm in the process of contacting 2 independent schools to see if they can meet her needs. I know that there are other children in both these schools funded by our lea so I'm guessing that gives us a better chance as a president has already been set. I'm also hoping that neither school has said yes will also go in our favour.

 

Do you ask the lea to send the papers to both these schools, like they did the other 2, or does it work different when they are independent?

 

Thanks

[Sharn]

Im in similar situation, looking for appropriate school anywhere but strugling big time to find sch for intelligent girl with all her complex needs. I believe A has PDA as well,doesnt seem to fit into As school either.Which schools have you found which you think may be ok?

[Sharn]

Im in similar situation, looking for appropriate school anywhere but strugling big time to find sch for intelligent girl with all her complex needs. I believe A has PDA as well,doesnt seem to fit into As school either.Which schools have you found which you think may be ok?

[Sally44]

Usually you go with a school for the main diagnosis. Our son has a number of different disorders, but his main diagnosis is autistic spectrum disorder. He also has Dyslexia, but due to his ASD, sensory processing disorder and severe/profound speech disorder, he could only access learning in an ASD specific school, but they had to buy in a specialist dyslexia teacher too.

[Sally44]

Tried to edit my post and it wouldn't let me, so posting it again.

 

 

Usually you go with a school for the main diagnosis. Our son has a number of different disorders, but his main diagnosis is autistic spectrum disorder. He also has Dyslexia, but due to his ASD, sensory processing disorder and severe/profound speech disorder, he could only access learning in an ASD specific school, but they had to buy in a specialist dyslexia teacher too to meet his specific learning difficulty needs.

 

 

So I would probably go with an ASD/Aspergers specific school that has both SALT and OT on site [and you need reports that prove your child needs 1:1 SALT and 1:1 OT. And you may find that once those needs are met the demand avoidance behaviours may lessen]. My son also had alot of avoidance behaviours. But he was feeling so bad about every demand put on him, that his avoidance behaviour was understandable when you considered how he was experiencing things. We have noticed a big improvement in his behaviour now he is in a school that can meet his needs. He isn't refusing everything like he used to.

[Sazale]

We received the final statement yesterday naming the lea special school. We are planning on appealing as we don't believe they can meet her needs and neither do they! The sen dept manager and the principal case officer have decided they can.

 

I'm waiting to visit Alderwasley Hall school and Dawn House school in September. They are doable by commuting but any further away would mean defo residential which I'm not comfortable with ATM.

 

The clinical Psych said the same ad you Sally. That in the right school environment there should be a reduction in anxiety and therefore a reduction in demand avoidance.

[bjkmummy]

hi, i am also considering dawn house school - alderwasley too far away for my son as its 90 mins away each way. i have had an offer of a place at an asd free school but my lea so far refusing to name it so we are heading to tribunal to get the OT in plus the statement very very wishy washy as well.

[Sazale]

Got a meeting with the LEA on Wednesday for them to explain their reasons for choosing the school that they have named and I'm preparing questions particularly about the peer group as the special school said no suitable peer group but LEA said there is as 1 child is working at a closer level to dd than the rest. Also In their email to me the lea said that "Special School consider that 'despite their best efforts they would not be able to stretch dd academically or to offer her an appropriate, broad and balanced key Stage three and four curriculum.'  

The lea said " the special school are part of the same learning community as a particular mainstream (not current one and have virtually no sen resources, my neice goes their and cant even get 1 hour from a LSA) who can provide guidance on an appropriate curriculum

for dd and the two schools could work together to set suitable academic challenges.There is no mention of support from mainstream in the statement apart from in part 3b it says "inclusive opportunities within a mainstream setting that build on dd's strengths and interests". Not sure what I think about that bit. It doesn't say she has to go into mainstream but it implies that they may try to integrate her in lessons in mainstream in the future which current mainstream have said wont happen and the lea have supported them!! What's all that about? No mention of mainstream working with special school to deliver a curriculum like they said. If its not in the statement then they don't have to do it, do they?

 

 

I've also noticed they've included all the exercises given to us and school by the OT last year in the reports. What I suspect they haven't noticed is that each of them state on them "use of these suggestions should be directed by a qualified therapist"! So now I've got a better case for OT to be involved rather than a teaching assistant following sheets that are over a year old.

[Sally44]

Remember that really your arguments and evidence are best used at SEND. The LA do know what they are doing, and are probably well aware that your child will not cope mainstream, and that they cannot provide both a learning and sensory environment that she can cope in, AND provide a suitable academic AND SOCIAL peer group.

 

So you just highlight those issues for SEND.

 

And if you have all that in writing including that the special and mainstream schools have said they cannot meet her needs, then submit that in your evidence to SEND.

 

And your are right about 'qualified therapist' evidence to be included in the papers you submit to SEND.

 

Remember, that although the LA maybe bending themselves backwards to try to prove they can meet her academic ability in a MLD, whilst somehow providing her with an emotional and social peer group - and taking into account sensory issues and learning styles etc - whatever they are suggesting is going to involve her maybe moving inbetween learning environments which is going to increase her anxiety.

 

She needs to be in a CONSISTENT placement, with therapy staff employed permanently on site. As she has not coped mainstream, how do they expect she is going to cope with being fed over to mainstream? It won't work. And a SEND panel will not place her MLD if she is academically capable. So just ignore what the LA say, and get your case ready for tribunal.

[Sally44]

And the other point is that IF the LA are suggesting that her curriculum will be a mainstream level one, delivered within the special school setting, then how are they going to achieve that. She will be working on totally different topics to the MLD children, and may have to be taught separately in a 1:1 situation to achieve that. That isn't inclusive is it. You need to state that the ONLY environment that will be totally inclusive is at a placement where she is similar to all the other children academically, socially, emotionally ie. an ASD specific school for children who are academically able.

[Sharn]

What a nightmere isnt it. You seem to be vertually at same stage as me. That sounds ridiculous despite their best efforts unable to meet academic needs!! I am looking over the whole country and v difficult to find something for girls who are acedemically able and have PDA . I dont think any option but to residential, but some are weekly and they come home weekend. I cant meet my daughters needs at home anymore anyway as much as I love her, she is 13 and I cant get her to do anything now.Whats your d primary diagnosis ? Or is she like mine many, so aspergers school saying she too oppositional.But am going to look at another one come sep and BSED sch with asd cus we are so limited for choice and she cant go where none of the children are at a similar level. BSED sch worry me but my d needs a gentler approach to her and non confrontational, so im just gunna take each as individual sch and ask right questions etc.I think I only have about 4 schools over whole country,but none seem at all perfect but , and have realised this . Just wanna find the best i can . With all your concerns and very valid ones I dont think you should go with LEA sch . Dont we just get so oo fed up with fighting !! Its so wrong I think when weve got some energy for something other than our kids we should very proffessionally lobby parliment or what ever you do, because big groups have more of an impact than individuals. Anyway good luck re sep, sch visits I be doing the same. Where du live and how old your d , ours could end up in same school ! xx

[Sazale]

Thanks guys

I know we deffo need to appeal. I've prepared some questions on the academic levels of the other children as no one has actually told us what they are just that 1 of them is closer to my dd than the others. They can't be that close otherwise all the extra provision for my dd would already be in place for the other child. 1 child does not make a peer group. I've also got questions about the social abilities of the proposed peer group and teaching experience/qualifications on teaching children with high functions ASD and where their needs are complex and caused solely by their ASD. Do you think it's better to save these questions for tribunal? The proposed special school is not a MLD school but a school for physical disabilities and medical conditions.

 

Sharn, my dd profiles PDA and is also 13. She has complex needs as has traits of ADHD, dyspraxia, auditory processing difficulties, sensory processing difficulties, mild dyslexia and muscle tone/joint issues. Her only diagnosis is mild/moderate ASD and all the other difficulties are attributed to her ASD. The school we are going to look at in Sept (Alderwasley) were concerned over her challenging g behaviour but have decided that the behaviour is a result of being not suitably supported in the right environment and should therefore reduce/disappear significantly once in the right school. However my dd is not physically aggressive so wether that made a difference, I don't know. It's also not an ASD specific but is a school for communication disorders (of which ASD is one) and the children have to be around average academic ability.

 

 

[Sally44]

The questions you have raised need to be asked of the school for you to know what what the academic level of the children are, what the qualifications of the teaching staff are, what the diagnosis is of the children in the school, what ASD specific teaching approaches they use, what specifically they would use for child with ASD and PDA, what therapy as standard in school.

 

You can ask the LA those questions, but don't be led on the answers you are looking for. For you this is a fact finding mission. For the LA they will be fishing to find out what your argument at tribunal is going to be. So don't say things like "but xx school cannot meet my daughters academic level". Just ask what the academic level is of the students in that school year. Because whatever you say xx school cannot do or provide, they are going to go away and try to come up with something. So don't make it obvious. Just get the facts that you will use in your case statement at Tribunal.

 

At the moment you are still thinking of this situation as having to convince the LA of what your daughters needs are and the provision she needs. They already have a good idea what will be.

 

At the Tribunal both you and the LA have to convince the SEND Panel. You will be at the same level as the LA, not worse or better, and the LA cannot use all their arguments and criteria to SEND. The LA have to deliver their case just as you do, and prove that their choice of school can meet your daughters need. The SEND Panel has to go with the parental choice of school UNLESS the LA can prove their money would be better spent [and cost less - and usually alot less, not just £1-4K less] at another school that is just as capable as your parental choice to meet your child's needs.

 

If you can prove from the outset that no LA school can meet her needs, it will not even go to costs. So it is best to prove that no LA school can meet her needs.

 

So you just need facts about the school environment [sensory issues, consistency of staff, consistency of learning environment, small class teaching etc], the students, the staff, the therapy team and what LA departments are able to offer and to what extent. The LA may say they have a PDA expert, but if they do, how many children is she dealing with, is she full time, does she go into school and work with the child 1:1, does she train staff etc.

 

TBH I would introduce the PDA behaviour as being due to anxiety as part of her ASD and other co-morbid diagnosis and that she is not violent to other people, and that your independent reports?, and her time at Alderwasley?, state that with the right support, therapy and peer group alot of these behaviours will lessen and may even disappear.

[Sally44]

When we were looking at schools our son had very low academic results ie. 1C, 1B etc in maths and literacy.

We felt that the LA/school were not addressing his dyslexia difficulties so that they could say he met the criteria for a MLD school as those children were working on P levels or 1C.

 

So we had an independent educational psychology report [2 actually over an 18 month period]. They both came out with around average cognitive ability scores, some above and some just below average. And he was diagnosed with severe dyslexia and dyscalculia.

 

That made him unsuitable for MLD. But we also argued in our case statement that he needed an emotional and social peer group because alot of MLD children do not have social communication difficulties.

 

Our son had no confidence and very low self esteem. He needed to feel he fitted in, instead of always being the worst at everything [academically, socially, physically]. AND the school needed to have a suitable peer group for things like social communication groups, life skills groups etc.

 

Also the teaching approaches and therapy team needed to have qualifications and expertise relevent to his diagnosis, which would not be the case in an MLD school. And he needed a therapy team employed on site so that his therapy could be delivered flexibly across the week [which could not be achieved by different therapists popping into school once a week and never meeting eachother or the school teaching team].

 

With PDA behaviour you are going to need that experience in the teaching and therapy team because, as you know, their ability to comply varies day to day and throughout the day.

 

I don't know whether it is helpful or not to term it as PDA, because that is a diagnosis that is a bit controversial. Some professionals don't believe it exists.

 

Our son's anxiety meant that he showed PDA behaviours, and the Clinical Psychologist listed the ways that those behaviours should be supported in school, which we included in the evidence. And the school he attends, which some of you are also going to visit, has an Educational Psychologist who is in school on a regular basis too.

 

I think alot will depend on the trial period they spend at the school. When I went with my son I promised him that I would stay with him for as long as he needed. This was typically about an hour each day [over the three days]. I would just sit at the back of the class and read something.

 

Remember that if your child has not been in school, or has not been coping in school for some time, they are dealing with chronic levels of stress and anxiety, and it can take some months for them to start to feel safe and more confident in the school environment.

 

My son refused school for about a year. He has never refused to go to his new school. He is even saying that he is missing it. I would never have believed that was possible.

 

Our OT also said that he needed an intensive sensory integration therapy which she said would help his anxiety as she felt that that was at the root of alot of his fears and worries. SIT is very relaxing, and his school provide it for him as part of his curriculum, and if he is having a bad day they will give him an extra session, which allows him to go back into the classroom. In mainstream or even LA special school, there could not be that flexibility. They would attempt to keep him in the class, and he would become more upset and anxious as he really needed a break.

[Sally44]

Just had transport arrangements for next year.

The driver and escort have changed.

He is also going to be travelling with another child - primary year 2.

So for those of you that are visiting the same school my son attends looking for a potential placement, they definately have primary aged kids there - so there will be a suitable peer group.