Britain's challenging children

[something_different]

I'm just watching it on 4 plus 1 now

[baddad]

Yes, I watched it...

Found it really interesting and a very good argument put forward for early and appropriate intervention and solid co-operation between schools and home...

 

One really interesting aspect - all of the children included in the programme were experiencing exactly the same kinds of problems and displaying exactly the same kinds of behaviours that many of the children mentioned on this forum experience, yet autism was never highlighted as a factor. I've suggested many times in the past (and been rounded upon for saying it!) that targeting autism as the root cause of these behaviours does our children a huge injustice and disservice. This programme highlighted the fact that these behaviours are behaviours that all children can demonstrate and the problems are problems that all children can encounter.

The little boy at the end - who had achieved huge breakthroughs in only four months once home and school started working together and he started receiving appropriate support - summed it up perfectly when he said: 'You never know what you can achieve until you try'. If he had never been given the opportunity to live up to those expectations - had they been written off because of circumstances outside of school or through assumptions about what he could achieve - his story could have ended very differently.

 

Some huge achievements by kids and staff and parents alike, and all the more impressive considering the high ratio of children needing support in the featured school(s)... Let's hope more LA's pick up on some of the ideas presented.

 

L&P

 

BD

[cmuir]

Hi

 

I watched the programme and recorded it. Certainly gives food for thought. I did wonder whether 3 members of staff supporting one child or if physically lifting/escorting/guiding (whatever one might want to call it) a child because they refuse to go to class was necessary. On the whole, I thought allowing a child time out of main classroom to attend nurture group was without doubt the right route. In addition, staff worked closely with parents to ensure consistency in management, etc worked very well.

 

Sad that only 4% of UK schools have nurture groups. Apparently costs range from �40-55k per year. The massive achievements that these kids made demonstrate that that's money well spent - point is that early intervention makes the world of difference and actually saves money.

 

It was interesting that some of the kids exhibited the same types of behaviour as my son (who has AS). Programme touched upon possible reasons for two of the kids' behaviour - alcoholism and having had the move around a lot. Whilst these types of behaviours are not exclusive to kids with autism, I think it would have been right to either not mention reasons or point out that there are numerous reasons as to why a child behaves in that way including alcoholism, abuse, and autism, etc. (don't want people assuming that I'm an alcoholic mother!).

 

Well worth watching and I'll be presenting my son's HT with a copy tomorrow.

 

Caroline.

Edited January 6, 2009 by cmuir

[baddad]

Hi

 

I watched the programme and recorded it. Certainly gives food for thought. I did wonder whether 3 members of staff supporting one child or if physically lifting/escorting/guiding (whatever one might want to call it) a child because they refuse to go to class was necessary. On the whole, I thought allowing a child time out of main classroom to attend nurture group was without doubt the right route. In addition, staff worked closely with parents to ensure consistency in management, etc worked very well.

 

Sad that only 4% of UK schools have nurture groups. Apparently costs range from �40-55k per year. The massive achievements that these kids made demonstrate that that's money well spent - point is that early intervention makes the world of difference and actually saves money.

 

It was interesting that some of the kids exhibited the same types of behaviour as my son (who has AS). Programme touched upon possible reasons for two of the kids' behaviour - alcoholism and having had the move around a lot. Whilst these types of behaviours are not exclusive to kids with autism, I think it would have been right to either not mention reasons or point out that there are numerous reasons as to why a child behaves in that way including alcoholism, abuse, and autism, etc. (don't want people assuming that I'm an alcoholic mother!).

 

Well worth watching and I'll be presenting my son's HT with a copy tomorrow.

 

Caroline.

 

Hi all/Cmuir -

 

I had the luxury of a 'night off' last night so was able to watch all of the documentary. The interview section was short, but they did offer some insight on the behaviours of the other children too. In the case of the girl featured they highlighted that a teacher she had developed a very close relationship with had been forced to leave the school through ill health, and the girls behaviour had deteriorated dramatically since. I took this to suggest loss/abandonment issues, and perhaps a mistrust of relationships with adults/authority figures generally (as she was not forming any new bond prior to the interventions). They didn't cover the girls home background in the programme. They did show a couple of interviews with the mother of another boy concerned (the mum at the end who was offering an endorsement of the interventions and saying that all LA's should fund such schemes) and she very bravely acknowledged that many of his problems arose from her parenting techniques, highlighting inconsistency and arguments as the main problems. She said at one point: 'I am a good parent - I never used to be, but I am now'. At no point was it suggested she was a 'bad' mother, and her commitment to her children was never questioned, but the close liaison with school and the outreach team highlighted changes that could be made in the home to facilitate change in the children and her relationship with them. The mother who had had alcohol problems expressed exactly the same opinions and attached the same importance on home/school/outreach liaison and a unified approach to effect changes.

 

I totally agree that there are lots of reasons why children may display such behaviours, but as I said in my initial post I don't see autism as a 'reason'. Autism is a lifelong condition - if you view it as the 'reason' for behaviours then the behaviours themselves will, by definition, be lifelong, which doesn't appear to be the case. Almost all the autistic children I know have had major behavioural issues in early childhood, but most start to learn more appropriate responses as they get older. They suffer the same stresses and 'symptoms', and will sometimes experience 'meltdowns', but generally - especially with 'High Functioning Autism' (sorry for using that hideous term, but can't think of anything better) - the behaviours themselves are far less frequently enacted. My own son at six/seven was a very different child to the one who won a gold award for behaviour last term. Had it been accepted at six or seven that autism was the 'reason' for his behaviour and the behaviour accommodated on the basis of that assumption he would probably still have those behavioural issues today. Autism is not the cause of aggressive/challenging behaviour, but it can have a big impact on emotional wellbeing and understanding and the learning processes involved in achieving understanding. All the more reason for consistency, clear rules and definitions and all the boundaries and sanctions that go with that.

 

With regard to the boy being restrained and the staff ratio I really didn't see any other option that could have worked. A biggish male teacher might have been able to restrain him single handedly, but not appropriately or in a way that would have been safe for either himself or the child. Every other option for moving the child had been exhausted (two and a half hours spent on getting him into class in the morning and exactly the same scenario evolving in the afternoon - and they said this was happening pretty much on a daily basis), and they had very good reasons for wanting him contained within a the safe environment offered by the 'BIP' room. If you took that part of the process away, removing in the child's mind the expectations for compromise and compliance with the rules and the associated sanctions/consequences the whole thing falls down.

 

One thing that struck me. We saw a working model of a holistic intervention service that included the following elements:

 

Close liaison between school/ Outreach services/Parents, including home visits and advice on parenting.

Clearly defined boundaries/expectations and consequences practised at home and school, including safe and appropriate physical restraint where indicated as necessary.

Expectations of attendance

Sanctions involving exclusion from school agreed in advance as a 'last resort'.

A 'no blame' policy on negative behaviours that applies to all children in the school - not just those highlighted for special attention by the intervention service.

 

The results here, and the logic of early intervention, suggests this is something we should see in all schools, but if I'm honest I can't see it working in all schools because I don't see many parents of children with behavioural problems (and I'm not just talking about parents of disabled children here, so please don't take that the wrong way) who would be willing to accept those prerequisites, which would have to be the starting point. The issue of whether schools/staff/LA's were willing/able to deliver those conditions is certainly hugely important too, but it's really the secondary consideration because the resources couldn't work without the willingness to access and actively support those services.

 

As Cmiur said - very interesting stuff, and definitely food for thought

 

L&P

 

BD

[cmuir]

Hi

 

Baddad, there's one or two things which I have a different viewpoint on, but nevertheless you have a valid and different perspective on the programme, so thank you for that.

(For the record, I personally don't see autism as the (sole) reason for bad behaviour. Any child can behave badly. In my son's case, I do think that because of his inability to cope in certain situations because he has AS, he can behave very badly/inappropriately due to being unable to express his frustration in an appropriate manner. Totally agree that ASD kids can be taught/learn coping strategies (maturity and understanding come into it also), thus resulting in improved behaviour. Another debate for another time maybe.)

 

I was thinking about the programme this morning and another thing that struck me was how similar these nurture groups were to the way in which two EBD schools which I recently visited (in Edinburgh). Their ultimate aim is to provide support with the aim of re-integrating kids that can be reintegrated back into mainstream school. They work closely with parents and mainstream schools with a tailored (as opposed to 'one size fits all') approach. With dedication and committment from all involved, kids with behavioural problems can do really well. Have to say I was impressed by these schools.

 

I'm in the process of trying to decide whether my son should stay in mainstream or move him to an EBD school or ASD specific unit. I do feel that R is somewhat in the twilight zone - he doesn't quite fit in to either 'camp'. My heart and my head tell me that if he received the level of support that was allocated to him by the LA, then he could do well in mainstream. Unfortunately, the school doesn't have the budget to cater for everyone's needs and has been using the support allocated for R to support other kids in the class as well. I'm really upset about this, but genuinely feel that the school's hands are tied so to speak. If R had a nurture group within his mainstream school, I feel certain he'd cope very well. It's sad that kids like R who could do well with support in mainstream can be forced into special schools which aren't necessarily right for them. I think nurture groups could plug the gap very well in some instances.

 

Caroline.

[baddad]

In my son's case, I do think that because of his inability to cope in certain situations because he has AS, he can behave very badly/inappropriately due to being unable to express his frustration in an appropriate manner.

 

Yep, absolutely agree - that's what I meant about autism and emotional well-being, understanding and the learning process . Those things do present barriers and extend the learning curve, but I don't think that in real terms they are that different to the barriers implied by the other kinds of problems that give rise to 'challenging' behaviour. I also think the strategies that work in helping overcome those barriers are pretty much universal, but how they are 'tweaked' is very dependent on the individual

 

I was thinking about the programme this morning and another thing that struck me was how similar these nurture groups were to the way in which two EBD schools which I recently visited (in Edinburgh). Their ultimate aim is to provide support with the aim of re-integrating kids that can be reintegrated back into mainstream school. They work closely with parents and mainstream schools with a tailored (as opposed to 'one size fits all') approach. With dedication and committment from all involved, kids with behavioural problems can do really well. Have to say I was impressed by these schools.

 

I'm in the process of trying to decide whether my son should stay in mainstream or move him to an EBD school or ASD specific unit. I do feel that R is somewhat in the twilight zone - he doesn't quite fit in to either 'camp'. My heart and my head tell me that if he received the level of support that was allocated to him by the LA, then he could do well in mainstream. Unfortunately, the school doesn't have the budget to cater for everyone's needs and has been using the support allocated for R to support other kids in the class as well. I'm really upset about this, but genuinely feel that the school's hands are tied so to speak. If R had a nurture group within his mainstream school, I feel certain he'd cope very well. It's sad that kids like R who could do well with support in mainstream can be forced into special schools which aren't necessarily right for them. I think nurture groups could plug the gap very well in some instances.

 

Caroline.

 

Again, agree with all of that, and particularly with the idea of focussed 'nurture' groups with the intent on inclusion rather than what we have at the moment, which, sadly seems to be more about 'isolation tank' special units operating within the mainstream school's grounds. Don't get me wrong, these units often do a fantastic job with the kids themselves, but often the 'policies' (or sometimes the nature of the school population itself) of the mainstream to which they're attached leave no practical opportunities for an inclusive education. If a unit is attached to a main school that already has a lousy reputation on inclusion or things like bullying & truancy then the decision to site the special unit within it was probably made for the wrong reasons

 

L&P

 

BD

[smiley]

Hi all/Cmuir -

 

Autism is not the cause of aggressive/challenging behaviour, but it can have a big impact on emotional wellbeing and understanding and the learning processes involved in achieving understanding. All the more reason for consistency, clear rules and definitions and all the boundaries and sanctions that go with that.

 

L&P

 

BD

 

I haven't had the chance to watch the programme yet, although quite a few parents have told me & called me about it today - I'll be catching up with it tonight on iPlayer .. time permitting..

 

But, I just wanted to agree wholeheartedly with BD - The quote i have highlighted above............. it is so, SO, SO good to read..

 

[bid]

My own son at six/seven was a very different child to the one who won a gold award for behaviour last term.

 

Just noticed this...well done, Ben!! <'>

 

Bid

Edited January 7, 2009 by bid

[JsMum]

 

 

It was very interesting programme, I did feel though that though there was problems within the home one of those boys did display a lot of Autistic behaviours, and wonder if the progress was also a result of extra support and other sen legislation, such as statemented, his needs been identified and his needs met throw improved provisions and services, not just the nurture programme, which was also a fantastic provision and like others have said, it is not stabley funded, that must be a very big worry.

 

It was a good programme.

 

JsMum

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[lynne]

I think the nurture programme was very good and thought provoking.

 

 

Lots of children do not have a mother and father role as an example through no fault of there own. If children do not have good role models (this could be aunts uncle grandparents etc) than this can reflect in the childs behaviour.

 

 

With families living further apart and people either not marrying or going through divorce. Long term over usuage of alcohol or drugs infront of children, than this can have an affect on children.

 

Being a parent is one of the most difficult things in the world.

Edited January 8, 2009 by lynne