What makes me really mad.

[Canopus]

As I have previously stated, I am wondering if Gary McKinnon's lawyers know something concerning the AS that we don't which has contributed to much of the media coverage making an issue of the AS. If AS can be used as a defence then it will relate to American law rather than British law. If his lawyers knew that AS was absolutely no defence whatsoever then they would almost certainly have cut it out of the whole affair as being an irrelevant matter, and it would have received far less media coverage.

 

I personally think that AS has been given a disproportionate amount of media coverage and strength in opposing the extradition compared with the timing which cannot be disputed by anyone.

 

[Janey]

Media coverage leads to building up of stereotypes in people's minds, whether it be about terrorists, gay people, catholic priests - whatever. This is not in any of our interests.

 

In todays news:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8192603.stm

Perhaps the NAS should take heed?

[NobbyNobbs]

Rubbish. Hacking into foreign military computers clearly and squarely violates the Computer Misuse Act and carries a maximum sentence of 5 years behind bars.

Do you really think a 5 year prison sentence is 'nothing important'?

as i said (you seem to keep ignoring what i'm actually saying) it is nothing RELATIVE to the 60 year sentence he is looking at in the US.

[lisac]

i know its off topic , but im sure some of you can do flexible thinking and not crucify me. mandapanda my son is 22 . I have been waiting for him to 'grow up' for years. With some autistics pictures/social stories make no difference. Not everyone with autism is as able as your child, yet some people cant grasp this and think there is an answer. Not all problems have solutions. None of you know GM yet you sit there and judge! What do you think is going to happen to all of your children once they are adults? Autism doesnt dissapear unfortunately. GM has AS, cut him some slack, you harsh lot.,as you never know, one day, your adult may do something without knowing the consequences and i bet you wont want them to be judged by others who dont know him

[Mumble]

i know its off topic , but im sure some of you can do flexible thinking and not crucify me.

What a nasty, horrible, derogatory statement to make on an ASD forum with a large number of ASD individuals posting.

 

[Mumble]

one day, your adult may do something without knowing the consequences

He did know the consequences. I've said this already as have many others. You can't make an argument if you can't be bothered to actually read what others have written.

 

Oh, and FWIW, I don't believe on giving up on anyone and saying there is no solution to a problem. I believe everyone has a right to develop. Autism doesn't disappear but neither is it a life-sentence.

 

[bid]

i know its off topic , but im sure some of you can do flexible thinking and not crucify me. mandapanda my son is 22 . I have been waiting for him to 'grow up' for years. With some autistics pictures/social stories make no difference. Not everyone with autism is as able as your child, yet some people cant grasp this and think there is an answer. Not all problems have solutions. None of you know GM yet you sit there and judge! What do you think is going to happen to all of your children once they are adults? Autism doesnt dissapear unfortunately. GM has AS, cut him some slack, you harsh lot.,as you never know, one day, your adult may do something without knowing the consequences and i bet you wont want them to be judged by others who dont know him

 

Some of us are autistic ourselves, and have adult children who are autistic.

 

I don't think there has been any reason for you to have been quite so offensive in your posts in this thread. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion about GM, without making uncalled for remarks.

 

Bid

Edited August 10, 2009 by bid

[baddad]

i know its off topic , but im sure some of you can do flexible thinking and not crucify me. mandapanda my son is 22 . I have been waiting for him to 'grow up' for years. With some autistics pictures/social stories make no difference. Not everyone with autism is as able as your child, yet some people cant grasp this and think there is an answer. Not all problems have solutions. None of you know GM yet you sit there and judge! What do you think is going to happen to all of your children once they are adults? Autism doesnt dissapear unfortunately. GM has AS, cut him some slack, you harsh lot.,as you never know, one day, your adult may do something without knowing the consequences and i bet you wont want them to be judged by others who dont know him

 

Hi Lisa - Honestly, I think you need to do a bit of 'flexible thinking' yourself. You seem to be 'judging' GM by your own experience of autism with your son, and it really isn't relevant in this case. Several of the people who are expressing the opinions you find 'harsh' are autistic themselves, and they are not 'judging' him because they can't grasp the fact that autism is a spectrum, they are acknowledging that fact and saying that it is unreasonable for GM to manipulate public opinion by capitalising on the misconceptions that exist. GM himself admits that he knew what he was doing was illegal and 'wrong' - your own unwillingness to accept that says far more about your own 'autistic world view' than it does about the people who take his words at face value.

You're absolutely right that some of the parents here don't want their children harshly judged by others who don't know them - which is precisely the reason they are challenging the stereotypes GM's defence team are exploiting. Where do you think the 'people who don't know' get their opinions from?

 

Janey - sorry, I think GM is going to dominate this thread however hard you try purely because it is so current. I've looked at the BBC link you posted. Very interseting. sadly, directly underneath is a picture of Dustin Hoffman and the question 'are all autistic people geniuses?'...

OH - just looked again and it now says 'Why do movies pretend autism is a glamour disability?' now THAT's the kind of question I like to see!

Here's a little song i wrote:

 

A is for aspilebrity

B is for boffin-bodacity...

(I'm stuck on 'G for 'geek-chic- at the mo...)..,

 

L&P

 

BD

[Janey]

Janey - sorry, I think GM is going to dominate this thread however hard you try purely because it is so current. I've looked at the BBC link you posted. Very interseting. sadly, directly underneath is a picture of Dustin Hoffman and the question 'are all autistic people geniuses?'...

OH - just looked again and it now says 'Why do movies pretend autism is a glamour disability?' now THAT's the kind of question I like to see!

 

I didn't spot that! Well there we go, the other autistic stereotype portrayed by the media 'Rainman'

 

Janey

[NobbyNobbs]

Not everyone with autism is as able as your child, yet some people cant grasp this and think there is an answer. Not all problems have solutions.

we're not talking about all people with an ASD, we're talking about one seemingly very able adult with AS

 

None of you know GM yet you sit there and judge!

i got an adult diagnosis of AS at 23. i cannot live independently, or hold down a full time job and i certainly am unable to even consider a relaltionship. GM has managed to achieve all these things before his diagnosis so i would consider him to be at least on an even level with me (if not slightly less disadvantaged) with regards to social/moral understanding etc. i know that i would not commit that crime, no matter how interested i was in something. i know from the posts that a number of other adult dx people here feel the same. therfore for me, the use of his AS as an excuse for why he shouldn't recieve the punishment is pointless. i'm not saying that a person with autism, developmental delays and learning difficulties should be held in the same light, i'm saying that a grown man who has managed all those NT milestones without the need to get a diagnosis is most likely fully capable of understanding the crime he committed, and if while understanding that it was illegal he CHOSE to commit the crime, i'm not going to support him getting off the punishment. as to your comment about people judging GM, i believe there's something about a dark coloured pot and kettle that would sum up that outlook.

 

not directed at anyone in particular - have a look at what the media representation of him having AS has brought up. BBC news has run a 'have your say' about GM. there are more people saying that he should be let off and cured than there are people saying anything else. given all the page-space that has been given to this case, do you really think that its been a positive influence on other people with AS? noone has been educated, it has just played into the stereotype that means that if i tell someone i have AS they make comments either about everyone being a little bit autistic, that Bill Gates has it too and he's done alright or ask if theres a cure. one hospital specialist (not ASD) recently said 'oh well, it clearly doesn't affect you so it doesn't matter' when i mentioned it during a hearing asessment.

 

if you go onto NHS choices ASD and watch the video, you can see some of the fine work of the NAS 'think differently' campaign. i'm so glad that a lot of employers first port of call for information has me billed as a rude, inconsiderate person oblivious of my impact on other peoples feelings.

[KezT]

BBC news has run a 'have your say' about GM. there are more people saying that he should be let off and cured

 

well, wouldn't that just be the perfect solution for the world?

 

[sesley]

I will just have make sure my 9 year old can never ever get into any UK or USA miliatray computer,should he learn how to hack into them in years to come. I do appreciate that being Asd/apsergers ,does not make them immune to the laws,but should in this nation of ours be taken inconsideration,because they are more vunerable and our laws must be made to protect vunerable people like Gary and our people from the trials and judgements of other nations, after all, they refuse to send that Jordon bloke or anyone else back to a nation that uses captial punishment, is it right to send a asd/apsergers person to a possible life in a jail of a foreign country,with a dodgy record on human rights abuses,like keeping people on death row for years on end,usually people of low iq, poor and poor learning skills.Do we really want to extradite people like Gary Mckinnion . He is no threat,he hasn't killed anyone just embarrassed a big wealth nation,who regards it self as the worlds superior police force.

Edited August 10, 2009 by sesley

[NobbyNobbs]

He is no threat

i dont know why people keep saying that. he IS a threat to the USAs national security, as proved by his attacks (hacking is an attack) on the US military infrastructure. he wasn't hacking into his grandmas email account, he was hacking into and deleting files from the military.

[Mandapanda]

i know its off topic , but im sure some of you can do flexible thinking and not crucify me. mandapanda my son is 22 . I have been waiting for him to 'grow up' for years. With some autistics pictures/social stories make no difference. Not everyone with autism is as able as your child, yet some people cant grasp this and think there is an answer. Not all problems have solutions. None of you know GM yet you sit there and judge! What do you think is going to happen to all of your children once they are adults? Autism doesnt dissapear unfortunately. GM has AS, cut him some slack, you harsh lot.,as you never know, one day, your adult may do something without knowing the consequences and i bet you wont want them to be judged by others who dont know him

 

Hi lisac

 

I apologise for wrongly assuming your son was younger. Your situation would rather appear to be a good example of what we are trying to DEFEND. If your son was in GM's position, it sounds like you would be totally justified in including AS in any defence. Your son would perhaps not realise the seriousness or consequences of his actions, or would be unable to resist the urge to do what he was doing, and would not understand any impact on other people. Someone in this situation needs this defence to be given proper value. If people use AS as a defence when it did not hinder/disable their thought process or realisation of the illegality of their actions, then your son's defence would not be given the credence it should be given.

 

GM has admitted he knew what he was doing was not just wrong but ILLEGAL and he did it anyway. He did not just look for the information he wanted, he left messages and apparently deleted files. This is not harmless and can cause losses of information and a financial cost. If I had a company and he did that to my computer system, and admitted he knew it was illegal but did it anyway, I would want the proper legal process to take place. If someone like your son did it and genuinely did not understand the enormity of what he had done, that would be a different case entirely.

 

It is my understanding and concern and compassion for people with AS, and my knowledge of the very varied level of comprehension and ability that people with AS can have, that leads me to wonder and discuss whether GM is genuine in his use of AS in his defence case. Perhaps it is being used because he has NO OTHER DEFENCE for his actions, and not because it was genuinely a factor in the case. I hope this explains my point of view better.

[bid]

Hi lisac

 

I apologise for wrongly assuming your son was younger. Your situation would rather appear to be a good example of what we are trying to DEFEND. If your son was in GM's position, it sounds like you would be totally justified in including AS in any defence. Your son would perhaps not realise the seriousness or consequences of his actions, or would be unable to resist the urge to do what he was doing, and would not understand any impact on other people. Someone in this situation needs this defence to be given proper value. If people use AS as a defence when it did not hinder/disable their thought process or realisation of the illegality of their actions, then your son's defence would not be given the credence it should be given.

 

GM has admitted he knew what he was doing was not just wrong but ILLEGAL and he did it anyway. He did not just look for the information he wanted, he left messages and apparently deleted files. This is not harmless and can cause losses of information and a financial cost. If I had a company and he did that to my computer system, and admitted he knew it was illegal but did it anyway, I would want the proper legal process to take place. If someone like your son did it and genuinely did not understand the enormity of what he had done, that would be a different case entirely.

 

It is my understanding and concern and compassion for people with AS, and my knowledge of the very varied level of comprehension and ability that people with AS can have, that leads me to wonder and discuss whether GM is genuine in his use of AS in his defence case. Perhaps it is being used because he has NO OTHER DEFENCE for his actions, and not because it was genuinely a factor in the case. I hope this explains my point of view better.

 

Very well said

 

Bid

[Mumble]

Ditto Bid, excellent post Mandapanda

 

[lisac]

'GM has admitted he knew what he was doing was not just wrong but ILLEGAL and he did it anyway'

 

But , some people with as /asd will say things to their own determent . Some will say they've understood things and done things which they have'nt ! He may have admitted to something that he has little idea about. How do you know ?

 

[bid]

'GM has admitted he knew what he was doing was not just wrong but ILLEGAL and he did it anyway'

 

But , some people with as /asd will say things to their own determent . Some will say they've understood things and done things which they have'nt ! He may have admitted to something that he has little idea about. How do you know ?

 

Lisa, he was a systems analyst!!

 

This implies that he certainly has the cognitive ability to have an extremely good understanding of what hacking/illegal means.

 

Can only re-echo Manda's excellent post above.

 

Bid

 

[call me jaded]

'GM has admitted he knew what he was doing was not just wrong but ILLEGAL and he did it anyway'

 

But , some people with as /asd will say things to their own determent . Some will say they've understood things and done things which they have'nt ! He may have admitted to something that he has little idea about. How do you know ?

 

 

I'm sure his lawyers will argue exactly that point.

 

The entire episode will damage people with ASD and put further barriers to them living an ordinary life. The fact GM's mother called his law-breaking a voyage of discovery speaks volumes to me about her contribution to his woes. Beware helicopter parenting: it does nothing to prepare our children for the realities of adult life. It's not about arguing for continual concessions being made that lower expectations regarding people with disability (how patronising), it's about giving people the life skills to make their own decisions, and if they make a bad life choice that is really their decision and how equality works.

 

NAS are saying that to send him to trial in the US will remove him from the large support network. It's a shame this large support network isn't preparing him for the harsh reality of going to trial for a serious crime. I seriously question the quality of advice he has been given - shame on NAS for helping to devalue him as a person, effectively saying that although he has admitted that what he did was wrong he has not got the emotional intelligence to do what 'normal' people would do and lie and for that he should be protected.

[bid]

I'm sure his lawyers will argue exactly that point.

 

The entire episode will damage people with ASD and put further barriers to them living an ordinary life. The fact GM's mother called his law-breaking a voyage of discovery speaks volumes to me about her contribution to his woes. Beware helicopter parenting: it does nothing to prepare our children for the realities of adult life. It's not about arguing for continual concessions being made that lower expectations regarding people with disability (how patronising), it's about giving people the life skills to make their own decisions, and if they make a bad life choice that is really their decision and how equality works.

 

NAS are saying that to send him to trial in the US will remove him from the large support network. It's a shame this large support network isn't preparing him for the harsh reality of going to trial for a serious crime. I seriously question the quality of advice he has been given - shame on NAS for helping to devalue him as a person, effectively saying that although he has admitted that what he did was wrong he has not got the emotional intelligence to do what 'normal' people would do and lie and for that he should be protected.

 

Very well said, too, Jaded

 

Bid

 

[baddad]

As above

 

And in a complete aside...

 

'Helicopter parenting' - did you watch the episode of 'Outnumbered; the other week with this little exchange:

 

MUM: There was this thing I read on line about over parenting. You don't think we're over parenting, do you?

 

DAD: Hmmm. dunno (?)...

 

MUM: Or under parenting? That's just as bad apparently. Do you think we over parent or under parent?

 

DAD: Dunno. Both, I expect...

 

 

 

 

[Tally]

NAS are saying that to send him to trial in the US will remove him from the large support network.

I don't really see how this is autism-related. Surely a non-autistic person who is extradited would be removed from their support network as well???

 

And as an aside, where can I get one of these large support networks from?

[Mumble]

And as an aside, where can I get one of these large support networks from?

I think they're on offer in Tescos at the moment

 

Or is a 'large support network' a forum for slightly overweight people to exchange tips on the buying and wearing of Bridget Jones style undergarments?

 

[lisac]

Any way.. it is America's fault for having no protection, they should be thankful he was not a terrorist and do the decent thing and offer him a job

[MelowMeldrew]

Any way.. it is America's fault for having no protection, they should be thankful he was not a terrorist and do the decent thing and offer him a job

 

They probably just want to know how he did it... however he did cost them half a million dollars...! We mustn't assume hacking is just a game for geeks, they destroy websites pull down bloggers, attack e-mail systems, destroy computer files, use them for criminal activities... and not so long ago took THIS site offline. As they destroyed another disability message board last year for terminally ill children, so there is a 'dark side' to this too. Nothing is off limits to these people.

[infosaas]

They probably just want to know how he did it... however he did cost them half a million dollars...! We mustn't assume hacking is just a game for geeks, they destroy websites pull down bloggers, attack e-mail systems, destroy computer files, use them for criminal activities... and not so long ago took THIS site offline. As they destroyed another disability message board last year for terminally ill children, so there is a 'dark side' to this too. Nothing is off limits to these people.

 

 

EVERYONE HAS THERE OWN OPINION

 

[infosaas]

EVERYONE HAS THERE OWN OPINION

 

 

I HAVE ASPERGER- HE DID WRONG- HE HAS ADMITTED IT

he should be tried in th UK not the US as he commited the crime in the UK period!

[bid]

A good number of the people posting in this thread who are critical of GM also have AS (myself included).

 

Bid

[Kathryn]

Infosaas,

 

You're entitled to your opinion, but please express it politely - there's no need to use shouty capital letters in all your posts. Others might have a different view to yours - please respect that if you want to be a part of our very friendly and tolerant community.

 

Thanks

 

Kathryn

 

 

[Canopus]

as i said (you seem to keep ignoring what i'm actually saying) it is nothing RELATIVE to the 60 year sentence he is looking at in the US.

 

60 years is a draconian sentence for just about any crime so I can see good reason why anybody destined for such a sentence would fight it until the bitter end, especially if it's an 'unofficial' sentence and a far less extreme official sentence exists. Even so, 5 years in a British prison is quite a hefty sentence and far from a slap on the wrist, so implying that Gary McKinnon is getting off lightly by taking this sentence as opposed to extradition is unjustified.

 

There certainly are people who believe that a criminal should take whatever punishment they are given even if it is not set out in the law at the time the crime was committed. I do not subscribe to this because it would result in very rough justice.

 

i dont know why people keep saying that. he IS a threat to the USAs national security, as proved by his attacks (hacking is an attack) on the US military infrastructure. he wasn't hacking into his grandmas email account, he was hacking into and deleting files from the military.

 

Do you have first hand information of EXACTLY what Gary McKinnon did or are you relying on possibly distorted information from the mainstream media?

[Mandapanda]

Do you have first hand information of EXACTLY what Gary McKinnon did or are you relying on possibly distorted information from the mainstream media?

 

Is the information from the conspiracy theorists any less distorted?

[KezT]

On another case entirely - i was reading the BBc website today: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/norfolk/8204839.stm

 

and noticed this little line.... He said: "Because Mr Martin suffers from Asperger's syndrome he can't show his feelings.

 

Now where did that one come from???? In 10 years I have never heard that Tony Martin was AS, and there was plenty of hullaballoo about the case at the time, and again on the release of the living burglar, and again on Tony martin's release!

 

Without wishing to restart a discussion on the case (just because I have argued it so very many times), what was the BBC's reasoning behind that particular revelation do you think? Or evidence? Is it another "poor Aspies can not help themselves and therefore should be allowed to commit crimes" D'you think? I found it discomforting wothout being able to quite work out why. But then again, when the GHary M stuff first stareted I found it discomforting without knowing why - I needed you guys to explain what i felt was wrong with the whole campaign

[Mumble]

:o

 

Yet again a case of 'let's throw in AS when actually it has nothing to do with the case'. And, yet again, there is the potential for all sorts of damage, both in terms of reiterating what horrible nasty criminals all us ASD people are who can't control our actions but also in making and reinforcing some horrendous stereotypes about not having feelings and not being remorseful. Well I certainly have feelings, I certainly show them and I certainly feel remorse and seek to make right where I have done wrong.

 

These articles make me sad because I don't think the writers actually realise how much harm they are potentially doing, and the more that come out, the more normalised it becomes to write about ASDs in this way and the stronger and harder to break stereotypes become. Getting angry won't help, but equally I don't know what will because, quite simply, an average ASD individual getting on and leading their lives and not breaking the law and causing a nuisance just isn't news.

 

[Kathryn]

Contact the site and complain - or get the NAS to do it. It's only when people start protesting that this kind of lazy journalism will be stopped and reporters will start to check their facts. The NAS produces a good factsheet for the media so there's no excuse.

 

K x-

 

 

[Mumble]

Contact the site and complain - or get the NAS to do it. It's only when people start protesting that this kind of lazy journalism will be stopped and reporters will start to check their facts. The NAS produces a good factsheet for the media so there's no excuse.

 

K x-

Done - and I also included a link to the NAS media information page for their benefit

 

[Karen A]

Hi all.

I have not read through all of the thread.However I thought I would mention that media coverage of mental illness that creates stigma has been an issue for some time.I think that there are current campaigns being conducted by mental health charities to encourage more responsible reporting.It appears perfectly fine for newspapers to report the details of vague diagnosis and generalisations with very little knowledge of the issues.Karen.

[Mumble]

Well, well, well...

 

I have received a very swift response from the BBC directly from the author of the article. He has altered it so the part where AS is introduced now reads: "He said that Martin has Asperger's syndrome and struggles to express his feelings" - the reference to suffering and no feelings has been removed - (same link as previously posted) and thanked me for the reference to the NAS media site and the rest of the NAS site.

 

Sometimes people do listen. Thanks Kathryn for suggesting I write to them.

 

[Sally44]

i think he mentally unstable which doesn't excuse his beahviour but maybe he turned obsessive side which spiralled out of his control which made matters worse i think society's views could turn negative stereotypical towards us i think it's a fine line between using it to maybe explain some pointers of the case not using it to defend him though has his mental health state been tested? as has his I.Q? maybe he acted on implusive which can become dangerous when reach this stage too late gone too far for help!

 

I agree with you smiley. There does appear to be other things going on.

Obsession is part of Aspergers. But not everyone with Aspergers is obsessed with the internet or whether the government is hiding the fact that they have found aliens - which I think is the reason Gary used to explain his hacking. If he felt the USA government were 'lying' did he feel justified in trying to find out the truth?

I don't think he was just a 'hacker' because there does seem to be suggestions of paranoia and a belief in conspiracy theories etc going on along with his search for 'proof of aliens' obsession.

But this is one man, with his difficulties and his behaviour that has got him into criminal trouble.

But how could the media even begin to explain the many and varied ways that having any condition can affect every individual differently? Only we know that because we experience it ourselves or through our family members on the spectrum.

I think the NAS has become involved because of the likelihood that he could be extradicted and they have said that his diagnosis has not been taken into account. Whether or not we agree with that approach, that is how our legal system works.

Every criminal who has legal representation will present all kinds of information as relevant to how it affected the individual and caused them to be where they are today ie. in court. Even the probation service interviews every criminal and goes through their past to try to find 'reasons' for why the crime was committed and to make suggestions on the most suitable sentence.

Unfortunately the media is always full of stereotypes because its a catch headline and it saves having to use words (and print space equals money) to go into indepth explanations.

I don't think people from the UK should be extradicted to the USA because it doesn't work the other way around. I also think that family should be able to visit family members in prison, which would be impossible if anyone is extradicted.

But I also think it is entirely right that others are not happy with this and are expressing their concerns about how Aspergers has been portrayed in the media and how the NAS has approached this case.

These stereotypes are worrying, yet in some cases they are true. I have a neighbour whose sister is a teacher. One of her students has Aspergers and recently had to be moved to a different university because he became obsessed with this teacher and was stalking her to the extent that he followed her on holiday. The professionals involved were of the opinion that this behaviour was due to Aspergers. So that might be the case for some people. But obviously, as a mum of an autistic boy, I don't want people thinking he is a potential stalker or potential anything.

[bid]

Well, well, well...

 

I have received a very swift response from the BBC directly from the author of the article. He has altered it so the part where AS is introduced now reads: "He said that Martin has Asperger's syndrome and struggles to express his feelings" - the reference to suffering and no feelings has been removed - (same link as previously posted) and thanked me for the reference to the NAS media site and the rest of the NAS site.

 

Sometimes people do listen. Thanks Kathryn for suggesting I write to them.

 

Wow, brilliant!

 

Well done you!

 

Bid

[Karen A]

Well, well, well...

 

I have received a very swift response from the BBC directly from the author of the article. He has altered it so the part where AS is introduced now reads: "He said that Martin has Asperger's syndrome and struggles to express his feelings" - the reference to suffering and no feelings has been removed - (same link as previously posted) and thanked me for the reference to the NAS media site and the rest of the NAS site.

 

Sometimes people do listen. Thanks Kathryn for suggesting I write to them.

 

Well done Mumble.It is good to know the BBC listen on occasions.Karen.