Violent behaviour/Aggression at home?

[isme]

Can anyone help? I am willing to try pretty much anything at this point in time! Ben has 2 younger sisters (Hazel aged 5 and Fern aged 4) and he can be SO aggressive towards them for no apparent (to me) reason. Its like a light switch, he can be loving and hugging them, talking to them really nicely then all of a sudden he will explode in a fit of rage, he has been known to pick up Fern and almost throw her accross the room.. I have tried asking him WHY or WHAT causes it, but he doesn't know.

When I asked the consultant for any ideas to help I was told that it was because Ben was seeing things in a different way, that I had to see things in the same way and to "not let him have everything his own way, but make sure that he has his own space all the time and keep his sisters out of his way." It's not that I disagree with this, but I'm not sure HOW to do it itms? We only have a small 3 bed house with 1 living room, ben has his own room (which is just so untidy and he cant/wont tidy it and getrs upset if I do it for him) so what do I do?

I can't see any obvious triggers... Any ideas?

[baddad]

Can't give you any pointers on 'why', but I think that's the secondary issue here anyway. The most important issue is to stop the behaviour before one of the other children get's hurt...

How do you respond when your son does this? Are you inadvertantly rewarding the behaviour (if you are concentrating on your son afterwards, giving him attention to get to the bottom of 'why' then that's very likely even if the attention isn't attention that you would judge as a reward). Are there pyrotechnics afterwards - presumably the victims in these scenarios respond with tears/anger, and possibly the adults do too? Really interesting stuff if you haven't got a handle on the emotions involved.

How would you respond to this if your son didn't have autism? Do that first and foremost, and only differentiate if it is absolutely clear that you need to (although that said, for most it proves that the only responses that do work are the usual ones - just more rigorously enforced to make sure the message doesn't get scrambled).

Concrete boundaries, concrete expectations and concrete consequences - take all of the unknowns out of the equation and make sure any rewards/sanctions are rewards and sanctions that have some meaning for him. A sanction that he's not fussed about won't have any effect, a reward that he's not fussedabout won't have any effect.

There's no point asking him for explanations - he's an 8 year old kid. 8 year old kids, AS or NT haven't got the emotional understanding/maturity to know. They do understand the far simpler concepts of 'Yes' and 'No', but they take their lead on which behaviours are 'yes' (okay) and 'no' (not okay) from their role models.

 

Hope that helps

 

L&P

 

BD

[bid]

An idea that worked for us with regard to tidying his room...

 

Break the task into small, logical steps, e.g:

 

1. Pick up books and put back in bookcase.

2. Put dirty clothes into laundry basket.

3. Pick up rubbish and put into bin...etc, etc.

 

Write this out, include Widget/PECS type pictures if appropriate, laminate and stick up on a bedroom cupboard door. If you laminate, he can use a highlighter pen to cross through each step as he does it, then wipe it clean for the next time.

 

To begin with you will probably have to help him, then just be in the room giving verbal prompts, then eventually he should be able to do it more or less on his own.

 

Do you use a visual timetable? If not, they are very good for helping our kids make sense of the chaos of everyday life, as they can see what is going to happen next. If you do, pick a slot for room tidying (either 5 mins at the end of each day or a bigger slot once or twice a week).

 

Good luck

 

Bid

Edited March 2, 2009 by bid

[isme]

WOW, thanks!

 

baddad:

If he gets angry/frustrated than that is fine, its a part of life and something that comes with having kids! I wont have anyone hurting anyone else, its not necessary and its not nice. We have a time out stair, and if his (or one of the others) behaviour is unacceptable enough (ie something violent that has hurt someone) then they are removed to their room to calm down..

He has always grown up with consequences.. I have always tried to keep sanctions "immediate" rather than something that will take effect later, but its not always possible..

I must admit to getting cross and angry with him on more than one occasion, but have tried really really hard not to recently.. Although I will say something like "I am really really sad that you have done this, you have hurt your sister, you have broken something that is not yours"

 

bid:

Thank you! That seems so simple, yet something that I hadn't thought of.. s'pose "tidy your room" is more than a little vague.. loving the idea of pictorial stuff laminated! Something I would have had in abundance for the kids I worked with, spose I need to think more about what I would do when I was teaching for things like this..

 

Thank you both!

[bid]

I must admit to getting cross and angry with him on more than one occasion, but have tried really really hard not to recently..

 

I may be a horrible old trout, but I think it's perfectly OK to be cross and angry! I don't mean screeching uncontrollably (wot, me??!! ), but I think all kids need to see that some things do make other people cross and angry because they are so unacceptable, like nearly throwing your little sister across the room.

 

In the long run, I think that a sort of endlessly reasonable/reasoning approach to our kids can be more disabling than their autism. Real life is not like that: one day they will be out in the real world, where if they kick off the response will not be reasoned understanding, but a swift punch or a night in the police cells

 

I don't mean that we shouldn't have a good understanding of autism, or that we don't need to make appropriate adjustments...but autism is a signpost, it's not a 'get out of jail free' card.

 

Sorry, I've digressed I'm not implying you are doing anything wrong at all, just thinking around the subject

 

BTW, welcome to the forum I have a dx of AS myself, and have a young adult son with AS, ADHD and dyspraxia.

 

Bid

Edited March 2, 2009 by bid

[isme]

LOL TY Bid...

So its ok to admit that Im no Saint when it comes to lifein general all the time then? I do get cross, I do think that you are right, that he has to see the same as anyone that actually its not all hunky dory and that sometimes things are completely out of order and the consequence of that is that Mummy loses her temper...

I tried to be perfect, but I failed so miserably I learnt to not bother trying and to use my energy doing something useful!

Thanks for the welcome and thanks more than that for being lovely!!!

 

Oh and FTR, I often do things completely wrong, not only re the AS but regarding pretty much everything, and I would far rather someone told me!

[Sooze2]

My boy is agressive but it is lessening (for the moment) If he is agressive to his younger sisters he goes to his room - he objects but he stays there untill he has calmed down no matter how long it takes then I ask why he was agressive and make him say sorry. He will insist that he was right and they deserved it every single time but if that becomes and issue after the event back he goes to his room again. In the beggining (when he was very young) he used to come out of his room every 2 seconds but now he accepts it as he knows he won't win.

 

He won't tidy his room either, I have witdrawn privilages, the playstation, offered pocket money so I can with hold it ( ) taken his favourite toys away, not let him go to the park after school, etc etc etc etc etc but he doesn't care and doesn't notice the mess so I now do it for him when it gets so bad that I can't open the door anymore.

 

If your son doesn't like you doing it I would do it anyway and suffer the sulks and tantrums saying that either you do it your way or he does it himslef when you tell him and stick to it.

 

I can't give my son an inch lee way, if he sees a minute chink in my armour he will manipulate it and once he's won once he will try it on over everything.

 

Once he and therefore none of the family didn't go to the park for a month over his aggression and terrible attitude in general, it worked but it was hard on the rest of the family. I can see why they say you should see things from his point of view but when you have other children you have to do what you can to make your whole family's life better.

 

This is just what I did but it may work for you or it may not. I hope he becomes easier soon. Is he in year 3 now by the way? I found that school year very chalenging because there were a lot of changes going on for him - they wanted him to be more mature, sit still and the work was propper work rather than more play based - he found it very very hard. Perhaps your son is the same,

 

Sorry Ive rambled.

[isme]

Sooze ; Thank you so much for your reply!

I think you speak sense, not rambling!

 

I see exactly what you mean about juggling the needs of one and what is best for the whole family!

Yup, he is in year 3. Although apparently school isn't much of an issue, they have only had a couple of issues there, it just seems to be his sisters!

He is also manipulative, easier with his Dad who suffers with severe clinical depression (and was also told that he probably has AS too when we went for the consultants appointment for Ben! At this point the consultant called me brave!). Dad and Ben just seem to clash all the time and sometimes its hard to work out who the adult is! Like tonight, Ben wanted to watch the Richard Hammond thing on BB2 as he went to bed, fine no issue, but his remote didn't work.. I asked M (Dad) to go up to see if he could get it working.. after listening to the argument I went up, asked M to get me spare batteries and I calmed ben down explaining that it was an issue with the batteries and him shouting at me was not necessary and not appropriate I was trying to fix the problem. The reason for the row? Ben had not handed M the remote as he was doing as I had told him and getting ready for bed.. M just couldnt see that he was doing as he was told, he was not wasting m's time or being difficult..

Argh, see now I have rambled.. quite a skill of mine!

[bikemad]

Im lucky with this as ive not got the full blown aggression with ds it is more words and attitude but then again theres no siblings here bar sd now n again but I know with ds if I say tidy your room its like telling the dog to be a cat...just makes no sense n dont sink in but if I say make the bed, open the blind and put the toys on the mat into the toy box he follows far better, same with getting dressed in the morning....put on the tshirt, put on the trousers, put on the jumper....it is the only way he can follow instructions.

 

As for the incident with the remote ive had the same with my dp...ds will be following what ive told him n dp l get aggravated n tell ds off cos he wont stop mid flow n do something else n ive had to step in before now and calm ds down then RE-explain to dp that ds was on a one track job n doing what he had been told to do.

[isme]

Thanks BM..

It makes far more sense now I think about it.. I know that M needs tasks broken down, so its the same with Ben.. Sorted, I can do that.. shall be ordering a laminator!!

 

I cant thank you all enough for making me feel that Im not going mad, and that Im not alone with the various idiosyncracies (sp?) of Ben.. I just want to try to make things a little easier for him.. simple things that will help lots itms?

Loving the pictorial stuff, can easily sort that, laminator will be ordered next week.. sorted!

Thanks all!

[bikemad]

Lol your not going mad tho im sure we all feel we are on times lol. <'>

[isme]

LOL! Thank you!! :thumbs:

[Sooze2]

Trouble is with my boy is that you tell him to do something and within 5 mili seconds he's forgotten because he's seen a car he wants to take to school or a small spec of nothing that is more interesting etc pmsl!

 

As for DH, he just doesn't get involved so its all down to me really. Mainly because like you and bikemad said he causes more problems so its not worth even asking him. Nice!

 

 

[westie]

reading and relating to a lot of stuff on this thread!

 

Am using lots of visual/ list type things myself. (reminders of rules, posters about behaviour, routines for weekday mornings and evenings) my laminator has had some use over last few weeks/ days!

 

Reading some info. about ADHD/ picking up tips from others which are related to helping with room tidying, such as list broken down into stages ( a bit like bikemads post about instructions in stages working better for her son) and also a photo of his tidy bedroom to give him a clear idea of what "tidy" is! Also some suggestions to maintain focus are to put a piece of velcro under desk (kids can feel it and it helps them to refocus) and sniffing lemon also meant to help refocus on tasks.... thinking about trying. I have made/ laminated a series of cards with photos on of what he needs to take/ fetch home from school and when, i.e. each day/ mon and fri. etc. as fed up of waiting around outside while he goes back in to fetch something!

 

A book I read about anger explained its not bad emotion, it is a valid emotion, and that its the way that you deal with it that is the key to managing succesfully.

 

In terms of my 10yr old sons behaviour (difficult at home and school since age 2 1/2) it has taken a long time but we moving forward and he been doing great a lately in recognising himself when it is building, and managing to control himself and avoid meltdown (not 100% but brill compared to previous)

 

He was not so bad yr 3 at school, had good teacher but still were incidents. Yr4 was a nightmare for him but towards end of yr4 and so far this year (yr5) he has come on leaps and bounds in this area. We have tried a number of things to help him in this area, self help books reward systems. I find like baddad that explaining the rules and consequences for breaking them is a good approach - explain while calm not in heat of moment! (I have used visual aids with this). I take away computer/ tv time or stop him playing out with neighbours as consequences, only for that day/ evening so he has a fresh start the next day

 

btw: my hubby occasionally says as a punishment "you are grounded for a fortnight" which I think is pointless and even counter productive: - keeping him in for a fortnight would drive us all mad, there is nothing then for him to work hard for in the coming days, and by the end he will have forgotten why he was grounded in first place,

 

but hubby also does have his uses as often he can explain things to him and calm him where I cannot - I think because they are so similar that hubby knows what to say that will calm him down

 

One example was about a month or so ago, and he started crying and getting hysterical in bed at about 8.40pm one evening. I heard from downstairs and rushed up as I could tell he was really upset. He said to me when he could talk that he was scared to sleep and could not stop thinking about dying, was there a heaven? Then he started talking about our dog who died last year and saying he wanted there to be a heaven so he could be with our dog again, he wanted him to come back, and where was he ? Well I said without thinking "he is downstairs" - meaning his ashes were.... Imagine the big eyed, horror struck face (obviously he had not understood what I meant by it), and then I compounded the error by saying it was not him as he was, or his body but his ashes. ........EVEN BIGGER EYES/ SHOCKED FACE then "you burned my dog!!!, you are evil!!!, I hate you!!!" etc etc etc. and more hysterics..... I was stunned (mostly by my ability to say completely the wrong thing) and I did not know what to say or do to calm him, then his dad came up, and talked to him about viking beliefs (son is very into history esp. vikings) and that they burn bodies at sea as they believed that this helps souls go to heaven etc etc etc, and managed to calm him enough to sleep.

 

That's it I am always sending him up in future, obviously I can't be trusted not to put my foot in my mouth!!!

Edited March 3, 2009 by westie

[baddad]

Hi again isme

 

I hope you don't mind me pointing this out, and please understand it's not a reflection in any way on yourself or your son, but after reading a couple of your posts I'm more than a little concerned about the attitude of the consultant who diagnosed your son.

 

I know that's a huge thing to come out with, but just from two posts that i read I've had the following concerns:

 

1 - Your son's diagnosis is High Functioning Aspergers... That doesn't make any sense to me - in fact it's an oxymoron. A diagnosis of Aspergers predicts no language delay and in most cases an IQ of average or above average. What does he/she mean by 'High Functioning' if it's not a reference to IQ?

2 - He/she has made a casual diagnosis of your husband. This seems totally inappropriuate to me unless your husband was specifically seeking a diagnosis, and even in that case a referral should have been made to a specialist in adult diagnosis - which, as many adults on the spectrum will tell you is pretty hard to come by.

3 - He/She has told you you are 'very brave', which shows a completely negative attitude towards autistic people - is he she saying you are brave to attempt a relationship with an autistic partner, brave for parenting an autistic child or brave for attempting both? It's an absolutely hideous value judgement for anyone to be making about any disabled person, but coming from a professional it shows a mind-boggling lack of respect and tact.

4 - His/her response to your son's agressive behaviour was effectively to tell you to ignore it, and to expect others to avoid him or pay the consequences of not doing so. Again, that is an absolutely hideous way of viewing autistic people, is incredibly disabling for them, and - well, lets face it, just 'wrong'.

 

As I say, no reflection on you/your son whatsoever, so please don't take as such. I'm just really, really concerned when I see professionals making these sorts of comments and think they need to be challenged, because if the people 'making' the labels are making such sweeping, negative and ill-informed value judgements what hope have autistic people got of convincing the wider community that those value judgements are wrong?

 

L&P

 

BD

[joybed]

This thread has helped me realise i am not alone in DH poor way of dealing with Ms ASD. he too has (attempted) to ban him from the playstation/computer for weeks at a time and when i point out to him that it is too long a punishment (not in front of M) he gets really shirty saying he doesn,t know why he bothers. If he does attempt to calm down M he makes matters far worse and i end up shouting at them both. M is a very anxious boy who can be aggressive and very loud. this really scares his siblings who are nearly 5. DH gets very upset about the effect his behaviour has on them which I do too but i have asked him o try to be a little bit more sympathetic towards him as he is having a rough time at the moment. Only tonight Marcus was very anxious (the reason school again and the fact that i was coming to work) and was crying in his room. DH chose this time to suggest again that a residential placement would be best for him (I don,t agree as i feel he would view this as a punishment and he is too anxious to be separated from me) We had an argument again before I came to work. we dont see eye to eye at all on how to deal with M and CAMHS believe this is part of the problem as we are not consistent, perhaps too but i view him as unrelsitic in his expectations and he thinks i make too many allowances.

PS i don,t have a problem with residential placements just not right for me and my son.

[bid]

Have to say, I do share BD's concerns about the consultant's comments.

 

When my youngest went throught the CDC process, it was his paed. who suggested I might benefit from an assessment for AS and she actually started the whole process for me, but this was presented in a very positive way. She certainly didn't tell my DH he was 'brave'...

 

Bid

[isme]

Morning..

I see what you are saying about the consultant, but honestly I don't believe that he meant anything derogatory by the comments, I honestly believe he was trying to be sympathetic.. We had just spent 45 mins talking to ben and his dad and he had been totally lovely towards both of them, especially Ben...

It was only me in the room with him at that time too and I think he was relating to my whole life situation, not just Ben and his dad. He was also relating to the facts that there are two smaller sisters, Marc has severe clinical depression and has done for 10 years + and is only in the last 6 months that anything pro active such as a referral to the CMHT has happened, up till that point I have been on my own dealing with everything. He was also referring to the fact that less than 6 months ago I lost my Dad to a particularly nasty form of cancer, and 3 months prior to that I lost my bil to leukemia (he left behind 2 tiny children and my little sister).

My fault I took his comments out of context, sorry..

 

I think some of the ideas you have all suggested sound brilliant and really easy to put in place.. Hopefully with those in place it will help to work through the behaviours which are not appropriate..

Thanks

[baddad]

Hi again isme

 

Sorry - reading the above I can see now there was a 'bigger picture' here - life certainly has put you through the ringer over the past year or so

That said, I still think it's inappropriate for him to make a 'casual diagnosis' for your husband on the basis of a 45 minute meeting about your son, and I am still confused by the 'high functioning' prefix he's added to your son's diagnosis? What does that mean? High functioning, applied to an autistic person (High Functioning Autism), is typically considered to mean someone with distinct autistic features who had delayed speech, who is otherwise functioning at an intellectual level more usually associated with Asperger's syndrome. I can't for the life of me think what distinction can be made to seperate someone with Asperger's from someone who has 'High Functioning Asperger's' because the only other 'yardstick' left for making that distinction is 'neurotypical', which sort of negates the whole diagnosis in the first place(?)

 

This article from the NAS explains it far more clearly than I can:

 

http://www.nas.org.uk/nas/jsp/polopoly.jsp?d=1049&a=3337

 

Taking the third point they raise - ongoing debate regarding the relevence of seperate diagniosis for High Functioning Autism and Asperger's syndrome - I would, in your position, feel more comfortable with some sort of clarification regarding your son's dx, as it could become a major issue in terms of statmenting/school selection at some later point.

 

Hope that's helpful, and sorry if i got the wrong end of the stick regarding his 'value judgement' comments.

 

L&P

 

BD

[bid]

I am still confused by the 'high functioning' prefix he's added to your son's diagnosis? What does that mean? High functioning, applied to an autistic person (High Functioning Autism), is typically considered to mean someone with distinct autistic features who had delayed speech, who is otherwise functioning at an intellectual level more usually associated with Asperger's syndrome.

 

Just a thought...

 

I have worked with some young people who have AS, but who do have LDs too.

 

Maybe this is the distinction that's trying to be made? Agree it's clumsy, though...

 

Bid

[joanne1]

baddad,

 

Just wondered if you could clear something up for me. What is the difference between HFA and aspergers? I have been wondering about this for a while.

 

Joanne

 

[Karen A]

baddad,

 

Just wondered if you could clear something up for me. What is the difference between HFA and aspergers? I have been wondering about this for a while.

 

Joanne

 

Hi.I can answer for you joanne.Opinions do vary to some extent between professionals.However the general guide is that if a child or adult had a delay in the development of speech and the other criteria for a diagnosis of ASD are met then the professional would diagnose HFA.However if a child or adult developed speech at the usual age or had advanced development of speech and met the other criteria for a diagnosis of ASD then the diagnosis given would probably be Asperger's Syndrome.

In practice the support offered and stategies that are helpful are exactly the same whether the dx is AS or HFA .As I said professionals cannot alawys decide which dx to give. Karen.

 

[rach04]

hi suzi

 

You know all about j. List work very well for us, not for him but for me so i can break things down in to easier parts with timetables for him. As for his aggression it needs to be a there and then punishment i have been know to be found sitting on a pavement cause we are not going anywhere until you have done your time out and then go straight home. J has a goal for morning with a reward and afternoon and evening. I use visual rewards not stars etc as he is working to much to reach the goal even if its a reward for the whole day of good behaviour with stars itms and i change the rewards regually so he doesnt get bored. Im not saying its fool proof cause no kid is an angel but it gives him 3 goals to work for. Btw js bedtime reward is hot chocolate with cream and sprinkles so it doesnt have to be expensive but he LOVES that one lol