Socialising with peers

[Viper]

Hi all.

One of the things that seem to come up time and time again is that our children "need to socialise with their own age group." Why?

Ben is home educated and has limited contact with his peer group but he does have 3 sisters who bring friends home all the time. Ben loves it and can relate much beter with an older child than his own age. He finds his own age group difficult to talk to as they are younger, mentally than he is. He once said he can't undestand what they are saying. On another occasion he asked what language a child spoke as he said "I speak English and can't undestand her." This is also one of the reasons the head of his ex school used to report me to social services (the other was that he wets his bed, he's 5) she thinks he is isolated at home with me and no peer group to play with.

 

Your oppinions on this one please.

 

Viper.

[Hectorshouse]

"I speak English and can't undestand her."

Not to lighten this topic .. but my son thinks girls speak a different language anyway!! I think long suffering partner and teen son would agree on this one too!

 

Seriously though, I think socialisation is a tricky one, T desperately craves friends but at the same time cannot cope with them either. He is very much a home bird and even when he does have friends it tends to be supervised etc ... T does get on better with adults or older children, but he tends to become a mascot. Its a tricky one, I think there is a need for our children to understand the social conventions (acording to other people that is) but your son is not isolated at all having 3 sisters is a difficult one for any brother, dunno .. rambling a bit now. Be interested to see what others have to say

 

HHxx

[oracle]

Hi Viper

 

I do not believe that mixing with a peer group that you have nothing in common with nor yet can understand is important at all. I believe we need to teach shared meanings and understandings before we expect our children to mix with their peers and actually gain from the experience.

 

That's why I wrote a paper about this very subject.

 

Carole

[Viper]

OOOoo Id love to read it Carole!!! The thing I have issues with is that we all have to get along regardless of our age. Who leaves school and gets a job with people the same age as them, not many I bet and if there are a few the same age there are probably more that aren't.

 

Viper.

[oracle]

Hi Viper

 

I am going to pm Nellie and ask if it would be appropriate to post the paper into the forum?

 

If not I will mail you a copy.

 

Carole

[mandyque]

I'd be interested in reading your paper too Carole. I don't think it is necessary for our kids to mix with others of their own age, more important is for them to mix with people who understand them, can make allowances when necessary, but also can help the autistic child to learn how to be around other people and to cope with it.

 

C is quite happy to play completely alone, she doesn't want to play with other kids, she has no desire to mix with them and would be happiest in a wacky warehouse or play room with the whole thing to herself so she can move around and play on her own terms. Of course this isn't possible in the real world and she needs to learn to at least play alongside others, even if she doesn't do anything with them.

[Zemanski]

I think good social interaction with anybody of any age is what is really important.

 

Com generally prefers older children and adults but will also play happily with much younger children provided they don't 'pester' him.

 

He does have a couple of good friends of his own age though and looking at how he interacts I feel they are particularly important for providing him with support in other social situations - when he goes swimming or bowling or something they are his way in to the environment and I have noticed that they are better at doing this than either the older or younger kids.

 

I think to some extent it is the general shared experience of peers that is helpful and makes a difference to Com but I think that is more important because he is still in school. If he were not in school the imperative to fit in at a certain level of social development would not be there to the same extent.

 

Good social interaction is where children learn and practice social skills. If a child is functioning at a younger level it may actually be more appropriate for the interaction to be at a younger level too, peer relationships may actually be too complex.

 

I also think that social interaction is better in very small groups for our children, no more than 2 or 3 kids. Com only really functions socially on this level, usually 1-1. In those circumstances he can manage to get on well with peers but as soon as you increase the numbers he's lost. With younger children this is not a problem because they actually work socially in smaller groups too, and with adults, they can work one to one and within the wider group at the same time but peers are wanting to build up the size and complexity of their groups as they develop and that doesn't suit our kids' needs very well.

 

The argument for peer relationships is that they provide social role models but perhaps if a child is very behind in social devlopment this can be fulfilled better by someone who is younger but still more socially developed? Dot, at 4 years younger, is far more socially mature than Com (in fact, than most of her peers) and has probably taught him more about play and getting on with people than anyone else - she is definitely his main social role model.

 

The problem with always interacting with older children is that, although it is more intellectually stimulating perhaps, it is not teaching the same skills. If social communication is underdeveloped there is a need to develop play at a younger level not miss out steps altogether.

Com gets a lot out of his relationships with older kids but I try to make sure he meets same sex peers and younger children who share similar interests as well. Fortunately his friends are intellectually his equals and are willing to share his interests as well as understanding him well enough not to freak out when he has a meltdown over something they have allegedly done - Com is very, very lucky in his friends, they are intelligent, loyal and forgiving.

 

I suppose what I'm really saying is that it's important to have a range of different experiences and relationships for different reasons but ultimately it is good interactions, ones that help Ben feel comfortable socially, that are most important.

 

Something to think about though is that while Ben enjoys his sister's friends now, they may not always be as welcoming as they enter new phases of their own development and their experiences as girls may not help him learn the things he needs to as a boy to quite the same extent. Also older girls tend to 'mother' younger boys which isn't quite the same thing as actively participating in a relationship on an equal basis.

 

I would work on trying to find Ben a couple of his own friends (whatever age), someone who likes computers or science or .....,

One thing I did was to go down to the park as often as we could after school and watch the kids - both those Com chose to interact with and those who looked like they were interested in him. I then chose one child who seemed sensitive and approached his mum, got her round for coffee and watched how it went - some worked out, most didn't, took quite a while but Com has 3 good friends now and they've been there for him for 10 years.

We did the same for Dot when she started a new school and was struggling a bit - worked for her too.

 

hope that helps

 

Zemanski

[Viper]

Thanks Zam, some good sound advice and ideas there.

 

With regard to Ben meeting boys, my eldest 2 DD's are at an age where they have boyfriends and friends that are boys if you get my meaning. The boys they bring home seem to find Ben very pleasing company as he can play PS2 games as well as them and he plays golf probably better than most of them. They often end up in the field behind our house trying to beat Ben at his specialist subject.

 

I do have Ben down on the local Beavers list but they don't take them untill they are 5 3/4 which is the best part of a year away.

 

Viper.

[Viper]

Carole, I look forward to reding it whichever way.

 

Viper.

[Canopus]

The concept that kids should socialise primarily with their own age group is a vastly overrated concept that only came into existance when age segregated compulsory education was introduced. Prior to compulsory education, it was common for most kids to socialise with people over a wide age range because that was the natural system back then. Classes in most fee paying schools were organised along the lines of ability rather than age because that was seen as the most sensible and logical system and still is. Over 100 years of age segregated compulsory education has ingrained the minds of most British people - both kids and adults - that it is most desirable for kids to socialise primarily with their own age group rather than with people over a wide age range. Therefore, proponents that kids should socialise primarily with their own age group have little more than culture and tradition to back up their argument with.

[Guest flutter]

Canopus

very valid point and i see the reasoning behind it, but i still have to teach my daughter to socialise with kids her own age cos that is who she is with

from 7-30 to 4-30 every day,and i needs her to be happy, ( and that for her, it means being able to fit in with all the other girls in her year, cos she see she cant )

i dont worry if we are out and she is playing with kids younger, or older

so it a mixed muddle really

C x

[MelowMeldrew]

I think this is a form of emotional blackmail on parents with an autistic child, pressured via society/mainstream/family, they play on our fears our children are different, they pressure us, and our autistic children to 'get in there' and be 'normal', like everyone else, I despise this NOW. At the start I was no different to anyone else willing my child to interact with peers (In fact they AREN'T his peers,and it takes a time to realise this), because I felt I was made to feel I would be a bad parent, if I didn't 100% support this relentless pressure for my child to conform.

 

I often wonder, did I waste the first vital years of my child's life, listening to this advice ? As time went on reality was apparent, he didn't HAVE the same mind set as 'peers', didn't have the same communications or needs they had, didn't WANT or was ABLE to do the things they tried to get him to do, all that time, wasted, instead of just meeting his need, we all worked for him to meet theirs, some of us still do, in the hope more than the acceptance it is going to happen, yet feel we must 'try'. We shouldn't look on our children's ability to 'integrate' as any major stepping stone to normality, we will be defeated at day one if we accept that, some things we may achive a lot we may not, and it's knowing when, you can't depend on the present system, they are working on a basis of other children's norms, not ours.

 

Some of our children will NEVER meet this 'integration' ideal, the issue, is when, and at what point, will parents and the system accept that ? at day one might be ideal, but certainly Long before our children feel under pressures and us, to conform to what is basically not possible. They can be happy doing their own thing, that much is 'normality', so what is more important ? I live in daily hope he will interact meaningfully with other children, but, it's no longer that much of a priority, his happiness is. It's a case parents know best, so why are we listening to other people ?

[Canopus]

I often wonder, did I waste the first vital years of my child's life, listening to this advice ? As time went on reality was apparent, he didn't HAVE the same mind set as 'peers', didn't have the same communications or needs they had, didn't WANT or was ABLE to do the things they tried to get him to do, all that time, wasted, instead of just meeting his need, we all worked for him to meet theirs, some of us still do, in the hope more than the acceptance it is going to happen, yet feel we must 'try'. We shouldn't look on our children's ability to 'integrate' as any major stepping stone to normality, we will be defeated at day one if we accept that, some things we may achive a lot we may not, and it's knowing when, you can't depend on the present system, they are working on a basis of other children's norms, not ours.

 

You just accepted the norm for the way it is without questioning it. Most other parents including mine have done the same because only an elite few free thinkers anywhere in the world ever question the norm or the popular culture of their society. They just accept the system of a country and its social norms as the way things are and don't need changing. Unless one knows of a parent whose kid is having problems fitting in the school system, or their kid is diagnosed with an incurable condition, then one is often blinkered to what is happening in reality because they blithely assume the norm is the right or conventional system that their kid must fit into. If their kid is not diagnosed with any problem and has difficulty fitting in with the system then it is only natural for most parents to forcibly attempt to make their kid fit in and comply rather than question the system or think there really is something wrong with their kid.

 

Some of our children will NEVER meet this 'integration' ideal, the issue, is when, and at what point, will parents and the system accept that ? at day one might be ideal, but certainly Long before our children feel under pressures and us, to conform to what is basically not possible. They can be happy doing their own thing, that much is 'normality', so what is more important ? I live in daily hope he will interact meaningfully with other children, but, it's no longer that much of a priority, his happiness is. It's a case parents know best, so why are we listening to other people ?

 

Parents don't necessarily know best. They often just assume their kid will systematically fit in with the system or grow out of their problems. Good advice is difficult to come by and it is even more difficult to decide whether advice is good or whether it is misinformation.

[Zemanski]

finding a friend or having good social interaction is not about fitting in

 

Com doesn't fit in

 

he does not want to

 

(I'm not bothered one way or another, though sometimes I look at the kids he's expected to be getting along with and feel really pleased he doesn't - teenage boys are a pretty sordid bunch)

 

but he does desperately need good 1-1 relationships because they make him happy and he learns from them and they support him

 

and, for Com, it is the same age peers that he gets the most from (within about 2 years either side).

 

When Com has had S or C over for the weekend he sleeps better, he laughs, he hoots and flaps, he talks to people instead of at them and he shows interest in something other than his own small world.

 

Not because he is conforming but because that is what he wants to do, with his friends.

 

At school they say the same thing, if Com has had some time with another child 1-1 doing something they both like then he is happier and more relaxed all week.

 

one good friend for Com is worth their weight in gold for the happiness they bring him.

 

but all our kids are different and have different needs.

 

Zemanski

[Brook]

Viper,

 

This was one of the things I first worried about when we took our son out of school, I probably worried about it because it was the first thing people would say when they found out we had de-registered.

 

I can honestly say hand on heart that the change in him socially is amazing, he got to the point at school where he totally withdrew from all the children and I have to say that when he first went in he was quite willing to try and be sociable.

 

I think with all the pressures of the environment, his sensory issues, his language difficulties etc etc.. he began to breakdown, also as he had moved into yr1 he was starting to find the curriculum very taxing, he is very visual and is two and a half years behind in receptive language.

 

He would come home completely drained, crying at anything, his eye contact which had previously been good with family totally went, you would have to call his name at least five or six times before he would answer.

 

Since being out of school his interactions have been positive for him, he still gets invited to the kids parties from his class and he still invites them to his. I think now that he does not have to spend six hours a day rubbing shoulders with thirty kids that he has difficulty understanding, he is much more willing to interact with them, but for a certain amount of time, if hes had enough he will say 'I've got to go now', and we do go, but he leaves on a positive note and therefore is willing to do it again.

 

We went to visit his ASD outreach lady a few weeks ago, she had not seen him for seven months, she was gobsmacked at the change in him and she kept saying I cant believe how calm he is. Also when he used to go to kids parties he would stand there bursting into tears most of the time, but he doesn't now, he gets in there and has fun, he still has little meltdowns at parties ie.. if he hasn't got a certain colour cup etc, but he really seems to enjoy them now and the other mums have also commented on how happy he now seems.

 

I'm starting to go on now, sorry.

 

Brook

[MelowMeldrew]

Parents don't necessarily know best. They often just assume their kid will systematically fit in with the system or grow out of their problems. Good advice is difficult to come by and it is even more difficult to decide whether advice is good or whether it is misinformation.

 

I don't think even at day one, I assumed that stance, I have a disability myself, as does his mother who herself went through the special schools systems when, they were institutions not schools. Being disabled ourselves, we knew ALL About pressures to conform, I thought we had the edge on most able-bodied parents and schools regarding that, but, we did seccumb to pressure that's true, our disability was used as a REASON our child was autistic, so there's a new one for you here deaf parents create autistic children. Which was plain ridiculous, but it did rattle us, SS loomed everywhere, and you were afraid they would march in and take over. I can more than take on the system as an individual and have done, and beat them, but my achille's heel is my child, and they know it, when they pressurise me via him, I am extemely vulnerable myself..

 

At no time, did I accept the current system was meeting my child's need, I could see it wasn't, he wasn't happy, he was deterorating, he was silent, everything, the second he left the school gates he was a contented and reasonably happy child, if a child is unhappy you soon know, I don't need a long-winded 'statement' or review to tell me ! I've been amazed at teacher's ignorance, and angry at the LEA's almost total ignorance, who decide my child's future via what an accountant will allow.. I don't fully understand autism, does anyone here ? but I live with it almost as much as our child does, we shouldn't be sidelined or written off like the system because of that, we are closer than most. I want my son happy being what he is, as parents the system tells us, it cannot, indeed should not, be done, it's deterimental to our children, hidden pressures abound..

 

Whether you are an aspy yourself, or a parent of one, it's never easy. Aspies need to understand Mum and Dad are put under relentless pressures too, some of us cannot cope with it, just as aspies cannot cope with the 'normalisation programming' that doesn't really work I know. We do understand a lot, not everything, then, nobody does do they ? We use the system because they claim to have professionals who understand what we, don't, I am now of the view, we are better placed to decide that, a lot talk total rubbish that defy what we can see for ourselves.

[Canopus]

Whether you are an aspy yourself, or a parent of one, it's never easy. Aspies need to understand Mum and Dad are put under relentless pressures too, some of us cannot cope with it, just as aspies cannot cope with the 'normalisation programming' that doesn't really work I know. We do understand a lot, not everything, then, nobody does do they ? We use the system because they claim to have professionals who understand what we, don't, I am now of the view, we are better placed to decide that, a lot talk total rubbish that defy what we can see for ourselves.

 

I agree with you on this. Sadly far too many people believe every word of the so called professionals whether it be educational psychologists or investment advisors even if it goes completely against ones own judgement and experience of things. Before the internet existed it was a case of professionals vs the parents. Now it is an easy task for parents to get additional verdicts and information from websites such as this, allowing them to query the advice of the professionals.

[mandyque]

our disability was used as a REASON our child was autistic, so there's a new one for you here deaf parents create autistic children.

That's a new one on me! Grasping at straws is the phrase that comes to mind. Why would your being deaf have anything to do with your childs autism? They are completely unconnected! The one thing that has always struck me about the parents I know who are disabled is that they are great parents despite their disability, a damn sight better than some of the able bodies parents I know! This kind of thing makes me mad

[MelowMeldrew]

It was below the belt we thought too. Because our child expressed autism via being very quiet and refusing to talk when he is quite able, they just assumed deaf parents equals no speech equals child not being taught it... eureka you are to blame ! first view he wasn't even autistic, we were to blame because WE were deaf, secondly when he was viewed at our home babbling away to us, they saw it wasn't true, but still put on all his reviews "Has deaf parents", this carried on through 3 schools, and we were relentlessly quizzed do we talk to our son ? worse, were we using Gasp !!!! sign language with him, which to this day schools still ban from including, in case they turn out children unable to speak, ignorance abounds at LEA AND Educational level.

 

Yes we taught him some sign language because I didn't want my son being unable to communicate with his mother, I told schools I wouldn't isolate my son from her to please them, so tough luck. A vital point all the school miss here, is my autistic son is in part bi-lingual, which hardly indicates severe communication issues or an inability to communicate ! My speech is OK it always was, my education very good too, I wasn't born deaf, and I when at home I sign and talk at the same time, because I won't leave his mother (Or him), out. At the last review 3 weeks ago, again the headmaster refused point blank to include either sign language or Maketon to assist my sons communication "We don't do that here" he said, I said well, he won't BE here much longer hopefully !

 

We argued what is the schools autistic unit priority here ? his prejudice or the child's progress ? From my view communication was a priority, he said his was too, but I pointed out I will use anything and everything, being deaf I ahve had tobe ultra inventive myself to effect good communications allaround, a lot many deaf people woul dhave refused point blank to do,it was damned hard work and still is. He speaks to us, and WON'T to you, so whose approach is right ? I did think perhaps he went to school and was waiting for the sign to accompany the speech and then didn't inter-act because it didn't happen, but I've visited the schools often and never saw any indication he was expecting sign too, he knows mum and dad do it, and at school they don't.

 

I viewed an autistic school and Maketon and some sign was used with some children there, I even got a response from a child of 6 who had never spoken to her parent who I signed at and spoke about a ball they were playing with, the teacher seemed very surprised. It is obviously important from my view neither is used in isolation, the system thinks deafness and speech are incompatible, but if you cannot educate the teachers in special needs, it's an uphill job aint it !

 

My son's autistic unit seems to be behind current thinking, a lot are, speech therapists are bit suss too ! You HAVE to be open to alternatives and be prepared to use them, tailor education to the childm, not the child to the system. Don't know about many here, my child does his OWN thing ! In fact my son has a very good speaking voice (He always did), but is ultra selective when, and with whom he will use it, he follows lessons and instructions at school quite well, so clearly understand the spoken word no bother. He has learning issues, but I don't think they are communication based. It's difficult to explain.

 

No school as yet has managed to establish the high level of communication we have with him, he does more school work at home too ! He will choose from one day to the next if he wants to communicate to you or not. It is no indication at all, he hasn't the skill, I said your school is not looking at this the right way, and over-focusing on trying to make him talk when he chooses not to, it is important he interacts, but just as important you know he can follow other ways too, surely you should use anything and everything to see what helps ? I said I had no time for his hang ups, my son comes first. My lad may not always verbally express himself, but I've never noticed he was unable to, he won't 'perform' on demand, he's not spontaneous, so the teachers will just have to get used to this, if they don't, they will hold him back. Perhaps he is (Sniff !), the ultimate snob

Edited November 4, 2005 by MelowMeldrew

[Zemanski]

MelowMeldrew, a couple of ideas to put to those who fail to appreciate that your son is bilingual

 

first, he is bilingual and both languages are equally important to his development

 

second, it is understood in the education of EAL (english as an additional language) children that the use of the 'mother tongue' supports the learning of a second language, if a child's first language is restricted then they find it difficult to develop concepts in the second language. In the case of truly bilingual children they need both languages valued because they are mutually supportive.

 

not using both languages with your son is like not allowing a child who arrives from another country to speak their own language

 

Zemanski

[oracle]

Viper I have now added the paper on Autism and Socalisation into the Resources. Hopefully I have managed to add the version with the least number of mistakes

 

Carole

Edited November 4, 2005 by carole

[something vague]

Hello, I've come late to this discussion.

 

MM, I'm shocked that your son's school are against him using sign language. Did you say that its an autism unit? In our autism centre, we will use any means of communication that the child will respond to. If your son's school disapproves of sign language then their message to him must be 'we dont value you enough to learn how to communicate with you' He's certainly not going to want to communicate with people who don't value him for being himself.

 

BTW, I'm partially deaf (2 hearing aids). I wish that I had learned BSL when younger. We use Makaton with our autistic pupils and often staff use it when talking to me - saves them repeating themselves a million times

 

On the subject of socialisation, my view is that communication is a necessity if you want your needs met but socializing is more of a choice. We all choose who our friends are. Age shouldn't matter and doesn't once you're left school. I think that if a child with autism is approaching others or accepting other people's friendly approaches, it should'nt matter about ages. What matters is that the child is seeking out and accepting others for pleasure rather than need.

[MelowMeldrew]

It is indeed an autistic unit, the first in our area too ! Old school I'm afraid, and dated attitudes, looks like the head puts up with 'special needs' rather than wants it. They still look like they're 'feeling their way' with autistic children, and not too sure what to do for the best, guidelines do not include sign usage, they didn't even in mainstream when they put him there as well, yet ironically, invited deaf people in to younger children to help with 'deaf' awareness, you could not script this !

 

Current guidelines in my area don't seem to favour a 'global'approach to communications. Clearly the currenthead of my son's school feels it will not help our child despite proof it has, so it's a personal view perhaps. I've visited my son and had little difficulty establishing communication with other children there either. I think my son doesn't look for it in school, he wouldn't get it anyway there. Deaf parents are all faced with this dilemma, do we sign at them or let the speaking/hearing people take the reigns.

 

A number do sadly NOT teach their children sign language, believing the system that states you will delay their speech if you do. This isn't tru so long as you use speech and sign simultaneously as I do, of corse there are cases where deaf people haven't useful speech, it's assumed the nom, and it isn't. I've encountered 5 head teachers so far ALL with the view deaf people cannot speak, the very first nursery my son attended, got awards regionally for their special needs dept too, the same school that erfused to accept my son was autistic, so I pulled him out for 3 months and arranged a consultant to test him, who proved me right, he had aspergers, not once did that head teacher admit she was wrong, I had an interpreter to help his Mum and she said "I cannot believe Heads still exist with her views !"

[Canopus]

Viper I have now added the paper on Autism and Socalisation into the Resources.  Hopefully I have managed to add the version with the least number of mistakes 

 

An excellent well written article. I hope it makes an impact.

 

There are far too many people who think that a kid will learn social skills automatically if they are thrown in a room with 30 or so other kids their same age. My mother certainly thought so and applied for nursery over a year before I was to start in order to secure a place. The nursery operated using a free play system where kids were left to their own devices rather than engaged in organised activities. This was the system used in just about every state nursery 25 years ago and nobody back then ever seemed to question it. Only at milk time would the kids ever get together in some social activity but they were not allowed to talk until they had finished their milk. After that they could just play with the toys. The nursery staff complained to my parents - much to their dismay - that I hardly ever talked to or interacted with any of the other kids. They used to bring up this issue at least once a year afterwards until I finished university as if I had committed a cardinal sin. My attitude was that if the nursery staff wanted me to interact with other kids then they would have arranged organised group activities. If there was any time in my life when I most needed social skills sessions then it was at nursery. Sadly the system failed to provide this.

 

At primary and secondary school I had difficulty relating to other kids and recognising social cues. When things went wrong my father used to regularly shout at me "use your social skills". I replied that I didn't have the necessary social skills but he didn't believe me and took it as nothing more than another instance of bad behaviour. My school couldn't understand my problems and neither could the EP or LEA. My doctor and psychologists at hospitals didn't think there was anything wrong with me. The school never put on any social skills lessons or even provided me with opportunities to discuss issues in small groups with teachers and kids during breaktimes or after school. My parents and the EP were more concerned about me fitting in and conforming than having a few good friends I could relate to well. I felt happier and more confident in the company of 1 or 2 good friends than in a classroom of 30 acquaintances. This never registered with my EP or entered my statement despite it being such a critical issue. I didn't want to go to school and conform. All I wanted was to be home educated and have a few good friends.

 

My parents have an attitude that what's good for you or what you need is not necessarily what you like or what you want, which is why they approved of me attending a special needs residential school. It was written in the action plan of my statement that I needed social skills sessions but they were not provided by the school because they didn't believe in them. All the school did was provide an academic education in a harsh and strict environment. The school believed that such an environment would make kids behave, conform and come out as disciplined NT citizens with good GCSEs. Many of the staff had no knowledge of autism or SEN and could not understand the behaviour of many kids or how they reacted in certain situation. The school had zillions of unwritten rules and etiquette. Some of the rules were official school rules whilst others were unofficial and imposed by prefects and carestaff. No kids were given a handbook explaining the school rules and how the school is run when they started. They were expected to pick up the rules via social cues. Quite often the only way to find out about a rule was to break it. This would result in a blasting by the staff or other kids and often incurred penalties such as detentions. This was a very intimidating system and totally unsuited to kids with AS.

[mandyque]

MelowMeldrew I am shocked at the attitude you are facing. IMO any communication system is better than no communication system, whether that be sign, speech, PECS, Makaton or some other form. My daughter is mostly non verbal, has learned some phrases to ask for things that she wants, but she is very restricted in her communication skills. I am annoyed at her school for not trying harder to teach her more in the way of PECS or sign, either way would be perfectly acceptable to me. I do try my best but she tends to learn better in a formal environment like school.

 

All any of us want for children with communication difficulties is to give them the opportunities they need to be understood, in whichever medium is best for them. Why does sign language have to be exclusive to deaf people if others can benefit from it? It makes no sense to me at all.

 

ps What hairbrain really thinks that all deaf people are non-verbal?? The signing teacher we had at college signed and spoke to us!

[LizK]

There are far too many people who think that a kid will learn social skills automatically if they are thrown in a room with 30 or so other kids their same age

 

That is a sadly naive approach from those who poorly understand autism and its manifestations. Whilst in some cases mixing with others might help I can see too how it could actually have the opposite effect and be detrimental. My son (4) certainly functions less well in larger groups and finds them very hard. We've been fortunate in his attending a nursery who have been sensitive to this issue with staff who are willing to do basic social skills work with him like turn taking, modelling play, encouraging him to ask to play with other children as well as encouraging other children to play with him. They do a lot of small group work with him as he copes better with this. It is certainly paying off as he's interacting and enjoying playing with the other children much more and he always seems to have a gaggle of four year old girls clucking after him :]. This seems to be setting up a positive circle teaching him more about socialisation in a fun way he enjoys. Just hope his school can adopt the same approach as I know he'll find a class of thirty intimidating

 

Going back to the OP I think it depends upon the nature of the child and the degree they are functioning at. My son wants to be sociable, it's in his personality but he doesn't know how to, has never learned those skills other children seem to pick up inately and his social anxiety can crush him at times. It's important for his happiness for him to learn to socialise. I remember his crestfallen face in the playground when he's wanted to play with other children but they've ignored him or seen him playing on his own in the garden at nursery looking wistfully at his peers playing together but him having no idea of how to join in. Equally too he needs to live in this world, go to school and hopefully in the future hold down a job and all those require some degree of social ability. My main wish in encouraging social skills is for his happiness and to ease his passage through life. Would I encourage social skills so he 'fits' in? In all honesty yes to a degree. Much as I'd like society to change to be more accepting the realist in me is dubious that that is likely to happen to a major degree and as long as it wasn't causing him distress or anxiety I would.

 

Socialising with peers? As someone else mentioned DS plays better with slightly younger children. My niece is 9mths younger but great speech and social skills. DS adores playing with her and she's been great for him as she directs him and shows him what to do, has encouraged the glimmers of imaginary play in his brain and opened up a whole new depth of play to him. Interestingly he tends to play these sorts of games with girls but with peer gropup boys if they won't do rough-and-tumble hes not interested in playing with them at all. My youngest is 13mths old and DS copies him incessantly! He seems a very socially skilled little chap and I'm hoping as he gets older this influence will translate into something more profitable than them both crawling around the floor or sucking dummies together :]

 

Completely OT but ###### fireworks out there has just woken the baby

 

Lx

[Canopus]

That is a sadly naive approach from those who poorly understand autism and its manifestations.

 

More like a naive approach from those who do not understand children.

 

Whilst in some cases mixing with others might help I can see too how it could actually have the opposite effect and be detrimental.

 

Absolutely true. Kids can learn all sorts of bad behaviour from school that they probably wouldn't learn if they stayed at home. In some cases kids behave badly in order to fit in with the crowd. If they didn't behave badly then they would get bullied and lose respect of their classmates. In other cases the teachers force bad habits and behaviour onto kids because they have poor or inappropriate standards themselves.

[Zemanski]

I did a placement in a special school in Cambridge during my teacher training, it was compulsory on our course which I have since discovered is very unusual.

one thing I was really impressed with at the time was that all children were taught to sign so that all children could communicate with each other within the school. The signing lessons were great fun and we were expected to try to use signing (what little we knew) with all the children as well as verbal communication, it seemed to work so well for everybody and it was such a natural thing to do.

 

this was in 1986

 

this year I visited a special school which has some ASD expertise (a rare and wondrous thing in our LEA) and they were using pecs, signing and verbal communication simultaneously with the children, again working really well - a very happy little school

 

I just can't believe that it still isn't general practice (well, I can because I know how different things can be from place to place, even within the same LEA)

 

The use of signing is now encouraged in primary schools to aid behaviour management without disrupting classes - not official sign language but simple non-verbal commands used to communicate while the lesson is still being taught on the verbal level eg. a flat horizontal hand, lowered from eye level to chest means the noise levels are too high, be quieter. Signing is known to be a very effective means of communication alongside the verbal, never mind for those who are not communicating verbally for whatever reason. If signed communication is recognised as a useful supplement to verbal communication for NT kids in mainstream why is it not being used across the board in special schools where children can benefit from it far more?

 

one of the things that our kids find difficult is reading body language, perhaps all our kids, even the very verbal ones, need to be taught to sign in order to focus them more on the physical forms of communication rather than just the verbal?

 

Zemanski

[elaine1]

dont know! my son has one freind who he invites when he has bought a new ps2 game, but otherwise hes quite happy being alone. Think it makes us feel better, im not sure.

incidentally my daughter who is 10 is quite sociable at school but dosent ever feel the need to invite anyone home, she says she likes her home to be hers an noone elses lol <'>