violence

[cattubb]

Hi all,

 

just wanted a bit of advice and i guess a lot of you have experience in this area!

 

My son (5 AS) hasn't been too good all week i.e. very distant, no cooperation, no conversation, up late at night the usual stuff but more pronounced. Anyway, recently his violent outbursts seem to be getting more frequent again but only ever towards me and his sister (3). Yesterday was the worst one for ages, probably because hes also getting stronger as he gets older. Anyway yesterday he flipped out totally and attacked me and his sister and as a result i now have a black eye and my arms and legs are covered in bruises (luckily my daughter got away with it as i was stood between him and her). Theres no point me putting him in another room to burn him self out because he just follows me round kicking and punching and he is incredibly strong for someone so small. Then today he bit me through my coat which is padded, and now i've also got teeth marks in my arm. Usually I think i'm quite hardened to it but this time its really upset me.

 

My question is this. My son will not even acknowledge what he has done he just denys everything. How do you teach a child who you can't even talk to that these things are wrong? He even saw me crying my eyes out yesterday and he didn't even bat an eye lid. I know its part of his AS but its really hard to take.

 

Anyway, moan of the day over, any advice would be gratefully accepted!

 

Thanks for listening.

 

Cat x

[Clare63]

Oh Cat, I am so sorry to hear of your experiences with your son, sounds as if something is really troubling or bothering him and he is unable to express this to you other than violence, which of course both you and your daughter should not have to put up with.

Sadly I don't have any advice, but hopefully someone will come along shortly who does.

 

<'> <'> <'>

 

Clare x x x x

[warrenpenalver]

what support do you have???

 

If you cant solve the root cause then you need to be able to manage the violence without him or your family getting hurt.

 

I remember when our ship did some charity work with a childrens group they had a special restraining technique that prevented the child from hitting anyone and also meant the adult restraining the child didnt get hurt either.

 

maybe you could be taught something similar to help you.

[KarenT]

My son is 9 now and we've been working through anger and aggression issues for some time now, so we rarely have the encounters you've just described although they used to be frequent. But I have to say that immediately afterwards he'd have no recollection of the incident, as though he'd had a temporary blackout at the point where he'd lost control. This may be happening to your boy and you might need to point out that it DID happen in the course of his rage. The only way you can work through this is to trace back to what triggered his rage in the first place and work on that particular issue - maybe there was a noise that upset him, his food not being right, something someone said to him, it could be anything. But if you can address that and make him more comfortable with it he'll learn how to cope with it and not respond with the anger and aggression he's used to using.

 

It won't happen over night and you will need to put in an awful lot of work, but anger and aggression issues can be addressed successfully if you do it in a way that's specific to the child, involving their personal interests and motivators. Remember that his behaviour is most likely coming from a frustration at not being able to manage a situation, rather than blatant naughtiness, and by helping him to understand and cope you can turn the behaviour around.

 

Karen

x

[JsMum]

Many things you have described from the first line it sounds like he has high anxieties and is avioding a task because it is too much for him, it may be sensory, Smell, touch, sound, taste? or social skills, sharing, taking turns, waiting, getting excited, over welmed and it could be a mix especially as his routine is distrubed due to lack of sleep and maybe he just cant contol his own emotions and feelings at the moment.

 

for me four - seven was the worse time ever and over the years we have worked on his difficulties of sensory and aggression and we have a number of things in place, we have widgets and we have been doing social stories, explaining to him a seqence or a routine has really helped J know what is happening, we can set out rules of no kicking, biting, punching, nipping, pushing, throwing objects when angry all in visually displayed,

 

then we have a list of what we can do when we are angry like kick a punch bag, scream and shout for a set period, jump on a trampoline, run or walk somewhere, what ever it is its physical to get rid of the adrenalin, thats the guilty party that doesnt let your son take on responsibilities for his actions because his own fight or flight system takes over, talking about anger is a really good way to help your son identify with the phsical reactions because been angry is very scarey because when we are angry we have added strength and loose all inability to reason because our mind has gone into fight or flight and its instict is to survvive so less communication is essential, just calming soothing reasurance and support will help your son start to cope, its ok mum is here, or breath in and out, then after the storm a quiet place to zone out, calming cds, light lighting, a blanket, and a teddy, to calm right down, then when all is calm offer some form of expressive release, art, crafts, music, then later talk about the feelings and try and get him to identify his own reactions.

 

A great book to read and get more ideas is a book called the OUT OF SYNCS CHILD and its co book OUT OF SYNCS CHILD HAS FUN.

 

There will be a trigger, I have found that one out, and mostly for J its a high anxiety around a task and he will aviod at all cost, even if he shoots himself in the foot.

 

JsMum

[Karen A]

thats the guilty party that doesnt let your son take on responsibilities for his actions because his own fight or flight system takes over

 

Jsmum.I thought it was worth posting to give another perspective on the above...although I may have misunderstood.

If a child has a meltdown and the resulting behaviour is challenging and violent I do not believe it is helpful to allow the child not to take on some responsibiltity for their actions.

My younger son Ben exhibited very challenging behaviour when he was anxious and upsett that resulted in violence towards his elder [NT] very supportive brother.To allow our younger son to exhibit such behaviour without taking firm action would have given our elder son the message that we expected him to accept physical violence directed towards him because his brother's needs were considered more important.I would not consider that situation to be appropriate.

Also children whether AS or not need to learn to behave in ways that are socially acceptable.Society as a whole may make some allowances for a five year old that exhibits challenging behaviour due to a meltdown resulting from sensory difficulties.However when that child is a teenager or adult...schools,police,magistrates and employers will not be so sympathetic or supportive.

 

I do believe that wherever possible it is important to use all available information to help deal with anxiety and sensory difficulties in an attempt to prevent meltdowns .I am also not suggesting that meltdowns should be punished.However I do not think it is appropriate to suggest that a carer who has been subjected to an aggressive outburst provide calming soothing reasurance and support.Surely this provides positive reenforcement and makes it more likely that the meltdown will happen again.I also do not know many individuals who would be able to remain calm and undistressed in the face of violence.I am not sure it is healthy for a carere's mental health to place themself in this situation either.

I used a strategy of withdrawing all attention...if possible removing Ben to another safe space.

I think exercise is an excellent way of managing frustration...I use the gym and swimming myself.However I think that encouraging a young child with AS to kick and punch a punch may give a very confusing message.Such a young child may not be able to understand why kicking a punchbag is encouraged whilst kicking another person or object is not.At some point with an older child these strategies may be useful.However I think that very firm clear consistent boundaries need to be soundly in place in the first instance.Karen.

[Karen A]

what support do you have???

 

If you cant solve the root cause then you need to be able to manage the violence without him or your family getting hurt.

 

I remember when our ship did some charity work with a childrens group they had a special restraining technique that prevented the child from hitting anyone and also meant the adult restraining the child didnt get hurt either.

 

maybe you could be taught something similar to help you.

 

Hi All.I thought I would mention that whilst there are specialist restraining techniques as mentioned above it is very important that they are taught by a qualified professional following a full assessment of the needs of the child, the skills and needs of the individual being trained and the environment... to ensure safety and appropriateness for all involved.Such intervention would not usually be suggested unless other stategies had been exhausted.

 

Cattub.I don't know how much support you have from other agencies.It may well be worth asking for a referal to Camhs for an assesment.

Another option may be to obtain support from school.It may be worth looking at the support in school....are there factors at school that could be causing anxiety and challenging behaviour at home.?.is there support in school and is it adequate ? Have behaviour support team or ASD outreach been providing input and can they suggest strategies that might help at home ?..I am sorry to ask so many questions but I am not sure about your situation.

In our case Ben's behaviour difficulties at home were addressed partly by the provision of adequate support in school...si it is worth exploring wider factors.Karen.

[Karen A]

Cattub.I have a bit more info now from some of your previous posts.Is the paediatrician that did the DISCO etc still providing any input ? It might be quicker to ask your GP to request an urgent appointment with the paediatrician before you ask for a referal to Camhs.Also I am not sure whether your DS is in specialist educational provision.If he is then the school may have a teacher,home support worker or EP who may be able to support you...rather than ASD outreach who support parents and children inmainstream.

It is certainly worth meeting with the school to discuss the difficulties you are having at home.The school may be able to help you explore possible causes for the change in your DSs behaviour..it may be anxiety.However DS could be perhaps frustrated due to difficulties communicating or be frustrated due to increased awareness of his difficulties/differences .It could also be that DS is being upsett by other children at school or even copying the behaviour of another child.

I guess what I am saying in a rather long winded way is that the first step is to try to find out whether there are any other causes of the behaviour change/anxiety/distress before you jump in and look at solutions.. <'> <'> Karen.

[JsMum]

I guess what I am saying in a rather long winded way is that the first step is to try to find out whether there are any other causes of the behaviour change/anxiety/distress before you jump in and look at solutions.. Karen.

 

 

I am already aware of the many triggers of Js behaviour, but he still has to do many of the tasks that raise his anxieties otherwise we wouldnt do anything, go anywhere and we would be just doing what J wants to do, and dictating all day long,

 

what I am trying to do with J and his aggression is help him understand the causes, and one of the reasons he doesnt take on any responsibilites is because he doesnt admit any of the actions because his self control has gone in a rage, reasoning is very difficult, in fact any conversation is, so I reasure him because when he really goes he is actually scared to death, his own reactions scare him, so I reasure him and sometimes he cant do this until he has got his anger out, so thats why I recommend a punchbag, ours is a free standing one and I would rather he learns to release his anger on a punch bag than bottle it up or hurt someone, all the books I have read on Anger management recommend a punch bag, even little children, the bag I have is a children one and it is effective, we have kick pads too and other kick boxing equiptment as for J he really does need to kick and punch it out.

 

The visual displays on no kicking and punching is actually towards people and he is working throw a anger management booklet to help him develop further release coping skills.

 

Anger is a major issue and it does need to be managed effectively as it will impact on the child mental health and cause mental health disorders in adulthood.

 

Many people use many coping skills in managing their anger, for many adults this is disguist in Alcoholism, drug dependancy, depression ect...because they havent learnt effective coping skills when they are angry.

 

Anger management for us is a process, physical, emotional and psychological and whats the most important of all is the way I react to J when he is angry, if I shout, give too many commands, explain what hes doing into too much language it just fuels Js anger, if I loose my temper it doesnt give him a positive role model, if I give body language that stimilates J then this again adds to it, so I have to ensure that I dont give him too much of a reaction, obvously when he has really hurt me I cry but what I do is very important because for J he will go further than the red line and his goal is a big massive reaction from me.

 

When its all done with the first thing he says is a heart felt sorry, and he really is but only after the event and then afterwards he acts as though nother ever occured.

 

I have no where safe to place J, I am trying to move to a property that will give me an extra room to have a safe room but at the moment I dont have anywhere safe to contain him.

 

I cant withdraw my attention from J as in a act of challenging behaviour I am too busy protecting myself, or dodging objects, or having to prevent him from harming me or someone else.

 

Thats why I have the punch bag, the reasurance words, all I want J to do is take the first small step in self control and this takes different steps because anything can set him off, and some days its over with in five mins other times its five hours.

 

JsMum

[cattubb]

Hi everyone, thanks for your replies and sorry i've only just managed to answer, we lost our internet connection yesterday.

 

I am beginning to recognise when Charlie has a meltdown because of sensory overload and the behaviour is different to when he is in a rage. For example we went to a friends house yesterday and he went crazy (as he does whenever there are too many people around). He will shreik, headbang, run around in a frenzy basically, however he does not lash out in these situations (unless i try and hold him to calm him down. He cannot tolerate being held or cuddled). When he behaves like this we usually let him burn himself out (luckily we have very understanding and patient friends)

 

His rages are occuring literally whenever i ask him to do something he doesn't want to do, or rather to stop doing something i.e. he is a computer manic and if i ask him to come off it for whatever reason i.e. his dinner, to go out etc, he goes crazy. He is so single minded that everything just has to be his way and thats all there is to it. The worrying thing is he just shows no remorse, in fact he won't even admit hes done anything. Theres certainly no point me trying to reason with him at the time because hes just not 'with it' if you know what i mean.

 

Our situation at the moment is that I have a befriender once every fortnight and thats all the help i have at home. He is in mainstream school at the moment but the school have expressed a concern that he might need to go to one of the 2 schools here with units for children with social and communication disorders. He has no specific support at school but the classroom assistant (hes in reception) is spending the majority of her time with him. The ed phsycologist is going into see him on Wednesday to see how hes doing because she feels that when she last saw him at school he was fine. Which begs the question why do the school think he needs to move??

 

Cattubb

[JsMum]

When you want your son to come of the computer how do you ask him, does he have a warning card, I want you to save what your doing because soon Tea will be ready, or give a time scale if he understands time, we have a time tracker for J to see how long 5 mins is.

 

We are waiting for a time timer too, this is a visual countdown clockface.

 

Warning cards are good because they help the child prepare for the change and except that there is a task to do, his reward could be that he can have extra time on the pc next time.

 

Keep a daily diary and one that I used was a ABC because this gave me ideas when it happened again.

 

Also if he is having sensory difficulties it may be he is also having processing difficulties too and it will take a longer for him to recieve information, then act on it, so give a 15 second gap for his brain to ingage the information.

 

If after 2 warnings then a consequence needs to be given straight away, No tv for 15 mins, or other items that are treasured withdrawn for a period time again using a time tracker so he understands time scale.

 

Its hard for many NT children to come off the computer/games so for your son he will need a lot more support to get him to coperate.

 

JsMum

[cmuir]

Hi

 

My son was incredibly aggressive and violent towards me (scoring keys down my arms, deliberately knocking hot cups of tea out of my hands and over me, clawing at my eyes/face, kicking, biting and nipping, etc). He's 6 now and thankfully all of that has lessened now. I found that other than ignoring tactics ie withdrawing eye contact/not engaging him in conversation helped, basically I had nothing else (time out didn't work) to work with. However, I believe with age and maturity that R is more responsive and accepting when being reasoned with without getting into a big debate. I've found that by giving him two warnings (just so there's not mistaking what's being instructed) about continued bad behaviour that he'd lose his favourite toys/games/dvds (one thing) for a day (we start afresh the next day). In addition, if eg a 'friend' is round and he becomes controlling and manic, then he now knows that the 'friend' has to go home - in addition, that 'friend' will not want to play with him. Admittedly, things worsened (I didn't think things could get worse!), but once my son got the message that there are consequences to his bad behaviour, then the violence has lessened. I'm incredibly careful to cut R off when he tries to draw me into an argument eg denying that he hit me when my bruise says that he did! I make a statement and tell him that I'm not arguing with him. Just this morning, R insisted on sitting in the front of the car and refused to get in the back into his car seat. We ended up sitting in the driveway for 15 minutes until he finally did as he was asked - I told him that we were going nowhere until he was in his car seat with his seatbelt on. It's not a miracle, but things have improved. I guess reason why I didn't impose consequences much earlier were because I felt that the issue would then become about the toy that's been confiscated and not about why that happened. I do standby that at the time because my son was younger then, however, he's older now and is more able to observe/listen/learn. Time out didn't work because I genuinely didn't/don't feel R is able to regulate his own emotions, which is why we end up in the situations that we do. R genuinely seems to have a desire to try and be complaint, especially now he knows I will carry out the things that I say I will. In addition, I can also see that R is an incredibly astute little boy and that if he'd been allowed to behave in the way that he did, then I'd be in much bigger trouble the older/bigger/stronger he becomes.

 

I purchased coloured sandtimers (PM if you want more info). They're coloured coded and are available in 1/3/5/10/15/30 mins. I purchased 5/10/15 min ones to forewarn R that in eg 15 mins it was time to stop doing what he was doing. Initially, I got them thrown at me, but thankfully they're very hardy and in time R responded very well. In fact, I've seen him tell his dad (and give him the sand timer) that in 5 minutes he has to come off the computer.

 

In terms of gaining compliance, R was extremely difficult. He'd order me around telling me to get this, get that. On the other hand if I asked him for anything, different story. I tend to be careful about how I phrase things ie if Robert asks for a package of crisps, I'll instruct him 'when you pick your jacket up off the floor and hang it up on the peg, then you can have crisps' rather than saying 'you can't have your crisps untll you've picked up your jacket' (he simply hears 'can't have'!). Again, this took a bit of time and I think R was limit testing.

 

I also purchased a few fantastic gadgets for R's room to try and make it a more calming (sensory) place to be eg large plasma ball and Laser Cosmos. Again, PM me if you want further details.

 

Illustrated social stories may help to alleviate any anxieties. I've worked out that R gets particularly stressed/anxious in the morning just before school - that's when the trouble usually starts. ASD kids are much more able to process visual information than verbal, so some instruction signs might help.

 

Hope I don't come across as preaching (I'm no expert), just thought I'd share things that have worked for me.

 

Best wishes.

 

Caroline.

[rainbow queen]

i will second that what cmuir has said there

 

 

In terms of gaining compliance, R was extremely difficult. He'd order me around telling me to get this, get that. On the other hand if I asked him for anything, different story. I tend to be careful about how I phrase things ie if Robert asks for a package of crisps, I'll instruct him 'when you pick your jacket up off the floor and hang it up on the peg, then you can have crisps' rather than saying 'you can't have your crisps untll you've picked up your jacket' (he simply hears 'can't have'!). Again, this took a bit of time and I think R was limit testing.

 

 

 

i was having loads problems with this-ive since tryed remember to change my tone and the way i phrase it and it does work-well more often then it used to-

 

i also have same probs with violence.......and the lengths he will go to to start an argument are unbelivable-he tryed at tea time-over and over -when he relised i was changing the subject and distracting him he gave up-but boy does he know how to try -i have probs reconising this before it happens -im trying to work on it myself-particully if im tired or focused on other things -he tends to get me then as i engage my mouth before thinking and before you know it -its a blown out argument.

i know its going take some time this and it dont come naturally to me as it may to others but im going try my hardest

[Karen A]

Cattub if your son is having some support from the TA in class and there is the possibility that further input or another school might be considered in the future it is important that the school document and formalise the support in place.I would think that your DS should be on the SEN register and you should have met with the SENCO to discuss and plan an IEP.If the school do not have documentation and evidence to demonstrate what strategies have been used then the LEA may be reluctant to consider an Assessment for a Statement...that is likely to be needed in order to obtain a place at a school with a specialist unit attached.

Others here have made lots of useful suggestions for managing your son's challenging behaviour.I just thought it was worth flagging up that it is worth pushing for appropriate support in school.I know from personal experience that appropriate support in school can help to reduce frustration and challenging behaviour at home.

It would be worth asking to meet with the SENCO to review the support that is in place.Parent Partnership may be helpful in supporting you although they do vary from one area to the next.Karen.

[Karen A]

Hi again.I thought I would add that it would be worth asking the school some questions about your DSs behaviour in school and how it is being managed.

If you get the impression that the EP is still saying that things are fine after Wedensday you could ask to meet with him/her to discuss your concerns.

Karen.

[cattubb]

Hi Karen,

 

i think it is so important that we sort out his support at school as soon as possible as i can see the bridge widening between him and his class mates as each day passes and thats got to be stressful for him (He does tell me more or less every day that he hates school and has no friends ). We do already have a record of need in place which is good, i'm not sure if things are done the same here (we're in the Channel Islands) but from what i understand a record of need will allow him access to any support the CAMHS team decide he needs.

 

And you're right, theres been some great advice, thanks everyone.

 

Cat

[Karen A]

Hi Karen,

 

i think it is so important that we sort out his support at school as soon as possible as i can see the bridge widening between him and his class mates as each day passes and thats got to be stressful for him (He does tell me more or less every day that he hates school and has no friends ). We do already have a record of need in place which is good, i'm not sure if things are done the same here (we're in the Channel Islands) but from what i understand a record of need will allow him access to any support the CAMHS team decide he needs.

 

And you're right, theres been some great advice, thanks everyone.

 

Cat

 

Ah...... Sorry I have done this before.....I completely forgett that anyone here lives anywhere other than GB.

I don't know if anyone else here lives in the Channel Islands and knows how the system for SEN and education works.

If you contact NAS they may well have some information.I think that although they offer advice on provision in GB they may have information on helpful contacts and organisations in the Channel Islands.

 

Parents noticing the gap widening between their child and peers as the child progresses through primary school is a fairly common issue here.

I think that a lot of development happens in social communication happens fairly quickly at this age...relationships become more complex and so children with AS do often begin to experience difficulties.

Before Ben was in year 2 nobody thought he had any SEN at all.....people thought he was just bright with a bit of an attitude problem.Karen.

[Deedee]

We too had an awful time when our son was this age,his weapon of choice was his head ... he actually broke my pubic bone with a headbutt when he was only 4 !!!

His frustration in processing language caused a lot of his violent behaviour,and also his sensory issues.I can't really add any more to the wonderful advice above but just wanted to let you know it will get better <'>