Stealing

[Sally44]

Have any other parents had problems with a child on the autistic spectrum stealing things they want from a shop.

This something new and totally unexpected.

What advice is there on how to address this.

Is it worth involving school and speaking with an Educational Psychologist.

[Sally44]

Maybe I should elaborate.

What happened is, we went to our local supermarket Friday night and my son wanted to buy a double DVD of Garfield. I refused.

Background info: we have recently had builders in and all our possessions are in boxes around the house, and we cannot find anything!

On Friday night, my son bought down a Garfield DVD to watch which he said he had found in once of the boxes (and we do have a Garfield DVD somewhere). So he watched it last night.

This morning after breakfast he was upstairs and shouted 'WOW'. When I asked him 'what was it', he said that he had found another Garfield DVD in the packed up boxes.

So now the bells are ringing, because I know we don't have two of them.

But I am also amazed as his ability to bluff eg. show surprise by shouting 'WOW', because he is autistic, not aspergers.

 

So I questioned him and he told me that after I refused to buy the DVD he had hidden it in his coat.

He has then come home and hidden the DVDs in the wardrobe.

He has then had enough ability to know that he can only bring out one at a time without arousing too much suspcicion.

But not enough ability to understand that I would twig after the second video was produced.

 

Obviously the DVDs have been taken from him.

And he has been told that a planned day trip to a theme park is cancelled for this week. But that if he shows good behaviour for the next week that we will go to the theme park. (He isn't too phased by this because he has no sense of what day it is or even what time it is). And he is really mixed ability. He is echolalic and has very poor understanding of language. But he is intelligent enough to know that we he did was wrong. For example he knows about how gravity works and wants to be an astronaut when he gets older (he is 8).

 

So, I know that he knows he shouldn't have done what he did and that it was wrong. He is also impulsive with traits of ADHD. He is aware of his difficulties and is intelligent enough to suggest coping strategies. Eg. when we go into a shop we always talk about whether he can get something or not before hand. Even when that is agreed, when he sees something he wants and I refuse it can lead to a tantrum. He suggested that because 'I can't control the feelings if I go in the shop, I want to stay in the car'. Which suggests to me that he is intelligent enough to suggest a very good way of avoiding his difficulty, as he gets overwhelming feelings that (due to his diagnosis) he cannot bring under control. Because I know he loves to go into the shops to look at the toys so his suggestion of staying in the car is a hard decision for him to make.

 

So, my son has alot of abilities that make him able to understand the basic rights and wrongs of the situation. But he thinks it is rectified just by him being punished and the things taken back to the shops.

 

And I know that children on the spectrum can have difficulties suspending gratification. But he was able to take the DVDs and suspend gratification for long enough for him to produce the DVDs one at a time, thinking he could get away with what he had done.

 

And he did get tearful about it, but his reaction was to say that he needed to leave the house and run away. So all keys are hidden as he has tried to leave before. So he has now painted his body will red spots and has told me that he is very ill. (Taken from the film nanny McPhee).

 

And although I have talked about the police etc, I don't want to talk too much about jail, because I know he would quite like that type of environment. Ie. a small room on his own with a TV.

 

So, I have basically treated the whole event as I would have done for my other child. But is that enough, or do I need to get additional advice? He does have difficulties predicting outcomes. He doesn't recognise danger. We went toboganning on Thursday evening and I went on with him, incase he got frightened half way round and had to be rescued. Infact he was totally the opposite. He didn't use the brakes at all and we went screaming down the hill with me yelling at him to pull on the brakes. He loved it, but we had been going so fast that the attendant told me to make sure he would apply the brakes before they would allow him on again - so it was very fast. And I had to talk with him before we went on again to ensure that he would apply the brakes when I asked him to.

 

So what have other parents done in similar situations?

[Emma_74]

I had a problem with this last year, my son's school it right next door to a supermarket

I'd drop him off and school and he'd pop into the supermarket for sweets - this was before he was dx

 

I caught onto what he was doing and sat down and told him all the usual things you would say but it had no affect at all.

 

So his dad came up with an idea. He told him that he had taken a picture of him to all the shops in the area and that if they saw him they were not allowed to let him into the shop.

 

This has worked wonders!! He knows he is allowed into the shops if one of us is there but not on his own.

 

hope this helps

[purplehaze]

I have had similar problems with my son who is ASD 15yrs.

 

A few years ago someone broke a teachers bike lock and my son sure the bike (obsessed with bikes) lying on the ground and thought it was ok to take. Also he once picked up someones shopping thinking it didn't belong to anybody. He still doesn't understand that he shouldn't touch things that are not his even when nobody is there.

 

It is a difficult situation but maybe a social story could help?????

[Kazzen161]

You say that he thinks if he takes the things back and says sorry that it is Ok, but then:

 

>>And he has been told that a planned day trip to a theme park is cancelled for this week. But that if he shows good behaviour for the next week that we will go to the theme park>>

 

The way this is worded, it is giving confused messages - it is not a punishment, just deferred reward. He will still get to go to the park (and as he has no idea of what day is what, will he see it as a punishment?)

 

It would be good if you could take away something that really matters (no computer time for one week?? and keep reminding him why). He needs to realise that he has done something very wrong. If he is still stealing at 10 or 20, shops will not be so understanding.

 

You could make him take the things back to the shop, if you are reasonably confident they would just give him a stern telling off. You could contact the community policeman, and ask him to have a stern word with him. You coud set it up, so that you take your son in to "confess".

 

You need to scare him enough, but not too much - lol!

 

My son had exactly the same problem with having to buy something if he went in a shop, and he came to the same conclusion - it was better not to go in a shop if he had no money.

[baddad]

You say that he thinks if he takes the things back and says sorry that it is Ok, but then:

 

>>And he has been told that a planned day trip to a theme park is cancelled for this week. But that if he shows good behaviour for the next week that we will go to the theme park>>

 

The way this is worded, it is giving confused messages - it is not a punishment, just deferred reward. He will still get to go to the park (and as he has no idea of what day is what, will he see it as a punishment?)

 

It would be good if you could take away something that really matters (no computer time for one week?? and keep reminding him why). He needs to realise that he has done something very wrong. If he is still stealing at 10 or 20, shops will not be so understanding.

 

You could make him take the things back to the shop, if you are reasonably confident they would just give him a stern telling off. You could contact the community policeman, and ask him to have a stern word with him. You coud set it up, so that you take your son in to "confess".

 

You need to scare him enough, but not too much - lol!

 

My son had exactly the same problem with having to buy something if he went in a shop, and he came to the same conclusion - it was better not to go in a shop if he had no money.

 

Wise words - exactly what i thought on reading your post (so must be wise! )... One other thing i was going to mention was your thought about discussing with school...

I think this depends on whether you feel this was/will be a 'one off' or whether you think it might recur or become a problem at school(?). If the former I'd keep it in the home for now, as it's unlikely the school would have any specific strategies/advice that you couldn't get elsewhere. If you think this is something that could creep into school, then it might be useful to mention it if you feel confident that they would handle it appropriately.

 

hope that helps.

 

L&P

 

BD

[pookie170]

Y

You could make him take the things back to the shop, if you are reasonably confident they would just give him a stern telling off. You could contact the community policeman, and ask him to have a stern word with him. You coud set it up, so that you take your son in to "confess".

 

You need to scare him enough, but not too much - lol!

 

I agree that this is a really good idea. Your son will physically see that the DVDs are going back and that he cannot keep items gained through stealing- its the most vivid and easily understandable way to get that point across to him. I think combining that with a social story might be a good idea. This is what I did with my own son, when he stole a sweetie and yes, he was a bit shaken by the experience, but it definitely taught him a lesson.

You have to bear in mind though, that they may well ask for payment instead of taking the DVDs back, as they've been opened and played. If this was my son, I would make him pay for it out of his own money.

Obviously, I don't know your son, but this has worked with mine.....

Its not a nice thing to have to deal with and I sympathise deeply!

 

Esther x

 

[Sally44]

Thanks for the advice so far.

I don't think he would be able to cope with being taken into the shop and have to see the manager face to face for example. He doesn't follow language well, so he wouldn't process anything said to him at that time.

The reason I deferred the theme park trip was because (a) we have another child who we have promised to take, and ( he knows I am watching him for good behaviour and that he has to earn it within a week.

He asked me today about getting new DVDs - that is his only obsession - and I said no because of what he had done.

I have brought it up a couple of times today to keep checking he understands eg. can you take things from shops, what will happen if you take something, would you like someone to steal your toys etc - and he is giving me the right answers.

I suppose I will have to be extra vigilant.

At his old school they did let him take things home with him, but I was not happy with this because it was a case of I would occasionally find something in his pocket and ask school about it, and they would say it's okay for him to have it and bring it back in a couple of days. But I think my fears were grounded because they weren't interested in the implications of this and they never worked out a way that he had to ask for it first.

I haven't had any similar experiences since I moved him to another school. The only behaviour he has which I think is related, is that when he sees something when out with the family, if I try to move him on from it he can suddenly disappear and he will have gone back to look at the thing in question. I have lost him on many occasions when out and about. And I have raised my concerns with school about this because if he wants to disappear he will achieve it.

When I was a child there was a whole craze of children shoplifting and for a time I did it to. But it is something that alot of children do and grow out of. For those on the spectrum they don't come with a manual. And although they may get alot of it, what do you do if you suspect that certain aspects of the implications or social side of it they just don't get.

My husband went back to the shop and paid for the DVDs. I don't think I would have done that myself. It is a small village and now they know who he is. And I can cope with the label of ASD, but the label of thief seems much worse to me - and people do gossip.

Anyway, I think i'll just monitor it. If it happens again then all hell will break loose and I will do something to scare him to death. I know that I could tell him that if he steals again he would have to have an injection to stop him stealing and I know that would solve the problem. But is it right to use their fears to control them?

[pookie170]

I don't think it would be. What if he does steal again- the threatened injection wouldn't happen and he'd know it had been a fib on your part.

And I suppose,another negative effect is that the threat would strengthen his fear of injections, making it even worse for him the next time he must have one.....IYKWIM?

I know what you mean, though.....

 

[Kazzen161]

>>The reason I deferred the theme park trip was because (a) we have another child who we have promised to take, and ( he knows I am watching him for good behaviour and that he has to earn it within a week.>>

 

It would probably have been better to have chosen a different punishment then - to make the message very clear, that you miss out when you steal things.

 

Being good for a week does not make up for the stealing. Not getting any DVDs is another punishment for the same thing. How long is he not getting any more DVDs for? A day? A week? A month?

 

One thing to think about is: does he know what constitutes "good" and "bad" behaviour? You have to be very specific.

Telling the truth is good - stealing is bad.

 

Does he get any pocket money or earn any tokens that he can then use to buy things. Amazingly, my son often decided he did not "need" that pond pump that he was so desperate for, once he knew it was up to him whether to spend his money on it or not.

 

No, do not tell him he will have to have an injection - he would soon discover that that was not true, and would not believe you in future.

[Sally44]

He doesn't get pocket money because he has no concept of it. He has dyscalculia as well as dyslexia. Giving him pocket money only caused more problems because he couldn't understand what was 'enough' money for the things he wanted. And I don't use tokens either because his choice of a reward is way too expensive because again he has no concept of money, so giving him a token scheme where he can choose a reward that is worth up to �10 doesn't mean anything to him and causes more problems when I am trying to explain to him what is within his price range. So we stopped doing anything like that.

We have just started with him earning money for jobs he does or helping around the house, and he has said he is 'saving' for a lego kit he wants. But the one he wants is �160+. He has no concept of how long he will have to save for this, and there is no point me trying to re-direct him to another cheaper model. He definately knows the one he wants, and he is saving for it, and it could go either way. He could continue saving and reach his target (because he also has no concept of time). Or he could suddenly announce that enough 'time' has passed according to him and that now he should be able to get his lego kit (regardless of how much money he has saved). He has asked me how many minutes it will be until he gets it, which explains how he doesn't understand either time or counting money.

I don't know if removing the theme park visit is such a wrong move considering how I know my son thinks (or doesnt think). He has no concept of what a week is. He just knows that it isn't going to happen because he has been bad, and that it won't happen until I tell him that it is going to happen again. And he has to be good until I say it will happen. It really wouldn't make any difference if it was delayed for a day or a year. He doesn't understand the passage of time or days/weeks/months. Only 'is it on this day'. And if it isn't on this day I have to show him how many fingers it is until it happens. But the fingers might represent hours, minutes, days, weeks etc - but he doesn't know what the difference is between a minute or a year.

If it happens again I think we'll have to visit the police station. But I really don't know how that could go. He might be really scared and it worked a treat. Or there might be something he really liked about the police station which might actually reinforce bad behaviour.

I think i'll just sit tight for the moment and mull it over for the next couple of weeks.

[baddad]

He doesn't get pocket money because he has no concept of it. He has dyscalculia as well as dyslexia. Giving him pocket money only caused more problems because he couldn't understand what was 'enough' money for the things he wanted. And I don't use tokens either because his choice of a reward is way too expensive because again he has no concept of money, so giving him a token scheme where he can choose a reward that is worth up to �10 doesn't mean anything to him and causes more problems when I am trying to explain to him what is within his price range. So we stopped doing anything like that.

We have just started with him earning money for jobs he does or helping around the house, and he has said he is 'saving' for a lego kit he wants. But the one he wants is �160+. He has no concept of how long he will have to save for this, and there is no point me trying to re-direct him to another cheaper model. He definately knows the one he wants, and he is saving for it, and it could go either way. He could continue saving and reach his target (because he also has no concept of time). Or he could suddenly announce that enough 'time' has passed according to him and that now he should be able to get his lego kit (regardless of how much money he has saved). He has asked me how many minutes it will be until he gets it, which explains how he doesn't understand either time or counting money.

I don't know if removing the theme park visit is such a wrong move considering how I know my son thinks (or doesnt think). He has no concept of what a week is. He just knows that it isn't going to happen because he has been bad, and that it won't happen until I tell him that it is going to happen again. And he has to be good until I say it will happen. It really wouldn't make any difference if it was delayed for a day or a year. He doesn't understand the passage of time or days/weeks/months. Only 'is it on this day'. And if it isn't on this day I have to show him how many fingers it is until it happens. But the fingers might represent hours, minutes, days, weeks etc - but he doesn't know what the difference is between a minute or a year.

If it happens again I think we'll have to visit the police station. But I really don't know how that could go. He might be really scared and it worked a treat. Or there might be something he really liked about the police station which might actually reinforce bad behaviour.

I think i'll just sit tight for the moment and mull it over for the next couple of weeks.

 

Hi sally

 

I hope you don't take offence at this, but looking at the above I'm not sure how anyone can respond to your request for advice...

The thing is, everything you say suggests that the sanctions you've imposed don't actually have any meaning for your son, but you've not got any 'immediate' sanctions that you can or would impose either. the theme park sanction isn't a sanction at all, firstly because you've already told him you're likely to 'lift' it, and secondly because - whatever his behaviour over the next week - it seems unlikely you will 'punish' your other son with a cancelled trip for no good reason, and if you take him you have no contingency plan for not taking the son who you are threatening with the sanction(?)

Obviously, I do not know your son at all so can't possibly comment on the things you've said he doesn't understand, but TBH it does seem at odds with the degree of subterfuge he has demonstrated with the DVD's and with stealing etc. While fully accepting that you don't think the suggestions you've received offer the 'right' solution, what are your thoughts about what you can do? While I can understand (and agree on) your trepidation about involving the police, and i've already said i don't think the school necessarily need to be involved at this point, what do you think you can do - without the aid of third parties/outside agencies - to get the message across? Ultimately, the decision of wheher you do or don't and how you sanction your son has to be yours, but if you don't - or you do so in a way that has no real meaning for him - he cannot learn from the sanction.

 

Hope that makes sense

 

L&P

 

BD

[bid]

Do you use a visual timetable with your son, Sally?

 

They really do work with regard to placing yourself within timescales...I have huge problems with this myself, which is one of the reasons that even as an adult I have a monthly timetable on display.

 

I work with young people with profound learning difficulties. It is possible to use sanctions/rewards effectively but everything has to be very visual. Maybe this is where things aren't working with your son...perhaps things are too nebulous and not concrete enough? I would agree with other posters about the confusion over the theme park. You say it doesn't matter about the theme park as a sanction because he doesn't understand timescales...but if you had a visual timetable where the days are crossed off/covered he would see the timescale as you have said he responds to counting on fingers.

 

Apologies if you are already using visual timetables, etc.

 

Bid

Edited April 5, 2009 by bid

[Sally44]

Yes we do use a visual timetable.

And yes my son does show a very considerable difference in abilities ie. I agree that he used a huge level of subtefuge to take the DVD. But I think bid understands the problem with someone who has absolutely no concept of time. The punishments we dole out to our children are in proportion to the crime in terms of size and timeframe. When you have a child with no conceptual ability of timeframe you have to work with what you have got.

And this wide range in skills is part of the reason we ended up at tribunal because in some areas (as assessed by Ed Psych) he is on a percentile of 93+, which is at the top of any class. In other areas he is <1 percentile.

So he has been punished by not going to the theme park. My son has been going on about it for a long time (there are TV adverts throughout the day on TV). So he has been punished in that way of losing something he wanted. The timeframe element of punishment is difficult, because as I said, he has no concept of time at all. He doesn't even get yesterday, today and tomorrow.

And the reason I also used the theme park was that he asked straight away if he would be allowed to go to the theme park. So he does understand that what he did was wrong and that he will lose something because of it, and that was the thing he most wanted at that time, so that is what I used as the sanction. I do think that is a punishment that he feels and he definately understands that he has lost that trip because of stealing.

Presently we use a daily timetable. I think i'll look into a longer one as that would be more concrete in terms of what is happening when.

TBH I was more concerned about why he had thought it was okay to take it. He has said he just wanted it. So I have talked with him about how everyone wants things. But just because you want it doesn't mean you can have it.

I will use Social Stories as well.

I was just shocked at the time that he had even done it.

Thanks for everyones input.

 

[bid]

Presently we use a daily timetable. I think i'll look into a longer one as that would be more concrete in terms of what is happening when.

 

What about a weekly timetable, with a separate card for that day's activities?...I found longer ones very useful in school holidays where the structure of school had disappeared.

 

One thought about problems with time. In my head I have no 'picture' of today, tomorrow, this week, etc...it's just a sort of vacuum (shut up BD, I heard that! ). I can only have a concrete idea of time when I see it written down as a calendar.

 

I think an important point is that I have always been like this, and I don't think it's going to be something I will ever be able to learn to 'do'. But with my timetable, I can function perfectly well.

 

Just had another thought about the stealing. As autism is a developmental disorder, I would approach the question of stealing as you would with a chronologically younger child. You wouldn't go into a lot of explanation, etc, you tend to have a more simple, direct approach which you repeat. With a younger child you work on stealing just beng something we don't do...understanding, etc, comes later.

 

Hope some of that might be helpful.

 

Bid

Edited April 5, 2009 by bid

[isme]

We had a student at school who didn't "get" the yesterday, today, tomorrow thing.. Again we had a weekly timetable that they could work with and it helped enormously..

Again with the stealing I would copy Bid's thoughts tbh, just very short and straight to the point..

 

Good luck

[Kazzen161]

With a younger child you work on stealing just beng something we don't do...understanding, etc, comes later.

 

I agree with this.

 

Re: the token system. I made a shopping list, listing different things and their "cost", so eg: he could "buy" a set of cards for 5 tokens, or save up and buy a model for 15 tokens.